Melty Bread Forums
Atlas Academy => Melty Blood: Actress Again => Ciel => : COD3player July 06, 2008, 08:27:30 PM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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With the recent MBAA loctest over the past few days, new information has been pouring in. The following information is taken from the MBAA thread:
Ciel:
-Has a new move, looks like Nanaya's 236A/B/C
-Can throw three black keys up into the air
-Seems to have some wierd EX-move that looks like it starts of like her bunker and then adds a few hits
-gets an aerial version of her 623
-airthrow techable
-loses her HEEL OVERHEAD
-loses shield cancel on her 5cc
Thoughts/Impressions:
I wonder if this new move that looks like Nanaya's 236 series replaces her own 236 series. Would this mean that 236C is gone? I wonder because I've always thought it would be removed at some point considering how good it is; a big target for nerfing/removal. Throwing 3 black keys up into the air sounds kinda cool but I wonder how it works, whether she throws them upward at a 45 degree angle, straight up or something. A new EX move that looks like her bunker? Can't really say too much about that. Aerial 623, I wonder if it travels straight just like her ground 623.
Techable air throw sounds like it could hurt her mixup game a bit. Is it air techable or ground techable? Logically I would think it's ground techable just because up until this point there hasn't been an air throw that can be teched in the air, only on the ground. Loss of 4B overhead doesn't sound like too much since I don't really use it anyway. Losing shield cancel after 5CC could hurt her damage output a bit, so I get the feeling we might have to return to MBAC ver.A bnbs, unless the 5CC still retains its special cancellable properties (5CC -> 623B -> air combo) or if it's still possible to link a dashing 5A after the 5CC.
Additional info to be posted as it's revealed. Post your thoughts/impressions.
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Gaaah, why?
Looks like they want to balance out the characters and don't want Ciel to be the best player again -__-
Let's just hope for the best, and I have on certain occasions (MBAC Ver.B) connected a 5A after the 5CC without a shield cancel. But it was rare.
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Well if Ciel isn't the best character again, I wouldn't really mind too much because I've been playing her forever. Since MBR, MBR: FT, and MBAC PS2. imo I think she had it worst in MBAC ver. A. 236C could be circuit sparked out of iirc, 2B was air blockable, and she relied heavily on rebeats to keep up pressure which killed a lot of her damage potential. In ver. B, it is possible to link 5A after 5CC without the shield cancel and yeah, it's pretty hard.
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I doubt they'll limit combo damage especially if each character has styles to choose from (Offense, Defense) and it depends on what style the player picks which will limit his options. I hope they improve her pressure game since it sucks in MBAC Ver.B
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its worth noting that alot of the movesets vary from style to style. Most of the information from the gamechariot post was taken from a crescent style Ciel. She still has her heiro moveset, altho its mentioned the EX (air?) version is unconfirmed. It also sounds like she cant jump cancel the first hit of her 5c anymore.
Also, j.214a keeps aerial inertia now (think akiha air ribbons). Could be interesting
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Oh yeah, moves can change between styles. I suppose in Crescent style, even the old bnbs go out the window if 5C is no longer jump cancellable. :-\ Looks like it might be replaced by 4C if that's the case.
Well the only other issue left to address from her ver.B incarnation are her clash frames. She has plenty of them and I get the feeling they will be altered again. They already removed them before and gave them back. I suppose a way to balance them out would not be to remove them but merely decrease the number of clash frames for each move.
Retaining air momentum with j.214A sounds interesting especially if you can still special cancel the recovery into her other air specials.
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If they take away her ground oki mixup, that leaves ciel playing with blockstring mixups, throws, and fuzzies, it'd suck if her air throw became techable, because Ciel is so high up there'd be no good tech punish setups either. She at least deserves a combo-able overhead (think Sion 6b) if they keep all this kind of stuff. Then again, she might gain very powerful zoning with her new AA knives, but I'd be sad to see Ciel rushdown toned down this hard.
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Its all perfectly fair if she loses all this. Ciel at the moment has SOOOOO MANY GOODS and very little bads, so its time to balance
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Oh...
I presume that since airthrows are now techable, wouldn't a tech punish be to use the aerial 623A/B/C move? I guess that would be the tech punish?
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Based on the information provided so far, I don't think all air throws are now techable, but hers definitely is. At least that's how I understand it.
To compensate for the weakened air throw, a faster standing overhead would be nice considering that [4B] was crap (and it's gone, thankfully) and she would have high-low mixup while approaching from the ground instead of being limited to strike-vs-throw.
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Its all perfectly fair if she loses all this. Ciel at the moment has SOOOOO MANY GOODS and very little bads, so its time to balance
not really. we're hearing a lot of buffs coming from a lot of other characters and only a ton of nerfs for Ciel, and although Ciel was bullshit overall she was still not largely better than the rest of the cast. I heard (in irc a few days ago) that she lost her 2cc mixup which i thought was perfectly fine because she still has her after-airthrow mixup+crossup, but now she's been robbed of that as well, ALONG with hiero. meanwhile, v.sion, an already good upper tier character, gets really hot buffs like midscreen summons and faster summons and sacchin gets more grabs and (as far as we know) no change to her air throw which means she still retains her deadly 4-way mixup. meanwhile ciel loses three critical parts of her game.
the only thing that lets me sleep is that this is just a loke test and these changes we've been seeing aren't thorough lists so there could be a lot of better things we aren't seeing and even then it's all subject to change
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Hrm, judging by the sound of the above information, Ciel has virtually zero mixup potential at this point. ZERO. I'm all for balancing characters but taking away the core elements of a character's metagame without anything to compensate for them would be poor design all-around. More light has yet to be shed on how exactly her new moves work and I wonder just how much mixup potential they will grant.
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nanaya gets by with zero mixups just fine
deal w/ it
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Ok, but Ciel is NOT Nanaya. I don't think any of us want her to play like Nanaya, otherwise we'd all be playing him. :V But as mentioned above, she has a move that looks like his 236 series. Eh.......yeah. <.>
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yay ciel = nanaya
i also heard ciel lost her ex heiro
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As mentioned above, she has. Though it's not clear whether that applies to only the Crescent style or all styles. From my understanding, it sounds like characters either gain additional moves and/or new properties on existing moves depending on the style.
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ok well then, back to my original point-
ciel = nanaya
^_^
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maybe her new playstyle is gonna be some crazy zoning shit where she pressures you from full screen with knives until you guard crash (crush?)
which wouldn't be that bad really, but would definitely fall a couple tiers. high tier these days is either good damage with fucked up mixup game (like testament?) or i guess right hit you once massive damage (slayer jam pot yun makoto list goes on lol). zoning characters....not so much. lol
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I'm not really liking how Ciel is turning out here. On paper she sounds like Ver.A Ciel without damage or mixup options so... :psyduck:
So I'm just gonna wait on speculating Ciel till we see match vids.
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Before I start, forgive my lack of structured thought.
I think that most of these changes are because of the Guard gauge. Ciel's the only character with a projectile combo, no? And most of these changes seem to be increasing her hit count ((Multi-hit bunker-y thing and Nyanyaya's slashes)) as well. However, my question now is, after she Guard Crashes someone, how much damage will her best BnB deal?
Ciel has 421 and 63214/624 commands open. I have a feeling the aerial keys will be 421, since it's close to 214. ((I'm imagining giving them and Mech Hisui's jetpacks clash frames and listening to the cacophony.)) Anyways, 63214 is still open for the Nanaya, and EX Nanaya could be the bunker... maybe...
Although it's far less effective than 2CC, what about Ciel's
2BB
>j.236A>throw
>j.236B
>j.214A
>j.214BBB
mix-up?
((Guh... too much Brawl. I'm imagining j.623 as something like Ike's side-B))
However, if Ciel really does drop to Neco-tier, I think it'll be interesting to get a large wave of really good players experimenting with the other characters.
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Well if Ciel isn't the best character again, I wouldn't really mind too much because I've been playing her forever.
hahah best character.. i knew u kids would catch up to me eventually... where can i find framedata/tier listings?
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Anyways, 63214 is still open for the Nanaya, and EX Nanaya could be the bunker... maybe...
IIRC the mode she gets the move in (if not both) the command is 236a/b/c.
Which means she loses hiero.
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yay ciel = nanaya
i also heard ciel lost her ex heiro
woooooooo, this made my day. Sorry but ex heiro is broke.
maybe her new playstyle is gonna be some crazy zoning shit where she pressures you from full screen with knives until you guard crash (crush?)
which wouldn't be that bad really, but would definitely fall a couple tiers. high tier these days is either good damage with fucked up mixup game (like testament?) or i guess right hit you once massive damage (slayer jam pot yun makoto list goes on lol). zoning characters....not so much. lol
you forgot tons of unblockables , eddie, which I don't see anyone in Melty getting this maybe Aoko if they change the properity of her orbs.
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Info taken from karp's report:
Crescent Ciel:
-5A animation change, smaller hitbox.
-6AA range nerf
-2B range nerf
-Air throw HUEG nerf. techable, recovers REALLY slow, opponent recovers REALLY fast. you HAVE TO INSTANTLY AIRDASH J.A AFTER TO MEATY
-5CC, cannot shield cancel the second C
-dash unchanged
-Gains 3B. she stands on her hands and kicks you while upside down and moves her forward.
-Gains 3C. looks like the second hit of 2CC but puts you into the air faster.
-5C is ANY cancellable. eg. 5C5A
-Retains Hiero.
Ok it's looking like air throw is still the biggest nerf. This means no more 4-ways at all. If dash is unchanged, I'm assuming clash frames might still exist. Also, if Hiero is still there, EX version might still be there as well. 5C having rebeat properties sounds kinda interesting and if it cancels into everything then that means it's still jump cancellable too. These new command normals sound kinda weird. 3B sounds like second hit of 2CC but it really isn't. Still no news on her knife throwing attacks.
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as a ciel user, but i hate ex heiro, its probably the dumbest noobfriendly move i've ever encountered.
i'd prefer that ciel lost ex heiro in its current form, and hopefully had one that was a bit more balanced to the rest of the characters, preferably a complete nerf that loses its fullscreen-ness.
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I don't really mind if EX Hiero is truly gone, because I'm guessing they can replace it by making EX Blade Sinker a more useful move, since EX Blade Sinker is trash. Just make EX Blade Sinker an untechable launch and problem solved. Therefore it would have EX Hiero properties on hit but without the fullscreen coverage.
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Ok, I'm just gonna say this. I'm really LOVING the changes they're making to the games system and all, but some of the stuff I saw from the loke test really made my blood boil and HF can vouch for me when I say this:
*Taken from Relunx's post in the MBAA thread
Ciel:
- ciel got uber nerfs and minor upgrades
- 5a ANIMATION CHANGE, SMALLER HITBOX
- dash is unchanged
- 5a6a range NERF
- 2b range NERF
- airthrow HUGE FUCKING NERF (techable airthrow, Ciel recovers SO MUCH SLOWER)
- more ciel nerfs 5c5c cannot 5d after
- new CIEL BUFFS CIEL GAINS 3B and 3C (she stands on her hands and starts kick u upside down with her legs, moves her forward)
- 3c is 2c2c's 2nd 2c BUT it flies you into the air like instantly
- 5C IS ANY CANCELLABLE like 5c5a
- crescent ciel still has hiero and the animation changed
- ciel has no more 4 way due to airthrow nerf
- full moon: she shoots 3 keys at 45 degrees that travel full screen they can't hit someone standing still
- punch super (something that resembles nanaya knife slashes)
IMO, the first bullet should read "Got uber nerfs and NO upgrades"
I'm gonna start out with the worst possible nerf she could've gotten and by far the most unnecessary: The Airthrow.
OMG WTF were they thinking when they decided this. Her airthrow wasn't anything broken and it lead to the main part of her game...MIXUPS. Also her mixup options seem very lacking, but I'll get into that later. The simple fact that the recovery is nerfed so bad and she can't do 4 way due to that is pathetic and the fact that its techable was just a slap in her face. What's the point of doing her airthrow now if she's put in a BAD situation. Not only does it removes a HUGE chunk of her mixup game, but also her high lows are virtually gone thanks to that bullshit. Also...what was the point of making the recovery SLOWER when they already butchered it by making it techable and making 4 way useless thanks to that. Are they seriously trying to make C-Ciel the Sean of MB now...because they're doing a pretty good job.
Next, I'll talk about probably the best thing C-Ciel has going for her and thats her dash. Its sad because its EXACTLY the same like it is now...hey atleast I still get to hear people saying that Ciel is "clashy clashy clashy" ::) ::) ::)
Now one thing I don't get is the 2B nerf....of all the things to nerf, why nerf the range? I really didn't find any reason to nerf the range of it, unless they nerfed the vertical range making it less of an AA. The horizontal range on it wasn't anything to brag about, no longer than most average moves I mean and IMO if they wanted to nerf her 2B...remove the clash frames, make it even slower, and prorate the damage Ver.A style. Don't nerf the range of the move when it didn't need it.
Now not being able to shield cancel after 5CC is somewhat understandable. I mean, it did make her damage output retarded especially if she got in a J.2C or even a J.C so I can see that happening. Although I think unless they make the recovery longer on the 5CC she'll still be able to do the 5CC>5A link which would make her a {somewhat?} harder character...I guess. Either do that or atleast don't rape her damage output like it was back in Ver.A/Ver.B PS2 days....that was terrible.
Now while most people would disagree/flame me for this I'll just come out and say it. Why the fuck is 5C RBable? It seems very random, out of place, and very much uneeded. I mean...WOOPIE she can 5C>5A now...NOW lets make this game look even more ridiculous than what it already is. IMO, they could've given her a well more deserving buff.
Now she has gained a few moves so I think I'll get into those and talk about the nerfs/final thoughts later on.
3B. I don't really know what to say about this move except, if it is the move described in the parenthesis then I see some very interesting things with this move. Very possibly could be the alternate to her 2CC mixup and could even lead to opportunities beyond that so I should be grateful for that atleast.
Now lets talk about 3C...with this being the 2nd part of her 2CC I wonder if her 2CC is changed completely of its just 2C? Now that being said...why did they fuck up this move so bad? I mean, its obvious she launches herself too high to make the Ver.B2 2CC mixup pretty much impractical/impossible, but with that also goes her mixups. Are they getting rid of all the tools she currently have to do wonderful mixups, because if so...they're doing a great job. Atleast give her the best guard crash potential in the damn game. :-[
Hiero. Now I wonder if she still have the EX version or does it mean just the A/B version. If so....I really could careless. I mean...I find it retarded that they make the most useless hiero (236A) even more useless by adding more startup. That said, I wonder what did they do to her B/C version and if they do still have the C version I hope they nerf it so all the bitches in this country that play the game can quit complaining about it. She already have enough nerfs to deal with, but I guess everyone just wants that AND her 236C to be nerfed or gone altogether.
I'm not really sure what to say about her being able to throw black keys at an 45 degree angle, except I hope it works like her J.214A/B. Her new EX....I'll have to see it before I can say anything about it, but so far sounds...OK I guess.
My Final Thoughts: Overall...C-Ciel has pretty much seen the end of her days as being "bullshit/easy mode/retarded/top tier" whatever floats your boat, but seriously...all the nerfs were unnecessary and just plain dumb while her buffs ranged from OK at best to just...why? I still plan on playing Ciel except I can be very sure it won't be C-Ciel. I still see F-Ciel having a craploads of potential with her and just how the games mechanics is coming along so I haven't or ever will give up hope for the curry hag, but I will say this.
Crescent Moon Ciel...can die in a fucking fire.
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I know there are a lot of senseless Ciel haters out there, so if there are any posts that are either uncivil or add nothing constructive to the discussion, they will be deleted without question. This is your ONLY warning.
With that said, I will add more detailed thoughts on the known information later.
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it doesnt sound senseless to me.
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Yeah, her nerfs were ridiculous and definitely not all needed. She needed quite a few nerfs but nothing this damn serious.
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I'm curious about what happens if you airthrow someone very close to the ground, before when your opponent could tech out. If it has some interesting properties, I think it would push people to try to come up with a more ground based combo, like using tk j.236b, or the new j.623 moves.
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A non Ciel player:
Hi all! First of all I want to make it clear: This is my oppinion, I didn't play Ciel, I only fought her sometimes, so be tolerant about what I say, I try to not being rude, so here's my part about MBAA Ciel:
1. Dash is unchanged: It's like her signature, so ok. Np at all.
2. 2b range nerf: I'm a warc player, and only bothered me this move when I tryed to make air BR's. If I make a 2nd jump or a backdash, then a BR I can dodge her 2b move and my BR landed on Ciel's face. - disagree with this modify
3. 5a animation changed: it's useless to nerf this
4. 5a6a range nerf: agree
5. Airthrow huge nerf: agree only with the techable part, it's kinda annoying to block about 3/4 of the match due to ciel's pressure...
6. 5c5c cannot 5d: modifyes the dmg output, well, hoestly it not matter much for me, ciel always does huge dmg cuz she good at mixups, BUT I can still win against her regardless of dmg so: not agree with this.
7. 3c, well she got back her old 2c2c...
8. 5c is any cancellable: I think this is good...but if I'm wrong then correct me...
9. Hiero animation changed: HUGE agree if they changed the C version's animation. It's very annoying when Ciel hits you while you are in the middle of an EX move...she can counter any of your moves...don't misunderstand me, I'm only saying there is no other char that would attack you while you are performing an EX move (I know there is bunker, bara etc, but not an EX move that totally ignores anything AND attack you, plus after you can continue the hiero with a combo...)
10. ciel has no more 4 way due to airthrow nerf: well I still don't understand this thing..someone can explain me this plz...tnx.
11. full moon: she shoots 3 keys at 45 degrees: an anti air technique, sound promising
12. punch super (nanaya slashes): well, this sounds promising too
Relunx
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:3 Ex Ciel player, but common Ciel opponent... though I still wouldn't trust my information.
2. 2b range nerf: I'm a warc player, and only bothered me this move when I tryed to make air BR's. If I make a 2nd jump or a backdash, then a BR I can dodge her 2b move and my BR landed on Ciel's face. - disagree with this modify
Clash dash or EX Hiero, if your second ring is too predictable. I'm wondering if 2B range nerf means that it loses its teleporting properties... ((Put two Ciels face-to-face and have them both 2B))
3. 5a animation changed: it's useless to nerf this
All 2A and 5A attacks were nerfed.
6. 5c5c cannot 5d: modifyes the dmg output, well, hoestly it not matter much for me, ciel always does huge dmg cuz she good at mixups, BUT I can still win against her regardless of dmg so: not agree with this.
But she lost her mix-ups. See airthrow. In addition, I've seen more than a few matches where Ciel purposely delays the 6AA catch so that the combo not only invalidates, but completely ends, netting around 5-6000 damage total. Very techable, but the opponent is sometimes too scared or too used to a valid combo that he or she won't try to tech. One occurrence was in one of the West Toast matches, actually.
8. 5c is any cancellable: I think this is good...but if I'm wrong then correct me...
5C range is too long for me to see any use of cancelling the move if it hits an enemy towards the end of the hitbox, but since AA Ciel air combos are a nono, maybe combos will use >5C>214BBB or something.
10. ciel has no more 4 way due to airthrow nerf: well I still don't understand this thing..someone can explain me this plz...tnx.
There are technically two "Ciel 4-way after airthrow" 's.
-If you do the IAD motion after an airthrow out of a corner, you will jump and dash at the same time, putting you at the exact location where your opponent landed right as they get up. Since j.B has a hitbox behind Ciel as well, she has the option to hit overhead, low, or crossup overhead or low.
-If you throw the opponent and j.236A, you can 2CC mix-up, j.B>dash>j.C, j.B>dash>j.A>throw, or j.B>dash>j.B>throw.
11. full moon: she shoots 3 keys at 45 degrees: an anti air technique, sound promising
But no one uses j.214BBB, and personally, 4C is a more viable option for anti-air. However, these upward keys seem better fit for zoning. In addition, with all of the Warakia buffs and his 3-hit j.C and air katto, maybe they'll see some use if someone wants to beat an aerial attack instead of clash with it. What would be really cool is if it were a possible combo finisher with a ground- or un-techable knockdown. :V
EDIT: O_____O It's three simultaneously, and there's both upwards and downwards versions. Downward hits fullscreen.
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Went to Club SEGA today and played MBAA! 2 setups for versu, and 1 setup for playing CPU only
a lot of her old bnbs are gone, or people havent been using them. most here aren't using 2b in their comboes when launching into 5c but seems hard to catch her air combo simply because ciel doesnt float as well as she used to be. 2b is still decent, but not as abuseable as i use it for.
yeah the wait to play was like 20-30 minutes of standing in line, so i only played once and the people in the versus line were fucking cutting, was hardly a line to begin with...
graphically seems the same, a lot of new stages, and and old stages from AC.
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oh yeah damage was very low, comboes average out at 1900-2200
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*pokes head in thread*
Orz............wth did they do to Ciel.
Full on nerfs, although my brain is already working out ways to use cancellable 5c.
Hopefully the other 2 versions are better
*Goes back to playing my mmo*
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUh6UJDXnrA Also cross-posted in the video thread.
This match showcases her Full Moon moveset and it's obvious that both players were just testing things out. A hell of a lot more informative than the few Ciel vids that were released some time ago. As can be seen, she has a lot of new animations, many of which are punch-based.
General Observations:
-A new command dash, this is indicated by the trail of shadows.
-A lot of these new punch moves just look like variations of her shield bunker. I've seen one that hits low and another mid. The super variant is essentially just like Nanaya's 236 moves.
-2A is an elbow attack, similar to Aoko's. Very little range. I wonder if it hits high enough to stuff moves that have lower body invincibility though.
-2B is a crouching horizontal slash that moves her forward and has a little startup but some considerable delay.
-5C(?) is a backfist. Also has a charged version.
-Her j.B is a punch angled downward.
-Her j.C is basically the 2nd part of her old 2BB (ie. the Terry Bogard C+D attack).
-Retains old aerial black keys commands and variants.
-Retains old 4C, not sure about clash frames.
-Retains the 4B->236B axe kick into command throw. Command throw no longer wallslams.
-The upward black keys throw looks like it could be good for covering space. The downward variant shortly after that could be an extension.
-214A (214B?) produces the same effect from the 2nd hit of the old 5CC.
Things I noticed from the video:
0:26 - Command dash has clash frames.
1:53 - the j.C fails to hit Sacchin when she crouches. Though it hits her at 3:08.
1:56 - EX aerial black keys is only one hit? Or do more hits ensue if that one connects?
2:51 - Another look at her backfist attack. She steps forward and attacks. I wonder if it has any evasive properties.
2:59 - A charged version of the backfist? Only she's holding a knife this time.
3:10 - A super throw?
Doesn't look like they changed the artwork for her post-victory screen. :\ No full-length combos/bnbs were performed so I wonder what kind of combos she can do in this mode. Pretty interesting though and I hope there's more footage in the near future.
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Just a bit of theory fighter here~
Looks like with her superthrow (Which just made me love Ciel even more :fap: :fap: :fap:) It looks like she can STILL get some type of four way in unless she can't dash after the throw :'( and her new dash throw makes me wonder if they will make it have a long enough untechable time to make it comboable like Arc's. Even if not it will still make for a good heat setup.
Looks like she can STILL get full screen CH black keys BNBs off which makes tossing out 214s a viable tactic even with this mode. I'm not too sure what to think of her j.214s. I guess the A version still is still has the same effects like Ver.B2 Ciel, her B version is pretty much the same and her C Version...summons a shadow O.o? Maybe for some good obscure oki or even FG setup?
Its still clear that these vids are just to show off new stuff so there's not really much to say about her combo capabilities.
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General Observations:
-Dash now has a trail of shadows.
-A lot of these new punch moves just look like variations of her shield bunker. I've seen one that hits low and another mid. The super variant is essentially just like Nanaya's 236 moves.
-2A is an elbow attack, similar to Aoko's. Very little range. I wonder if it hits high enough to stuff moves that have lower body invincibility though.
-Her j.C (I assume that's what it is based on the sound effect) is basically the 2nd part of her 2BB.
-Retains black keys.
-Retains 4C, not sure about clash frames.
-Retains the 4B->236B command throw. 2nd command no longer wallslams.
-The upward black keys throw looks like it could be good for covering space. The downward variant shortly after that could be an extension.
-214A (214B?) produces the same effect from the 2nd hit of the old 5CC.
Things I noticed from the video:
0:26 - Dash clash is still in.
1:53 - the j.C fails to hit Sacchin when she crouches. Though it hits her at 3:08.
1:56 - EX aerial black keys is only one hit? Or do more hits ensue if that one connects?
2:51 - Another look at her backfist attack. She steps forward and attacks. I wonder if it has any evasive properties.
2:59 - A charged version of the backfist? Only she's holding a knife this time.
3:10 - A super throw?
Doesn't look like they changed the artwork for her post-victory screen. :\ No full-length combos/bnbs were performed so I wonder what kind of combos she can do in this mode. Pretty interesting though and I hope there's more footage in the near future.
the dash is still the same, the shadowy dash is a command move, and needs to be option-select to the grab or a backjump-black-key combo and something else. i think it was a jump-dive. otherwise its invulnerable.
but yeah this is the first i've seen a F-Ciel who knew what the moves were, and did some comboing.
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A command dash that has a preset number of followups? I wonder how that will work out.
Theory fighter~
Since there were no real combos shown, I'm guessing one that might work is 2AB5B2C 4C j.BC dj.BC air throw. This is assuming that 4C and 2C work the same way and it looks like they do.
I also wonder what the command is for her backfist attack. The video shows that it can be comboed into and comboed out of.
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HERE'S TO HOPING CIEL GETS A REAL OVERHEAD :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot:
Actually here's a few things I noticed just recently in that match.
Its not that her normal dash still have clash frames its actually her command dash. Failure-chan 5A'd which clashed causing giving her the option to do her normal throw.
And thanks to HF for pointing this out, but its seems her J.B and J.C has switched "roles" with J.B being more of an angled attack, while J.C is more horizontal.
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Theory Fighter~
Now that 214A causes the same effect as the old 5CC, it might be possible to do a shield-cancel style relaunch if timing is correct and spacing permits. Her 5A animation hits downward so I'm not sure if that would work, but it might considering that the opponent is falling anyway. 2A could possibly work as well since it's now an elbow and it hits higher off the ground than her old 2A did. In the corner, it looks like if you're close enough, you can relaunch with 2C. Though the Ciel player didn't, it looks like he could have. The 214A combos nicely off the backfist (5C?) at least on cornered opponents.
If I had to guess, the backfist is her new 5C which replaces the old sword stab because it's similar in that she moves forward a bit before attacking. It also has a charged version. Overhead? Let's hope so.
The "air throw" from the command dash looks like it induces wallslam. When it was performed, the other player did not tech out, and it looks like he had plenty of time to, but he didn't tech until hitting the ground. If the wallslam is really untechable, it might be possible to relaunch ala Arc. I wonder if this built-in throw from the command dash will catch airborne opponents.
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you know what, i take back what i said before, this F-Ciel is terrible.
the command dash is 214A
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The command dash is 214A? Does this mean that her black key throws are now a 236 motion?
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from my memory, the diagonal throws were 421 but yeah the command dash was 214 and i didnt really follow up on it so i didnt bother. 236A/B is the yamazaki bunker strike, and 236C is the nanaya EX.
btw HF, you wern't at AI last night were you?
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from my memory, the diagonal throws were 421 but yeah the command dash was 214 and i didnt really follow up on it so i didnt bother. 236A/B is the yamazaki bunker strike, and 236C is the nanaya EX.
btw HF, you wern't at AI last night were you?
Then what is her standard knives input then ???
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421A straight. B diagonal1, C diagonal2 i think. i guess we'll find out on the 19th thats when CLUB SEGA arcades gets MBAA official release.
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Yeah, I wasn't at AI last night.
Hrm...kinda weird that a projectile motion would be 421. I can't get over the super throw. She flips even more times before throwing them. lol Thankfully it's untechable.
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I don't know if this was pointed out, sorry if I'm just reiterating old information.
But in the video of Ciel vs. Sacchin, Ciel in Full Moon style; Her Super throw takes meter before the flash. Does that mean she'll lose meter even before it's executed?
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Somewhat detailed writeup.
Finally, some Ciel matches on the geesendou channel, starting at 3633.
Other observations about Crescent Ciel:
3633 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaMSln5Xc-c)
6:41 - 5CC still looks like it's special cancellable.
6:45 - Old 2CC? The second part doesn't look like it goes as high as it used to. Unless the higher one is a new command
7:19 - Air throw. She kinda stays there as she throws them. Opponent didn't tech so it's unclear as to whether they can be tech punished or not.
8:09 - 3B(?) can be chained into.
8:31 - 2C hitting as anti-air?
8:39 - 2B looks like it has roughly half the range it used to.
3634 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6-12Z-gFbI)
10:17 - air movement still allowed after air throw.
3635 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHbacsMsDko)
0:28 - chargeable j.2C
9:49 - Aerial 623 Blade Sinker.
9:56 - 2AA2B4C 2C5C j.BC dj.BC throw. Possibly the bnb of choice for Crescent. Old combo.
10:16 - Movement options allowed after air flash kick.
3636 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-3OgbyiH9Y)
0:41 - 22B has the same properties it seems, whiffs crouchers no matter what.
0:55 - A closer look at the air throw. It seems she falls straight down instead of backwards.
1:01 - You can chain moves from 3B(?).
1:06 - ~4K damage meterless combo from crossup j.B.
2:53 - 623A range decreased. Barely goes anywhere it seems.
9:49 - You can still chain attacks from j.236B.
10:29 - j.236B still looks pretty safe on block, but it looks like the player tried to jump so he got hit by the 2C.
Half Moon Ciel observations
3634 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6-12Z-gFbI)
5:15 - Dash looks as quick and covers as much distance as it did in MBAC.
5:16 - Old 6AA. So 6AAA combo is still in.
5:18 - Backdash looks like it's the same from cm. Half the distance covered.
7:00 - 5A4C 2C5C j.BC dj.BC throw combo. The opponent does not tech the air throw, but the Ciel player does j.C while falling to possibly punish a forward tech.
7:15 - Hi EX Halo. Doesn't launch them as high making it impossible to followup as discussed before.
Edit: j.236A still in, properties are the same.
The match quality obviously isn't very good, but I'll take what I can get as far as new material is concerned. I'm wondering about this chargeable j.2C. It might actually be an overhead. The new 3B looks pretty funky and I wonder what other properties it has. Even if it isn't overhead, I think it might be able to dodge lows judging by the kind of move it is. With the loss of shield cancel, 5CC as combo filler seems best when they're crouching or in the corner so I guess it's gone back to the days of MBAC ver.A in that regard, but it's still special cancellable. 623B-> EX Halo still works so I'm guessing with the proper timing, relaunch is still possible. Better hit confirm skills are probably required now that 2B's range is kinda nerfed, maybe 3B will be a good substitute since it seems to move further than 2B. And since you can chain out of it, 2C might work just fine. Combowise, it seems that she's gone back to MBR style. The 2CC in the first match didn't connect, but if it did then old 2CC mixup might still be possible. Wasn't it 3C that made her go much higher than before? I'm not sure. No one ever teched against the air throw, maybe she falls fast enough to tech punish. I'm guessing if you see that they don't tech, you can still apply the old school high-low air dash mixup from the previous games. Tech window is pretty small so it shouldn't be overly difficult. And since the camera zooms out now, you can see when they land from the air throw.
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ciel's 236C for H and C feels a bit like it has longer recovery time, and the opponents land a bit further away than they used to
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3641 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsX_RFQcHB8)
This is more of an exhibition for HM than anything. Notable changes:
3:35 - 6AAA no longer wallslams.
3:44 - Even without wallslam, it's still possible to combo off the 6AAA in the corner.
4:25 - 236B into a j.2C followup? Is that even 236B? Or is it just a normal jump?
4:34 - New j.A? Hits upward while she's holding a knife.
4:56 - You can chain attacks out of 6AAA. 2C was used in this case, but it whiffed.
5:28 - Judging by this little combo, it might be possible to link or chain into 2C after midscreen 6AAA if the last A has a big cancel window.
5:31 - Maybe a closer look at 236B (if that's what it is because 6AAA wasn't jump cancellable before).
9:24 - Dash still looks pretty fast. In another vid it looked like it had some startup before it actually started moving forward a lot. I think that was the video with the final boss.
9:34 - Seems hm also gets the 3B from cm.
9:40 - 5C can chain into 4C. Maybe other normals too.
3652 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jMG1ED1crU)
Another demo match. Nothing too special aside from trying out combos with the ability to chain out of 5C.
3655 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-9oEYX_No)
3:47 - What exactly is this? New 236A/B? It looks pretty neat, a great way to close the distance and resume pressure. Reminds me of Guy's Bushin Leap from the SFA games.
5:41 - 4C into 2C is now considered reverse beat? wtf?
3655 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGDYDPlIZpw)
0:50 - Looks like her air back dash goes farther now.
1:25 - New corner combo: 2AA3B5C4C j.BC dj.BC throw
1:59 - A meterless ~4K bnb off a j.B.
This match blows. The Ciel player was winning big only to lose it. 2A spam ftl.
3657 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Inh0snsCV0)
10:35 - Notice how the auto circuit spark from the opponent's HM usage was not triggered by the EX Halo.
DOUBLE EDIT:
3659 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfGi158TiLI)
6:22 - 3B chained into 2B is counted as reverse beat. Ok, WHY THE FUCK did chaining into another move of the same button strength qualify as reverse beat? Seriously. The new rule might be chaining a command normal into a regular normal now.
7:52 - A super double jump?
TIPLE EDIT:
3660 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yDX5selCKM)
3:52 - New j.B can crossup?
4:32 - 5A can now hit Wara when he's crouch blocking. It wasn't possible before.
5:30 - Both hits of 2CC hit the blocking opponent. Notice how she doesn't go as high on the second hit. This means that 2CC mixup is might still be possible against cornered opponents.
6:54 - Old full screen black keys into 236C combo still works.
8:00 - 214B->4A->4B combos at closer distances at midscreen.
9:03 - j.2C somehow manages to crossup.
3661 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18vIDpyFf_Q)
0:11 - Air movement after air flash kicks allowed in HM.
1:04 - Why are there 3 RBs in this combo? It started with j.B and then went to 2A and the first RB display appeared witht he 2A. ???
4:32 - A really weird otg combo.
7:30 - The air throw is teched for the FIRST time.
7:39 - The air throw is teched AGAIN, this time forward. Though she wasn't punished after it, it looked VERY probable.
QUADRUPLE EDIT:
3662 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7NOx73c224)
1:20 - ABSOLUTELY GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! 623B connects and the Ciel player cancels into 236C to punish. It doesn't work, and DIES because of it. This is proof that auto spark is NOT punishable, by ANY stretch of the imagination. FORGET about baiting circuit sparks, it doesn't matter. YOU WILL GET PUNISHED BECAUSE YOU BAITED AND TRIED TO PUNISH THEM. WHAT.....THE......FUCK!!!!
3653 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLMgGnJNEdA)
Finally, a FM match.
9:42 - New 3B also available in FM.
9:41 - The blockstring here does a noticeable amount of damage to the guard gauge.
That's about all I got out of this match. It was pretty terrible. And once again, no real combos were shown. 5C into snake arm does a respectable amount of guard meter damage by the looks of it.
EDIT:
3657 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Inh0snsCV0)
The second round of this match seems like it was an opportunity for the FM player to test things out.
4:48 - Has the ability to throw 3 knives at a downward angle. Not part of a series.
5:44 - 2AB5C 214A combos.
5:55 - Same combo used as above but allows for 2C relaunch against cornered opponent.
Apparently you can chain 2B into 2C like normal, but this player never used it to start a combo. wtf But for christ's sake, the other guy let him test stuff out in round 2 and he couldn't do a proper bnb! WHAT THE HELL!!!!
I hope sometime in the near future, there's a demo match of her FM. I really want to see what that mode is capable of.
Shield bunker looks like it costs 100% meter.
Another change I noticed but forgot to add, is that all her j.236 attacks seem to go at a steeper angle instead of 45 degrees.
So far, I still don't see anyone teching out of the air throw. Not even midscreen where it's 100% risk-free. I wonder why that is. All reports up until now have stated that her air throw is techable but there have been a bazillion air throws and not a single opponent has teched it. That one video where it looked like the player did a falling j.C to attempt a tech punish, now it seems possible he might have missed his air dash input and wasn't trying to tech punish at all. Something has to give.
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Ok after watching 3664 with hCiel vs. fNanaya and cNanaya I really don't know what to say. I mean, the Ciel player was actually doing pretty decent and WON A GAME :o but all and all I just can't help, but to see her as gimped in every way except having more tricks. It seems to me they just decide to make cCiel a shittier MBAC incarnation, hCiel a shittier MB:R incarnation (with more tricks), and I really can't say much about fCiel with no good quality match vids of her and the surface of Full Moon hasn't even been touched yet. People say that Ciel is already ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ in MBAC now and I really disagree. Now if people want to say cCiel and hCiel look pretty boring I really can't help but agree because she does look rather boring. Now fCiel I can honestly say from seeing the first fCiel match I feel as though she's OOOZING with potential with all the new shit she's gotten...too bad no one is willing to stick with the style or character so much <_<.
I guess I'll a full report whenever I see a good fCiel in these matches. Until then, HF Blade is doing a REALLY good job with all the detailed info on cCiel and hCiel.
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The falling j.c after the airthrow could have been to cut recovery.
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A short update.
hCiel:
3663 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyXMHMyDyjQ)
3:40 - 6AA can be used to relaunch after a 6AAA connects in the corner.
5:55 - 4C doesn't relaunch after a corner 6AAA, or the timing is more strict.
6:24 - Super double jump. This caused the combo to fail though.
Surprisingly enough she won this match.
3664 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDK5fJX4Mdo)
2:15 - Another look at the "Bushin Leap." I suppose this is the closest Ciel will get to having a real overhead since she still has not command overhead or instant air dash.
3:38 - 6AAA late cancelled into 236B->236C combo.
6:20 - The new j.A looks like it has more reach than the old one.
EDIT:
3673 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZGDBB9shsA)
8:38 - 5A now hits crouch guarding V.Akiha. This leads me to believe that the 5A hitbox has been increased.
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Small update:
hCiel:
3691 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxPcafckm7g)
9:42 - For the first time we see Ciel retain her momentum after throwing an aerial black key.
10:41 - 2CC on hit doesn't launch really high anymore. Acts more like a regular hit.
3692 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI4n9ZMyLOs)
0:51 - 2C3C? launches higher than 2CC but not as high as old 2CC. Air combo is possible since she goes higher.
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QUADRUPLE EDIT:
3662 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7NOx73c224)
1:20 - ABSOLUTELY GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! 623B connects and the Ciel player cancels into 236C to punish. It doesn't work, and DIES because of it. This is proof that auto spark is NOT punishable, by ANY stretch of the imagination. FORGET about baiting circuit sparks, it doesn't matter. YOU WILL GET PUNISHED BECAUSE YOU BAITED AND TRIED TO PUNISH THEM. WHAT.....THE......FUCK!!!!
Veteru says that his japanese friend says that you can throw circuit sparks during their recovery.
Anyway you are overreacting, baiting a circuit spark (by whiff canceling or something) will still set the momentum back to neutral and it is preferable to getting hit by the spark.
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So far I haven't seen anyone punish circuit spark recovery with a throw, because everyone's too busy getting hit by them trying to punish with a 2A that triggers the auto spark. So auto sparks are punishable by throw and not strikes? Also whiff cancelling isn't fool proof because if you are whiff cancelling, chances are that you are in range to get hit by the spark more often than not. As far as I can tell, moves in MB don't have any weird kinds of invincibility outside of lower/upper/complete body invincibility (ie. strike invincibility but vulnerable to throws). If you can find a specific time index in a match then I'll believe it. So far there are 2 examples of sparks being completely strike invincible but not necessarily vulnerable to throws.
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Throw the bitches >:(
Seriously, I'm not seeing anyone baiting circuit sparks in order to punish them often enough and seeing that Veteru's friend said you can punish circuit sparks with throws which would require you to bait the circuit spark...which again doesn't happen very often. So instead of aiming to bait a circuit spark just punish the bitches with throws. Lets look at the advantages here: I've personally saw A LOT of situations where they punished a move with a simple 2A and BLAM! circuit spark....Soooooo, instead of just going for that 2A go for the throw. It swings momentum in YOUR favor instead of having it neutral. Also you're doing a lot more damage they can't recover while in heat. On top of swinging momentum your way they're not gonna purposely get hit by a meaty (But I've seen matches where people would purposely do a punishable move and circuit spark so dunno) so instead they're gonna block (you want them to do this) so you can...TICK THROW and still keeping them in heat, doing damage they can't recover, AND keeping momentum in your favor. I'm hoping I'm not the only one thinking like this.
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I haven't seen anybody bait a circuit spark and throw either, I'm just going by Veteru's word there.
Also of note:
Some info Tropsy found on a jp message board:
(12:22:20 AM) Tropsy: new top tier info from the mbaa thread
(12:22:24 AM) Tropsy: again don't blame me if it's wrong
(12:22:29 AM) Tropsy: but apparently half moon CS is SHIELDABLE
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No.
Why wouldn't someone with an auto-spark wakeup dp? Then wakeup throw when that starts getting baited. This is assuming your opponent's punishing options consist of 1 hit to force the auto-spark or throw and is void if they can punish the spark's recovery.
And if spark is shieldable...activate blood heat, 2a them, jump, ex shield xx auto pain. If it's the same as in mbac it does a lot of chip damage even if they can block it. Not something you can rely on to be available all the time but something to put in a day 1 "combo" video.
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No.
Why wouldn't someone with an auto-spark wakeup dp? Then wakeup throw when that starts getting baited. This is assuming your opponent's punishing options consist of 1 hit to force the auto-spark or throw and is void if they can punish the spark's recovery.
You're right. Why wouldn't someone with an auto-spark wakeup DP? It sounds REALLY safe on paper, wakeup DP KNOWING the other person is gonna get 2A. Well I see problems with this on BOTH sides. (Assuming the "DPer" is playing HM)
The DPer: Just because they have the ability to auto-spark really doesn't mean much here. He's STILL taking a risk of the DP getting blocked in the first place. So purposely doing a DP in this case really isn't the best thing (Like I've seen a Nanaya do) since you're still taking a risk not of it being blocked, but also how is he gonna punish. "Is he gonna punish with a 2A or throw" I'd think that would go through peoples head...Anyways, lets say the DP gets blocked the "punisher" have two options.
He can 2A and attempt to bait the circuit spark (which again based on the vids we've seen this doesn't happen too often and if it does its neutral) or the punisher can just throw, simply keeping momentum in his favor, and don't have to worry about him gaining health, AND have the opportunity to do damage they can't recover with more throws of course because attacks trigger circuit sparks. Now if it does get to the point where they wakeup throw like you suggested they would...something would be wrong the "punisher's" part now would it?
Now look at the "punisher": Just because this is in a Ciel sub-forum we'll say the punisher is Ciel. Ok now Ciel just blocked a DP, lets see how she can punish this. Since I already went over the scenario with her throwing, lets do this with a 2A or even better. 236C. First lets do 236C, Like HF stated in his post...Ciel tries to bait it with TWO-THREE-SIX SEE!!! and what happens....Every hit whiffed and she died because of it. So we're gonna scratch that. Now you stated if it's shieldable to activate blood heat, 2A them, jump, ex shield and auto pain. Let me ask you a question....Even in MBAC how often do you see anyone do A SINGLE 2A (Because thats all you get in MBAA) and jump out in time to avoid the circuit spark altogether...not that often. Hell baiting CS's in MBAC doesn't happen THAT often enough to even make that a practical tool in MBAA. Maybe I'll think otherwise when I see people bait the CS and ACTUALLY PUNISH THAT rather than just bait the CS and can't punish because of the invincibility
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More hCiel observations:
3736 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuDBVc_1Q3s)
4:17 - 3B>5B is a RB but 3B into any C strength attack is not.
5:28 - Just ANOTHER example of when the opponent should have punished with a throw instead of an attack.
5:51 - Yet again, j.B into landing 2A shows a RB. Is linking a ground attack after a jump-in a RB or was the player just pressing the A button too fast? I remember in MBAC if you press a button of weaker strength in the air too soon after a blocked air attack, the attack won't come out but it will have read the input thus considering it a RB.
6:10 - j.C after the "bushin leap." This makes me wonder if this j.C is really punishable. It doesn't look like it should be if the j.C is considered the same as a normal air attack, which means all landing recovery should be negated.
6:28 - "bushin leap" j.2C into pressure.
6:34 - 5B, still the ever so reliable normal for tech punishing.
6:49 - 2AAB6AA3B5C2C.... A dropped combo but showcases that 3B can be neatly inserted into combos.
7:26 - "bushin leap" j.C into 2AB.... Another dropped combo. I've seen this happen on several occasions and it seems that 2B will 1-hit the opponent in this situation usually. My guess is in order to get a full combo out of this situation is simply to cancel 2B immediately after the first hit.
3739 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8pw4l8jPE)
10:16 - 2AB6AA3B5C2C4B. Another dropped combo. But it shows that 2C will combo off a 5C even after all the hits that preceded it. I have no clue why they keep doing 4B to set up the air combo part though, I'm pretty sure they're trying to do 4C but it might be a slight error on their part.
3749 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3d8uqfY16M)
1:59 - Finally, a complete bnb, I knew all along that this would work out. This will probably be the bnb of choice for hCiel: 2AAB6AA3B 5C2C4C j.BC dj.BC throw. It only uses 1 RB and does roughly 3600 damage.
2:11 - The same combo as above except it starts with a j.C and uses one less 2A. Seems to work against standing opponents as well but this one was done in the corner.
3:24 - The bnb works perfectly fine midscreen as well.
Ciel finally wins some matches. It's been forever since she has and thank god it was against that damned Akiha. Like 85% of all match vids as of late have been Akiha and lately there have been a lot of Akiha mirrors as of late too. Ugh. Well enough of that. The quality of play is better than most Ciel matches up until now.
I have yet to see anyone tech against the 236C, but I don't see why it wouldn't be techable. Even if they tech away from her I don't think she can punish them unless she has enough meter for another 236C. But if it is untechable, I guess that's to compensate for the inability to follow it up. The new bushin leap, err....Hiero moveset looks pretty interesting. With the ability to j.C and j.2C out of it, it's a nice way to keep cornered opponent's from getting too hasty to find a way out. The j.C from the leap most likely hits overhead and it looks like this is the closest we'll get to a true overhead for Ciel. The cool thing is it covers a lot of distance and will most likely avoid many low pokes. I'm also glad to know the bnb I've had in mind for a while actually works based on these matches. :)
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http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8pw4l8jPE
At around 9:50, you see Ciel do a valid otg after ex hiero. So that would mean it is untechable in the air and ground and could possibly be an alternative to airthrow which doesn't seem to give her much setup at all. Although I have yet to see her do a j.236b after a airthrow to punish but it might work.
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At around 9:50, you see Ciel do a valid otg after ex hiero.
at least its way toned down compared to MBAC. for that, i'm glad.
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3749 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNrkc1U2s9o)
Brandino pointed this out earlier, but take a look at what happens at 9:11. Anyone have any idea what it is?
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It looks like the last hit (the one that is the untechable knockdown) of ex hiero happens when ciel is on screen. Since that hiero was a tech punish, and it locked onto the position nero was before he teched, the last hit whiffed at first but when nero tried to attack ciel it counterhit him.
That's my best guess, it could be like the last hit of wara's AD in MBAC, an unblockable fullscreen hit or something.
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A Ciel infinite: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4800818
Thanks to Psylocke for the link.
It basically goes like this in the corner: string->5CC-> 214[A]xn. The style shown is CM. It looks pretty dumb I'm going to have to say. The 214[A] looks like it freezes them long enough so that you can throw out another one. I didn't even know that 214A was chargeable because almost all the Ciel matches so far have been HM.
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Am I the only one not liking the idea of her having a brain dead infinite? I mean giving her a brain dead infinite just to compensate for having practically every useful tool she has nerfed doesn't really sit well with me. Her OTG loop was fine I guess because it wasn't really an infinite, its character specific, and it took SKILL (I know Ciel and Skill shouldn't go in the same sentence hur hur) but this is....
W/E I don't even know why I'm rambling on about this.
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This might just be Warakia specific.
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This might just be Warakia specific.
I hope so
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Am I the only one not liking the idea of her having a brain dead infinite? I mean giving her a brain dead infinite just to compensate for having practically every useful tool she has nerfed doesn't really sit well with me.
You are talking like this is intentional, it obviously is not, because it BREAKS the game.
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Am I the only one not liking the idea of her having a brain dead infinite? I mean giving her a brain dead infinite just to compensate for having practically every useful tool she has nerfed doesn't really sit well with me.
You are talking like this is intentional, it obviously is not, because it BREAKS the game.
Not that I was making that intentional in the first place, but.............. :-\
Hey, as far as I'm concerned if it IS intentional, not only work on Warakia, but the entire cast, AND that brain dead easy...they just tossed us a fucking bone. THANKS A LOT TYPE MOON FOR NERFING EVERY PRACTICAL THING SHE HAS WHILE GIVING US THAT SOMETHING RETARDED EXCUSE OF AN INFINITE!!!!!!!1111ONEONEOENOENOENOENOENOE :V
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i'm gonna do this on all you motherfuckers lololololol
Ciel for lyfe!!!!!!!!!
now maybe i can actually buy the MBAA cuz thisll drive the price straight down.
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Tried F Ciel today...
214A is a regular black key throw, tried charging it but nothing happened.
214B is three black keys thrown into the air. (Hi Sakuya)
214C is three black keys thrown downward. Meaning no EX for her 214.
236A is a quick fist jab at the opponents legs. (Hi Yamazaki)
236B is a quick fist jab at the opponnts head.
236C will do a fist jab horizontally, I didn't get a chance to actually try this on someone though.
623 is still blade sinker, and 22 is still ciel somersault, j.214 key throws still here, her j.236 is still there as well.
I didn't get a chance to try out her dash junks though.
She has 3B in this form. That...kick thing...
F Ciel can just do like 2ABC 4C -> aerial blah blah as a bnb
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This is the most I can do for F Ciel right now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKsE2Fvg04
Hope you guys enjoy it?
I still wub ciel :slowpoke:
Forgot to do dash junks again :emo:
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. . .
GGGRRRRrrrraaaaAAAKIRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! >:(
Also i hope brandio is being /sarcastic about 'giving' CL and inf (hard to tell sometimes on the internets). I would hope that a game designer wouldnt intentionally give or make an infinite available to a character. This is obviously a design flaw which was overlooked and is usually taken care of with a good ol' patch up.
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He was being sarcastic Zar.
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I was *partly* being sarcastic.
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Back to new Ciel shit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qb3RVgLJ_g
Watch the last match in this vid between hnanaya and cciel, notice ciel trying to do a loop involving 5cc 214[a] with a charge 4b followup. She never gets the whole thing off, but it looks like it would be a suitable high damage replacement for her shield cancel combo.
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watch this Black Key...no, we should call it BUG Key now :slowpoke:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=DehnEJuC-rw
1:15
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watch this Black Key...no, we should call it BUG Key now :slowpoke:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=DehnEJuC-rw
1:15
Now where have we seen that before....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkI2sdnR6kM :slowpoke:
Sad thing is this is probably the best thing I've seen CielC do and I don't even give a damn for it... :emo: I see more interesting shit in characters I don't even play. Although 22B>airthrow was pretty funny to see.
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I suppose this new black key loop is a good replacement for her old shield cancel. There's probably some other cool stuff you can do with it other than just the loop itself. The boards have been down for a while so I dunno if there's any other stuff worth mentioning in the recent vids. If I have time I'll do another writeup. Still waiting for good fCiel matchplay.
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I suppose this new black key loop is a good replacement for her old shield cancel. There's probably some other cool stuff you can do with it other than just the loop itself. The boards have been down for a while so I dunno if there's any other stuff worth mentioning in the recent vids. If I have time I'll do another writeup. Still waiting for good fCiel matchplay.
I see a possible bootleg reset involving 2C instead of 4and her damage surpasses the shield cancel BNB by far (One video showing 5.5K) and far as waiting for a good fCiel....maybe one day.
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Just some other things that I felt needed to be documented.
cCiel
3848 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DehnEJuC-rw)
3:08 - The 214[A] loop. Also uses [4B].
3:37 - With the ability to move after j.22B, air throwing is possible if used in combos.
5:08 - Another look at the 214[A] loop. It looks like it's possible to combo 2 214[A]s from midscreen but more of them is impossible unless you dash in with [4B]. I've also noticed that when the 214[A] freezes them temporarily, the opponent returns to ground level before the explosion launches them up.
9:28 - Invalid hit?
3849 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtS3gfGY3N4)
0:48 - The old j.C fuzzy guard still works.
3:55 - The 214[A] loop appears to work on Nero as well.
3851 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWNUhWdhW9A)
2:18 - Did 2C hit the opponent immediately after the explosion occured?
3:07 - A somewhat long pressure string.
4:28 - The [4B] relaunch after 214[A] doesn't quite work well against smaller opponents it seems.
4:43 - I guess [4B] relaunch works after all.
5:29 - LOL!!!!! Yomi layer too high.
5:46 - Punishing a forward tech from the air throw with a falling j.B.
8:12 - 4 reps of the 214[A] loop starting from one of the corners. Dunno why the 5th rep didn't hit. It looks like the [4B] was canceled at just the right time.
3852 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NI8n1iGU30)
1:11 - 2 reps of 214[A] loop against Akiha. So it looks like it can work against smaller characters, at least in the corner.
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OK screw the bootleg 2C reset option. She has so much more from this loop. This is probably one of the very few times I'll talk positive about cCiel so..... :V
Not only does she have a 2C reset option, she can either try and keep the loop going long enough to put them on the other side of the level, go on to do a airstring, even super duper ambiguous dash mixup if they decide to air tech...Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a boxer type corner throw mixup with this...Almost makes me want to touch cCiel...almost.
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cCiel
NO16 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m48fAMB6tpk)
6:56 - A whopping 5 reps of the 214[A] loop against Nero.
7:45 - Air throw tech punish into bnb.
Crossposted in the video room by Psylocke: NO24 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFfhAX4SoOA)
2:12 - Ciel infinite + freezing bug works on Aoko midscreen.
5:22 - It looks like the j.2[C] hit overhead. Aoko was dashing, and she wasn't attacking either because there was no counter hit message.
6:44 - 5 reps of the 214[A] loop against Kohaku.
8:15 - 6 reps of 214[A] loop into 2C reset.
There's an fCiel match after this one but as expected the player gets steamrolled and was very unproductive.
26 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ataaC4I_GY)
Near the end.
NO27 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXd3DwAjMnQ)
All Ciel matches. Will comment later.
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cCiel
NO16 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m48fAMB6tpk)
6:56 - A whopping 5 reps of the 214[A] loop against Nero.
7:45 - Air throw tech punish into bnb.
Crossposted in the video room by Psylocke: NO24 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFfhAX4SoOA)
2:12 - Ciel infinite + freezing bug works on Aoko midscreen.
5:22 - It looks like the j.2[C] hit overhead. Aoko was dashing, and she wasn't attacking either because there was no counter hit message.
6:44 - 5 reps of the 214[A] loop against Kohaku.
8:15 - 6 reps of 214[A] loop into 2C reset.
There's an fCiel match after this one but as expected he gets steamrolled and was very unproductive.
Sounds like as many reps as her OTG loop. Seems like her OTG loop except it does damage AND builds meter...LOL too good.
And about the fCiel match..... :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo: :emo:
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6RDLaBm__I 0:18-0:33 9 Fucking reps of this loop.
My personal take on this loop. Will this loop make her top tier again? No way. While her damage output has increased tremendously, along with her meter building, carries them to the other corner, AND gives her plenty of options mid-screen or corner she has lost almost every other tool that has made her top in Ver.B2. Her mixups I have to say are abysmal at best compared to what she was used to be able to do, her air movement for the most part isn't as good as it was (w/o meter) although the ability to get movement after 22B is somewhat good, I guess you can still have the same air movement like she did back in Ver.B2 but now you don't have the option of not using meter (thanks to her 214A), and 236C.....never really made her top in the first place so I won't even go there. While I will say that this does change my personal opinion about cCiel, not much but I don't see her as COMPLETELY useless. I will say that she will never be as good as she was in Ver.B2. cCiel or hCiel that is, I still say FM can and probably will be the best of the three.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH5TUw9l6TM
6:27-8:29
This game needs a fix... Ciel needs to be effin fixed... Her infinite goes into a freeze glitch. How gay.
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It's like you haven't read this thread at all and interjected with "omg Ciel is broken" even though the handcuff glitch has been known for like 3 weeks and everyone WANTS it fixed.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH5TUw9l6TM
6:27-8:29
This game needs a fix... Ciel needs to be effin fixed... Her infinite goes into a freeze glitch. How gay.
Have you been living under a rock for the past month? Shits mad old and while I do agree that this game needs a fix Ciel really don't one. This loop is her only redeeming factor as far as keeping up with everyone else now....they just need to make the loop either groundslam or wall slam it should be good.
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I posted a bunch of links to Ciel matches in the video thread. I haven't watched all of them because I've been very busy lately, so there are no time indexes. I may have missed a few but I listed them to the best of my ability. Use this thread to discuss any of those.
From what little I've seen though, in NO128 @ 6:31, j.214A can be used as a possible tech punish when you throw them into the corner but aren't close enough.
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Check out either #111 or #112 in the Ciel thread (forgets time index ) for another lame fact about 214[A].
If you ever land a 214[A] OTG hit the explosion will actually lift them off the ground MB:R style enabling you to either CONTINUE THE LOOP OR BNB. Although she doesn't do either of the two it looks very possible
Why.......... :emo:
Edit: #114 @ 3:38
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH5TUw9l6TM
6:27-8:29
This game needs a fix... Ciel needs to be effin fixed... Her infinite goes into a freeze glitch. How gay.
Have you been living under a rock for the past month? Shits mad old and while I do agree that this game needs a fix Ciel really don't one. This loop is her only redeeming factor as far as keeping up with everyone else now....they just need to make the loop either groundslam or wall slam it should be good.
ya I've been under a rock :emo:
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Random notes on c-ciel:
- 22b > grab during an air combo only works if your opponent is high enough. Throwing in a j.a reverse beat before the 22b makes it work reliably.
- Loop seems about as hard as shield dash combos, that is doable with some practice.
- j.b and j.c get anti-aired by random stupid shit like nanaya 2a/2b.
- 4c feels hella nerfed.
- 2aab3b5cc xx 214[a], dash, j.cb j.bc xx grab does 4k and is really easy.
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4C is nerfed? I can't tell from the videos but it still looks good for scoring random air CHs and it still has its clash frames.
Just some random notes about the latest vids:
NO176 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGKdeLpxm7w): cCiel
0:56 - Upward knives followed by downward knives.
3:14 - A 1P corner crossup. The 214B,236B already puts him in the corner but air dash j.B somehow crosses up and she lands on the other side.
7:38 - Tech punish with j.214A after air throw.
7:43 - Throws 2 waves of 3 knives horizontally.
8:08 - Punishing the dumb Geass Ring with 236C.
8:36 - Throwing 8 knives in one motion.
NO178 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDHLVNX_9O4): hCiel
3:44 - You can do 6AAA, 5C->.... midscreen. You can even chain into 5[C].
4:52 - The crossup hitbox on j.B is pretty far back.
NO180 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW8aNKF7BaA): cCiel
1:15 - Victory in two combos. :-\ If 4-way is really possible in the corner off this loop, then it just got THAT much more retarded.
1:47 - Check out the MASSIVE counter hit stun and damage on the 8-knife throw after a trade.
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4c feels slower, but I'm not sure if it actually is. I'm probably mistiming it due to the new falling speed.
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4C is nerfed? I can't tell from the videos but it still looks good for scoring random air CHs and it still has its clash frames.
Just some random notes about the latest vids:
NO176 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGKdeLpxm7w): cCiel
0:56 - Upward knives followed by downward knives.
3:14 - A 1P corner crossup. The 214B,236B already puts him in the corner but air dash j.B somehow crosses up and she lands on the other side.
7:38 - Tech punish with j.214A after air throw.
7:43 - Throws 2 waves of 3 knives horizontally.
8:08 - Punishing the dumb Geass Ring with 236C.
8:36 - Throwing 8 knives in one motion.
NO178 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDHLVNX_9O4): hCiel
3:44 - You can do 6AAA, 5C->.... midscreen. You can even chain into 5[C].
4:52 - The crossup hitbox on j.B is pretty far back.
NO180 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW8aNKF7BaA): cCiel
1:15 - Victory in two combos. :-\ If 4-way is really possible in the corner off this loop, then it just got THAT much more retarded.
1:47 - Check out the MASSIVE counter hit stun and damage on the 8-knife throw after a trade.
cCiel is now MBAC Fatsuki with better zoning
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4C is nerfed? I can't tell from the videos but it still looks good for scoring random air CHs and it still has its clash frames.
Just some random notes about the latest vids:
NO176 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGKdeLpxm7w): cCiel
0:56 - Upward knives followed by downward knives.
3:14 - A 1P corner crossup. The 214B,236B already puts him in the corner but air dash j.B somehow crosses up and she lands on the other side.
7:38 - Tech punish with j.214A after air throw.
7:43 - Throws 2 waves of 3 knives horizontally.
8:08 - Punishing the dumb Geass Ring with 236C.
8:36 - Throwing 8 knives in one motion.
NO178 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDHLVNX_9O4): hCiel
3:44 - You can do 6AAA, 5C->.... midscreen. You can even chain into 5[C].
4:52 - The crossup hitbox on j.B is pretty far back.
NO180 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW8aNKF7BaA): cCiel
1:15 - Victory in two combos. :-\ If 4-way is really possible in the corner off this loop, then it just got THAT much more retarded.
1:47 - Check out the MASSIVE counter hit stun and damage on the 8-knife throw after a trade.
cCiel is now MBAC Fatsuki with better zoning
Hmm...the counter hit stun works the same way if you land the 3rd wave of her 214B or 236B~j.214A you get a CH2. Of course its only possible if all knives connect, but the damage is new to me.
Ciel =/= Failure. One thing that set either of these two characters apart is the meter. Failure needs 200% to score that much...what does Ciel need? Random 2A or jumpin AND she gets better options off of it. Failure wishes she was as retarded as Ciel.
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yeah so, H-CL has infinite variation wheeeee
5a>6a>6a>BE4B [repeat]
dear ecole/typemoon/frenchbread/WHOEVER,
someone fix BE4B
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yeah so, H-CL has infinite variation wheeeee
5a>6a>6a>BE4B [repeat]
dear ecole/typemoon/frenchbread/WHOEVER,
someone fix BE4B
No fucking way. No FUCKING WAY.
SHITS MAD AWESUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As awesome as having AIDS.
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Oh man, he's right about this being an infinite.
NO196 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6QlCO79-D8)
The 6AAA>[4B] looping starts at 7:24. The player didn't use the infinite but he did a number of reps and it's clear that it's an infinite due to the launch properties.
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F Ciel is uh...yeah.
63214 is the dashing grab
63214A will have her dash up, then do a normal throw
63214B is a slower startup, but she will grab them, then fling them into the wall. (Looks like it can be followed up)
63214C is a EX, looks to be same speed as her 63214A, but when she grabs them she will go high in the air and spin several times before throwing them. (Height is about the same as you would be from a BnB leading to an Aerial.) Damage ranges from about 2.5k-3k, at the end you can do whatever you normally can off a normal bnb into aerial -> airthrow.
You can use 63214A and C as bnb enders if you choose to trip them with 2C.
j.214C is WAY WAY different
Ciel will throw out a black key, when it touches the ground large black waves will spread outward in one direction
If your opponent is on the ground and is hit by the key, or the waves it'll stun them momentarily and you can dash up and go fuck with them
However, if you do it in the air the effect is the same as a Vakiha j.C, it'll slam them to the ground and you can otg them if you want.
22B j.214C will work
If you whiff a j.214C, it looks like it's the same as the way her new j.214A works
236A can be cancelled to an EX
623C will have her go through the enemy at a fast speed, on hit or block.
If you do a BnB, you can end it in different ways, so far I've tried
236A to trip them and have them in front of me
63214A to end it with a ground throw
or for aerials, end with an airthrow, or j.22B j.214C
If you aren't close enough to use 4C to get them in the air after a 2C, you can do 3C instead
didn't try much else today
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Her charge 4b should be a techable groundslam or at the very least an untechable groundbounce so at least it isn't isn't an infinite.
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Updated my last post in the video thread.
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On crouchers 5cc, 2c5c air works easily on everyone now.
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k so after I fought an F Ciel on patched MBAA...
what the F Ciel would do for bnbs was like, he'd do 236A mid-bnb that would trip them after a series of normals, but then he would catch them again and go into an aerial. I ate like 4.4k once
he'd pretty much do BE4B or BE3C and then if you were blocking standing up too long, he'd 236A trip you and go into a OTG.
It looks like 236C can "pick up" the opponent from an OTG? I'm unsure about this one, but if it can...OTG string then 236C for a wallslam and slight extra damage
it looks like angled black keys have less recovery time, or you can follow it up or something
soon as he did a 214B, he'd be able to do 214C almost immediately after
i think maybe F Ciel's 63214 might have been sped up a little, not really sure on that either
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Sorry guys I can't infinite consistently :emo:
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Not sure if this has been posted, but...
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/video/niconico/sm5336009
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what the FUCK?
shit i want that kind of meter
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any FM vids lately ?:slowpoke:
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any FM vids lately ?:slowpoke:
fCiel exist?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwyE6mCS9B0&feature=related (2nd match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMD7ikowgz8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2w2rBQD1VQ&feature=related (2nd match I believe)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYcTWRPCV60&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmvHN6dVY3c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G28U4w7xzJE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RscEwxlLwI&feature=related
Possibly the best display of Ciel I've seen since this game has been out. Outside of her damage being low she looks pretty decent. Old vids are old but w/e.
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http://blog-imgs-27.fc2.com/t/o/k/tokkablog/play.html?id=sm5634121
214B>4A>4A xx 623C for 6.1K
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So I've finally gotten the chance to play MBAA ver.A. My detailed writeup is in the new thread, which might get merged with this one. We'll see.
For all those moves that are listed as "same as MBAC" I might just copy the descriptions out of my incomplete faq (which I will delete very soon) just so it doesn't look so redundant.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEKv2LfeCw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEKv2LfeCw)
i was practicing like usual, until this happens
how the fuck does she pull out almost 9k damage? it's corner only in the end, good luck doing that in a serious match :slowpoke:
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So, MBAA has been out for almost 2 weeks. Let's get some discussion rolling for Ciel. If you have style specific questions ask them in here or their respective threads. Strategies pertaining to a particular style can be posted here but they should be referenced in their respective guide threads. I know there's no guide for Half Moon yet but I intend to write one and it shouldn't take me too long since I can copy over whatever information in the Crescent guide that also applies to Half.
So far, it seems that Ciel's only change in the PS2 port is that her air throw in all styles is untechable. While this may seem like a very good change, it really isn't as good as some make it out to be. Like most untechable air throws, she ends up pretty far from the opponent. You can still perform an air special while falling but it occurs REALLY late and by the time you reach the ground, the opponent has already recovered from the air throw. It seems that the best way to get oki now is to use 4B>236B or 2C>2A (Crescent and Half only). While these enders do significantly less damage than going into an air string, you are in a much better position to apply oki. The general tradeoff in MBAA seems to be more damage for less oki vs less damage for better oki. Unlike in MBAC where most characters could do big damage and get really good oki.
So for styles, what are your thoughts? imo C is quite possibly her most versatile (not saying it's the best) style since she still has her long range game and her 236C for punishing. C can also do quite a bit of damage. I'd say the only downside to C is that since it's most like her MBAC incarnation, it's quite possibly the style that most people would be accustomed to fighting. It'll be a style where you really need to pull some "outside the box" stunts for great success. F is better than H imo. F does WAY more damage for less effort and a much safer and more reliable way to combo off her [4B] overhead. F also has some really mean frame traps and staggers and it's the only style of the 3 where you can score a knockdown (using j.214C) without having to sacrifice damage. The biggest obstacle is probably understanding the mechanics behind F since it has a lot of different rules and restrictions than the other 2. F's long range game isn't as strong as C's, but its mid-range game is probably better. H has some interesting moves to re-apply pressure, but her damage output is embarrassingly low for her better combos given the amount of effort you have to put into them. imo H doesn't seem to benefit Ciel because of its meter management. There just never feels like there's enough meter to go around. H's meter maxes out at 200 and once you reach Max mode, your meter continuously drains until it reaches 0% again. If you get hit, you auto spark and lose ALL your meter. This can become a real problem since you will have less opportunities to pull a clutch 236C for punishing. On top of that, her 623C is the version from MBAC (ie. it's not very useful). I really want to know why the Japanese consider F to be a weaker style for her than H.
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I mained Ciel back in MBAC and all three Ciels in here feel like they've been adjusted an incredible amount. Yet that hasn't proved to be a problem as I've been able to adjust as well, making F-Ciel my initial main. Ciel's one of the few who I enjoy using with in all three styles. Here's my thoughts on them.
Crescent
While this is generally the "MBAC" style, her combos differ quite a bit from MBAC's. Can't shield cancel 5CC anymore, 236C no longer launches, no more 6AAA, etc. Probably the style I use the least as I can't use her like I did in MBAC, but she has a few new toys to make her fun using like the hidden keys and aerial sinkers.
Half
For a while I was only playing H-Ciel for some reason. Since she's limited with meter I don't even bother with 236C for her. The only really good thing about H-Ciel that I like is her whatever>5A>6AA>BE4B>2C>tk2369B>4B>236B combo doing decent damage with oki. Her 63214x and 236x series all seem decent for pressure but I can't help but feel they're shield bait.
Full
And here we go, in my opinion the coolest character in the game and what I believe to be the most diverse Ciel style. I'm so fascinated by everything F-Ciel can do. Yeah, she loses 214C and 236C, but oh well, she still has 22C for reversal and 236C has decent range/comes out pretty fast. 236A's a great low poke that you can even follow up with 63214A/C for extra damage if necessary. 236B on counter hit can follow into dash>2C with whatever follow-up desired. Flicker punch combos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H23_Gq4EM9Q) deal huge damage and can often be done on anywhere on the screen. My favorite thing about them though is that they can be special canceled on hit or whiff into 63214C and will act as either a command dash or grab with a clash frame, though at the cost of 100% MC. 5[C] rapes aerial jump ins and can combo into 236A loop. 3[C] is just amazing, I don't even need to get into it, overhead, can cancel into anything, etc. And the other really special ace for pressuring is her j214C. You can even do it off a whiffed/blocked 22A reversal to keep yourself safe and go on the pressure. In general F-Ciel's game rules the corner with constant pressure strings using all her new weapons to assist in mixups and frametraps. Outside of that though I don't see her with very much defensive opportunities with only shields and somer. Her key throws don't seem all that useful to me, though the 214C does leave them in oki and can special cancel.
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C can do some considerable damage as well. Granted, she has no way to keep the high damage and score an untechable knockdown at the same time. But with all her command normals, it feels easier to apply pressure considering how late you can cancel her moves.
F is the only style of the 3 where you can get both high damage and untechable knockdown. It's also the only style where you can get a reliable and safe high damage combo from her 4[ B ] overhead which is actually pretty fast now. The thing with F though, is that she doesn't really have any safe ways to charge the meter. The best I could think of is probably 236C, but that requires meter and kinda defeats the purpose because you're trying to build as much meter as you can. 236C doesn't really have any invincibility whatsoever either. You can do 63214B but it's probably the most vulnerable of the 3 command throws. So yeah, I think she's kinda gimped in meter building for F, having to build meter the old fashioned way. And you can't activate Heat if things get too rough.
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Most F chars can't charge any real amount of meter from any sort of setup, and a lot of times you wouldn't want to anyways. The lack of being able to heat in F is something I noticed as a huge pain the day I first played MBAA. It's one of the biggest limiting factors of any F character, and to an extent H character, though those build meter fast.
Also you can't do 236C into charge, because after doing an EX/Arc Drive/whatever, meter charge builds REALLY slowly. I haven't figured out exactly when it starts building fast again, but it's either time-based or until a player gets hit by something.
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F characters like W. Len, Ryougi, and Ries all have safe ways to charge their meter. W.Len has the plants, and Ryougi and Ries can end their air combos with a wall slam, giving them ample time to charge meter. Even F-Nanaya can safely charge after his 214B. I suppose not being able to safely charge meter feels like somewhat of a hindrance to Ciel since her supers are pretty good, namely j.214C. I didn't notice that there's a charge penalty after using supers, but I guess that means 236C is even less useful, if not completely useless, for charging.
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F characters like W. Len, Ryougi, and Ries all have safe ways to charge their meter. W.Len has the plants, and Ryougi and Ries can end their air combos with a wall slam, giving them ample time to charge meter. Even F-Nanaya can safely charge after his 214B. I suppose not being able to safely charge meter feels like somewhat of a hindrance to Ciel since her supers are pretty good, namely j.214C. I didn't notice that there's a charge penalty after using supers, but I guess that means 236C is even less useful, if not completely useless, for charging.
Please explain. Perhaps put it in the system mechanics section as it is, after all, a system mechanic.
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You mean the charging penalty after using supers? I would, but I'm still unaware of all the specifics. If anything, it's kinda like Guilty Gear's tension penalties that go into effect after using an attack that consumes your tension meter. Basically after using an attack that consumes meter, the rate at which you gain meter is reduced for a certain period of time.
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So I was messing around today, and found that doing j.bc ad.a dj.bc 22b 6e works pretty well as an air combo, does a little bit more damage (like 30-50dmg from what I can tell) and also looks really cool! (most important part)
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lol I actually tried that out when I was fiddling around with Half. When I was experimenting, j.BCA did the exact same damage overall as j.BC ad.A. There's probably some other stuff you do with the ad.
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Well, it does like 30-40 more dmg on longer combos, but off of say a2a ch j.b and you relaunch with 2c 5c or 5b j.bc j.bc 22b 6e does more than the AD variation, just seems to work pretty well on standard knockdown stuff, and it does look rather cool.
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Corner crossup setup 2aa 2b 3b 5cc 214[a] 2c 2a(whiff) sj land 2a, you can do the two backdash sandoori options off of those to, sj backdash j.c 236b, sj backdash whiff j.c land 2a.
Not sure on how much of the cast this works on, works on vsion//Nero (of course) so far.
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C-combos off of 4[ b ]
236b - Basic ender, leads to meaty j.c oki on hit and 236b pressure on block.
214bbb - Does more damage but you lose pressure.
623[a] xx 236c - Best combo to use, good damage and sets up oki.
623[a] xx 41236c - More damage than 236c. Unless the extra damage will kill or you're in blood heat with no red life left, sticking with 236c and saving meter is the better option imo.
22a xx j.623c (land) j.b dj j.bc xx 22b (xx 214c/xx 22c/, grab) - Corner/near corner only, does slightly more damage than 236c, is much harder, and you lose good oki. Not worth it 99% of the time. Only listed because it's the most damage that I could find without an arc drive available.
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About that C-Ciel guide...
236B - 214A/B: Ciel throws 3 Black Keys at a downward angle in a spread formation. If it hits the opponent they will be set aflame and knocked down. Pretty useful as it covers quite a bit of space and can keep the opponent from advancing towards you on the ground.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but those keys just won't set opponent aflame!
Oh, and her 236B move can be charged. Pretty hillarious. >_>
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Oops sorry about that. I fixed it. It just knocks them down instead of setting them on fire. Just a graphics change really. I'll add the j.236[ B ] part soon.
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So uh, like her old fuzzy guard works, but you can do 236b for like, a shitload of damage (IAD j.bc land j.c236b combo) I've only been able to get it to work on Nero//Wara but my execution is legendarily bad so anyone want to test it and see who they can get it to work on?
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It works on Warc, Kouma, Aoko, and Akiha from the random play ive had with her.
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Managed to hit it a bunch on vsion, I think it'll fuck up on hitboxes any shorter than hers, not sure who is though.
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HF, would it be possible for me to use the Normals//special info you wrote in here for the mizuumi wiki?
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HF, would it be possible for me to use the Normals//special info you wrote in here for the mizuumi wiki?
Go right ahead. If it's for the purpose of filling out the wiki I don't really mind.
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http://mbaa.mizuumi.net/index.php/Ciel#Crescent_Moon
Added it with the minimal amount of editing, the combo section could use more information though (not that c-ciel has all that much in the way of BnBs).
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So I've been reading the Ciel Wiki (Very helpful btw!) I was just unclear about the term "TKj" What does that mean?
Also what's the difference between 214[a] and 214a? Or 3b(1) and 3b, same for 5{c} and 5cc. My guess is something to do with timings, but I thought I'd ask to make sure. As you can probably tell I'm a beginner in terms of terms and notations but I'm getting the hang of a few of Ciel's BnBs.
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So I've been reading the Ciel Wiki (Very helpful btw!) I was just unclear about the term "TKj" What does that mean?
Also what's the difference between 214[a] and 214a? Or 3b(1) and 3b, same for 5{c} and 5cc. My guess is something to do with timings, but I thought I'd ask to make sure. As you can probably tell I'm a beginner in terms of terms and notations but I'm getting the hang of a few of Ciel's BnBs.
This is standard notation stuff, but TK = tiger knee which means to buffer the input so you can do it immediatly when you leave the ground, so you're Tiger Kneeing j.623c (which has an input of like 62369c). (1) = one hit of a multi hit move, {c} = half charge, [a] = full charge.
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A question
How i unlock Executioner Ciel???
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There is no such character.
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There is no such character.
Yes i know but
how i can play against executioner Ciel?
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When I was watching yumekami's C-Ciel matches, I noticed that after 214[A], he would do 2C 5C 2B j.BC sdj.BC, etc. Then I compared the damage with ...214[A] 2C 5C 4C j.CB sdj.BC etc. 5C into 2B ... actually doesmore damage than the 5C 4C... variant. About ~50 more, so it doesn't seem like much, but it's definitely more and not hard to do. Also, it would probably be a good idea to get into the habit of doing 3B after a 1-hit 2B if you're not sure if you're close enough to get 2 hits out of the 2B. This way you don't lose your combo due to spacing issues.
Random Note: This may not be new, but for C, 2B and 4C can still clash. I don't get these to happen frequently but it's still possible. I've managed to get 2B to clash with a heat activation and 4C to clash with a fireball.
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Yeah, the frame display tool shows clash frames at the top of both.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/shoot_the_works/CCiel4C.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/shoot_the_works/CCiel2B.jpg
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Theyre Very late in the moves