MBAA : Ciel General Discussion Thread

[COD3player]

I don't really mind if EX Hiero is truly gone, because I'm guessing they can replace it by making EX Blade Sinker a more useful move, since EX Blade Sinker is trash. Just make EX Blade Sinker an untechable launch and problem solved. Therefore it would have EX Hiero properties on hit but without the fullscreen coverage.

[Chie Satonaka]

Ok, I'm just gonna say this. I'm really LOVING the changes they're making to the games system and all, but some of the stuff I saw from the loke test really made my blood boil and HF can vouch for me when I say this:

*Taken from Relunx's post in the MBAA thread

Ciel:
 - ciel got uber nerfs and minor upgrades
 - 5a ANIMATION CHANGE, SMALLER HITBOX
 - dash is unchanged
 - 5a6a range NERF
 - 2b range NERF
 - airthrow HUGE FUCKING NERF (techable airthrow, Ciel recovers SO MUCH SLOWER)
 - more ciel nerfs 5c5c cannot 5d after
 - new CIEL BUFFS CIEL GAINS 3B and 3C (she stands on her hands and starts kick u upside down with her legs, moves her forward)
 - 3c is 2c2c's 2nd 2c BUT it flies you into the air like instantly
 - 5C IS ANY CANCELLABLE like 5c5a
 - crescent ciel still has hiero and the animation changed
 - ciel has no more 4 way due to airthrow nerf
 - full moon: she shoots 3 keys at 45 degrees that travel full screen they can't hit someone standing still
 - punch super (something that resembles nanaya knife slashes)

IMO, the first bullet should read "Got uber nerfs and NO upgrades"

I'm gonna start out with the worst possible nerf she could've gotten and by far the most unnecessary: The Airthrow.

OMG WTF were they thinking when they decided this. Her airthrow wasn't anything broken and it lead to the main part of her game...MIXUPS. Also her mixup options seem very lacking, but I'll get into that later. The simple fact that the recovery is nerfed so bad and she can't do 4 way due to that is pathetic and the fact that its techable was just a slap in her face. What's the point of doing her airthrow now if she's put in a BAD situation. Not only does it removes a HUGE chunk of her mixup game, but also her high lows are virtually gone thanks to that bullshit. Also...what was the point of making the recovery SLOWER when they already butchered it by making it techable and making 4 way useless thanks to that. Are they seriously trying to make C-Ciel the Sean of MB now...because they're doing a pretty good job.

Next, I'll talk about probably the best thing C-Ciel has going for her and thats her dash. Its sad because its EXACTLY the same like it is now...hey atleast I still get to hear people saying that Ciel is "clashy clashy clashy"     

Now one thing I don't get is the 2B nerf....of all the things to nerf, why nerf the range? I really didn't find any reason to nerf the range of it, unless they nerfed the vertical range making it less of an AA. The horizontal range on it wasn't anything to brag about, no longer than most average moves I mean and IMO if they wanted to nerf her 2B...remove the clash frames, make it even slower, and prorate the damage Ver.A style. Don't nerf the range of the move when it didn't need it.

Now not being able to shield cancel after 5CC is somewhat understandable. I mean, it did make her damage output retarded especially if she got in a J.2C or even a J.C so I can see that happening. Although I think unless they make the recovery longer on the 5CC she'll still be able to do the 5CC>5A link which would make her a {somewhat?} harder character...I guess. Either do that or atleast don't rape her damage output like it was back in Ver.A/Ver.B PS2 days....that was terrible.

Now while most people would disagree/flame me for this I'll just come out and say it. Why the fuck is 5C RBable? It seems very random, out of place, and very much uneeded. I mean...WOOPIE she can 5C>5A now...NOW lets make this game look even more ridiculous than what it already is. IMO, they could've given her a well more deserving buff.

Now she has gained a few moves so I think I'll get into those and talk about the nerfs/final thoughts later on.

3B. I don't really know what to say about this move except,  if it is the move described in the parenthesis then I see some very interesting things with this move. Very possibly could be the alternate to her 2CC mixup and could even lead to opportunities beyond that so I should be grateful for that atleast.

Now lets talk about 3C...with this being the 2nd part of her 2CC I wonder if her 2CC is changed completely of its just 2C? Now that being said...why did they fuck up this move so bad? I mean, its obvious she launches herself too high to make the Ver.B2 2CC mixup pretty much impractical/impossible, but with that also goes her mixups. Are they getting rid of all the tools she currently have to do wonderful mixups, because if so...they're doing a great job. Atleast give her the best guard crash potential in the damn game.

Hiero. Now I wonder if she still have the EX version or does it mean just the A/B version. If so....I really could careless. I mean...I find it retarded that they make the most useless hiero (236A) even more useless by adding more startup. That said, I wonder what did they do to her B/C version and if they do still have the C version I hope they nerf it so all the bitches in this country that play the game can quit complaining about it. She already have enough nerfs to deal with, but I guess everyone just wants that AND her 236C to be nerfed or gone altogether.

I'm not really sure what to say about her being able to throw black keys at an 45 degree angle, except I hope it works like her J.214A/B. Her new EX....I'll have to see it before I can say anything about it, but so far sounds...OK I guess.

My Final Thoughts: Overall...C-Ciel has pretty much seen the end of her days as being "bullshit/easy mode/retarded/top tier" whatever floats your boat, but seriously...all the nerfs were unnecessary and just plain dumb while her buffs ranged from OK at best to just...why? I still plan on playing Ciel except I can be very sure it won't be C-Ciel. I still see F-Ciel having a craploads of potential with her and just how the games mechanics is coming along so I haven't or ever will give up hope for the curry hag, but I will say this.

Crescent Moon Ciel...can die in a fucking fire.

[COD3player]

I know there are a lot of senseless Ciel haters out there, so if there are any posts that are either uncivil or add nothing constructive to the discussion, they will be deleted without question. This is your ONLY warning.

With that said, I will add more detailed thoughts on the known information later.

[scottind]

it doesnt sound senseless to me.

[Draku]

Yeah, her nerfs were ridiculous and definitely not all needed. She needed quite a few nerfs but nothing this damn serious.

[Xavori]

I'm curious about what happens if you airthrow someone very close to the ground, before when your opponent could tech out. If it has some interesting properties, I think it would push people to try to come up with a more ground based combo, like using tk j.236b, or the new j.623 moves.

[Relunx]

A non Ciel player:
Hi all! First of all I want to make it clear: This is my oppinion, I didn't play Ciel, I only fought her sometimes, so be tolerant about what I say, I try to not being rude, so here's my part about MBAA Ciel:
1. Dash is unchanged: It's like her signature, so ok. Np at all.
2. 2b range nerf: I'm a warc player, and only bothered me this move when I tryed to make air BR's. If I make a 2nd jump or a backdash, then a BR I can dodge her 2b move and my BR landed on Ciel's face. - disagree with this modify
3. 5a animation changed: it's useless to nerf this
4. 5a6a range nerf: agree
5. Airthrow huge nerf: agree only with the techable part, it's kinda annoying to block about 3/4 of the match due to ciel's pressure...
6. 5c5c cannot 5d: modifyes the dmg output, well, hoestly it not matter much for me, ciel always does huge dmg cuz she good at mixups, BUT I can still win against her regardless of dmg so: not agree with this.
7. 3c, well she got back her old 2c2c...
8. 5c is any cancellable: I think this is good...but if I'm wrong then correct me...
9. Hiero animation changed: HUGE agree if they changed the C version's animation. It's very annoying when Ciel hits you while you are in the middle of an EX move...she can counter any of your moves...don't misunderstand me, I'm only saying there is no other char that would attack you while you are performing an EX move (I know there is bunker, bara etc, but not an EX move that totally ignores anything AND attack you, plus after you can continue the hiero with a combo...)
10. ciel has no more 4 way due to airthrow nerf: well I still don't understand this thing..someone can explain me this plz...tnx.
11. full moon: she shoots 3 keys at 45 degrees: an anti air technique, sound promising
12. punch super (nanaya slashes): well, this sounds promising too

Relunx

[Xavori]

:3 Ex Ciel player, but common Ciel opponent... though I still wouldn't trust my information.

2. 2b range nerf: I'm a warc player, and only bothered me this move when I tryed to make air BR's. If I make a 2nd jump or a backdash, then a BR I can dodge her 2b move and my BR landed on Ciel's face. - disagree with this modify

Clash dash or EX Hiero, if your second ring is too predictable. I'm wondering if 2B range nerf means that it loses its teleporting properties... ((Put two Ciels face-to-face and have them both 2B))

3. 5a animation changed: it's useless to nerf this

All 2A and 5A attacks were nerfed.

6. 5c5c cannot 5d: modifyes the dmg output, well, hoestly it not matter much for me, ciel always does huge dmg cuz she good at mixups, BUT I can still win against her regardless of dmg so: not agree with this.

But she lost her mix-ups. See airthrow. In addition, I've seen more than a few matches where Ciel purposely delays the 6AA catch so that the combo not only invalidates, but completely ends, netting around 5-6000 damage total. Very techable, but the opponent is sometimes too scared or too used to a valid combo that he or she won't try to tech. One occurrence was in one of the West Toast matches, actually.

8. 5c is any cancellable: I think this is good...but if I'm wrong then correct me...

5C range is too long for me to see any use of cancelling the move if it hits an enemy towards the end of the hitbox, but since AA Ciel air combos are a nono, maybe combos will use >5C>214BBB or something.

10. ciel has no more 4 way due to airthrow nerf: well I still don't understand this thing..someone can explain me this plz...tnx.

There are technically two "Ciel 4-way after airthrow" 's.
-If you do the IAD motion after an airthrow out of a corner, you will jump and dash at the same time, putting you at the exact location where your opponent landed right as they get up. Since j.B has a hitbox behind Ciel as well, she has the option to hit overhead, low, or crossup overhead or low.
-If you throw the opponent and j.236A, you can 2CC mix-up, j.B>dash>j.C, j.B>dash>j.A>throw, or j.B>dash>j.B>throw.

11. full moon: she shoots 3 keys at 45 degrees: an anti air technique, sound promising

But no one uses j.214BBB, and personally, 4C is a more viable option for anti-air. However, these upward keys seem better fit for zoning. In addition, with all of the Warakia buffs and his 3-hit j.C and air katto, maybe they'll see some use if someone wants to beat an aerial attack instead of clash with it. What would be really cool is if it were a possible combo finisher with a ground- or un-techable knockdown.
EDIT: O_____O It's three simultaneously, and there's both upwards and downwards versions. Downward hits fullscreen.

[scottind]

Went to Club SEGA today and played MBAA! 2 setups for versu, and 1 setup for playing CPU only

a lot of her old bnbs are gone, or people havent been using them. most here aren't using 2b in their comboes when launching into 5c but seems hard to catch her air combo simply because ciel doesnt float as well as she used to be. 2b is still decent, but not as abuseable as i use it for.

yeah the wait to play was like 20-30 minutes of standing in line, so i only played once and the people in the versus line were fucking cutting, was hardly a line to begin with...

graphically seems the same, a lot of new stages, and and old stages from AC.

[scottind]

oh yeah damage was very low, comboes average out at 1900-2200

[DarkSaint]

*pokes head in thread*

Orz............wth did they do to Ciel.
Full on nerfs, although my brain is already working out ways to use cancellable 5c.
Hopefully the other 2 versions are better

*Goes back to playing my mmo*

[COD3player]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUh6UJDXnrA Also cross-posted in the video thread.

This match showcases her Full Moon moveset and it's obvious that both players were just testing things out. A hell of a lot more informative than the few Ciel vids that were released some time ago. As can be seen, she has a lot of new animations, many of which are punch-based.

General Observations:
-A new command dash, this is indicated by the trail of shadows.
-A lot of these new punch moves just look like variations of her shield bunker. I've seen one that hits low and another mid. The super variant is essentially just like Nanaya's 236 moves.
-2A is an elbow attack, similar to Aoko's. Very little range. I wonder if it hits high enough to stuff moves that have lower body invincibility though.
-2B is a crouching horizontal slash that moves her forward and has a little startup but some considerable delay.
-5C(?) is a backfist. Also has a charged version.
-Her j.B is a punch angled downward.
-Her j.C is basically the 2nd part of her old 2BB (ie. the Terry Bogard C+D attack).
-Retains old aerial black keys commands and variants.
-Retains old 4C, not sure about clash frames.
-Retains the 4B->236B axe kick into command throw. Command throw no longer wallslams.
-The upward black keys throw looks like it could be good for covering space. The downward variant shortly after that could be an extension.
-214A (214B?) produces the same effect from the 2nd hit of the old 5CC.

Things I noticed from the video:
0:26 - Command dash has clash frames.
1:53 - the j.C fails to hit Sacchin when she crouches. Though it hits her at 3:08.
1:56 - EX aerial black keys is only one hit? Or do more hits ensue if that one connects?
2:51 - Another look at her backfist attack. She steps forward and attacks. I wonder if it has any evasive properties.
2:59 - A charged version of the backfist? Only she's holding a knife this time.
3:10 - A super throw?

Doesn't look like they changed the artwork for her post-victory screen. :\ No full-length combos/bnbs were performed so I wonder what kind of combos she can do in this mode. Pretty interesting though and I hope there's more footage in the near future.

[Chie Satonaka]

Just a bit of theory fighter here~

Looks like with her superthrow (Which just made me love Ciel even more      ) It looks like she can STILL get some type of four way in unless she can't dash after the throw :'( and her new dash throw makes me wonder if they will make it have a long enough untechable time to make it comboable like Arc's. Even if not it will still make for a good heat setup.

Looks like she can STILL get full screen CH black keys BNBs off which makes tossing out 214s a viable tactic even with this mode. I'm not too sure what to think of her j.214s. I guess the A version still is still has the same effects like Ver.B2 Ciel, her B version is pretty much the same and her C Version...summons a shadow O.o? Maybe for some good obscure oki or even FG setup?

Its still clear that these vids are just to show off new stuff so there's not really much to say about her combo capabilities.

[scottind]

General Observations:
-Dash now has a trail of shadows.
-A lot of these new punch moves just look like variations of her shield bunker. I've seen one that hits low and another mid. The super variant is essentially just like Nanaya's 236 moves.
-2A is an elbow attack, similar to Aoko's. Very little range. I wonder if it hits high enough to stuff moves that have lower body invincibility though.
-Her j.C (I assume that's what it is based on the sound effect) is basically the 2nd part of her 2BB.
-Retains black keys.
-Retains 4C, not sure about clash frames.
-Retains the 4B->236B command throw. 2nd command no longer wallslams.
-The upward black keys throw looks like it could be good for covering space. The downward variant shortly after that could be an extension.
-214A (214B?) produces the same effect from the 2nd hit of the old 5CC.

Things I noticed from the video:
0:26 - Dash clash is still in.
1:53 - the j.C fails to hit Sacchin when she crouches. Though it hits her at 3:08.
1:56 - EX aerial black keys is only one hit? Or do more hits ensue if that one connects?
2:51 - Another look at her backfist attack. She steps forward and attacks. I wonder if it has any evasive properties.
2:59 - A charged version of the backfist? Only she's holding a knife this time.
3:10 - A super throw?

Doesn't look like they changed the artwork for her post-victory screen. :\ No full-length combos/bnbs were performed so I wonder what kind of combos she can do in this mode. Pretty interesting though and I hope there's more footage in the near future.

the dash is still the same, the shadowy dash is a command move, and needs to be option-select to the grab or a backjump-black-key combo and something else. i think it was a jump-dive. otherwise its invulnerable.

but yeah this is the first i've seen a F-Ciel who knew what the moves were, and did some comboing.

[COD3player]

A command dash that has a preset number of followups? I wonder how that will work out.

Theory fighter~
Since there were no real combos shown, I'm guessing one that might work is 2AB5B2C 4C j.BC dj.BC air throw. This is assuming that 4C and 2C work the same way and it looks like they do.

I also wonder what the command is for her backfist attack. The video shows that it can be comboed into and comboed out of.

[Chie Satonaka]

HERE'S TO HOPING CIEL GETS A REAL OVERHEAD                 

Actually here's a few things I noticed just recently in that match.

Its not that her normal dash still have clash frames its actually her command dash. Failure-chan 5A'd which clashed causing giving her the option to do her normal throw.

And thanks to HF for pointing this out, but its seems her J.B and J.C has switched "roles" with J.B being more of an angled attack, while J.C is more horizontal.

[COD3player]

Theory Fighter~
Now that 214A causes the same effect as the old 5CC, it might be possible to do a shield-cancel style relaunch if timing is correct and spacing permits. Her 5A animation hits downward so I'm not sure if that would work, but it might considering that the opponent is falling anyway. 2A could possibly work as well since it's now an elbow and it hits higher off the ground than her old 2A did. In the corner, it looks like if you're close enough, you can relaunch with 2C. Though the Ciel player didn't, it looks like he could have. The 214A combos nicely off the backfist (5C?) at least on cornered opponents.

If I had to guess, the backfist is her new 5C which replaces the old sword stab because it's similar in that she moves forward a bit before attacking. It also has a charged version. Overhead? Let's hope so.

The "air throw" from the command dash looks like it induces wallslam. When it was performed, the other player did not tech out, and it looks like he had plenty of time to, but he didn't tech until hitting the ground. If the wallslam is really untechable, it might be possible to relaunch ala Arc. I wonder if this built-in throw from the command dash will catch airborne opponents.

[scottind]

you know what, i take back what i said before, this F-Ciel is terrible.

the command dash is 214A

[COD3player]

The command dash is 214A? Does this mean that her black key throws are now a 236 motion?

[scottind]

from my memory, the diagonal throws were 421 but yeah the command dash was 214 and i didnt really follow up on it so i didnt bother. 236A/B is the yamazaki bunker strike, and 236C is the nanaya EX.

btw HF, you wern't at AI last night were you?

[Chie Satonaka]

from my memory, the diagonal throws were 421 but yeah the command dash was 214 and i didnt really follow up on it so i didnt bother. 236A/B is the yamazaki bunker strike, and 236C is the nanaya EX.

btw HF, you wern't at AI last night were you?

Then what is her standard knives input then 

[scottind]

421A straight. B diagonal1, C diagonal2 i think. i guess we'll find out on the 19th thats when CLUB SEGA arcades gets MBAA official release.

[COD3player]

Yeah, I wasn't at AI last night.

Hrm...kinda weird that a projectile motion would be 421. I can't get over the super throw. She flips even more times before throwing them. lol Thankfully it's untechable.

[CloudTK]

I don't know if this was pointed out, sorry if I'm just reiterating old information.

But in the video of Ciel vs. Sacchin, Ciel in Full Moon style; Her Super throw takes meter before the flash. Does that mean she'll lose meter even before it's executed?

[COD3player]

Somewhat detailed writeup.

Finally, some Ciel matches on the geesendou channel, starting at 3633.

Other observations about Crescent Ciel:

3633
6:41 - 5CC still looks like it's special cancellable.
6:45 - Old 2CC? The second part doesn't look like it goes as high as it used to. Unless the higher one is a new command
7:19 - Air throw. She kinda stays there as she throws them. Opponent didn't tech so it's unclear as to whether they can be tech punished or not.
8:09 - 3B(?) can be chained into.
8:31 - 2C hitting as anti-air?
8:39 - 2B looks like it has roughly half the range it used to.

3634
10:17 - air movement still allowed after air throw.

3635
0:28 - chargeable j.2C
9:49 - Aerial 623 Blade Sinker.
9:56 - 2AA2B4C 2C5C j.BC dj.BC throw. Possibly the bnb of choice for Crescent. Old combo.
10:16 - Movement options allowed after air flash kick.

3636
0:41 - 22B has the same properties it seems, whiffs crouchers no matter what.
0:55 - A closer look at the air throw. It seems she falls straight down instead of backwards.
1:01 - You can chain moves from 3B(?).
1:06 - ~4K damage meterless combo from crossup j.B.
2:53 - 623A range decreased. Barely goes anywhere it seems.
9:49 - You can still chain attacks from j.236B.
10:29 - j.236B still looks pretty safe on block, but it looks like the player tried to jump so he got hit by the 2C.

Half Moon Ciel observations
3634
5:15 - Dash looks as quick and covers as much distance as it did in MBAC.
5:16 - Old 6AA. So 6AAA combo is still in.
5:18 - Backdash looks like it's the same from cm. Half the distance covered.
7:00 - 5A4C 2C5C j.BC dj.BC throw combo. The opponent does not tech the air throw, but the Ciel player does j.C while falling to possibly punish a forward tech.
7:15 - Hi EX Halo. Doesn't launch them as high making it impossible to followup as discussed before.

Edit: j.236A still in, properties are the same.

The match quality obviously isn't very good, but I'll take what I can get as far as new material is concerned. I'm wondering about this chargeable j.2C. It might actually be an overhead. The new 3B looks pretty funky and I wonder what other properties it has. Even if it isn't overhead, I think it might be able to dodge lows judging by the kind of move it is. With the loss of shield cancel, 5CC as combo filler seems best when they're crouching or in the corner so I guess it's gone back to the days of MBAC ver.A in that regard, but it's still special cancellable. 623B-> EX Halo still works so I'm guessing with the proper timing, relaunch is still possible. Better hit confirm skills are probably required now that 2B's range is kinda nerfed, maybe 3B will be a good substitute since it seems to move further than 2B. And since you can chain out of it, 2C might work just fine. Combowise, it seems that she's gone back to MBR style. The 2CC in the first match didn't connect, but if it did then old 2CC mixup might still be possible. Wasn't it 3C that made her go much higher than before? I'm not sure. No one ever teched against the air throw, maybe she falls fast enough to tech punish. I'm guessing if you see that they don't tech, you can still apply the old school high-low air dash mixup from the previous games. Tech window is pretty small so it shouldn't be overly difficult. And since the camera zooms out now, you can see when they land from the air throw.