MBAA : Ciel General Discussion Thread

[AkiraTheMastodon]

ciel's 236C for H and C feels a bit like it has longer recovery time, and the opponents land a bit further away than they used to

[COD3player]

3641
This is more of an exhibition for HM than anything. Notable changes:
3:35 - 6AAA no longer wallslams.
3:44 - Even without wallslam, it's still possible to combo off the 6AAA in the corner.
4:25 - 236B into a j.2C followup? Is that even 236B? Or is it just a normal jump?
4:34 - New j.A? Hits upward while she's holding a knife.
4:56 - You can chain attacks out of 6AAA. 2C was used in this case, but it whiffed.
5:28 - Judging by this little combo, it might be possible to link or chain into 2C after midscreen 6AAA if the last A has a big cancel window.
5:31 - Maybe a closer look at 236B (if that's what it is because 6AAA wasn't jump cancellable before).
9:24 - Dash still looks pretty fast. In another vid it looked like it had some startup before it actually started moving forward a lot. I think that was the video with the final boss.
9:34 - Seems hm also gets the 3B from cm.
9:40 - 5C can chain into 4C. Maybe other normals too.

3652
Another demo match. Nothing too special aside from trying out combos with the ability to chain out of 5C.

3655
3:47 - What exactly is this? New 236A/B? It looks pretty neat, a great way to close the distance and resume pressure. Reminds me of Guy's Bushin Leap from the SFA games.
5:41 - 4C into 2C is now considered reverse beat? wtf?

3655
0:50 - Looks like her air back dash goes farther now.
1:25 - New corner combo: 2AA3B5C4C j.BC dj.BC throw
1:59 - A meterless ~4K bnb off a j.B.

This match blows. The Ciel player was winning big only to lose it. 2A spam ftl.

3657
10:35 - Notice how the auto circuit spark from the opponent's HM usage was not triggered by the EX Halo.

DOUBLE EDIT:
3659
6:22 - 3B chained into 2B is counted as reverse beat. Ok, WHY THE FUCK did chaining into another move of the same button strength qualify as reverse beat? Seriously. The new rule might be chaining a command normal into a regular normal now.
7:52 - A super double jump?

TIPLE EDIT:
3660
3:52 - New j.B can crossup?
4:32 - 5A can now hit Wara when he's crouch blocking. It wasn't possible before.
5:30 - Both hits of 2CC hit the blocking opponent. Notice how she doesn't go as high on the second hit. This means that 2CC mixup is might still be possible against cornered opponents.
6:54 - Old full screen black keys into 236C combo still works.
8:00 - 214B->4A->4B combos at closer distances at midscreen.
9:03 - j.2C somehow manages to crossup.

3661
0:11 - Air movement after air flash kicks allowed in HM.
1:04 - Why are there 3 RBs in this combo? It started with j.B and then went to 2A and the first RB display appeared witht he 2A.
4:32 - A really weird otg combo.
7:30 - The air throw is teched for the FIRST time.
7:39 - The air throw is teched AGAIN, this time forward. Though she wasn't punished after it, it looked VERY probable.

QUADRUPLE EDIT:
3662
1:20 - ABSOLUTELY GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! 623B connects and the Ciel player cancels into 236C to punish. It doesn't work, and DIES because of it. This is proof that auto spark is NOT punishable, by ANY stretch of the imagination. FORGET about baiting circuit sparks, it doesn't matter. YOU WILL GET PUNISHED BECAUSE YOU BAITED AND TRIED TO PUNISH THEM. WHAT.....THE......FUCK!!!!

3653
Finally, a FM match.
9:42 - New 3B also available in FM.
9:41 - The blockstring here does a noticeable amount of damage to the guard gauge.
That's about all I got out of this match. It was pretty terrible. And once again, no real combos were shown. 5C into snake arm does a respectable amount of guard meter damage by the looks of it.

EDIT:
3657
The second round of this match seems like it was an opportunity for the FM player to test things out.
4:48 - Has the ability to throw 3 knives at a downward angle. Not part of a series.
5:44 - 2AB5C 214A combos.
5:55 - Same combo used as above but allows for 2C relaunch against cornered opponent.
Apparently you can chain 2B into 2C like normal, but this player never used it to start a combo. wtf But for christ's sake, the other guy let him test stuff out in round 2 and he couldn't do a proper bnb! WHAT THE HELL!!!!


I hope sometime in the near future, there's a demo match of her FM. I really want to see what that mode is capable of.
Shield bunker looks like it costs 100% meter.

Another change I noticed but forgot to add, is that all her j.236 attacks seem to go at a steeper angle instead of 45 degrees.

So far, I still don't see anyone teching out of the air throw. Not even midscreen where it's 100% risk-free. I wonder why that is. All reports up until now have stated that her air throw is techable but there have been a bazillion air throws and not a single opponent has teched it. That one video where it looked like the player did a falling j.C to attempt a tech punish, now it seems possible he might have missed his air dash input and wasn't trying to tech punish at all. Something has to give.

[Chie Satonaka]

Ok after watching 3664 with hCiel vs. fNanaya and cNanaya I really don't know what to say. I mean, the Ciel player was actually doing pretty decent and WON A GAME  but all and all I just can't help, but to see her as gimped in every way except having more tricks. It seems to me they just decide to make cCiel a shittier MBAC incarnation, hCiel a shittier MB:R incarnation (with more tricks), and I really can't say much about fCiel with no good quality match vids of her and the surface of Full Moon hasn't even been touched yet. People say that Ciel is already ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ in MBAC now and I really disagree. Now if people want to say cCiel and hCiel look pretty boring I really can't help but agree because she does look rather boring. Now fCiel I can honestly say from seeing the first fCiel match I feel as though she's OOOZING with potential with all the new shit she's gotten...too bad no one is willing to stick with the style or character so much <_<.

I guess I'll a full report whenever I see a good fCiel in these matches. Until then, HF Blade is doing a REALLY good job with all the detailed info on cCiel and hCiel.

[Zaelar]

The falling j.c after the airthrow could have been to cut recovery.

[COD3player]

A short update.

hCiel:
3663
3:40 - 6AA can be used to relaunch after a 6AAA connects in the corner.
5:55 - 4C doesn't relaunch after a corner 6AAA, or the timing is more strict.
6:24 - Super double jump. This caused the combo to fail though.
Surprisingly enough she won this match.

3664
2:15 - Another look at the "Bushin Leap." I suppose this is the closest Ciel will get to having a real overhead since she still has not command overhead or instant air dash.
3:38 - 6AAA late cancelled into 236B->236C combo.
6:20 - The new j.A looks like it has more reach than the old one.

EDIT:
3673
8:38 - 5A now hits crouch guarding V.Akiha. This leads me to believe that the 5A hitbox has been increased.

[COD3player]

Small update:

hCiel:
3691
9:42 - For the first time we see Ciel retain her momentum after throwing an aerial black key.
10:41 - 2CC on hit doesn't launch really high anymore. Acts more like a regular hit.

3692
0:51 - 2C3C? launches higher than 2CC but not as high as old 2CC. Air combo is possible since she goes higher.

[Pfhor]

QUADRUPLE EDIT:
3662
1:20 - ABSOLUTELY GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! 623B connects and the Ciel player cancels into 236C to punish. It doesn't work, and DIES because of it. This is proof that auto spark is NOT punishable, by ANY stretch of the imagination. FORGET about baiting circuit sparks, it doesn't matter. YOU WILL GET PUNISHED BECAUSE YOU BAITED AND TRIED TO PUNISH THEM. WHAT.....THE......FUCK!!!!

Veteru says that his japanese friend says that you can throw circuit sparks during their recovery.

Anyway you are overreacting, baiting a circuit spark (by whiff canceling or something) will still set the momentum back to neutral and it is preferable to getting hit by the spark.

[COD3player]

So far I haven't seen anyone punish circuit spark recovery with a throw, because everyone's too busy getting hit by them trying to punish with a 2A that triggers the auto spark. So auto sparks are punishable by throw and not strikes? Also whiff cancelling isn't fool proof because if you are whiff cancelling, chances are that you are in range to get hit by the spark more often than not. As far as I can tell, moves in MB don't have any weird kinds of invincibility outside of lower/upper/complete body invincibility (ie. strike invincibility but vulnerable to throws). If you can find a specific time index in a match then I'll believe it. So far there are 2 examples of sparks being completely strike invincible but not necessarily vulnerable to throws.

[Chie Satonaka]

Throw the bitches

Seriously, I'm not seeing anyone baiting circuit sparks in order to punish them often enough and seeing that Veteru's friend said you can punish circuit sparks with throws which would require you to bait the circuit spark...which again doesn't happen very often. So instead of aiming to bait a circuit spark just punish the bitches with throws. Lets look at the advantages here: I've personally saw A LOT of situations where they punished a move with a simple 2A and BLAM! circuit spark....Soooooo, instead of just going for that 2A go for the throw. It swings momentum in YOUR favor instead of having it neutral. Also you're doing a lot more damage they can't recover while in heat. On top of swinging momentum your way they're not gonna purposely get hit by a meaty (But I've seen matches where people would purposely do a punishable move and circuit spark so dunno) so instead they're gonna block (you want them to do this) so you can...TICK THROW and still keeping them in heat, doing damage they can't recover, AND keeping momentum in your favor. I'm hoping I'm not the only one thinking like this.

[Pfhor]

I haven't seen anybody bait a circuit spark and throw either, I'm just going by Veteru's word there.

Also of note:
Some info Tropsy found on a jp message board:

(12:22:20 AM) Tropsy: new top tier info from the mbaa thread
(12:22:24 AM) Tropsy: again don't blame me if it's wrong
(12:22:29 AM) Tropsy: but apparently half moon CS is SHIELDABLE

[Zaelar]

No.

Why wouldn't someone with an auto-spark wakeup dp?  Then wakeup throw when that starts getting baited.  This is assuming your opponent's punishing options consist of 1 hit to force the auto-spark or throw and is void if they can punish the spark's recovery.

And if spark is shieldable...activate blood heat, 2a them, jump, ex shield xx auto pain.  If it's the same as in mbac it does a lot of chip damage even if they can block it.  Not something you can rely on to be available all the time but something to put in a day 1 "combo" video.

[Chie Satonaka]

No.

Why wouldn't someone with an auto-spark wakeup dp?  Then wakeup throw when that starts getting baited.  This is assuming your opponent's punishing options consist of 1 hit to force the auto-spark or throw and is void if they can punish the spark's recovery.

You're right. Why wouldn't someone with an auto-spark wakeup DP? It sounds REALLY safe on paper, wakeup DP KNOWING the other person is gonna get 2A. Well I see problems with this on BOTH sides. (Assuming the "DPer" is playing HM)

The DPer: Just because they have the ability to auto-spark really doesn't mean much here. He's STILL taking a risk of the DP getting blocked in the first place. So purposely doing a DP in this case really isn't the best thing (Like I've seen a Nanaya do) since you're still taking a risk not of it being blocked, but also how is he gonna punish. "Is he gonna punish with a 2A or throw" I'd think that would go through peoples head...Anyways, lets say the DP gets blocked the "punisher" have two options.

He can 2A and attempt to bait the circuit spark (which again based on the vids we've seen this doesn't happen too often and if it does its neutral) or the punisher can just throw, simply keeping momentum in his favor, and don't have to worry about him gaining health, AND have the opportunity to do damage they can't recover with more throws of course because attacks trigger circuit sparks. Now if it does get to the point where they wakeup throw like you suggested they would...something would be wrong the "punisher's" part now would it?


Now look at the "punisher": Just because this is in a Ciel sub-forum we'll say the punisher is Ciel. Ok now Ciel just blocked a DP, lets see how she can punish this. Since I already went over the scenario with her throwing, lets do this with a 2A or even better. 236C. First lets do 236C, Like HF stated in his post...Ciel tries to bait it with TWO-THREE-SIX SEE!!! and what happens....Every hit whiffed and she died because of it. So we're gonna scratch that. Now you stated if it's shieldable to activate blood heat, 2A them, jump, ex shield and auto pain. Let me ask you a question....Even in MBAC how often do you see anyone do A SINGLE 2A (Because thats all you get in MBAA) and jump out in time to avoid the circuit spark altogether...not that often. Hell baiting CS's in MBAC doesn't happen THAT often enough to even make that a practical tool in MBAA. Maybe I'll think otherwise when I see people bait the CS and ACTUALLY PUNISH THAT rather than just bait the CS and can't punish because of the invincibility

[COD3player]

More hCiel observations:
3736
4:17 - 3B>5B is a RB but 3B into any C strength attack is not.
5:28 - Just ANOTHER example of when the opponent should have punished with a throw instead of an attack.
5:51 - Yet again, j.B into landing 2A shows a RB. Is linking a ground attack after a jump-in a RB or was the player just pressing the A button too fast? I remember in MBAC if you press a button of weaker strength in the air too soon after a blocked air attack, the attack won't come out but it will have read the input thus considering it a RB.
6:10 - j.C after the "bushin leap." This makes me wonder if this j.C is really punishable. It doesn't look like it should be if the j.C is considered the same as a normal air attack, which means all landing recovery should be negated.
6:28 - "bushin leap" j.2C into pressure.
6:34 - 5B, still the ever so reliable normal for tech punishing.
6:49 - 2AAB6AA3B5C2C.... A dropped combo but showcases that 3B can be neatly inserted into combos.
7:26 - "bushin leap" j.C into 2AB.... Another dropped combo. I've seen this happen on several occasions and it seems that 2B will 1-hit the opponent in this situation usually. My guess is in order to get a full combo out of this situation is simply to cancel 2B immediately after the first hit.

3739
10:16 - 2AB6AA3B5C2C4B. Another dropped combo. But it shows that 2C will combo off a 5C even after all the hits that preceded it. I have no clue why they keep doing 4B to set up the air combo part though, I'm pretty sure they're trying to do 4C but it might be a slight error on their part.

3749
1:59 - Finally, a complete bnb, I knew all along that this would work out. This will probably be the bnb of choice for hCiel: 2AAB6AA3B 5C2C4C j.BC dj.BC throw. It only uses 1 RB and does roughly 3600 damage.
2:11 - The same combo as above except it starts with a j.C and uses one less 2A. Seems to work against standing opponents as well but this one was done in the corner.
3:24 - The bnb works perfectly fine midscreen as well.

Ciel finally wins some matches. It's been forever since she has and thank god it was against that damned Akiha. Like 85% of all match vids as of late have been Akiha and lately there have been a lot of Akiha mirrors as of late too. Ugh. Well enough of that. The quality of play is better than most Ciel matches up until now.

I have yet to see anyone tech against the 236C, but I don't see why it wouldn't be techable. Even if they tech away from her I don't think she can punish them unless she has enough meter for another 236C. But if it is untechable, I guess that's to compensate for the inability to follow it up. The new bushin leap, err....Hiero moveset looks pretty interesting. With the ability to j.C and j.2C out of it, it's a nice way to keep cornered opponent's from getting too hasty to find a way out. The j.C from the leap most likely hits overhead and it looks like this is the closest we'll get to a true overhead for Ciel. The cool thing is it covers a lot of distance and will most likely avoid many low pokes. I'm also glad to know the bnb I've had in mind for a while actually works based on these matches.

[Pfhor]

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8pw4l8jPE

At around 9:50, you see Ciel do a valid otg after ex hiero. So that would mean it is untechable in the air and ground and could possibly be an alternative to airthrow which doesn't seem to give her much setup at all. Although I have yet to see her do a j.236b after a airthrow to punish but it might work.

[scottind]

At around 9:50, you see Ciel do a valid otg after ex hiero.

at least its way toned down compared to MBAC. for that, i'm glad.

[COD3player]

3749
Brandino pointed this out earlier, but take a look at what happens at 9:11. Anyone have any idea what it is?

[Pfhor]

It looks like the last hit (the one that is the untechable knockdown) of ex hiero happens when ciel is on screen. Since that hiero was a tech punish, and it locked onto the position nero was before he teched, the last hit whiffed at first but when nero tried to attack ciel it counterhit him.

That's my best guess, it could be like the last hit of wara's AD in MBAC, an unblockable fullscreen hit or something.

[COD3player]

A Ciel infinite: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4800818
Thanks to Psylocke for the link.

It basically goes like this in the corner: string->5CC-> 214[A]xn. The style shown is CM. It looks pretty dumb I'm going to have to say. The 214[A] looks like it freezes them long enough so that you can throw out another one. I didn't even know that 214A was chargeable because almost all the Ciel matches so far have been HM.

[Chie Satonaka]

Am I the only one not liking the idea of her having a brain dead infinite? I mean giving her a brain dead infinite just to compensate for having practically every useful tool she has nerfed doesn't really sit well with me. Her OTG loop was fine I guess because it wasn't really an infinite, its character specific, and it took SKILL (I know Ciel and Skill shouldn't go in the same sentence hur hur) but this is....

W/E I don't even know why I'm rambling on about this.

[lain102300]

This might just be Warakia specific.

[Chie Satonaka]

This might just be Warakia specific.

I hope so

[Pfhor]

Am I the only one not liking the idea of her having a brain dead infinite? I mean giving her a brain dead infinite just to compensate for having practically every useful tool she has nerfed doesn't really sit well with me.

You are talking like this is intentional, it obviously is not, because it BREAKS the game.

[Chie Satonaka]

Am I the only one not liking the idea of her having a brain dead infinite? I mean giving her a brain dead infinite just to compensate for having practically every useful tool she has nerfed doesn't really sit well with me.

You are talking like this is intentional, it obviously is not, because it BREAKS the game.

Not that I was making that intentional in the first place, but..............

Hey, as far as I'm concerned if it IS intentional, not only work on Warakia, but the entire cast, AND that brain dead easy...they just tossed us a fucking bone. THANKS A LOT TYPE MOON FOR NERFING EVERY PRACTICAL THING SHE HAS WHILE GIVING US THAT SOMETHING RETARDED EXCUSE OF AN INFINITE!!!!!!!1111ONEONEOENOENOENOENOENOE

[scottind]

i'm gonna do this on all you motherfuckers lololololol

Ciel for lyfe!!!!!!!!!

now maybe i can actually buy the MBAA cuz thisll drive the price straight down.

[COD3player]

Tried F Ciel today...
214A is a regular black key throw, tried charging it but nothing happened.
214B is three black keys thrown into the air. (Hi Sakuya)
214C is three black keys thrown downward. Meaning no EX for her 214.
236A is a quick fist jab at the opponents legs. (Hi Yamazaki)
236B is a quick fist jab at the opponnts head.
236C will do a fist jab horizontally, I didn't get a chance to actually try this on someone though.

623 is still blade sinker, and 22 is still ciel somersault, j.214 key throws still here,  her j.236 is still there as well.
I didn't get a chance to try out her dash junks though.

She has 3B in this form. That...kick thing...

F Ciel can just do like 2ABC 4C -> aerial blah blah as a bnb