Melty Bread Forums

Atlas Academy => Melty Blood: Current Code => Ciel => : AARP|ZTB August 02, 2010, 02:33:07 PM

When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB August 02, 2010, 02:33:07 PM
F-Ciel Current Code Changes:
(Trl Notes by Curbeh)

F-Ciel:
2C - Recovery down
236AB - Stronger hitbox
214C - Recovery shorter
214A - Start up and speed faster
63214ABC - Stronger
AD -Easier to connect the last hit
623C - Prorate and vector weaker
4C - Hitbox, untech time weaker
J2C - Recovery increased
5C - Damage down
Air Somer - Movement after REMOVED
Air B Somer - Damage down

Additional Notes:
5[C] - Air Untechable time increased
63214B - Lower Wall Bounce
236B - hits more characters crouching, extended hitbox below arm
J214C - Black wave now has three block ticks instead of two.

Web Sites:

Current Code Changes (MeltyBread) (http://www.meltybread.com/forums/melty-blood-auditorium/current-code-changes/msg76804/#msg76804)
Regular updates and translations provided by Curbeh and other community members.

Ciel Thread (http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/48793/1284610735/l50)
Japanese Ciel BBS. Provides Player discussion, speculations, combos, news & info, as well as CC specific changes.

Ciel Wiki (http://www19.atwiki.jp/mbaa-ciel/pages/1.html)
Japanese Wiki page. Provides a variety of information for Crescent, Half and Full Moon styles.

Match Videos: Last Update: 10/12/10
(Please provide link & time stamp if available)

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11609617 [~3:00-9:00]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11645106 [~00-3:20 & 9:45-15:00]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewhFolFWwV8

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11959192 [~13:00]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11957757 [~6:00 - 7:40]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11958636 [~12:00]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12215671 [~8:50]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12386434 [~6:45]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12386787 [start - 2:00]
 
Combo Movies:
(Please provide link & time stamp if available)





Please feel free to link any material you may come across related to Full Moon Ciel. Any new information on CC changes, speculations, fighting theories, combos, websites and/or discussion would be appreciated.

 :teach:
: Re: MBAACC : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz creyzee now!!*
: AARP|ZTB August 02, 2010, 02:48:01 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11609617

3m-9m in.

Didn't want to blow up the first post with me nutting all over the thread...so I'll do it here!  :fap: :fap: :fap:

Holy shit, F-Ciel looks kinda bananas now. Like looked solid before but now she seems downright scary. Here are a few things I picked up on from the match vid linked above:

3:00
...It's F-Ciel....AAGGGHHH GET HYPE!!!

~3:19
Post SC combo: SC>2b>5[c]>wait>wait>waaaaait>236A?! Wow, ridiculous untech time now. The player even tried to tack on additional rape after but dropped eventually. Still...wtf. I see lots of combo potential with this new buff.

~3:37
Is it me or does 214A come out like a missile now? Could be the crap quality playing tricks on me though.  :mystery:

~4:51
Yeaaaah, that's what im talking about! He lands random 5[C] the proceeds to combo 2B>5[C] from the initial hit. This is non-CH 5[C] btw. 100% certain this is not doable in ps2 on non-CH. Too good.

~7:17
Lands bnb...does only 3.9k. Not good. Power down seems significant and I'm guessing F-ciel will be averaging under or between 4k-4.5k

~7:59
Man, just 22B here (to anyone who comes into this situation). 22C is still in ground state and satsuki AAD will just scoop that shit up. "Baka" indeed.

~8:19
Lands air-to-air CH. I'm thinking he could have just 2B>5[C]'d here and gone nuts. Gotta make use of those buffs!

~8:28
I messed my pants here. New Bcoma/cmd (command throw) has MUCH LOWER wallbounce now. My brain was going 100mps when I saw this. Oh man, the combo possibilities and potential setups... :psyduck:


Overall thoughts on the player:
Seemed like a decent F-ciel user. His neutral game at midscreen relied too heavily on dj2C (vs satsuki). It's good but I think will get him in trouble against certain types of players/characters. There were a few times he slipped under the satsuki player with dash but chose to do 5a instead of 5c>236a to strike from behind (I've had good results w/ this in the past). I think at some points he could have held ground with 2b>236a and force satsuki to the air (this is assuming that 5[C] CLASH IS STILL PRESENT!! [oh god, I hope so]). Can't wait to see more.

: Re: MBAACC : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz crehzee now!!**
: Tone August 02, 2010, 06:13:01 PM
damage nerfs make me sigh but by the looks of it, there's a lot more potential setups and tricks to use now... good stuff!
: Re: [MBAAC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz crehzee now!!**
: Tempered August 05, 2010, 05:25:45 PM
Zar I think you'll like this vid

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11645106
: Re: [MBAAC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz crehzee now!!**
: Shiki August 05, 2010, 05:34:53 PM
Zar I think you'll like this vid

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11645106

Is that the video with the Day 1 F-Ciel? Lol.

Also, it seems like you can actually do a full combo off B command throw.

 :fap:
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz crehzee now!!**
: Chie Satonaka August 06, 2010, 07:37:47 AM
Maybe it's just my eyes playing tricks on me, but is it me or did they make her falling speed from her airthrow slower?
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz crehzee now!!**
: AARP|ZTB August 06, 2010, 08:29:33 AM
Zar I think you'll like this vid
Unfortunately, that wasn't the case, Tempered lol. I really appreciate the link though and it's good to see this random explosion of F-ciel users (even though they're exploding in the process lol).

Comments about 8/5 nico vid:

~00-1:30
Wow, pretty free. I've actually watched this match a bunch of times now already and at first he appears to "day one" like Shiki mentioned but his movement did seem solid (whenever he did get a chance to move lol). I think maybe he was just inexperienced with the matchup(?). There just wasn't enough being done for me to really comment further on this. He just got outplayed, I guess.

~1:38-3:20
This guy spent way too much time in the corner. Seemed he was trying to establish a defensive game but backing into the corner probably isnt the best way to go about it. Also, he air recovered back into the corner far too much (even took some risky shields on descent) rather than using other escape options e.g. forward air tech, tech>sdj>j236A - something =/. Just stop falling back into the corner (always).

~2:47
BE4B>236A. I dunno about this setup really. I think if you're going to commit to overhead you may as well go for 214A followup into damage (214A has enough pushback to make it safe on guard). Most ppl will just block low immediately after guarding the overhead (once they have seen the setup a number of times). Mixing between 4{B}>236A and 4[ B ]>214A is a bit stronger imo. Especially with the semi-charge prepping defenders to stand early to then eat the low flicker.

~3:00-3:09
Ok...you got blown up for backstepping by 2c>3[c] the first time. Ate "big" dmg for it. Why try for it again against the same exact string? Overall, I say this player made some really poor defensive choices and he was getting blown up a lot on wakeup for trying to move. However, his spacing and movement was a lot more "confident" than his partner's. Hope to see more these players in the future regardless.

~9:45
This player obviously has some long time experience. His movement is superb, spacing is solid, he transitions from defensive zoning/spacing to lockdown very well, and utilizes just about all of F-ciel's tools. There were a few things with his play that I couldn't agree with though:

~12:11
Looks like he was trying to bait out wakeup activation attempt. (sigh) sjC~[D]>5B anti-activate OS would have pretty much eliminated any chance of this occurring and he could have continued to pressure had there been no activation (which there wasn't). (I think there's a chance that many JP players don't know about this in general).

~12:24
Bcoma da gawd. Damage wasn't too great but then again what throw into combo followup deals outstanding dmg? The biggest plus imo was the corner positioning from a midscreen throw. :fap:

~13:50
Man, if I knew jp I would post on the bbs's about kouma/ries specific oki to help these guys out. He could have set up safejump here by simply dashing into immediate jump. Oh well. =/

~14:37
I really dont see the point in otg'ing after low flicker down. Dash>JC shenanigans are way more solid and eliminates unnecessary guess work. There are even OS's from the jC to punish all sorts of dumb shit on wakeup. Aside from his poor oki choices though, this dude is really good. May have to start compiling a list of JP F-Ciel users soon. The revolution is at hand.


Is that the video with the Day 1 F-Ciel? Lol.

Lol Diiiisssssssssss.

Maybe it's just my eyes playing tricks on me, but is it me or did they make her falling speed from her airthrow slower?
Garu was actually talking about this at Evo. Not falling speed specifically, but he was saying that the meaty after airthrow into corner (in CC) was nowhere as free as it is in console ver. Perhaps a change could have been put in place as the developers now seem to hate meaties and bs mixups post air throwing lol.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz crehzee now!!**
: Chie Satonaka August 06, 2010, 01:52:06 PM


Maybe it's just my eyes playing tricks on me, but is it me or did they make her falling speed from her airthrow slower?
Garu was actually talking about this at Evo. Not falling speed specifically, but he was saying that the meaty after airthrow into corner (in CC) was nowhere as free as it is in console ver. Perhaps a change could have been put in place as the developers now seem to hate meaties and bs mixups post air throwing lol.

I dunno about that. Look at these specific time stamps:

~2:56~

She goes for a meaty flicker and Satsuki blocks it. Go back in PS2 and try that shit after an airthrow and regardless of the distance it'll whiff because she hasn't fully "woken up" yet. Maybe they changed the wake-up speeds for some characters or something?

~13:58~

She get's another BNB from 3[C] and goes for dash up 5A...and Kouma blocks it? Again go back in PS2 and test it...it'll whiff entirely. Now we know Kouma has one of the slowest, if not, slowest wake-up speeds in the game so in PS2 this should be standard.

Now assuming that wake-up speed hasn't changed at all, Satsuki shouldn't have been able to block the A Flicker and Kouma shouldn't have been able to block the 5A because both moves would've whiffed against the respective characters. Now if the wake-up speeds are different now than it's whatever, but maybe her post airthrow oki isn't as free as Garu mentioned because her falling speed on after airthrow is slower...who knows?

Edit: I know this isn't the C-Ciel board, but whatever. This could be something that's universal. H-F showed me a match video where she (C-Ciel) does a BNB and she tries to dash up 2A for oki....he jumps out. We both tested this in PS2 by having Ciel do the same BNB and trying to dash up 2A for oki while we try to jump out. We both got tagged. That only further convinces me that they actually slowed down her falling speed on air-throw...which is actually a pretty significant nerf no matter what style you play Ciel in. :S


AAAAAAAAAAAAND nevermind. Odds are it's this.

~Raw airthrows generate a special effect and have less recovery~

Regardless...this still hurts Ciel pretty bad.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread **Dis beech iz crehzee now!!**
: AARP|ZTB August 09, 2010, 08:55:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewhFolFWwV8

(Korean) CL is back and not sucking this time. His last set of vids that went out for AA were pretty bad but he seems to have definitely stepped it up a lot with both C and F moons (more C than F though lol)


~00:41
Yum

~2:05
lol what? anything would have been better than what he did here for IH combo. oh well

~3:12
Dunno why this got buffed but whatever! lol =D

CL was going for some "odd" combo followups. Guess he's still trying to figure out what's what. ZZzz where are Tsa and Yumekami troll F-ciel already? =/
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB September 02, 2010, 11:45:25 AM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11959192 ~13:00

B-cmd looking really good. Damage looks fair and it seems as if there may be some higher dmg possibilities from it or at least messed up setups post-combo. As for the player, too much IAD'ing to reset strings (got blown up a few times for that), couldn't seem to even get combos started. Oh well, at least a B-cmd combo was well shown off.


BnB EDIT:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11957757 ~6:00 - 7:40

@6:28
Old bnb doing ASS dmg (3.8k)

@6:58
NEW BnB!! lol (4.6k)

5A>5A>5B>5C>214A>2B>BE5C>delay 236A>5A>5C>Aerial


Check out the range where the combo is started....pretty damn far I must say. The speculations about 214A increased speed seems to hold weight and I'm pretty damn sure 5C>214A would not have connected from that far in AA. Looks like F-Ciel is still holding her own in the dmg dept.  ;D

On another note, I'm kinda sad that JP really thinks so little of this character (just check some of the comments/commentary). Man, TJDK.


EDIT2:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11958636 ~12:00

More of the same player (?). I'm getting tight watching this guy...until he gets in lol. He makes the most of his in-game but doesn't seem to know how to utilize mid-range tools effectively to force mistakes. But whatever, a win is a win. . .
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Relunx September 23, 2010, 01:26:16 AM
Can someone translate the framedata of F-Ciel (http://bokunenjin.se/irysa/frames8.jpg)?

Tnx in advance!

Relunx
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB October 12, 2010, 01:20:14 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12386434 [~6:45]

continued
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12386787 [start - 2:00]

Seems the player may have been trolling first match. Second match displays more aggression, precision and focus. Still think jp plays down F-ciel midrange spacing far too often (zero use of optimal range 2B and 236B). Also, jp still seems to think this character is bad for w/e reason despite still being able to shell out meterless 5K dmg in bnbs.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka October 12, 2010, 05:16:02 PM
J.C (CH) 1-hit 4C  xx 236C  :V

This guy...

Although the first match was him clearly trolling when he got on the offensive, it looked like to me he was more offensive the 1st game than the 2nd game. Although that could be due to the Hisui just being scared, I mean he did let F-Ciel dash back in from a max range 5(C). To me in the 2nd game he seemed more passive than anything else. A couple of times he tried to play rushdown the Hisui wasn't letting him have it, compared to the 1st game.

The only thing I can say about Japan thinking F-Ciel is a bad character is this...Ciel was one of those characters that was easy to pick up and scrub out with at low levels, but at higher levels of play she got harder to win with (This explains why despite Ciel being top tier in AC, there wasn't anyone really winning anything big with her sort of like GGXX/ KY). In Actress Again you have F-Ciel, who requires more effort to win with and in IMO a bit more linear than C-Ciel. Only reason I can think of Japan not really seeing F-Ciel as a good character is because none of the known AC Ciel players are really using her or trying to break her down...they're all sticking with C-Ciel. Deguchi, Niiya, ABD, Yumekami, all use C-Ciel for the most part. No one is really trying to break the character down in Japan and it's pretty apparent in how frequent we see them in matches, having Garu and Chelsea tell you she doesn't exist in Japan, and when you DO see them it's very under-whelming seeing her not use this character to her max potential...and let's be real...that is the case at this point  and time.

Semi-long rant, TL;DR she isn't really a bad character, just under-developed. Wanna see a bad version of Ciel? Look at H-Ciel.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Relunx October 13, 2010, 12:31:34 AM
So basically JP people thinking Ciel is bad charater coz it's hard to win with her at/against high level? That's lame and lazy. F-Ciel can do an easy meteless 5k combo on almost anyone, is there any other char that can do that? I can't understand why JP people look donw on her. She has a large variety of moves both close and full range, not to mention her anti air moves. You'll never be safe no matter where are you, coz Ciel can pull out a move that can reach you. Sure she doesn't has Hiero but she doesn't need that.

Relunx
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka October 13, 2010, 07:33:48 AM
So basically JP people thinking Ciel is bad charater coz it's hard to win with her at/against high level? That's lame and lazy.

I'm not saying that's the reason why Japan thinks of F-Ciel as a bad character, I'm saying that's how she was designed. She's been like this since AC Ver.A...her worst iteration next to H-Ciel. Don't get it twisted she can still win at high levels, but she has to put in more effort to do so the better you and your competition gets. That's why I lol when I hear people say Ciel was broken in AC.

F-Ciel can do an easy meteless 5k combo on almost anyone, is there any other char that can do that?

In Ver.A and PS2 this really isn't a big deal considering a good chunk of the cast can do this as long as they sneeze on you. In CC, sure she's one of the few characters who can hit 5K meterless, but it's nowhere near as consistent as it was in previous versions. Unless they got a jump-in or started with 5B it wasn't really doing much more than 4.4-4.6K and even the combo itself is super fickle mid-screen from what I've seen of it...at least compared to her flicker combos in ver.A/PS2.

I can't understand why JP people look donw on her.

It's not that Japan looks down on her, it's just that there's hardly anyone willing to be "that guy" and break out of their comfort zone. They're sticking to what they know...and TBH I can't hate them for that. Why do that if what you know is working out great for you?

She has a large variety of moves both close and full range, not to mention her anti air moves. You'll never be safe no matter where are you, coz Ciel can pull out a move that can reach you.

This isn't exclusive to F-Ciel. Ciel by default always had at least one or two great anti-air moves and as long as you had meter you were never truly safe because of the threat of EX-Hiero.

Sure she doesn't has Hiero but she doesn't need that.

Sure she doesn't NEED it, but I'd argue to the end that it sure as hell made some of her match-ups easier.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Relunx October 14, 2010, 12:04:26 AM
Don't get it twisted she can still win at high levels, but she has to put in more effort to do so the better you and your competition gets. That's why I lol when I hear people say Ciel was broken in AC.
As for me I like putting lots of efforts in one character, I'm not the lazy one. I like learning all the tactics and lil tricks that the charater has. And I have to disagree with you with the second part, MBAC Ciel is broken, coz some of her moves are lift her above all charaters, here some examples:
1. EX Hiero + combo after it
2. her clashing dash
3. her "not stopping momentum" air throw --> perfect oki/pressure
These things and many other minor things made her "broken" in AC. Don't get me wrong, sure you have to play her well, but if you think a lil bit you'll understand that no other char can did those things back in AC and those things helped you a lot, making your play much (c)easyer.

The easy 5k meterless combo I was reffering to her new combo that includes the 214a+flickers.

It's not that Japan looks down on her, it's just that there's hardly anyone willing to be "that guy" and break out of their comfort zone. They're sticking to what they know.
I understand. It's hard to change from your good ol' "save" genereal style to a "risky" new one. But change is that moves you forward/evolve.

This isn't exclusive to F-Ciel. Ciel by default always had at least one or two great anti-air moves and as long as you had meter you were never truly safe because of the threat of EX-Hiero.
I have to disagree. C/H Ciel hasn't got a good move (special) that can stop a close range ground opponent.
On the contrary F-Ciel has flickers cmd throws and 214c. And EX-Hiero can be baited easyly.

Sure she doesn't NEED it, but I'd argue to the end that it sure as hell made some of her match-ups easier.
True. But I don't like easy wins. One of the reasons I'm maining F-Ciel nowadays is: she doesn't has EX-Hiero.

Relunx
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Lord Knight October 14, 2010, 03:40:10 AM
So basically JP people thinking Ciel is bad charater coz it's hard to win with her at/against high level? That's lame and lazy.

I'm not saying that's the reason why Japan thinks of F-Ciel as a bad character, I'm saying that's how she was designed. She's been like this since AC Ver.A...her worst iteration next to H-Ciel. Don't get it twisted she can still win at high levels, but she has to put in more effort to do so the better you and your competition gets. That's why I lol when I hear people say Ciel was broken in AC.

F-Ciel can do an easy meteless 5k combo on almost anyone, is there any other char that can do that?

In Ver.A and PS2 this really isn't a big deal considering a good chunk of the cast can do this as long as they sneeze on you. In CC, sure she's one of the few characters who can hit 5K meterless, but it's nowhere near as consistent as it was in previous versions. Unless they got a jump-in or started with 5B it wasn't really doing much more than 4.4-4.6K and even the combo itself is super fickle mid-screen from what I've seen of it...at least compared to her flicker combos in ver.A/PS2.

I can't understand why JP people look donw on her.

It's not that Japan looks down on her, it's just that there's hardly anyone willing to be "that guy" and break out of their comfort zone. They're sticking to what they know...and TBH I can't hate them for that. Why do that if what you know is working out great for you?

She has a large variety of moves both close and full range, not to mention her anti air moves. You'll never be safe no matter where are you, coz Ciel can pull out a move that can reach you.

This isn't exclusive to F-Ciel. Ciel by default always had at least one or two great anti-air moves and as long as you had meter you were never truly safe because of the threat of EX-Hiero.

Sure she doesn't has Hiero but she doesn't need that.

Sure she doesn't NEED it, but I'd argue to the end that it sure as hell made some of her match-ups easier.
:prinny: :prinny: :prinny: :prinny: :prinny:

this char is fucking bs are you kidding me
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Relunx October 14, 2010, 04:54:42 AM
:prinny: :prinny: :prinny: :prinny: :prinny:
this char is fucking bs are you kidding me
bs? bullshit?
Maybe can you explain it?

Just bcoz she's not fitting for your style or gameplay, it doesn't mean she's a bad character.

Relunx
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Lord Knight October 14, 2010, 06:11:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/darkdrizzle

: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: ehrik October 14, 2010, 08:48:37 AM
OS-Ciel
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Kirah October 14, 2010, 11:35:29 AM
People really don't know shit about this character and it really is disgusting especially when a certain someone forged this character in its entirety I firmly believe she's the only real S-Tier char, and since this character has been unexplored she has been buffed for CC. Prepare to be sad take this from someone who fights this char's creator on a week/monthly basis. Despite having amazing footsies and just an overall great movelist she's the deadlier then any char in the game. So take a step back and really take in what you see in the tutorial vids that has been linked. This character is the embodiment of the word 'options' and in no way shape or form be underestimated, but this character requires dedication in order to remember all of her options. They're so many that not even Bifford can remember them all and she keeps evolving even now...
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: MissedFRC October 14, 2010, 11:47:29 AM
God damn.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Relunx October 14, 2010, 12:52:46 PM
Realy don't get these "two words" answers or some link.
Isn't it hard to explain it clearly? Well I guess I expect too much or ppl here is unable to speak normally.

Other:
Her new combo "(jc),5abc,214a,2b,5[c],236a,5ac, jbc, jbc, j22b, air throw" as far as I saw it worked only in corner, if used in midscreen the 2b is whiff after the 214a.
Anyone, comments?

Relunx
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB October 14, 2010, 03:13:26 PM
Lol ppl posting in this thread who aren't Brandino or Zar? :psyduck:

Vanilla, Ver.A
F-ciel design presented a fresh, original, and "cool" character concept. Moves such as Flicker Hi/Low and cmd throw along with a few varied normals allowed this rendition of ciel to viewed in a different light, setting her play style and objectives apart from the C/H forms (IMO). In spite of such innovation, the character was still lacking esp. in comparison to her prevalent crescent form.

PS2/Console
So how exactly was the Ver.A (and obsolete vanilla) form of F-ciel "lacking"? Well, for one, tweaks to her JC complemented one of her exclusive specials, low flicker. This quick striking, mid-ranged attack allowed her to force a down at midscreen then by use of the JC, set up crossup attacks on wakeup. With the absence of a crossup jump attack in Ver.A, followups from landing a low flicker were pretty much useless as the most you'd get was a small otg that led to a wakeup game which was hardly intimidating. In addition, JC expanded hitbox also contributed to her aerial spacing and neutral game, allowing F-ciel to attack from many angles. The other "minor" change, which was given to all moon styles, was the untechable airthrow. For Ver.A C-Ciel, JB on decent allowed for punish against forward teching, but F-ciel had no such option as this form lacked a crossup attack, again making the previous F-ciel form extra weak. This is irrelevant to console as the airthrow is now completely untechable but considering the Ver.A F-ciel had one less option was enough reason to question her existence (lol). Amazing how two simple changes made the character "playable".

CC
Unfortunately, the Jp MB scene won't touch console fighters w/ a 10ft. pole, so it's safe to say that the majority of the community was fully unaware of F-ciel's developments since then. Enter CC: Console MBAA non-existent, Many unjustified buffs to a "bad/joke character", Jp MB scene oblivious due to community stigma. The devs are either dumb as fuck or they really wanted this character to become an above average competitor. If the latter, then I must say they did an excellent job. Buffs and tweaks to Bcmd throw (which was nearly useless even in console, but F-ciel was still able to manage overall), faster A knife (why?), practically no recovery on 214C knife (you really want me to spam knife set all day...okay then), increased untechtime on BE5C allowing for even more fucked up loops that pretty much give her Ver.A/Console dmg for bnbs (gj, fellas), and finally, though this is a rumor atm, lowered hitbox on High Flicker leaving no one safe to random 236B>iad spam AND opening up more opportunities to get more dmg from random hits like 2B.

Considering all of these buffs (CC), not to mention the other bullshit SHE ALREADY HAD, Japan still believes F-ciel = www because they, much like the US fg communities, have far too many followers and not enough innovators. If they ever manage to get their heads out of C-ciel's ass they may come to realize that perhaps the F-style may also be a force to be acknowledged. Until then, we'll just have to settle for our once-a-month poverty F-ciel viewings.  :emo:
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: MissedFRC October 14, 2010, 04:21:38 PM
+heat Zar. Great vids and that was a neat read.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB October 14, 2010, 06:39:55 PM
On another note:

Some people seem to believe that F-ciel is "the ciel without 7th heaven". This notion would imply that F-ciel is to be played in the same manner as her crescent form, minus the option to use 7th, when this is far from the case. F-ciel mechanics and design completely contrast that of the Crescent and Half forms. If anything, the C & H forms have more similarities in concepts like spacing, pressure, strings, strategy and objectives than F has to either of the two. If we examine some of the core aspects of the C & F forms we can see just how different the two styles are as well as strengths and weaknesses posed in matchups:

General Spacing @ mid to long range
C (214B>4A)
IMO crescent does appear to have the upperhand in the distanced/zoning game. This knife set is fast and covers a very awkward angle. It keeps opponents pinned down and can be staggered into the final set (which leads to ex followups). Proper use makes this versatile zoning tool hard to get around.
F (214B>214C)
This knife set is probably strongest at 3/4 stage range and will cover a lot of area above ciel. Completing the set will keep a ground approach in check. IMO it's a bit easier to misplace and misuse this set. However, due to the decreased recovery on 214C in CC, I feel players may get more leeway and opportunities to play a bit more reckless with zoning.
F (214A)
A decent ground projectile in Ver.A/console, perhaps gdlk even in CC due to increased speed. I like F's 214A over C's any day: forced down, launches, easily confirmable into EX sycher for added dmg at long ranges. In strings though C's 214[A], although a bit gimmicky, may be a bit stronger.

C (dash 2a, double jumps, IADs)
From the looks of it, C doesn't seem to have much of a mid-ranged gameplan. It seems to be nothing but dashing within 2a range to start pressure or use of double jumps and IADs to close in. IMO C's seems to only be able to transition from fullscreen zoning to zero-range pressure (and vice versa) without any in-between. Because of this if feel that C is lacking in a bit more in neutral and has to take more risks when attempting to approach.
F (dash 2B, neutral 2B, 236B)
I've yet to see any F user throw 2B fishing into their neutral game (even the all-mighty TSA!). 2B has good speed for it's attack range, hits low, can be canceled from and has very little recovery to punish on reaction to whiff or with IADs. From my experience, 2B seems effective in thwarting off aggressive ground approach, i.e. mindless dashing, and will force players to seek an alternative offense which usu. ends up being IADs, jumping (both which get shut down by F's strong anti-airs) or falling back to zoning if the option is available. F-ciel can also take initiative instead, and dash into the attack range to tag any sudden movements while being able to score a down by coupling low flicker (or high vs tall crouching characters). The other mid-ranged tool would be the High Flicker. This attack is a mere 9f in start up and covers a range that rivals Nero's 4C. It's also air unblockable, +1 on guard, ex cancelable for added shenanigans and jump cancelable on hit making combo follow ups relatively easy when fishing for a hit on grounded opponents. With these tools, F is able to cover a range unknown to C style.


General Spacing w/ Air-to-air and anti-air
C (JB, JC, 2B, 4C, 4B)
I'll just get this out the way now: 4C is ass for an anti-air, regardless of moon style but is semi-effective when anticipating jumps. JB and JC (usu. j7 for both) appear to be extremely effective in air battles (I've consistently seen good results w/ this in matches). 2B IMO is a bit similar to 4C in that it's used to catch jump attempts (usu. "set up" with dash>2b or something). It also seems effective for nailing players descending from air techs. As for 4B...no one, Jp or US, is using this for AA even though it has fast start up with clash lol.
F (JB, JC, 5C, 4B, 4C)
I don't know why but...JB for air-to-air gets results. It's fast and the hitbox is goofy (I guess). Spacing is to be heavily considered and you have to be a bit more precise with where you strike with the attack. In other situations, JC seems to cover angles that JB can't and it stays out FOREVER. IMO both C and F moon seem about even in their air-to-air abilities. As for anti-airs, F-ciel dagawd. You pretty much have to think twice about how to approach if your character lacks a multi-hit jump in. Otherwise you just get blown up with whatever followup may come after that backhand to the face. I honestly don't think many characters, let alone C-ciel, can even fuck with the practicality of this move. In addition to being an anti-air, 5C can blowup activations, multi-hit attacks, dps and do your laundry all in one.


General spacing Inside Game (Rebeats vs +Frames)
C
This segment is actually hard for me to comment on being as I don't truly understand the theory behind crescent's rebeat strings and inside pressure. For the most part, [ 2B, 3B, 5C, 5C>5C, rebeat 5a/2a hit/whiff ] seem to be the primary tools for holding forward momentum and feinting openings in C-ciel's attack strings. At the cost of max damage, C-ciel seems to be able hold players on defense a bit longer than F-ciel may be capable of.
F
This form is no slouch in that department, however. F-ciel is is capable of incorporating "fake" rebeat strings by use of whiffed A attacks and whoring plus frames on a few other normals. F is also has extremely late cancel points on her normals, allowing her to stagger at various degrees and letting her pace an attack string in accordance to the defender's level of "respect". Switching from slow, ascending strings to exploiting +f normals to advance forward or continue a new string (or both!) is enough to keep the opponent second guessing. I'll admit though that it takes a bit longer to figure out a player by these methods than mashing out rebeat strings until landing a hit. However, the upside to landing a random hits as F-ciel more often than not brings about a bigger payout with full dmg in return.
C (4B, BE4B)
...fucking useless. Anyone with experience in the match will be able to guard this every single time on reaction.
F (4B, BE4B)
...bullshit. Extremely strong meta-game going on 4B in attack strings. Semi-charged to flicker low for players who guard high on reaction to leg lift and BE4B to 214A for those who are just too damn slow to react. F-ciel really brings out this move's full potential and is definitely one of her stronger options.


General spacing 7th Heaven vs NO 7th Heaven
C
What can I say...7th is like the most versatile EX move in the damn game. Who can fuck with a FULL SCREEN, FULLY INVINCIBLE (after flash), FORCED DOWN attack at only the cost of 100% circuit. Sure this move is can easily be baited as a wakeup but that doesn't stop people from using this as a reversal in strings - strings which MOST characters have to respect or use other mediocre reversal options - or against full screen or ranged attacks or activations on reaction. Honestly, not many characters in MB have shit on 7th even with the many nerfs added to it.
F
That being said - stayfree, F-ciel? No, not really. The F form isn't exactly confined to a wheelchair with terminal cancer. F-ciel can still be and is (IMO) a very playable, competent and rewarding character to use in even the highest levels of competition. It's just that some of the players picking up or using F-ciel need to keep in mind that F-ciel =/= C-ciel in far too many areas. Instead of trying to use the character as "that Ciel without the Hiero", players need to go in understanding that these styles are not two different sides to the same coin but instead two completely different coins altogether.


On a personal note:
If ranking were to be considered, I'd say that C-ciel is only slightly better than F-ciel due to 7th Heaven and the 214B>214A knife set and THAT'S IT. I don't believe C is better by a large margin and in fact, I believe F to have some better matchups than C due to variety in neutral game and overall spacing. Because of this, I strayed from C-ciel as I don't like throwing myself at an opponent and I guess terribly when it comes to extensive zoning. F-ciel complements my playstyle as a whole and allows me to transition through many play styles in a match when necessary.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: F9|Chibi October 21, 2010, 08:39:29 AM
Posted your goodness on the front page sir~
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB October 21, 2010, 11:14:17 AM
Appreciate it sir~

Have some other stuff in the works but I'm currently looking into "better" editing software to soup up future presentations...I may get lazy though, who knows lol.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB October 21, 2010, 09:48:52 PM
...The beginning of the end of our suffering

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRpOu3Nmjo
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Zaelar October 22, 2010, 01:15:54 AM
You could have just said that C and F are different characters like almost every character is when switching between those moons.  You could have said it the way I would have said it and said well since H-tohno, vsion, kohaku don't have seventh heaven then they must be worse too, and when they* say "but they have stupid block strings and comboable grabs", you sigh and look at them funny for a moment, and when they say what, you yell "I'MA CHARGIN MAH 5C!".

*several idiots would just quote the Japanese tier list that can't possibly be wrong and say it applies to the ps2 version, but for the sake of my argument lets assume you're not talking to someone that dumb.

Also I'm not sure if it's me not playing in a while or youtube quality, but the A flickers looked like they had less recovery in that video.

"As for 4B...no one, Jp or US, is using this for AA even though it has fast start up with clash lol."

I'm messing around with it but it feels inconsistent.  It loses to most good jump-ins like anything with any shiki knife, kohaku's broom, and most other things that people tend to jump in with.  Basically I spam it on people that don't use good jumpins for lols but then don't use it against good players because it hurts.  I've been meaning to do more training mode with this but I'm lazy and I like 8b and 22b as AA.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: DivineArc October 28, 2010, 02:27:20 PM
Zar is godlike, End of story
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Tempered November 02, 2010, 02:52:13 PM
Yo that vid was gdlk.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka November 05, 2010, 06:35:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9R5heDRxHM

Leaving this here.  Knock yourselves out.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Zaelar November 06, 2010, 04:00:09 AM
That F-akiha looked like a good player that never played her before.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Relunx November 11, 2010, 02:45:55 AM
Nice combo, but instead of j214c he could also use j236b or land 5b --> continue combo to save meter.

Other question:
Does Ciel has any bad matchup? She is a jack of all trades so I wonder if there's any bad matchups for her.

Relunx
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Funky-kun December 19, 2010, 09:52:23 PM
Dunno if this has been discussed before, but is there any particular reason why C-Ciel's 5CC totally ignores Nero's 214b (automatic activation snakes)?  ??? They just pass through her, although she appears to be on the ground. :mystery:
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB December 19, 2010, 10:15:26 PM
Wrong thread, buddy. May want to refer to the frame viewer to find your answer though. Check to see if the hitbox by her legs are present or not (sorta like how her 4B has no hitbox at the feet).
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Relunx March 22, 2011, 11:33:00 AM
Found out a nerf about Ciel:
her j214b,4b,4b keys on block is now only +2% (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE6CyKhEJLM#t=01m26s) magic circuit gain (unlike in mbaa where +20-23% was)

Relunx
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB March 22, 2011, 12:27:03 PM
(sigh)
not a "ciel nerf". New CC system mechanic: In addition to reducing guard stun (already present in prior renditions of AA), Ex Guarding now "rewards" defender by inhibiting attacker's meter gain. Also, you fail at math.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Tonberry March 22, 2011, 07:25:38 PM
(sigh)
not a "ciel nerf". New CC system mechanic: In addition to reducing guard stun (already present in prior renditions of AA), Ex Guarding now "rewards" defender by inhibiting attacker's meter gain. Also, you fail at math.

I knew about this change but wow, ONE ex guard makes future hits from the attacker gain less meter.  I always thought it was just less meter for the individual hit that was ex guarded from the way it was worded.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Curbeh March 30, 2011, 01:35:12 AM
Probably going to pick this character up to be my main for CC.
95% sure
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Rokunaya March 30, 2011, 02:20:47 AM
Probably going to pick this character up to be my main for CC.
95% sure

DO IT. Hype as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck  :prinny: :prinny: :prinny: :prinny:


...But don't you go quitting H-ries now.  :gonk:
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB April 24, 2011, 11:34:25 PM
It's been a while but - wow - a pretty solid jp F-ciel 友蔵(シエル)
Anyone w/ player name romanization, a post would be appreciated.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14244170

00:10
Shows off the 2b>be5c loop (2 reps) as posted on the jp ciel wiki (wiki says 3reps are possible, doesnt look easy though).

9:28
2B>236B>IAFUCKINGD. Thank you, Japan.

This guy was pretty decent overall: solid spacing, occasional 2b fishing, confirms, good use of stand-alone flickers, and some so-so strings.Reactions to jumpins were good but...he kept trying to air-to-air w/ jA's and jC's instead of just laming it out w/ dash under/5c/22b/j7b (this was my only real gripe about this particular player). Still, happy to see a jp f-ciel not get exposed so freely this time around.  :prinny:


just for good measure
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14243811
first match is THE BEST MATCH IN MBAA HISTORY, EVERRRR (...not really lol)
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Tonberry April 24, 2011, 11:57:51 PM
It's been a while but - wow - a pretty solid jp F-ciel 友蔵(シエル)
Anyone w/ player name romanization, a post would be appreciated.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14244170

Tomozou, romanization courtesy of
http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E5%8F%8B%E8%94%B5&eng=&dict=edict
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Id_asz May 03, 2011, 11:53:01 AM
How I see it, Ciel was my main in Act Cadenza, so I have a lot invested in the Crescent iteration of that character.

I screwed around with Full moon a bit, and saw her potential, but it was just too different than what I was used to. I play a bunch of other characters in AA, and those characters I picked a moon-style objectively, just picking what I thought was the best version for me, independent of what I might have played with them in AC. But because I was so familiar with Ciel in AC, I just couldn't make the switch to a character so radically different. If someone else didn't play Ciel in AC, but wanted to switch to Ciel in AA, they might choose F-Ciel, because they have no time invested in C-Ciel. I think that's where most of the F-Ciel players come from.

I really should consider picking up F-Ciel, though, because in arcade if you win you're allowed to swap out your moon style as a winner's counter-pick. Since C and F are so different, there's probably some good counter-pick setups there.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB October 17, 2011, 03:11:24 PM
lol "topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days."

sigh.

anyway, i'm just about done filtering through (crappy) jp vids for f-ciel matches which will likely never come. BUT if anyone happens to stumble onto some (quality) f-ciel footage from CC 1.07, would appreciate a heads up in the thread. I'm sure the other THREE F-CIEL USERS IN THE WORLD would appreciate it as well.

+Heat for anyone cool enough to not fag it up w/ troll vids.

*waits for troll vids*  ::)
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Shiki October 17, 2011, 05:36:49 PM
At least it's not worse than our thread. Har, har.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: dumba989 October 17, 2011, 06:32:55 PM
You know Japan's not knowledgeable enough to play this character but on actual topic, I'll let you know if I see anything now that you've asked.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB November 04, 2011, 08:47:29 AM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16074643

@04:00

# of low/instant air dashes at neutral: 9

# of 2B's at neutral                             : 0

Jp really needs to form some sort of committee for F-ciel. Shit's embarrassing to watch.

Edit:
And now that dmg output is significantly lower, an even stronger neutral game is a must. Oh well.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka November 09, 2011, 10:34:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJMtipVE57k&feature=feedu <--- F-Ciel @ 11:29

1st worthy note: One of the better F-Ciel users who knows what buttons to push when he's in close range. Also one of the few F-Ciel Ciel players I've seen who'll opt back to walking backwards to bait a poke and try and punish.

2nd worthy note: 623B OTG relaunches. I'm going to assume that this is her OTG relaunch across all 3 styles. I actually like that since it means she doesn't have to use meter to get optimal OTG damage now.

3rd worthy note: Like Zar said earlier, her damage took a HUGE hit. Optimal (for now) double flicker and she barely breaks 4K? I know Arc's defense is far from terribly bad, but really?  :emo:

Personal notes: Easily one of the better F-Ciel players I've seen since in a *long* while. I also liked the use of falling J.214C post airthrow, which it looks like you'll have to resort to more than ever against characters with faster wakeup speeds if you decide to keep the opponent in the corner.

Can it be New Years Eve yet? :-[
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka November 09, 2011, 11:13:53 AM
That F-Ciel is none other than Ragu. Is he still the only player in Japan that knows how to use her? :V

I knew the color was familiar when I first saw it. It's good thing I know his name now  :toot:

<<<< Needs to not be such a JP scrub and learn dem moonrunes :(
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB November 09, 2011, 01:34:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJMtipVE57k&feature=feedu <--- F-Ciel @ 11:29

1st worthy note: One of the better F-Ciel users who knows what buttons to push when he's in close range. Also one of the few F-Ciel Ciel players I've seen who'll opt back to walking backwards to bait a poke and try and punish.
Dancing machine. Universal walk speed buff will make traditional footsies a bit more viable in MB. Improved walk speed in addition to various +f normals is going to make her in-game super annoying.

2nd worthy note: 623B OTG relaunches. I'm going to assume that this is her OTG relaunch across all 3 styles. I actually like that since it means she doesn't have to use meter to get optimal OTG damage now.
Yeah, landing random 236As at midscreen means something now. Rather than going for mixups post-flicker, f-ciel now has the option to shoot for more meter and try for better positioning w/ a 623B followup combo.

It looks like subbing in 623B/C relaunches post-236A down vs aoko/nero/len in the corner is a good idea too since they have funky wakeup times that make safejump tricky to setup (after 4b>236b otg).

3rd worthy note: Like Zar said earlier, her damage took a HUGE hit. Optimal (for now) double flicker and she barely breaks 4K? I know Arc's defense is far from terribly bad, but really?  :emo:
Gotta grind that new 2b>5[c]>delay 236A loop. The jp wiki says that 3 reps are doable. Most I've seen ever was two which dealt 5k in CC1. I intend to grind this nonetheless.

Overall dmg output in 1.07 looks suuuper-low. IMO it makes the full moon system a bit stronger (more chances to reach max) and waters down the threat of OP oki seen in the previous renditions. The focus now seems to be who can maintain a consistent neutral game.

Personal notes: Easily one of the better F-Ciel players I've seen since in a *long* while. I also liked the use of falling J.214C post airthrow, which it looks like you'll have to resort to more than ever against characters with faster wakeup speeds if you decide to keep the opponent in the corner.
landing then 236A is an option too that's not seen very often. Get them to respect this and you can start going in more w/ dash throw, dash 5A>4C, IAD, etc.

Speaking of respect: I was loving Ragu's 5B mash and getting the opponent to respect a 5C>2C string XD. I still wish he'd 2B and Hi Flicker more in neutral. His def and spacing has improved a lot though.

That F-Ciel is none other than Ragu. Is he still the only player in Japan that knows how to use her? :V
Someone needs to hit up TSA for that runback OR force GO1 and Leo to pick up the character.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka November 09, 2011, 03:52:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJMtipVE57k&feature=feedu <--- F-Ciel @ 11:29

1st worthy note: One of the better F-Ciel users who knows what buttons to push when he's in close range. Also one of the few F-Ciel Ciel players I've seen who'll opt back to walking backwards to bait a poke and try and punish.
Dancing machine. Universal walk speed buff will make traditional footsies a bit more viable in MB. Improved walk speed in addition to various +f normals is going to make her in-game super annoying.

Yeah and her walk speed wasn't too shabby in comparison to the rest of the cast to begin with. I hope I see more Ciel players in general take advantage of her walk speed like he did in the video.

landing then 236A is an option too that's not seen very often. Get them to respect this and you can start going in more w/ dash throw, dash 5A>4C, IAD, etc.

I think now with her airthrow not being as good as PS2 where you could run whatever you wanted, you're going to see this being used a lot more against characters with average / slighter faster wakeup speed. Characters like Ries and Kouma are still going to recieve the worst of her post AT mixup game in the corner. Ryougi on the other hand.... :V

: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Shiki November 17, 2011, 08:42:57 AM
Why the hell are you in JP, Zar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=1vSYC2GN-sg
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB November 17, 2011, 01:29:06 PM
looks like i need to get back in the lab

. . .
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: ShardZ December 30, 2011, 04:29:11 AM
Here's some F-Ciel changes I noticed in FrameDisplay:

+- 2C active frames changed from 4f -> 2f, but that combined with 5f less recovery makes the move have 7f less total duration.
+- j.A hitbox doesn't go as far back but reaches further down, with a small part of it outside of her hurtbox.
- j.B hitbox doesn't reach quite as far back.
- j.C recovery increased a bit.
+ Backdash recovers 2f faster.
- j.2C hurtbox is bigger above/in front of her head during startup & active frames for both the charged & uncharged versions.
- Uncharged j.2C has a smaller hitbox both near her head and on her blade; doesn't reach quite as low now.
- 4C has a larger vertical hurtbox beginning 4f into startup, lasting until 8f after the active frames.
+ BE4B hitbox reaches very slightly lower.
- 22B hitbox doesn't reach quite as high.
+ 236B now reaches lower in the middle part of its hitbox.
+ 623B reaches much lower, otg relaunch ftw.

I forgot to pay attention to the attack properties, so no notes on those.  :psyduck:
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB January 01, 2012, 11:43:10 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16578480

Liked this dudes overall spacing. Pretty solid imo. Wish he used a teeny bit more j7B / 22B / dash under against more obvious aerial approaches and air techs. VS F-Hime on the other hand...2C 2strong.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Tsnowflake January 04, 2012, 09:23:18 PM
Just wanted to contribute some simple combos I mashed out in training mode.

: Off of Raw Air Throw
GOLD THROW>Delay 236B (land)>5C> j.BC> dj.BC>dj.22B> combo ender (AT/214C/22C)
~3207 on C-Nanaya

: Off of B-version command grab w/ opponent in the corner
B COMMAND GRAB>5C> j.BC> dj.BC>dj.22B> combo ender
~2941 on C-Nanaya

This will also work at about 1/2 screen due to the distance Ciel moves after the grab connects.
I also noticed that some other normals/specials can be thrown in before the arials, 5a5c or 5b5c or 5b 236b however it seemed very spacing dependent and unreliable (at least for me) whereas simple 5c worked effectively and easily. The 5c also auto-corrects for when the character remains in or is throw out of the corner by the command grab.

: Off of B-version command grab w/ opponent very far from corner
B COMMAND GRAB>623C>j.A>j.B>22B> ender
~3000

I know these are super easy, but maybe one of you combo geniuses can come up with some higher damaging variants.

edit: stealing LKs formatting for neatness. edit2: more formatting for uniformity & added dmg numbers.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB January 12, 2012, 03:15:43 PM
(too many damn characters in this game)

B command throw specifics (character backed in IMMEDIATE CORNER/no space)

OUT

Shiki T.
Aoko
Nanaya
Ciel
Sion
Ries
Vshi
Warachia
Roa
Mech (all)
Vermillion
Akiha
Seifuku
Nero
Hisui (all)


IN

Ancestor
Kouma
Miyako
Warc
Saint
Arc
Satsuki
Len
Ryougi
Shiro
NAC
Kohaku (all)
Neco
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB January 13, 2012, 08:10:05 PM
Midscreen BnBs

Simple to Advanced-Intermediate
These combos are probably the most essential bnbs you'll use/need to use at midscreen (unless a character specific combo rewards more damage of course). There are dozens of variations for the combos posted below but these are by far (IMO) the simplest to execute w/o taking too much away from overall damage output.

NOTES!
***ALL COMBOS WERE PERFORMED ON NANAYA. VALUES GIVEN ARE BASED ON HIS DAMAGE MODIFIER
***AERIAL = j.BC>dj.BC>dj.22B>AIRTHROW


standard, Classic Combo
4764

2A>2A>2C>4C>A FLICKER>5A>5B>A FLICKER>5B>5C>j.BC>dj.BC>dj.22B>AIRTHROW


Extended B FLICKER Combo using 5B starter
5730

5B>2B>2C>4C>A FLICKER>5A>5B>A FLICKER>5B>B FLICKER>IAD j.C>land>j.BC>dj.BC>dj.22B>AIRTHROW


Double Jump>Airdash Variant w/ 5B starer
5180

5B>2B>2C>4C>A FLICKER>5A>5B>A FLICKER>5B>5C>j.C>dj.>AIRDASH>dj.AA>dj.22B>AIRTHROW


Simple BE5C combo
4763

2A>5B>2B>5C>A KNIFE>2B>BE5C>5C>AERIAL


BE5C>Sweep Combo
5003~5143

2A>2A>5C>A KNIFE>2B>BE5C>Delay A FLICKER>2C>4C>236A>5B>5C>AERIAL
***Can begin combo w/ 2A>5B. For whatever reason, the space it creates seems to make the Delay 236A land more consistently FROM MY EXPERIENCE.


Troublesome BE5C loop x2
5473

2A>2A>5C>A KNIFE>[2B>BE5C>Delay A FLICKER]x2>2C>4C>236A>5B>5C>AERIAL
***x2 = Execute notation in brackets [ ] twice
***Can begin combo w/ 2A>5B. For whatever reason, the space it creates seems to make the Delay 236A land more consistently FROM MY EXPERIENCE.


More Annoying Variant of Loop x2
5668

2A>2A>5C>A KNIFE>[2B>BE5C>Delay A FLICKER]x2>2C>4C>A FLICKER>5B>5{C}>
A FLICKER>5A>5C>AERIAL
***{ } = Slightly charge (or half charge) the 5{C}
***x2 = Execute notation in brackets [ ] twice
***Can begin combo w/ 2A>5B. For whatever reason, the space it creates seems to make the Delay 236A land more consistently FROM MY EXPERIENCE.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Tsnowflake January 14, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
a small addendum to zar's list which may prove useful.

: Overhead Combo
BE4B>A KNIFE>2B>BE5C>Delay A FLICKER>5A>5B>A FLICKER>5B>5C>j.BC>dj.BC>dj.22B>AIRTHROW
5145 on C-Nanaya

: Air Throw Combo 2
GOLD THROW>(land) 2C>4C>A FLICKER>5B>5C>j.BC>dj.BC>dj.22B>AIRTHROW
3561 on C-Nanaya

: Air Throw Combo 3 (CORNER ONLY)
GOLD THROW>(land) 2C>4C>A FLICKER>5A>5B>A FLICKER>5B>5C>j.BC>dj.BC>dj.22B>AIRTHROW
3737 on C-Nanaya
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka January 15, 2012, 01:52:56 PM
http://youtu.be/CxzyS1oFrXY

Quick test with fraps + basic IH combo. Will cook something small with her within a couple of days hopefully.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB January 15, 2012, 02:32:01 PM
Grab fraps hack (and vegas for edits) if you dont already have. "Full versions" get rid of the marquee at top if you're picky about that sort of thing.

resolution/ratio looks weird. would ask what settings you're using but I don't know too much about wtf I'm doing when processing vids anyway lol.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka January 15, 2012, 02:48:03 PM
Grab fraps hack (and vegas for edits) if you dont already have. "Full versions" get rid of the marquee at top if you're picky about that sort of thing.

resolution/ratio looks weird. would ask what settings you're using but I don't know too much about wtf I'm doing when processing vids anyway lol.

resolution is default and the aspect ratio is 16:9. Anything other than that and fraps causes my laptop to slowdown to like 30FPS.

Just to warn people ahead of time this video is going to be poverty as fuck. Like WMM levels of poverty here.
: Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka January 15, 2012, 07:58:14 PM
http://youtu.be/gFyuAq92ci4

Told you it was going to be poverty as fuck.

Edit: so poverty can't even watch all of it.

Edit 2: fixed the link for working CMV
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: Chie Satonaka February 07, 2012, 07:35:24 PM
Almost 3 weeks since I made that video. I guess I can not be lazy enough to do notations.

Legend:
x - signifying that you're performing an link
> - signifying that you're performing an cancel
AT - Airthrow
[] - Signifying that you're charging the move
OTG - Off The Ground

Basics non-flicker combos
0:00 - 2A > 2A > 3B > 2C > 4C > J.B > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
0:07 - 2A > 2A > 3B > 2C > 4C > J.B > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22C
0:13 - 2A > 2A > 3B > 2C > 4C > J.B > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > j>22B > J.214C

Basic 1-flicker combos
0:20 - 2A > 2A > 3B > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5C > J.B. > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
0:28 - 2A > 2A > 3B > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5C > J.B. > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22C
0:36 - 2A > 2A > 3B > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5C > J.B. > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22B > J.214C
0:43 - Same as the combo above (editing error!)

Basic 2-Flicker combos
0:50 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
1:00 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22C
1:10 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5A > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > J.214C
1:17 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A > 63214C
1:27 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A x 623B x J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT

Basic OTG relaunches
1:38 - 2A > 2A > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236A x 623B x J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
1:44 - 2A > 2A > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236A > 63214C

Basic 2-Flicker IAD variation
1:49 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236B > IAD J.C x J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C  > J.22B > AT
1:58 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236B > IAD J.C x J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C  > J.22C
2:07 -2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236B > IAD J.C x J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C  > J.22B > J.214C

Raw Airthrow (AT) combos
2:17 - AT x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
2:25 - AT x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 236A x 623B x J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C
2:34 - AT x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 236A x 63214A
2:41 - AT x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 236A x 63214C
2:48 - AT x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 236A x 236C
2:56 - AT > J.236B *land* 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A x 63214A
3:03 - AT > J.236B *land* 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A x 63214C
3:13 - AT > J.236B *land* 236A x 5A > 5A > 236A x 5B > 236A x 623B x J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT

Overhead 4(B) combos
3:23 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J .C > J.22B > AT
3:33 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J .C > J.22C
3:44 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J .C > J.22B > J.214C
3:55 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236B > IAD J.C > J.A > J.C > > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
4:03 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A x 623B > J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
4:13 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A x 63214A
4:21 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A x 63214C
4:31 - 4(B) > 214A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A x 236C

OTG string post 236A flicker (Midscreen)
4:39 - 2A > 2A > 5B > 236C

OTG string post 236A flicker (Corner)
4:45 - 2A > 2A > 5B > 236C
4:50 - 2A > 5A (x4) > 5B > 236C
4:56 - 2A > 5A (x4) > 5B > 4B > 236B

2B > 5(C) x Flicker combo variaions
5:01 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > > J.C > J.22B > AT
5:11 - 2A > 2A > 5B > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > > J.C > J.22C
5:21 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > > J.C > J.22B > J.214C
5:30 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 623B J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C J.22B > AT
5:40 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 63214C
5:47 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 2A > 5A (x4) > 5B > 236C
5:55 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5B > 236B IAD J.C *land* J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
6:05 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A  x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > J.214C
6:16 - Same combo as above (editing error 2!)
6:27 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A  x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 236A x 63214A

2B > 5(C) Double Flicker combos (corner)
6:35 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
6:44 -  2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22C
6:55 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > J.214C
7:06 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236B > IAD J.C *land* J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
7:17 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A  x 63214A
7:27 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A  x 63214C
7:36 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A  x 236C
7:44 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 236A  x 2A > 5A (x4) > 5B > 236C
7:55 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A > 63214C
8:06 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B > 236A x 623B > J.A > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT

*sample* Instant Heat combos *sample*
8:17 - 2A > 2A > 3B(1-hit) > 2C > 4C > 236A x 5A > 5B > 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22B > IH x J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
8:26 - 5B > 2B >236A IH x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.A > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
8:35 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A > 2B > 5(C) x 236A IH x 4(B) x 2C > 4C > 236A x 5B >236A x 41236C
8:50 - 2A > 2A > 3B (1-hit) > 5C > 214A > 2B > 5(C) x 236A IH x 4(B) x 2B > 5(C) x 236A x 5B > 5C > J.B > J.C > J.B > J.C > J.22B > AT
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB April 11, 2012, 08:48:31 AM
To the ppl w/ nico accounts:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/search/MBAACC+%E3%82%89%E3%81%90%28F%E3%82%B7%E3%82%A8%E3%83%AB%29vs%E3%83%8F%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B9%E3%83%94%28CF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%A9%E3%82%AD%E3%82%A2%E3%81%AE%E5%A4%9C?sort=f&order=d

MBAACC らぐ(Fシエル)vsハイスピ(CFワラキアの夜)大百科
Match Set of Ragu (F-Ciel) vs HighSpeed (C/F-Wara)

If someone could compile the vids and up to YouTube, that would be great.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: JSH April 12, 2012, 11:57:37 AM
I'm having trouble linking ja after 623b from otg
Any tips or advice?

It seems like I can't jump fast enough to hit the ja before the opponent techs
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: ehrik April 12, 2012, 12:40:13 PM
Awesome more highspeed!
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: Sashi April 12, 2012, 12:41:49 PM
Just gotta hold 9 after 623B and press A on the first possible frame. A little tight, but easily doable with a little practice.

EDIT: By the way, that video so poverty, it hurts.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: JSH April 17, 2012, 08:54:16 AM
Ah yeah I see seems pressing 9 instead of 8 helps haha
Thanks for the tip
Time to practice

Also, I'm guessing you can do the same thing off 623C right?
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB April 17, 2012, 05:30:55 PM
I'm having trouble linking ja after 623b from otg
Any tips or advice?

It seems like I can't jump fast enough to hit the ja before the opponent techs
This link...is utter bullshit. Some characters (eg nero) are EXTREMELY hard to followup w/ JA on. I want to suggest "practice more" but the timing really is just finicky as fuck. I thought the "changes to vector", or whatever, would make the link easier but nope. However, w/ some prior gravity added, the link does seem to be a tiny bit easier.

Awesome more highspeed!
you...get out.

But seriously though, what did you think about Highspeed's performance in this match up? IMO both players were playing way too reserved for no reason and our matches are seem to be paced differently from what I was seeing. I mostly curious as to what they were so afraid of.  :mystery:
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: ehrik April 17, 2012, 06:27:54 PM
Honestly I think Highspeed was playing too scared as well, matchup inexperience maybe? Probably too scared of the dmg she can do to him, and the way her daggers + 2b can shut down two important approaches for wara.

But the thing is Ragu wasn't spacing with 2b and 236b (and more importantly confirming with iad j.c!), but instead was doing dash 5a and spamming daggers. He also didn't take advantage of 5[c] being +1, the threat of 236b to catch jump outs, 4{b} 236a (was just doing 4{b} then random shit? wtf) and the fuzzy. Highspeed wasn't doing any heats anyways, or taking risks with shield. Could have just done it all day lol.

what im getting at is that highspeed shouldn't have been that scared of ragu fcl, he wasn't doing the REALLY scary stuff imo in that matchup. could have just done whatever

anyways this is all imo, maybe they were just trolling us!?
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB April 17, 2012, 07:00:02 PM
Ok, time for an F-Ciel Overview


Format
[Move Changed - Brief Description of Change]
(In-depth details of the degree of change)

{**My personal experiences and opinions about the change}



Buffs (Console to CC)

BE5C - Increased Air Untechable Time
Longer untech window opens doors to new combo possibilities (eg BE5C>2C) and some extra dmg.

2C - Recovery down
Recovering frames have been reduced a bit (forgot new duration). Not sure how this really helps her since throwing out 2C's outside of anything but a combo (or fishing for backstep using OS) will get her in trouble if whiffed.

**Don't know if it's just me but, I feel that this reduction has some how affected the ability to late cancel (e.g. 2C>delay 4C>236A etc.). In certain combo situations (eg post SC or an air CH hit), I'll try to do a late 4C and it doesn't come out at all AND if 4C is executed too soon, 236A followup whiffs. This has forced me to replace the delayed 4C w/ delayed 236B (2C>delay 236B>236A etc. **This actually gets more dmg!)

236A - Improved Hitbox
From the looks of it, the hitbox seems to be higher(?), allowing for combos, I'm almost certain, wasn't possible in Console (e.g. 236B>236A).

236B - Improved Hitbox
Hitbox is lower, hitting ALL characters when crouching. The hitbox however, does not extend to the extreme tip (fist). Comboing into 236B on characters in crouch state is now doable vs the entire cast.

**In addition, this complements her neutral game a ton allowing her to slip in flickers vs characters she wasn't able to do so against in Console. 236B is a very fast, has distance that rivals nero 4C, is air unblockable and +1 when guarded. Best and most significant buff imo

63214B - Lower Trajectory On Wall Bound
Lower wall bounce allowing for pretty much any combo follow up you can imagine i.e. this move has become usefull.

**2nd most significant buff imo. What more could you ask for? Oh, I know, HAVING THE WALL BOUND DIRECTION BE CONSISTENT. Yes, when throwing an opponent in the immediate corner, some characters are rebounded into the corner while other are bounced out. Good luck determining if your opponent is ONE PIXEL out of the corner when throwing them. Oh yeah, and have fun memorizing that list. Still a HUGE improvement from console.
*Supposedly ALL command throw strengths were made "stronger". Not entirely sure how A and C versions were changed and they look pretty much the same to me.

214C - Recovery shorter
Recovery reduced by 5-6F (was confirmed but forgot exact number).

**Helps her out a bit when trying to cover your ass using the 214B>214C series in neutral. The reduced recovery isn't enough reason to try and lame someone out carelessly with it as I had thought initially. So yeah, you can still get blown up for not accurately judging your opponent's positioning on screen.

214A - Start up and speed faster
Speed increased enough to combo a tip hit5C into 214A.

**In neutral, it's fast enough to snipe players a bit sooner than before, I guess. Not much has changed on how/when this move is used outside of new combo potential.

AD - Easier to connect the last hit
All hits connect in even the most absurd circumstances (including otg combos).

**Cool...but it still does ass dmg =/



Nerfs (Console to CC)

4C - Hitbox, untech time weaker
To draw a picture of how much the untech time was reduced: From a 1-Hit/tip hit 4C, landing a JC after is no longer possible.

**The hitbox still appears to be the same, but that untech time reduction is obvious. Harder to confirm easy followups from "awkwardly placed" 4Cs. Didn't realize how good this move was until comparing, side-by-side, the Console and CC versions.

J2C - Recovery increased
Increased landing recovery. Harder to follow up w/ strings and links on hit/guard

**Another side-by-side comparison that blew my mind. (J2C was a core part of my pressure and maybe some other players). It's still viable to an extent but certainly not as spammable. The new CH stun helps out a bit but in instances where it lands non-CH, you'd better be on point w/ the 5A/2A/5B link after.

5C - Damage down
Less dmg

**Meh.

Air Somer - Movement Restricted
Double Jump on whiffed or guarded J22A/B removed. Is now only permissible from hit.

**Well that sucks. No more SJing around like a retard trying to snipe players lingering above, only to double jump away to safety when it doesn't land. Oh yeah, and you can forget about using SJ J214A>J22B to reposition and scout opponents below to snipe w/ more knives. Lastly, timer scam is a bit weaker w/o this now =/

Air B Somer - Damage down
Less dmg.

**Meh. Oh wait, this less dmg trend is starting to add up!

J22A - EX Cancel on 1st Frame Removed (SECRET NERF)
In console, Fciel was able to EX Cancel J22A before the first active frame (which was frame 4, I believe?). No longer possible in CC

**Death of Somerheat...well at least the A version. It's IS however still possible to execute Somerheat using J22B but THIS IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT AND OFTEN RESULTS IN EXECUTION ERROR. Instead of the simple shortcut that gave you both 22A AND IH in a single button press, you now have to perform: J22B~5E~5C. Even if you possess the dexterity to exe this, the buffer results in inconsistencies. Somerheat was imo an extremely clutch and practical technique (with excellent meter management, it was possible to see one once a round). Someheat was deadly due to the fact that it was: 1) It was potentially a TRUE crossup (meaning it got around crossup protection), 2) One of the fastest, if not the fastest, "overhead" techniques available in the game, 3) Resulted in 4.5k~5k dmg on hit (assuming you followed w/ JC>214C or JC>5B), 4) Regenerated health while attacking (IH property) and, 5) Conditioned the opponent to guard high when in Max mode, allowing for other Somerheat mixups to be thrown into play.

**J214A - Landing Recovery Increased
Someone confirm from change list please. Can't remember if I read this somewhere before.



"Huh"

623C - Prorate and vector weaker
???

**Umm, to this day, I still don't know wtf this means. At first I assumed the "vector weaker" helped to make the JA link after a bit easier but it doesn't seem much different from Console.






-I feel like FCiel received a lot of "fake buffs" and received nothing truly significant outside of the 236B and B Coma changes

-Example of "fake buff"? BE5C increased untech time. Now this was supposed to improve comboability but ended up being a bust. Why? Because the 2B>BE5C loop that she gained is erratic as fuck. I'm assuming this was supposed to replace the "outdated" bnb but the BE5C loop is beyond compression (unless you can SEE pixels). Even the faster 214A sets this combo up w/ ease. Only problem is finishing it though

-Another (sort of) "fake buff": B coma throw having "favorable" trajectory on wall bounce...Except half the cast is bounding in one direction while the other half in the other direction. To make things worse, the direction of the bound is set according to whether they're in the immediate corner or not. So unless you can again, SEE PIXELS, going for the optimal dmg combo is going to be a mindfuck sometimes (I usu. go for 5C if things look iffy though =/)

-2C and Arc Drive changes were pretty damn fraudulent too.

-Other factors that hurt her game were overall decreased dmg. This doesn't bother me TOO MUCH as the majority of the cast got their shit toned down a notch.

-Another factor, GUARD DAMAGE REDUCTION. This hurts me a lot. J214C having guard dmg reduction was no biggie for me. After all, she was still able to keep advantage when guarded. What I don't like though, is how EVERYTHING pertaining to guard dmg was dropped (universally). BE5C, in particular, doing turds for guard dmg is like a slap in the face. This reduce has affected my gameplay in that players are able to turtle more/longer against Fciel. There's far too much effort involved now to break guard. Even if I am able to force my opponent to stay put (using Flickers, 623A and staggers), there's little to no reward.

-These nerfs may seem insignificant but become a problem when they add up, making Fciel slightly weaker from Console imo. Her core game remains the same but the reward is lower and as a result she doesn't feel as "cheap" this time around.

-Oh yeah, and after running tests some time ago for J22A, it seems that the EX Cancel point change on J22A (ONLY TO THE A VERSION, mind you) was blatant. Good shit Ecole lol.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: Beno~ April 17, 2012, 09:33:55 PM
Awesome more highspeed!
More highspeed getting bodied lol
Why does highspeed use tornadoes to much?
Shouldn't he be spamming roku summon.
I feel like both c-wara and f-ciel have bad wakeup options if you can just bait ciel's shield... and well Wara lol
So they just scared to get knocked down.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB April 18, 2012, 07:12:40 AM
Honestly I think Highspeed was playing too scared as well, matchup inexperience maybe? Probably too scared of the dmg she can do to him, and the way her daggers + 2b can shut down two important approaches for wara.
Well I sort of understand the match up inexperience thing but...the set was over an hr. long (and probably in a stress-free environment i.e. casuals). Don't see why he wouldn't bother to experiment w/ some techniques or shenanigans.

But the thing is Ragu wasn't spacing with 2b and 236b (and more importantly confirming with iad j.c!), but instead was doing dash 5a and spamming daggers.
Yeah, ragu's neutral is more solid now but man, was he playing super conservative. 236B was used sparingly and of course, I still saw no 2B's in neutral. I *think* the dash 5A's were to cover random dash ins and IAD's. not sure how effective this is though

He also didn't take advantage of 5[c] being +1, the threat of 236b to catch jump outs, 4{b} 236a (was just doing 4{b} then random shit? wtf) and the fuzzy.
Yo, realtalk, Highspeed wasn't trying to see the 4B mixups. He blocked correctly EVERYTIME (both the 4{b}>236A and BE4B variations). Ragu could have taken advantage of fuzzy more though. I mean she has the meterless JC>double jump>airdash>JA fuzzy that works on wara (and nero).


what im getting at is that highspeed shouldn't have been that scared of ragu fcl, he wasn't doing the REALLY scary stuff imo in that matchup. could have just done whatever

anyways this is all imo, maybe they were just trolling us!?
Yeah, I wish I knew enough JP to actually ask them both wtf they were looking for in this match set because I was confused for the most part. They weren't playing bad per se but at the same time I feel the match wasn't being played out too it's fullest from both sides.




Why does highspeed use tornadoes to much?
I don't think tornadoes are too bad if you play smart w/ them. They're safe when blocked and it's hella easy to confirm dash/SJ B into combo on hit.

Shouldn't he be spamming roku summon.
Nope. Literally the one time he tried to use Nanaya, he was stabbed full screen by 623C. His summons in neutral aren't even in the slightest hard to punish.

I feel like both c-wara and f-ciel have bad wakeup options if you can just bait ciel's shield... and well Wara lol
So they just scared to get knocked down.
Here's the thing: ciel's only wake up option (22C) doesn't lose to meaty 2A. Wara on the other hand...both 623C and 236C are punishable on reaction if a meaty 2A is on him (shield cancel out or reversal)
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: Fishduck October 06, 2012, 06:24:45 AM
What should I do for corner pressure? I've mostly doing the 5A5A 5B 5C 214C and then follow up with an A flicker, but that always puts distance.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: AARP|ZTB April 18, 2013, 06:24:56 PM
I'm sad I just now found out about these. Some BnB/semi-neta combo vids by Ragu of varying difficulty from easy to advanced. Use http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html (nico redirector) if you dont have account.

Difficulty: Free
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18256923

Difficulty: Hmmm. . .alright
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18257872

Difficulty: Goddammit!
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18258418

Really wish he varied up the training dummy for these because Nanaya is one of the "easier" characters to do some of these loops and extenders on. Most of it is still practical though.

What should I do for corner pressure? I've mostly doing the 5A5A 5B 5C 214C and then follow up with an A flicker, but that always puts distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djikd2OWLJ8
Yeah, this is late...

A lot of it is still applicable (save the Shadow Snipe spam and some of the armor strings). Hope this gives you some ideas though.
EDIT: Actually, Shadow Snipe spam still has valid use but the reward is smaller now due to tweaked guard bar in CC.

rip broke f-ciel
: Re: [MBAACC] F-urry Discussion Thread
: Sashi April 18, 2013, 07:05:10 PM
How does the double flash kick stuff work? Gravity, position, character dependent?
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB April 18, 2013, 07:25:41 PM
How does the double flash kick stuff work? Gravity, position, character dependent?
All three actually lol. I used to have a list somewhere (in one of the threads I think or in my notepad) for the variance among the cast but off the top of my head iirc Nanaya, Kouma, Nero, Tohno, and Ries were the easiest to do it on in that the number of hits (gravity) didn't affect the difficulty of the combo dramatically. Other characters you had to do a specific starter that usually involved fewer hits, different air combo sequence, and/or slowing down the air combo (position) to land double somer. Used to know this stuff off the top of my head but when you don't use it. . .

Also...why in the HELL was this thread named "F-urry"?! Fuck outta here with that nonsense!  >:(
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Zero April 21, 2013, 02:44:54 AM
2aa 5b 2b (3b) 2c 236b 236a 5b 236b IAD j.c land j.bc dj.bc22b airthrow

BE4b 214a 2c 236b 236a 2c 236b 236a 5b 236b IAD j.c land j.bc dj.bc22b airthrow

Combos look to be universal (besides necos) and seem to generate more damage than 2c 4c 236a combos.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB April 21, 2013, 10:37:20 AM
Yeah the 2C>236B>236A variant definitely generates more damage than 2C>4C>236A and switched up to using that a ways back. On top of netting more damage, it seems more consistent than 2C>4C>236A for some reason (I think there were some changes made to how 2C and 4C can be canceled). Didn't know that TWO reps of 2C>236B>236A was possible though. That's good stuff. Don't know why JP players (outside of Ragu) still aren't optimizing damage with this character. :mystery:

Also, vs Necos, Wlen, Satsuki, and Tohno, Fciel can get in some messed up 5B>2C loop against them (I've gotten up to 5 reps in AA). Still works in CC from what I remember but I never bothered to modify the loop (throwing in 236B>236A in place). Here's what it looked like in AA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b0YzVmdDG44#t=150s





http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b0YzVmdDG44#t=150s
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Zero April 21, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
5b 2c either puts them too high or too far for 236b 236a variants to happen. Would have been cool to squeeze out more damage with it though.

On another note I got 3 reps of 2c 236b 236a to work on Tohno off a j.214c starter.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB April 21, 2013, 01:49:41 PM
You know you can 2C>delay 236B right? That should solve the "too high" issue. don't know how the issue with hitting them out too far would be resolved though. Sounding like the original combo (5B>2C>delay 4C) would still be best for this situation though. Also, Tohno's hitbox is super free to some really messed up juggles. In AA I was running some nasty semi-charged 5C juggle variants and 5B>2B>236A variants on him. both which are EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to do or impossible to do on the rest of the cast. So much for the hero of the story lol.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Zero April 21, 2013, 02:33:45 PM
Oh, the "too high" part was referring to just me failing to hit with 2c after the 5b. It's probably off certain starters I assume. Since I fail to do 5b 2c 4c against Tohno I did some testing on WLen instead. I tried BE4b 214a 2c delay 4c 236a 5b 2c delay 4c 236a but that was as far as I got and she techs out. I might not be delaying enough or something.

2c 236b 236a loops still look better unless you want to swag and get more meter.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB April 21, 2013, 03:21:23 PM
Yeah, it's one of the silly pixel-height juggles where you have to wait until their just about to hit the ground then scoop up with 5B (sort of like CKoha 2a>2c pick up stuff). Having more hits before the launcher makes it a bit easier to get a sort of rhythm with the 5B juggle. Keep in mind though that after every rep the timing will be slightly earlier than the last each rep due to gravity increase.

I want to play this game again T-T
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Zero May 05, 2013, 07:53:39 PM
2b 5[c] delay 236a 2c 236b 236a 5b 236b IAD j.c air combo

Looks to be optimal off raw airthrow to both midscreen and corner. Works off shield counters and BE4b 214a too but triple or even double rep 2c 236b 236a is more worth it if you can get it off.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB May 06, 2013, 09:06:37 PM
Please don't quit this character after two weeks like everyone else. It's lonely having no one to talk to T-T
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Fishduck May 07, 2013, 07:01:54 AM
I'm still CIEL strong.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB May 24, 2013, 07:21:25 PM
Archive of Impromptutorial from today. Covers special moves in-depth. Broken up into three parts. Enjoy and please stream stuff people.

http://www.twitch.tv/isthismugen/c/2329145 [FIXED??]

http://www.twitch.tv/isthismugen/c/2329278

http://www.twitch.tv/isthismugen/c/2329393

EDIT:
Twitch is being weird, just press refresh a few times if vid starts without sound.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB May 27, 2013, 11:21:11 PM
@5:30mins in
http://www.twitch.tv/isthismugen/b/409235560
sexy fuzzy I stumbled onto yesterday
lulzy stuff @10:30min in
thinking about making a vid for other fciel fuzzy tech I've got locked away. enjoy 240p for now :(
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Inso May 28, 2013, 01:49:14 AM
Good stuff, Zar! Nice song choice also. There are not many Ciels since her downfall from AC =x

Any chance you'll put everything together for an ultimate Ciel tutorial video in the future?
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB May 28, 2013, 07:19:17 AM
Good stuff, Zar! Nice song choice also. There are not many Ciels since her downfall from AC =x
Outside of having the same sprite, I don't really consider F-Ciel to be anything like AC (or even Crescent) Ciel in the slightest. Different tools, different mindset. That's just my take on it though.

Any chance you'll put everything together for an ultimate Ciel tutorial video in the future?
eeehhh not likely lol. Was pretty disappointed w/ how the series I put together turned out. Very few people became interested in the character after the fact and the info I provided wasn't used outside of my own gameplay. Also, you had players starting out fresh w/ F-Ciel coming up to me asking "how do you do so and so?" when just about EVERYTHING they inquired was already provided in the tutorial series (which lead me to believe that people were just passively viewing the movies). Outside of learning about new editing software and having fun with the editing process, the project itself was a complete waste of time. Not doing that again. Streaming stuff with me dicking around w/ the character is less of a headache and my expectations are lowered.

That being said, I do have 2-3 short clips in mind for the future lol.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Inso May 28, 2013, 08:21:03 AM
Oh yeah, sure, by downfall I only meant that she was never as relatively strong as in that game.

Well, I can see how having no fresh Ciel players would make you lose your boner after all that work. =/

As far as people not seeming to pay attention to the videos, it's no surprise to me I guess. I place little faith in other people, thus I don't usually write stuff because appareantly readind is hard. But content has purpose even in these situations, cuz when someone asks about something you've covered in a video/article, instead of explaing to them from square one you can say "watch this and come back when you have a REAL question". If they can't even do that, their heart is not in it anyway.

Anyway, I asked just because I know two people who are into Ciel.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Fishduck May 28, 2013, 09:46:23 AM
I actually prefer to view the commands on the forums, and if I can't figure out how it's supposed to look, I'll go to a video as a visual aid. The only real question I Had Was About pressure, to which the link you sent was helpful  I aoprecieate everyone.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB May 28, 2013, 11:52:26 AM
But content has purpose even in these situations, cuz when someone asks about something you've covered in a video/article, instead of explaing to them from square one you can say "watch this and come back when you have a REAL question". If they can't even do that, their heart is not in it anyway.
Yeah what's funny is that I had people come up to me with "oh cool vid, cool music..." (I hate the second comment btw because the content is what's important) "...how do I do xyz?". Then I just give them a blank stare (...Didn't he just say he watched the vids??). Got that on three separate occasions :/

The only real question I Had Was About pressure, to which the link you sent was helpful  I aoprecieate everyone.
Cool. Just glad someone could make use of the content provided in some way.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Zero June 15, 2013, 04:35:13 PM
Are 236b IAD j.b land 236a combos corner only? Also is there a trick to getting that IAD j.b 236a to hit more consistently or is it just all grind?
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: AARP|ZTB June 16, 2013, 09:29:40 PM
I tested the bnb vs the cast but somehow forgot to compile the list of results. I just know that for about half the cast 5hits BEFORE 236B is the MINIMUM number of hits needed for the IAD JB to land properly. Against other characters, youre going to need at least 6hits before the 236B (some characters even more!)

the common starter I use is:
2A>2A>5B>2B>5C  - then >236B>IAD JB>land>236a>etc.

The characters I usually practice on are Seifuku, Akiha Tohno, and Arc as these characters are barely hittable with the JB using the above starter.

Every other character you may have to dash in and mash 2A/5A a few times to up the gravity in which I say to just use an alternative bnb altogether. This combo is moderately difficult IMO and is definitely worth going for against characters it can be executed against using standard starter. I'll probably post up a hit/miss chart in a bit.

In other news, I have some ridiculous shadow snipe combos that deal 6K on most of the cast. I'll post up the vid of a stream I did earlier today. Combo is moderately difficult I feel as well...As long as you can get past the annoying-as-fuck 2B>5[C]>236A pickup part (worst damn combo extender you could give to a character in this game :/ )

EDIT
http://www.twitch.tv/isthismugen/c/2436762
~0:38:40
Game was running at 56-57 fps (running multiple apps) so I dropped a lot of babies on this  :nyoro:

EDIT 2
Seems twitch ate up my vid for the JA fuzzy. Guess I should have highlighted it  :bricks:. May stream a 15min demo of it again in the future. Oopsies to anyone looking for that info perchance (...probably no one though lol... :( )
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Zero June 17, 2013, 04:24:56 PM
Don't know why I never thought of using TK j.214c for combos. That's some nice damage if I don't burn my meter often in some other situations.

Knowing the 5 hit minimum for half the cast really helped land more consistently. Thanks for that.

Other note, I've gotten j.c 2c 236b 236a 5a 5b 236a 2c 236b IAD j.b land 236a to work on VSion but the first 2c had to be pretty close for the 5b to connect. It only works on characters that you can hit the second 2c on but it feels like a nice extender if you want to go for some flash or grind that extra damage/meter.
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Tonberry November 21, 2014, 05:45:18 PM
Fuzzy wuzzy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KLsYkNKnOU  :laffo:
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Tonberry November 21, 2015, 06:00:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4mp8n8oJ74

More info
Melty Bits bnb is ok to start out with if you have trouble with the harder combos or if your opponent is mining bitcoins.

For the rest of the "advanced" bnbs just pick whatever one you have the easiest time executing since the damage difference isn't significant between them.

IAD flicker loop doesn't work vs everyone, don't have the list yet of who it works on.

Ending TK shadow snipe bnb with flicker is a good alternative to deciding between air combo for damage, air combo ending in j214c for knockdown, and 236a ender for oki. 

623b relaunch fails against some characters.  Use 623b airthrow against Kouma, Arcueid, Warc, Nero

Troublesome BE5C loop x2
5473

2A>2A>5C>A KNIFE>[2B>BE5C>Delay A FLICKER]x2>2C>4C>236A>5B>5C>AERIAL
***x2 = Execute notation in brackets [ ] twice
***Can begin combo w/ 2A>5B. For whatever reason, the space it creates seems to make the Delay 236A land more consistently FROM MY EXPERIENCE.


More Annoying Variant of Loop x2
5668

2A>2A>5C>A KNIFE>[2B>BE5C>Delay A FLICKER]x2>2C>4C>A FLICKER>5B>5{C}>
A FLICKER>5A>5C>AERIAL
***{ } = Slightly charge (or half charge) the 5{C}
***x2 = Execute notation in brackets [ ] twice
***Can begin combo w/ 2A>5B. For whatever reason, the space it creates seems to make the Delay 236A land more consistently FROM MY EXPERIENCE.

These combos are way too inconsistent, I just put it in the video for science.

Corner BE4b combo shown also works midscreen against some characters, don't have a list yet.

Use closer to corner 63214b combo against characters in the corner that don't get thrown out of it.
(too many damn characters in this game)

B command throw specifics (character backed in IMMEDIATE CORNER/no space)

OUT

Shiki T.
Aoko
Nanaya
Ciel
Sion
Ries
Vshi
Warachia
Roa
Mech (all)
Vermillion
Akiha
Seifuku
Nero
Hisui (all)


IN

Ancestor
Kouma
Miyako
Warc
Saint
Arc
Satsuki
Len
Ryougi
Shiro
NAC
Kohaku (all)
Neco

Airthrow j236b sometimes makes the 236b hit OTG.

7 hit safejump - Tohno, Hime, Nanaya, Miyako, Ciel(not 22c), Sion, Vsion, Warachia, Roa(not 623c, all moons), Akiha(fails vs c 63214c), Arc, Pcl, Vakiha, Mech, Seifuku
Satsuki, Ryougi(must 5a on reaction to 236c, dash on reaction to 214c, can do 5a and then 236b if it's hard to tell the difference, trades with H 22c), WLen, Hisui, Kohaku

??? safejump - Ries, Kouma, Warc, Len, Nero

jB fuzzy works on - VAkiha, Seifuku, Akiha, Kouma, Ciel, Nero, Warachia
jA fuzzy combo works on Ryougi, Hisui, Mech, Warc, Kohaku, Sion, VSion, and the whole jB list.  The j214c only hits once and doesn't give you a combo in the corner. 

Lesson 2 coming 2016 or never, this seriously took way too much time/effort.  :laffo: :laffo: :laffo:
: Re: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)
: Sashi November 24, 2015, 12:01:03 PM
Yearly tribute to Zar.