Melty Bread Forums
Misaki Town Bakery => Ciel's Tech Support => : Funky-kun December 07, 2010, 08:04:10 AM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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How do you do this mad science (http://boonce.org/up/IMG00115-20101204-1225.jpg)?
Adapter? (http://www.amazon.com/Playstation-Mouse-Keyboard-Adapter-Games-2/dp/B000C4CHNM)
Or soldering/desoldering with an actual PS2 controller?
Does anyone have info on Mad Scientist? Forum profile or email?
This is vastly relevant to my interests, I recently got a beginners stick, and while I do well in SF4, playing MBAA on it is beyond my abilities. :-\
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He let me borrow it for a couple matches.
It seems to have the keys set up to a pressure sensor that he wired through the circuit-board of a PS2 controller (buttons were removed and taped over with electrical tape.)
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If you want something a little more badass looking, I might take a request for a Keystick.
It doesn't have the same close feel as an actual keyboard, but it's pretty usable. No messy configuration either.
I know I posted this before somewhere, but here is the picture:
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/324/8153img3402.jpg)
This box came out pretty bad but I'd make you a far better looking one (this was a gift so I wasn't going to make anything professional looking, though money would certainly motivate me otherwise). The art I think was fine though. The ironic part is the start and select button are sanwa's (The Japanese standard for Arcade-stick high quality buttons).
The keys I use are mechanical, so it's pretty highquality. Way better than your plastic sensors in most keyboards.
That being said, I highly recommend you just learn stick. Very few people these days (except maybe Chibi) "learned stick" just because they played in arcade. They made the choice to set back their execution for a couple months to learn it, and it wasn't easy to start. But if you really want it I can be paid to do it because I'm lacking money these days. PM me if that's the case. What's also been done is people like "arcade buttons" but not the stick itself. So they just get all arcade buttons, including a PC-Style setup 4 arcade buttons (generally sanwa). Just so it's organized/looks like a keyboard, but are big arcade buttons. I can do that as well, if it sounds more appealing. If both you and Shadow want one, it'd definitely be easier me to bulk order parts. I could also do different layouts, if you would prefer that as well.
The standard would be PS2/PC compatible (though lol if it's PC compatible why not just use your keyboard). I could look into the possibility of doing other systems as well, though.
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I basically removed everything in the keyboard, and then mounted micro-switches underneath the keys I needed.
Soldering and wiring is pretty straight forward, you just need a lot of wire.
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Soldering? Micro-switches? English please.
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I basically removed everything in the keyboard, and then mounted micro-switches underneath the keys I needed.
Soldering and wiring is pretty straight forward, you just need a lot of wire.
Yooooooooooooooooooo GHETTO
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Thanks for the info, Scientist & Komidol. I'll give this a thought during the winter break, as I won't be in the US. When I'm back I'll contact you, Komidol, if I'm set on something.
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To play MBAA (or any PS2 game) in Playstation2 with keyboard, you need this converter: PS2 Max Shooter (http://www.jeux-et-console.com/images/max-shooter-ps2.jpg).
I myself playing MBAA in keyboard with some of my friends. The only other European keyboard user Melty player I know is PanicAttack if I remember correctly (He uses G-15 Logitech keyboard I think).
Relunx
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If you want something a little more badass looking, I might take a request for a Keystick.
since i have seen some front pages articles in srk like those
http://shoryuken.com/content/keyboard-arcade-stick-hybrid-why-choose-between-two-things-you-love-1749/ (http://shoryuken.com/content/keyboard-arcade-stick-hybrid-why-choose-between-two-things-you-love-1749/)
http://shoryuken.com/content/hit-box-stickless-arcade-stick-2675/ (http://shoryuken.com/content/hit-box-stickless-arcade-stick-2675/)
i have thinked about buying one. When i have some money i will try to contact you.
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Oh you can do the poverty (http://npshare.de/files/1c17544a/RowansRoom2.jpg) version, too. Kudos to real.
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PS2 Max Shooter
Does it really work well? Damn, I've been dreaming about something like that for quite a long time :3
Komidol
What kind of pcb would you use for an arcade kb? chtulhu? Is it a good idea to use a ps2 pad pcb if I also want some ps3 and pc support?
ps: here's my failed attempt to make a hybrid with 2009's non common ground mayflash pcb
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4384/renstickv0611.jpg
pps: 18mm sanwas weren't a good choice...
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I'd love to see this mod but with one of those old school IBM model m keyboards. ;D
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PS2 Max Shooter works fine. I played thousands of matches and so far and had no problem with it.
Only one minor problem I came across with it. Very rarely one of the direction buttons (up, down, left, right) will "stuck" and you have to press it again to gain control normally again. I'm playing with PS2 Max shooter like half a year and got this problem 3 times.
Relunx
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PS2 Max Shooter
Does it really work well? Damn, I've been dreaming about something like that for quite a long time :3
Komidol
What kind of pcb would you use for an arcade kb? chtulhu? Is it a good idea to use a ps2 pad pcb if I also want some ps3 and pc support?
ps: here's my failed attempt to make a hybrid with 2009's non common ground mayflash pcb
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4384/renstickv0611.jpg
pps: 18mm sanwas weren't a good choice...
I'm actually very fond of the mayflash mod - my main stick uses this (it was my first mod, which I have to thank Rayza for walking me through back in the day). If I were to use it for a KB mod...that sounds interesting, and though I love the mayflash - it's too troublesome for that sort of venture. For easy PS2/PS3/USBPC support the Cthulu PCB is the way to go. The mayflash PCB has wires that you can cut directly to the microswitches of a joystick already built in, but if you want more wire/space for keyboard keys you'll need to wire in the directional buttons directly. It's a bit annoying to work with and of course you can't get ps3 support with it easily.
I would recommend (the problem I have, as I suck at wood working and order my boxes from someone else - as my first box was terrible as seen above) is getting a custom box for the buttons so it can have a keyboardish feel and use an MCCthulu mount inside of it (It's pretty easy since the MCthulu has screw holes). You'll also have to update the firmware of the MCthulu or you may wind up with some detection errors which will wind up making your stick a little tsundere (you may have to plug in and out of your ps2 a few times to get it to work if you don't update the firmware). Otherwise it's perfectly fine. You'll need to get a multimeter and slash either a ps2 extension cable or a ps2 controller wire so you can add Ps2 support to the MCthulu, and I'd only recommend doing this if you're really comfortable soldering. You'll need a multimeter to test the lines from the ps2 cable so you know what data entries to solder onto the Cthulu. The PS3/PC support comes native - you'll just need a USB cable coming from the Cthulu itself, which you don't even need to solder, just plug in any old printer cable or usb female to male extender and you're golden - that's the easy part.
If you use the mayflash you can get ps2 support native but you can't add PS3 support to it without another pcb to my knowledge, and it's a messy job to add ps3 support (I wouldn't even try to do this my self). Adding Keyboard keys isn't much different than adding actual buttons, the above is just a matter of what kind of console support you want.
I'd love to see this mod but with one of those old school IBM model m keyboards. ;D
I use mechanical switches in my keysticks, so they're extremely durable and responsive. Much more so than the crappy plastic lining-electronic board most keyboards have today. You can rest assure you can still get that old hard-keyboard key feeling.
Also rowanism that little keyboard key box is pretty neat lookin.
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PS2 Max Shooter works fine. I played thousands of matches and so far and had no problem with it.
Only one minor problem I came across with it. Very rarely one of the direction buttons (up, down, left, right) will "stuck" and you have to press it again to gain control normally again. I'm playing with PS2 Max shooter like half a year and got this problem 3 times.
Relunx
How does the mapping of the buttons work? How do you adjust which of the buttons (O, X, R1, etc.) correspond to the keys on the keyboard?
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I will be attempting this after school ends this week. I will worklog it either here or on SRK.
~M
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How does the mapping of the buttons work? How do you adjust which of the buttons (O, X, R1, etc.) correspond to the keys on the keyboard?
There's a manual, which explains it. There are some already stored presets for various games which you can load via Alt+F1-F8. And you can save your own preset by pressing ESC+F1-F11. To configure/adjust buttons is very simple: Hold down ESC then press the control key and then press the destination key (while still holding ESC). The control keys are the default setting that the converter has (there's a picture in the manual that shows the default keys). The PS2 Max Shooter manual (http://psx-scene.com/forums/431859-post59.html) can be found in PDF form in the internet.
The PS2 Max Shooter itself stores all the saved presets. Doesn't matter how many/different PS2 console you pluged into or what keyboard you attached to it, the Presets will remain unless you overwrite it OR reset to default.
Relunx
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This thing sounds like the real deal! Thanks for the info. If I don't manage to overcome the stick, this will have to be my go-to solution.
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Rowan, how could be possible using your keyboard buttons to make this custom one?
Microswitches? Soldering?
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Don't ask me. Ask the guy who made it for me (http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=504), muchacho.
An there are no keys inside the box, but cigars.
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The keyboard to PS3/Xbox 360 project is proceeding. Worklog will follow soon.
~M
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I'm in the process of wiring mine up. After that, all that's left is to get used to it.
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This Max Shooter really works well? I'm almost buying it... But I'm still not sure.
Does it allow choosing the keys you'll want to use?
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This Max Shooter really works well? I'm almost buying it... But I'm still not sure.
Does it allow choosing the keys you'll want to use?
Yes it works (I'm using it too). And yes it allows you to choose whatever keys you want to use.
Relunx
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Thank you a lot man. This info is godlike. We're going to have a tourney in Brazil, but most of the players are keyboard users, and playing in the emulator = bad input delay ç.ç. So it's like you saved the day for us xD with this info. I'll buy this right now.
+HEAT
This is the product, right? http://www.emumaniacos.com.br/mercadolivre/max2-2.jpg
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(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2682/94452865.png)
So, per the manual, if I want to make P = Circle, should I hold ESC and press B, then P? (Assuming I'm in standard setup)
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This is the product, right? http://www.emumaniacos.com.br/mercadolivre/max2-2.jpg
Yes. That is the product.
So, per the manual, if I want to make P = Circle, should I hold ESC and press B, then P? (Assuming I'm in standard setup)
Yes.
Relunx
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My Keystick is almost physically done. Let's hope I did the wiring right and it works.
I'll be bringing it to GVN singles working or not.
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Two year old bump, but here comes another aspiring keystick player.
I've been playing keyboard for nearly 5 years now (combination of soku and melty). I also play PS3 pad for P4A and BB. However, my technical proficiency is far better with a keyboard than pad and I don't really want to learn stick (yes, I've seen that transitioning to stick thread). That and a combination with that I'm going to EVO this year and I want to be able to focus on bigger things than basic inputs on stick.
Is there any new information regarding this kind of build now (PS3 / PS2 preferred but I can always get another X360 converter)? Anyone I can contact?
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Tech talk on srk. You can find modders who can do it for $ or, potentially, guides to do it yourself.
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ADANA MORT!
So I want to make a professional looking controller for playing on all platforms with mechanical keyboard keys so I wont ever worry about anything anymore about platforms and compability and still play in a decent controller. Halp? Mad Sci?
I basically removed everything in the keyboard, and then mounted micro-switches underneath the keys I needed.
Soldering and wiring is pretty straight forward, you just need a lot of wire.
Let me see if I understand, step by step, no, really, I'm dumb when it comes to this kind of stuff...
1st step = get a keyboard; 2nd step = remove all you're not using; 3rd step = get a PCB board; 4th step = microswitch under the keys? how? it affects the pressing sensation?; 5th step = connect the microswitch to the PCB board? 6th step = ??, 7th step = profit? More info/instructions on this would be really appreciated. I don't even know how microswitching works, but that much I can find out, but the rest I even talked to people who make arcades here, they don't know how to do it.
You could make it for sale man via order man =x, people would order. That kind of technology is interesting even for fps players and other gamers who like keyboard better and no one I know does it so far. Max shooter imho has delay input and is very complicated to set AND it has limited compatibility, only PS3, only XBOX, etc...
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Just look up a hitbox. Same basic concept.
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hitbox has some critical flaws: buttons, buttons are way too sensitive, buttons are way too far, diretionals are on the left, buttons are way too big, buttons are ugly, hitboxes have a (lame) pre-determined config (not customizable via order), hitboxes are bad looking (to me), jump on big toe, wtf?
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Wouldn't the biggest issue be finding a keyboard with enough height clearance to even stick a custom PCB in? The rest seems simple enough, especially if mechanical keys are used (because microswitches are super EZ modo and rubber contacts aren't).
I don't know, is that it? How did Mad Sci got past it?
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I dunno, it didn't look especially bulky to me. Send a Tweet at him (@MadscientistCC) or something.
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hitbox has some critical flaws: buttons, buttons are way too sensitive, buttons are way too far, diretionals are on the left, buttons are way too big, buttons are ugly, hitboxes have a (lame) pre-determined config (not customizable via order), hitboxes are bad looking (to me), jump on big toe, wtf?
I just meant copy the concept. I wasn't saying to actually order a hitbox -- you could probably make one a lot cheaper -- but seriously, you could probably buy some smaller, less sensitive buttons (24mm seimitsu?), shove them all into whatever you have laying around for a case, wire 'em to a PCB, and call it a day.
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I just meant copy the concept. I wasn't saying to actually order a hitbox -- you could probably make one a lot cheaper -- but seriously, you could probably buy some smaller, less sensitive buttons (24mm seimitsu?), shove them all into whatever you have laying around for a case, wire 'em to a PCB, and call it a day.
I initially though of that too, but buttons are way too strange for me, even the smaller possible buttons (Inso uses them) are too big and stay too far. And they are just awkward to press on. Sanwa is total shit (to me), Seimitsu is a little better, but still can't compare to a key of a mechanical keyboard or even a normal keyboard, which I'm so much more used since I use PC all the time, so I think it's worth trying a little more and spending the double.
I think what he did was clear the numpad area, maybe sand it down a bit, and place the PS1 PCB there. Then I think he either custom-made or ordered a plexi/acrylic cover for the numpad area to make sure the PCB stayed in place and no dust gets in or w/e.
Depending on what PCB you use, you'd have to adjust slightly...by a few mm at most but still...like the PS1 PCB is a lot slimmer, especially if you solder directly onto the main board and not the rubber contact daughterboard, but the PS360 PCB is a bit thicker, especially since it has screw terminals and Type-B USB and RJ-45 ports.
There's actually another problem I think you *MIGHT* have:
Different PCBs interpret opposite inputs in different ways. I'm not sure if you have to buy a SOCD Cleaner and install that alongside with your PCB of choice or not. Keyboard players sometimes talk about using tricks with conflicting inputs (normally not possible on stick like 8+2 and 4+6) to execute things easier, but if your PCB doesn't interpret it the way you're used to (pulling an example out of my ass, but say you press 4+6 and usually you expect 4+6 directionals to equal 6 only, but PCB A interprets 4+6 as 5) then you may have problems. I dunno.
EDIT: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/181524/ps360-modded-into-a-mechanical-keyboard-problems-with-keyboard-specific-movement
Thanks for the advice and the link, I'll have all that in mind from now on. I wonder what Mad Sci did to get over it too, I'll ask him on twitter about it. I'm used with 4+6 = 4, so I should not buy a SOCD Cleaner. Just one ore thing, the PCB ps360+ is not compatible with new gen, is it? Maybe I should wait a little more to buy the PCB and do the rest later since I'll have to adapt the box to the size of the board and etc.
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Most of the pcbs you buy from within the community are going to support SOCD by default (Newer Toodles firmwares, the PS360+, I'm pretty sure the Cerberus too, I never tested it).
I've always sorta wanted to wire up a keyboard for fgs, but I have no use for it means I play on stick :nyoro:
With a bit of time and a dremel you can make pcbs pretty tiny.
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Dremels are pretty cool.
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So I took some pics of the inside of my keyboard, hope it helps:
http://imgur.com/CnsrQsd,ceS8rTP,LGndfAD,Zdq51UI#0
http://imgur.com/CnsrQsd,ceS8rTP,LGndfAD,Zdq51UI#1
http://imgur.com/CnsrQsd,ceS8rTP,LGndfAD,Zdq51UI#2
http://imgur.com/CnsrQsd,ceS8rTP,LGndfAD,Zdq51UI#3
Like Butterfree said, I cut out the numpad area for the PCB. I didn't even use plexi, it's just a piece of plastic.
For simultaneous left+right (or up+down), the PS2 pad PCB I used registers as neutral.
Figuring out how to mount the tiny switches was the trickiest part. After a couple years of use,
I ended up just hot-gluing them, because a few of the solder points would break after months of use.
Since I removed all the rubber pads, the keyboard keys directly hit the micro-switches, with some padding.
I got used to the feeling of it, but anyone else might want to keep the rubber pads, or get different switches.
This is the micro-switch I used: http://is.gd/S3Xuza, it seems to be pretty durable despite the size.
Also all the wires are hidden underneath the plastic sheet with holes that came with the keyboard.
So I'd rather not try selling another keyboard like this, because mine is pretty much a hack job.
It took me two revisions and a few days combined to get right. And also I needed to repair a few of the solder points several times.
Sorry for the wall text, I kind of just brain-dumped.
Hopefully this helps people who want to do something similar, and I can always give advice.
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Dealing with a mechanical keyboard seems like a lot less work. Lol
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4
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Your wall of text is very apreciated! Thank you Mad, I'll see what I can do here now!
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Right now I'm choosing what keyboard to use. It will be a mechanical one, I still didnt decide if I'll get standard Stellseries 6Gv2 or a fancy luminous Ducky Shine Zero. The question is, the keyboard will stop working as a keyboard, right? All the luminous stuff and inputs for headphone and etc wont be of any use, right? If yes I'll probably go with the Steelseries since it's cheaper. However if the lights and all the other stuff work I'll with the ducky shine. I think red might be the best switch color, but brown seems to be good too.
(http://puu.sh/4pwov.png)
The steelseries: http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-6Gv2-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard/dp/B0038X3ZVM/ref=sr_1_19?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1379005354&sr=1-19&keywords=mechanical+keyboard
The ducky shine: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducky-DK2108S-Shine-Zero-Mechanical-keyboard-Cherry-MX-Red-switch-W-Blue-LED-/300938625770?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item46115702ea
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Blacks you have to really press it hard, though. Can't just lightly tap it.
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Sanwas and the like don't have a tactile response that corresponds to when they actually engage, though. I know my button triggers long before it's completely depressed, which I consider a good thing, since it means the button triggers faster relative to when I make the motion.
I also imagine that the tactile response means that you'd feel force (pushback) trying to press the key down, as opposed to a stick button, which just goes down smoothly as you apply force. I know the tactile keyboard I'm using right now has a threshold I have to cross, then the button engages and goes down. Basically, the tactile buttons will have two states, depressed and not depressed, whereas the linear buttons will just press down with no resistance and trigger. I imagine the linear button press would feel like it responds more quickly, since there's no need to cross a certain threshold of force to get the key to depress.
...I hope that made sense.
EDIT: Also, I think what you feel as the response of your stick buttons is actually the "bottom out" force point, when they won't engage anymore, which doesn't correspond to when your button press actually registers.
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If you have not used mechanical keyboard switches before, it will take time getting used to. The biggest advantage vs. rubber dome is they activate at an exact point, and are thus more reliable.
Compared to stick buttons, they have a lot more travel, but actually activate at about the same depth a stick button does. However, you have more free space to press after that, which usually you go through.
I have tried Blues, and would not recommend them. The problem is (apart from being really loud) that the tactile point is not the same in both directions of the key press. That is, you have to pull the key higher up than the point at which it activated to get it to activate again. Not ideal when you want really fast inputs. Maybe looking at this will make more sense: http://cdn.overclock.net/8/88/900x900px-LL-8846736e_785448034edc7cebb9ea660c5f11e288.jpeg
I game on Browns. They felt good coming from a flat rubber dome keyboard. The reset point is the same as the activation point, in contrast to blues ( http://peterhallam.com.au/wp-content/uploads/cherry-mx-brown-force-diagram.jpg ). While playing Melty, the tactile point is not really felt, as you're bottoming the key out with force anyway. Feels good for typing though. A lot of RTS progamers use them.
I haven't tried Reds and Blacks, but would expect that Reds would be a good fit for fighting games, as they're lighter to press. They activate at the same depth as Browns, so there wouldn't be a lot of difference when mashing. :D If you like the pressure though, maybe Blacks are for you. I haven't tried them, I expect using them for a while to become exhausting on the fingers.
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So I decided to go with reds! A friend of mine brought a mechanical keyboard to Heaven or Hell 2013 and let me test it. It felt absolutely amazing, however I didn't know until today what color was that. He told me today it was red. Because of that I can assure reds are the best for fighting games. Let me explain why if anyone's interested:
It's not hard to press, yes, but it's not critically sensible: you need to push 2 milimeters to activate while in sanwa 0.5 milimeters would have activated it already I guess (I don't know actually), but I tested it to play Melty in that day and everything went just perfect. The feeling of using it is almost addicting and it's not too sensitive or too hard. In fighting games the more sensitive the better I guess unless it will activate when you don't want like Sanwa do to me, but that don't happen with reds, so it's perfect. Tactile is good too, but I guess you may lose a little bit o speed using them, so reds are the best.
I decided to go with the steelseries 6Gv2 since it's heavier, more resistant and more beautiful to me (since lights wont work) but I'm still clearing some doubts. It seems steelseries keycaps gets worn too fast, I don't know, but I'll have a lot of spare keycaps to use so it really doesnt matter much. The funny thing is that I'll end up ordering the same keyboard, same model and same color my friend did.
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I finally finished what I had been dreaming about for quite a while...
http://imageshack.us/a/img14/218/jm4x.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/9073/p5bs.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/4553/3tey.jpg
I totally love 24mm seimitsus, they're way better than cheap kbs I've been playing. Good luck with your kb mod though. Hopefully, I'll also get a decent mechanical kb someday :3
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I finally finished what I had been dreaming about for quite a while...
http://imageshack.us/a/img14/218/jm4x.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/9073/p5bs.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/4553/3tey.jpg
I totally love 24mm seimitsus, they're way better than cheap kbs I've been playing. Good luck with your kb mod though. Hopefully, I'll also get a decent mechanical kb someday :3
Good stuff man, how are you doing with it?
Today I got my kb, now all that's left is the pcb and modding, one step at a time! btw iPhone camera sucks! Here's a review some guy made for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZXerYm8ETU
(http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o743/Cristuu/1970-01-25030458_zps21a43712.jpg)
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Good stuff man, how are you doing with it?
Doing well, so well I built another one with the same layout lol
http://s10.postimg.org/yjbqyfjuf/black_limba_kbox.jpg
The wide wooden case is amazing for lap play.
I'm also a bit curious about gamer finger buttons that use cherry micro switches since you can use the blue and brown switches with the tactile feel.
They currently don't have clear 24mm buttons and are quite expensive though, so I'll probably stick with seimitsus for a while.