MBAA : Ciel General Discussion Thread

[COD3player]

With the recent MBAA loctest over the past few days, new information has been pouring in. The following information is taken from the MBAA thread:

Ciel:
-Has a new move, looks like Nanaya's 236A/B/C
-Can throw three black keys up into the air
-Seems to have some wierd EX-move that looks like it starts of like her bunker and then adds a few hits
-gets an aerial version of her 623
-airthrow techable
-loses her HEEL OVERHEAD
-loses shield cancel on her 5cc

Thoughts/Impressions:
I wonder if this new move that looks like Nanaya's 236 series replaces her own 236 series. Would this mean that 236C is gone? I wonder because I've always thought it would be removed at some point considering how good it is; a big target for nerfing/removal. Throwing 3 black keys up into the air sounds kinda cool but I wonder how it works, whether she throws them upward at a 45 degree angle, straight up or something. A new EX move that looks like her bunker? Can't really say too much about that. Aerial 623, I wonder if it travels straight just like her ground 623.

Techable air throw sounds like it could hurt her mixup game a bit. Is it air techable or ground techable? Logically I would think it's ground techable just because up until this point there hasn't been an air throw that can be teched in the air, only on the ground. Loss of 4B overhead doesn't sound like too much since I don't really use it anyway. Losing shield cancel after 5CC could hurt her damage output a bit, so I get the feeling we might have to return to MBAC ver.A bnbs, unless the 5CC still retains its special cancellable properties (5CC -> 623B -> air combo) or if it's still possible to link a dashing 5A after the 5CC.

Additional info to be posted as it's revealed. Post your thoughts/impressions.

[Rudi]

Gaaah, why?

Looks like they want to balance out the characters and don't want Ciel to be the best player again -__-

Let's just hope for the best, and I have on certain occasions (MBAC Ver.B) connected a 5A after the 5CC without a shield cancel. But it was rare.

[COD3player]

Well if Ciel isn't the best character again, I wouldn't really mind too much because I've been playing her forever. Since MBR, MBR: FT, and MBAC PS2. imo I think she had it worst in MBAC ver. A. 236C could be circuit sparked out of iirc, 2B was air blockable, and she relied heavily on rebeats to keep up pressure which killed a lot of her damage potential. In ver. B, it is possible to link 5A after 5CC without the shield cancel and yeah, it's pretty hard.

[Rudi]

I doubt they'll limit combo damage especially if each character has styles to choose from (Offense, Defense) and it depends on what style the player picks which will limit his options. I hope they improve her pressure game since it sucks in MBAC Ver.B

[Lolly]

its worth noting that alot of the movesets vary from style to style. Most of the information from the gamechariot post was taken from a crescent style Ciel. She still has her heiro moveset, altho its mentioned the EX (air?) version is unconfirmed. It also sounds like she cant jump cancel the first hit of her 5c anymore.

Also, j.214a keeps aerial inertia now (think akiha air ribbons). Could be interesting

[COD3player]

Oh yeah, moves can change between styles. I suppose in Crescent style, even the old bnbs go out the window if 5C is no longer jump cancellable. Looks like it might be replaced by 4C if that's the case.

Well the only other issue left to address from her ver.B incarnation are her clash frames. She has plenty of them and I get the feeling they will be altered again. They already removed them before and gave them back. I suppose a way to balance them out would not be to remove them but merely decrease the number of clash frames for each move.

Retaining air momentum with j.214A sounds interesting especially if you can still special cancel the recovery into her other air specials.

[Rayza]

If they take away her ground oki mixup, that leaves ciel playing with blockstring mixups, throws, and fuzzies, it'd suck if her air throw became techable, because Ciel is so high up there'd be no good tech punish setups either. She at least deserves a combo-able overhead (think Sion 6b) if they keep all this kind of stuff. Then again, she might gain very powerful zoning with her new AA knives, but I'd be sad to see Ciel rushdown toned down this hard.

[Frostbolt]

Its all perfectly fair if she loses all this. Ciel at the moment has SOOOOO MANY GOODS and very little bads, so its time to balance

[Rudi]

Oh...

I presume that since airthrows are now techable, wouldn't a tech punish be to use the aerial 623A/B/C move? I guess that would be the tech punish?

[COD3player]

Based on the information provided so far, I don't think all air throws are now techable, but hers definitely is. At least that's how I understand it.

To compensate for the weakened air throw, a faster standing overhead would be nice considering that [4B] was crap (and it's gone, thankfully) and she would have high-low mixup while approaching from the ground instead of being limited to strike-vs-throw.

[S-Blade]

Its all perfectly fair if she loses all this. Ciel at the moment has SOOOOO MANY GOODS and very little bads, so its time to balance

not really. we're hearing a lot of buffs coming from a lot of other characters and only a ton of nerfs for Ciel, and although Ciel was bullshit overall she was still not largely better than the rest of the cast. I heard (in irc a few days ago) that she lost her 2cc mixup which i thought was perfectly fine because she still has her after-airthrow mixup+crossup, but now she's been robbed of that as well, ALONG with hiero. meanwhile, v.sion, an already good upper tier character, gets really hot buffs like midscreen summons and faster summons and sacchin gets more grabs and (as far as we know) no change to her air throw which means she still retains her deadly 4-way mixup. meanwhile ciel loses three critical parts of her game.

the only thing that lets me sleep is that this is just a loke test and these changes we've been seeing aren't thorough lists so there could be a lot of better things we aren't seeing and even then it's all subject to change

[COD3player]

Hrm, judging by the sound of the above information, Ciel has virtually zero mixup potential at this point. ZERO. I'm all for balancing characters but taking away the core elements of a character's metagame without anything to compensate for them would be poor design all-around. More light has yet to be shed on how exactly her new moves work and I wonder just how much mixup potential they will grant.

[c-nero 5[c]]

nanaya gets by with zero mixups just fine

deal w/ it

[COD3player]

Ok, but Ciel is NOT Nanaya. I don't think any of us want her to play like Nanaya, otherwise we'd all be playing him. But as mentioned above, she has a move that looks like his 236 series. Eh.......yeah. <.>

[scottind]

yay ciel = nanaya

i also heard ciel lost her ex heiro

[COD3player]

As mentioned above, she has. Though it's not clear whether that applies to only the Crescent style or all styles. From my understanding, it sounds like characters either gain additional moves and/or new properties on existing moves depending on the style.

[scottind]

ok well then, back to my original point-

ciel = nanaya

^_^

[S-Blade]

maybe her new playstyle is gonna be some crazy zoning shit where she pressures you from full screen with knives until you guard crash (crush?)

which wouldn't be that bad really, but would definitely fall a couple tiers. high tier these days is either good damage with fucked up mixup game (like testament?) or i guess right hit you once massive damage (slayer jam pot yun makoto list goes on lol). zoning characters....not so much. lol

[Chie Satonaka]

I'm not really liking how Ciel is turning out here. On paper she sounds like Ver.A Ciel without damage or mixup options so...

So I'm just gonna wait on speculating Ciel till we see match vids.

[Xavori]

Before I start, forgive my lack of structured thought.


I think that most of these changes are because of the Guard gauge. Ciel's the only character with a projectile combo, no? And most of these changes seem to be increasing her hit count ((Multi-hit bunker-y thing and Nyanyaya's slashes)) as well. However, my question now is, after she Guard Crashes someone, how much damage will her best BnB deal?

Ciel has 421 and 63214/624 commands open. I have a feeling the aerial keys will be 421, since it's close to 214. ((I'm imagining giving them and Mech Hisui's jetpacks clash frames and listening to the cacophony.)) Anyways, 63214 is still open for the Nanaya, and EX Nanaya could be the bunker... maybe...

Although it's far less effective than 2CC, what about Ciel's

2BB
  >j.236A>throw
  >j.236B
  >j.214A
  >j.214BBB

mix-up?

((Guh... too much Brawl. I'm imagining j.623 as something like Ike's side-B))

However, if Ciel really does drop to Neco-tier, I think it'll be interesting to get a large wave of really good players experimenting with the other characters.

[fecalpenance]

Well if Ciel isn't the best character again, I wouldn't really mind too much because I've been playing her forever.

hahah best character.. i knew u kids would catch up to me eventually... where can i find framedata/tier listings?

[S-Blade]

Anyways, 63214 is still open for the Nanaya, and EX Nanaya could be the bunker... maybe...

IIRC the mode she gets the move in (if not both) the command is 236a/b/c.

Which means she loses hiero.

[noradseven]

yay ciel = nanaya

i also heard ciel lost her ex heiro

woooooooo, this made my day.  Sorry but ex heiro is broke.

maybe her new playstyle is gonna be some crazy zoning shit where she pressures you from full screen with knives until you guard crash (crush?)

which wouldn't be that bad really, but would definitely fall a couple tiers. high tier these days is either good damage with fucked up mixup game (like testament?) or i guess right hit you once massive damage (slayer jam pot yun makoto list goes on lol). zoning characters....not so much. lol

you forgot tons of unblockables , eddie, which I don't see anyone in Melty getting this maybe Aoko if they change the properity of her orbs.

[COD3player]

Info taken from karp's report:

Crescent Ciel:
-5A animation change, smaller hitbox.
-6AA range nerf
-2B range nerf
-Air throw HUEG nerf. techable, recovers REALLY slow, opponent recovers REALLY fast. you HAVE TO INSTANTLY AIRDASH J.A AFTER TO MEATY
-5CC, cannot shield cancel the second C
-dash unchanged
-Gains 3B. she stands on her hands and kicks you while upside down and moves her forward.
-Gains 3C. looks like the second hit of 2CC but puts you into the air faster.
-5C is ANY cancellable. eg. 5C5A
-Retains Hiero.

Ok it's looking like air throw is still the biggest nerf. This means no more 4-ways at all. If dash is unchanged, I'm assuming clash frames might still exist. Also, if Hiero is still there, EX version might still be there as well. 5C having rebeat properties sounds kinda interesting and if it cancels into everything then that means it's still jump cancellable too. These new command normals sound kinda weird. 3B sounds like second hit of 2CC but it really isn't. Still no news on her knife throwing attacks.

[scottind]

as a ciel user, but i hate ex heiro, its probably the dumbest noobfriendly move i've ever encountered.

i'd prefer that ciel lost ex heiro in its current form, and hopefully had one that was a bit more balanced to the rest of the characters, preferably a complete nerf that loses its fullscreen-ness.