Melty Bread Forums
Atlas Academy => Melty Blood: Actress Again => Ciel => : COD3player March 20, 2009, 02:23:22 AM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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F-Ciel
I didn't spend as much time with F-Ciel as I did with C-Ciel but FM in general really changes things a lot. Namely the chaining system. Some moves simply cannot be chained together even if they aren't considered reverse beats otherwise. For example, 2B5B and 2C5C are NOT possible even though the second move of both strings are neither attacks of different button strength nor command normals. You also can't seem to air dash cancel your air normals. eg. j.C > air dash > air throw does NOT work.
Normals:
5A - A downward punch. Probably has about the same hitbox as C-Ciel's 5A.
5B - Looks just like C-Ciel's 5B except it doesn't trip crouchers.
5C - A backfist. Has more range than C-Ciel's 5C.
5[C] - Charged version of the move above and she's holding a knife this time. It seems to charge up pretty fast and it launches on hit and you can go straight into an air combo. I was unable to tell if hits overhead or not.
2A - Crouching elbow attack. Has really shitty range and I couldn't tell if it hit low or not.
2B - Crouching horizontal slash. Has good reach and moves her forward a little.
2C - Same has MBAC.
j.A - Same as MBAC.
j.B - A downward punch. Has a pretty good vertical hitbox below her arm.
j.C - Looks just like the second part of C-Ciel's 2BB.
Specials:
236A/B: Looks just like Yamazaki's snake arm attacks. 236A trips the opponent while 236B launches them up.
j.236A/B: j.236A is the same as C-Ciel's. j.236B will knock down opponents and put them in OTG state.
214A/B/C - A looks just like the second hit of C-Ciel's 5CC and it has the same effect. ie. it creates a hard impact that launches the opponent up slightly. 214B throws 3 knives upward at a 45 degree angle. 214C throws 3 knives downward at a 45 degree angle and can be chained from 214B.
j.214A/B - Same as MBAC Ciel's. This means j.214A stalls her in midair and allows her to follow up with any air special while she's falling.
623A/B - Same as C-Ciel's but can't be done in the air.
22A/B - Same as C-Ciel's.
63214A/B - Command dash. Looks just like her normal dash except she's followed by a trail of shadows. All versions have clash frames and if the opponent is on the ground after a certain time, they get thrown. A version is just her normal throw, B version is her air throw that causes wallslam though I couldn't follow it up with anything.
Command Normals:
3B - Same as C-Ciel's.
3C - Looks like the 2nd hit of C-Ciel's 2CC except it goes higher and you can chain into it. On hit it works just like the second hit of her 2BB and you can air combo after it. Can be special cancelled.
3[C] - Same as 3C?
4C - Same as C-Ciel's.
j.2C - Looks just like MBAC except it's not special/super cancellable anymore(?)
j.2[C] - Charged version of the above move. Properties unknown.
Supers:
236C - multi-hit 236 attack. Starts with 236B and if it connects will hit the opponent repeatedly and slam them into the wall.
j.214C - Throws a black key downward and once it hits the ground a wave of shadows comes up for multiple hits. Gives her complete control over the current match flow if it lands on block and hits 2 times. Airunblockable. If they are hit with the knife in the air they get ground slammed and the wave will freeze them long enough for you to dash in for a 236A loop.
22C - Same as C-Ciel's.
63214C - Super throw from command dash. 100% circuit is consumed immediately and when Ciel reaches the opponent the super flash occurs and she slams them into the ground with her air throw after flipping multiple times. Will also catch opponents in OTG state. Untechable.
Combos:
It was really hard to come up with some good combos since the chaining system in Fullmoon is so different. Here's what I managed to come up with for the few playthroughs I used Fullmoon.
Ancient oldschool BnB: 2ABC > 4C > j.BC > dj.BC > air throw
Tricky BnB: 2ABC > 4C > 236A > 5BC > j.BC > dj.BC > air throw (Does 4K+ damage)
Meter BnB: 2AAB5C > 214A > 2C > 236C
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F-ciel air 236B will hit knocked down opponents like an OTG.
63214C will grab opponents OTG. for example 2c > 214c > 63214C
also missed air623a/b
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Everything below concerns ver.A and nothing prior to that. Take note that not all of this is 100% accurate as there may be some things that I am unaware of and I'm sure there are plenty. If a move is exactly the same as it is in MBAC from my observations, it will be listed as such.
C-Ciel:
Normals:
5A - Mid-hitting punch to the opponent's mid-section. She loses her old 6AAA combo (has it in Half-moon with different properties). Since it hits mid, it hits crouchers reliably. The old 5A4C anti-jump string still works and it works perfectly after air CHs.
5B - Same as MBAC.
5C - Same as MBAC but it's now whiff cancellable. Pressing 5C again will trigger the sword throw which is still special-cancellable but not shield-cancellable.
5[C] - Same as 5C but with higher damage and does a noticeable chunk of damage to the opponent's guard meter.
2A - Same as MBAC.
2B - Has less range and possibly a little more startup. Not 100% sure if clash frames are still present. 2B again will trigger the same followup attack with the same poperties.
2C - Same as MBAC. 2CC is also the same.
j.A - Same as MBAC.
j.B - Same as MBAC.
J.C - Same as MBAC.
Command Normals:
3B - New move. It's the 2-hit handstand kick. Works very much like the old 2B did in combos and blockstrings. It moves further than 2B. Can be canceled into pretty much anything.
4B - Same as MBAC.
--> 236B. No longer causes wallslam but rather an untechable knockdown. Will actually connect against airborne opponents if the initial 4B connects.
[4B] - Now special/super cancellable.
4C - Same as MBAC except the clash frames appear to be gone(?).
j.2C - Same as MBAC? j.2[C] is new but I'm unsure of the properties.
Specials:
214A/B and all variations: Still the same as MBAC.
214[A]: New. Looks just like 214A except its charge and upon impact, the opponent freezes for a little bit and gets hit by an explosion that launches them upward. NO THE INFINITE DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE.
j.214A/B: j.214A is different and will allow Ciel to retain her air momentum when she performs the move. As such, there is a minimum height requirement. If you do the move too low to the ground, it won't come out at all. j.214B and its followups are still the same.
236A/B: 236A seems to have more startup than before and all the followups seem intact. 236B is more or less the same with all its followups as well.
j.236A/B: j.236A now seems to go downward at a 30 degree angle instead of 45.
623A/B: 623A only hits once and barely travels anywhere now. 623B is still the same. These moves can also be done in the air.
22A/B: Still the same. Although if you do j.22B, you can still air dash if you haven't used it already.
Supers:
214C - Same as MBAC. Though probably much safer on block due to the absence of bara cancels(?). j.214C is still the same.
236C - Still launches grounded opponents but there's enough recovery to make it impossible to follow up with a relaunch combo. The super is UNTECHABLE unless it hits the opponent in OTG state. Still a great tech punisher.
j.236C - Same as MBAC.
623C - Can no longer charge, travels pretty far, comes out DAMN fast, and passes through the opponent on block or hit. Looks kinda safe. Opponent gets launched on hit. j.623C induces wallslam.
22C - Air version is still the same. Not sure if the ground version retains its super cancel properties.
Both Arc Drives are the same, didn't test the last arc.
Combos:
Due to the new chaining rules regarding reverse beats (RBs) and some of the changes of her moves, new combos are possible/recommended. I'll list the ones that I used most often but there are some other variations that still work too. Willl probably list a flowchart at some point.
Basic no RB BnB: 2AA > 2B > 3B > 2C > 5C > 4C > j.C > dj.B-C > j.22B > air throw (It is now possible to link air throw after j.22B)
BnB vs crouchers: 2AA > 2B > 3B > 5CC > 2C > 5C > 4C > j.C > dj.B-C > j.22B > air throw
Shield cancel combo replacement: 2AA > 2B > 3B > 5CC > 214[A] > dash > j.C-B > dj.BC > air throw
EX BnB (must be close to the corner): 2AA > 2B > 3B/4C > 5C > 6239C > j.C-A-B > dj.B-C > air throw
Combo off overhead: [4B] > 623A > 236C. REALLY friggin' hard. There's probably better options but I didn't go into this one too much.
Note: It is possible to end combos with 4B>236B for a guranteed knockdown but I forgot most of the setups for it. <.<
As you can see, like most other characters, C-Ciel retains a lot of her moves from MBAC. She seems weaker overall by comparison but still pretty solid. The fact that 5C and 5[C] are now whiff cancellable means that you can come up with some new blockstrings that can eat away at the opponent's guard meter. As of this post I'm still unsure what the input is for the special where she throws multiple knives at once.
F-Ciel:
I didn't spend as much time with F-Ciel as I did with C-Ciel but FM in general really changes things a lot. Namely the chaining system. Some moves simply cannot be chained together even if they aren't considered reverse beats otherwise. For example, 2B5B and 2C5C are NOT possible even though the second move of both strings are neither attacks of different button strength nor command normals. You also can't seem to air dash cancel your air normals. eg. j.C > air dash > air throw does NOT work.
Normals:
5A - A downward punch. Probably has about the same hitbox as C-Ciel's 5A.
5B - Looks just like C-Ciel's 5B except it doesn't trip crouchers.
5C - A backfist. Has more range than C-Ciel's 5C.
5[C] - Charged version of the move above and she's holding a knife this time. It seems to charge up pretty fast and it launches on hit and you can go straight into an air combo. I was unable to tell if hits overhead or not.
2A - Crouching elbow attack. Has really shitty range and I couldn't tell if it hit low or not.
2B - Crouching horizontal slash. Has good reach and moves her forward a little.
2C - Same has MBAC.
j.A - Same as MBAC.
j.B - A downward punch. Has a pretty good vertical hitbox below her arm.
j.C - Looks just like the second part of C-Ciel's 2BB.
Specials:
236A/B: Looks just like Yamazaki's snake arm attacks. 236A trips the opponent while 236B launches them up.
214A/B/C - A looks just like the second hit of C-Ciel's 5CC and it has the same effect. ie. it creates a hard impact that launches the opponent up slightly. 214B throws 3 knives upward at a 45 degree angle. 214C throws 3 knives downward at a 45 degree angle and can be chained from 214B.
j.214A/B - Same as MBAC Ciel's. This means j.214A stalls her in midair and allows her to follow up with any air special while she's falling.
623A/B - Same as C-Ciel's but can't be done in the air.
22A/B - Same as C-Ciel's.
63214A/B - Command dash. Looks just like her normal dash except she's followed by a trail of shadows. All versions have clash frames and if the opponent is on the ground after a certain time, they get thrown. A version is just her normal throw, B version is her air throw that causes wallslam though I couldn't follow it up with anything.
Command Normals:
3B - Same as C-Ciel's.
3C - Looks like the 2nd hit of C-Ciel's 2CC except it goes higher and you can chain into it. On hit it works just like the second hit of her 2BB and you can air combo after it. However, the properties on block are herrendous. From the many times I've tried, you can't do ANYTHING if it gets blocked.
Supers:
236C - mult-hit 236 attack. Starts with 236B and if it connects will hit the opponent repeatedly and slam them into the wall.
j.214C - Throws a black key downward and once it hits the ground a wave of shadows comes up for multiple hits. If the opponent gets hit by the black key, they are frozen for a little bit but it doesn't seem long enough to hit them. Further testing is required.
22C - Same as C-Ciel's.
63214C - Super throw from command dash. 100% circuit is consumed immediately and when Ciel reaches the opponent the super flash occurs and she slams them into the ground with her air throw after flipping multiple times. Untechable.
Combos:
It was really hard to come up with some good combos since the chaining system in Fullmoon is so different. Here's what I managed to come up with for the few playthroughs I used Fullmoon.
Ancient oldschool BnB: 2ABC > 4C > j.BC > dj.BC > air throw
Tricky BnB: 2ABC > 4C > 236A > 5BC > j.BC > dj.BC > air throw (Does 4K+ damage)
Meter BnB: 2AAB5C > 214A > 2C > 236C
It's past 3 and I've been out pretty much all day so chances are I probably missed some things that I wanted to mention.
Just what I expected, although there is a few things I have to point in this post.
4>236B Always caught characters airborne since MBAC, although it was NEVER worth using it's pretty funny just seeing them two float in mid-air. I'm pretty sure with j.2C you can't special it like you could in MBAC which sucks....badly. I'm saying this because I've never seen anyone special cancel it since the game first came out so.....lame. For her 4B>236B knockdown I've seen JP players do blah blah blah >>>214[A]>2C>4B>236B.
Since 2C5C is pretty much impossible in FM I'm assuming that 2C4C is very well possible since it's listed in your combo list....GOOD SHIT! Also, thank god she retains her momentum with her J.214A like she does in HM/MBAC it's devastating that she loses it in CM, but I wonder if she retains her momentum with j.214C...that'd be too gdlk. With her 236A BNB you know it's possible to do more than just one rep. blah blah blah>236A xx 5A>5B>236A xx 5A>5B>236A xx 5B>5C airstring. Last, but not least I'm pretty sure you can special/EX cancel her 3C on block....according to Akira that is...it'd really suck if that's not the case.
Good shit on the write-up BTW.
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Thank you guys for pointing those out. I knew I missed some things and they just slipped my mind while I was playing. I'll make changes accordingly and probably write-up a to-do list as well for anyone who feels like testing things that are still kinda unclear. If any of you want to test Halfmoon then go right ahead and give a detailed writeup seeing that I won't be able to play the game for the next week and also so that this thread isn't just limited to C/F styles. I forgot to list 4C in FM so I'll do that but it's just like the one in CM.
I knew that in FM 236A could be looped but I wasn't sure how to do it. The Tricky BnB is tricky because if you do 4C too soon after 2C, the 236A won't connect because they'll be too high or they'll tech before hitting the ground. Likewise if you do it too late they fall to the ground too fast. More than anything I was surprised it could do roughly 4.5K to some characters. Kind of a bummer that 5C can't be done after 2C because I think that's more reliable since she moves forward and you can't air dash cancel your air normals.
Edit:
Though the updates are minor, they are highlighted in red. All major updates will follow this convention.
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CM last arc is the same and does 4.5-5k dmg depending on character. HM seems to be alot of fun see retains the 6aa in the "would be shield cancel combo" for decent damage and she can do the really cool 4b charge combo. She also has a funcky spin kick that launches her forward but doesnt look too safe on block (63214a/b?). Also no 5cc, Obaloney looks to be maining this version of ciel so he would have a lot more information.
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This what I've learned for F-Ciel while playing at AI.
Proper BnB is 2A>2B>2C>4C>236A>5AB>236A>5BC>j.BC>j.BC>22A>throw
Though it's questionable if you want to do that instead of just getting knockdown in some situations - replace 5BC into 5B>4C>236A.
3C is special cancelable on block, so there's some fun to be had there, and I've also found it to be a pretty good anti air in place of 4C at times thanks to hitboxes.
j.214C is pretty good on oki - gives her complete control over the current match flow if it lands on block and hits 2 times, and is air unblockable. If they are hit with the knife in the air they get ground slammed and the wave will freeze them long enough for you to dash in and land a 236A loop.
Her command grab, most unfortunately, is pretty gimmicky. It's definately no white len grab or kouma dunk. You have to make the opponent scared to do anything on defense to make it worthwhile since you can get thrown or mashed out of it - EX version clash frames get their ass kicked by 2AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
236A/B/C are multipurpose outside of combos. You can use 236A for frame traps - I've confirmed 236A>214A, 236A>236C. 236A>623B>236C, 236A>236A to be safe on block and leave you at the advantage. 236B is good for anti-jump during pressure, but your opponent can tech right out. It has to be spaced close enough so you can follow up properly. 236C beats most deep jumpins and wallslams, so it's better than 22C in some situations.
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Edit: Sorry, wrong thread.
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I knew that in FM 236A could be looped but I wasn't sure how to do it. The Tricky BnB is tricky because if you do 4C too soon after 2C, the 236A won't connect because they'll be too high or they'll tech before hitting the ground. Likewise if you do it too late they fall to the ground too fast. More than anything I was surprised it could do roughly 4.5K to some characters. Kind of a bummer that 5C can't be done after 2C because I think that's more reliable since she moves forward and you can't air dash cancel your air normals.
Figured the timing will be character dependent.
With that being said...Here's my obligatory fuck you to the Ciel players who are playing this game....Fuck you :V
Now that I got that out of my system, It's about damn time someone figured some IH shenanigans with F-Ciel...I KNOW there's some :( . Like being able to IH 214A would be a great tool if possible. Also, I'm curious as to is it possible to chain 2B>2C? If so that would make the BNB I'm thinking of possible or easier at least and assuming you can IH 214A (I don't see why not, but who knows).
2A>2B>(3B, if possible)>5C>214A(Instant Heat if possible)>dash>2C>4C>mist finer (236A) loop>airstring or knockdown. I figured IH'ing the 214A would make the 2C follow up easier, although I know it's possible to do the follow w/o it.
I'm pretty sure 2B will combo into 5C anyway, but it would increase damage and bring you closer to your opponent to make the 214A xx 2C easier...but I can only theory fight at this point and it fucking blows...April 17th please come already <_<
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Next time I'm down I'll look into IHing into bullshit; sounds like it could have some good setups for her command grab/TK j.214C now that I think about it. After messing around with 3B though, it doesn't seem worth it to throw into combos with F-Ciel thanks to proration on everything else. It's great in blockstrings though; makes a lot of people regret poking out only to eat FWAP FWAP into 236A loop. Also, if you can IH 214A it might be better to 5B>4C for damage. Dunno for sure though; just experience with using the two for launches. I'll do some proper homework on it at a later date.
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I dunno how I forgot about the whole IH stuff but yeah. You're sure 2C5C works in FM though? I could have sworn I tried it MULTIPLE times and the game wouldn't allow me. Like after comboing into 214A, you can actually link a 2C afterwards but you're too far to properly combo into or out of 4C at that range. I'm pretty sure 2C5C isn't possible.
Good thing we're all providing input. I'll update all the moves above and list some applications while making the first post sound like less of a narrative and more like a report.
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wait 2c5c works in FM? if so i might try this new combo. i hate 2c4c
i've also noticed that her crescent 236b gouki flip into grab is MUCH harder to time now. on the bright side 236b is much more controllable, so if you hold back you can land much farther.
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Oh whoops, sorry total typo. I apologize for exciting you guys and have fixed it >: Dash up 5B>4C can work after 214A>IH in theory, though.
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236A/B is chargeable
full charge will pretty much double the height of the jump. its fun but i dont know if its useful cuz it doesnt grant clash or anything.
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was the 63214 throw blockable, i can't remember
i think someone tried it on me but i just blocked low and it didn't happen
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Ok so outside of a shitty, inaccurate, and overall not funny Ciel flowchart (They're so Febuary 2009) it's about time this forum got a legit buff.
So like does anyone know anything about the specific properties on F-Ciel's j.214C on block? Everytime I see a F-CIel land this move they block the knife, but still gets hit by the shadow. Is the shadow unblockable or something? I'd figure someone who played the game would know something about it. Also...236A/B is chargable? Which style we're talking here?
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Uhh, looks like F-Ciel's 3[C] is cancellable on whiff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fubosQRRkkg @2:08
...uhh, rather the recovery is not that large and it renders her airborne. Antijumpout into overheads blockstrings ownage?
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http://www.youtube.com/user/T3574M3N7#uploads/0/_uhI570Y_AA
Nice combo and crossup after at starting at 1:37
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http://www.youtube.com/user/T3574M3N7#uploads/0/_uhI570Y_AA
Nice combo and crossup after at starting at 1:37
After seeing that vid, I would like to quote a post in the MBAA thread.
I should've been more specific. What I meant to say was how can they block the knife on the ground, but yet get hit by the shadow still?
We have a framedata topic... j/k I know it's a bitch to try to figure out what move is what and it took me a bit of pain myself to look it up.
That attack is retarded. I never would have known if I didn't look it up, but the knife can be blocked in all positions, the wave hits low. It can't be airblocked or blocked high. The knife itself is a 1000 damage knife, the wave does 100 damage, no red or guard damage on block, 17f blockstun like normal, and holds the opponent in a stun state on hit.
Wow what the fuck that sounds like some Eddie unblockable shit right there.
At 1:53, didn't Wara block the wave high?
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http://www.youtube.com/user/T3574M3N7#uploads/0/_uhI570Y_AA
Nice combo and crossup after at starting at 1:37
After seeing that vid, I would like to quote a post in the MBAA thread.
I should've been more specific. What I meant to say was how can they block the knife on the ground, but yet get hit by the shadow still?
We have a framedata topic... j/k I know it's a bitch to try to figure out what move is what and it took me a bit of pain myself to look it up.
That attack is retarded. I never would have known if I didn't look it up, but the knife can be blocked in all positions, the wave hits low. It can't be airblocked or blocked high. The knife itself is a 1000 damage knife, the wave does 100 damage, no red or guard damage on block, 17f blockstun like normal, and holds the opponent in a stun state on hit.
Wow what the fuck that sounds like some Eddie unblockable shit right there.
At 1:53, didn't Wara block the wave high?
Looks like it. Framedata says low. Lokanas also says it hits low from testing. I don't know what exactly happened.
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http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7415624
...What tier is C-Ciel, again? :o
Edit: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7415677
The rape continues, but with F-Ciel... Holy shit, 5.7k...
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F-Ciel has DAMAGE, like mad damage, as far as I can tell, that's about it, though.
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F-CL
IH Exploit
*J22A/B are both IHC'able
Command 1: 282>ABC
This will cause ciel to jump but a pixel from the floor and land instantly w/o recovery.
Ciel can fall early and "land" with 2A or throw.
Command 2: 282>E~E
Note: after 282 you must wait slightly for ciel to leave the ground unlike with command 1. ALSO after the 282 command you MUST be neutral when strumming E~E (282>wait>neutral>E>tap E again).
Command 2 allows ciel to jump about 1/2 of a character sprite vertically to perform an INSTANT jC. In appearance, this is reminiscent of GG's Faust when he uses j2k>faultless cancel>jHP
p.s. F-CL sucks... :(
but at least she's fun!!!
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F-CL
IH Exploit
*J22A/B are both IHC'able
Command 1: 282>ABC
This will cause ciel to jump but i pixel from the floor and land instantly w/o recovery.
Ciel can fall early and "land" with 2A or throw.
Command 2: 282>E~E
Note: after 282 you must wait slightly for ciel to leave the ground unlike with command 1. ALSO after the 282 command you MUST be neutral when strumming E~E (282>wait>neutral>E>tap E again).
Command 2 allows ciel to jump about 1/2 of a character sprite vertically to perform an INSTANT jC. In appearance, this is reminiscent of GG's Faust when he uses j2k>faultless cancel>jHP
p.s. F-CL sucks... :(
but at least she's fun!!!
Spooky told me about this on IRC the other day. I'll have to test it out some more.
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F-cl
half screen / three-quarter screen confirm **Opponent in corner***
214A>623C>jA*3>delay j22B>dj8ABC>delay 22B>airthrow
214A produces untechable launcher on hit. When it strikes it's extremely easy to confirm the hit and land a 623C at the given distance then follow up with a combo for some awesome damage. Not bad for landing a random projectile from nearly full screen.
....did i mention that this F-cl is fun?
Note:
to practice, set dummy to enemy defence: ALL GUARD + enemy defense type: RANDOM
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random notes:
Command Throws 63214A/B/C
A
Dash into throw that tosses opponent to opposite side. Clash frames appear to activate when Ciel leans fully into the dash animation. Can only clash up to one hit which can also be mashed (ie 2AAA). No other action can be performed from the dash as with a normal clash situation. Although the throw is similar in appearance to the normal throw, 63214A actually yields more frame advantage on down allowing for more elaborate setups or to setup the next offense sooner
B
Dash throw that tosses opponent to the wall and induces wall bound. No clash frames present. EXTREMELY difficult to combo from but two option are available if B throw is landed on a cornered opponent:
Combo1
63214B>airthrow
very simple combo followup from B command throw that leads to knockdown. The airthrow will leave you low enough to the ground to be able to set up a (mediocre) wakeup game.
Combo2
6324B>jABC>delay j22B>djABC>dj22B>airthrow
Time to break something. I'm convinced this combo is a 1~2f link (may vary vs some characters?). Scores about 3k from this so I guess it's worth the effort- it's just....really hard to do. :emo:
C
Dashes into throw and high flying adventure. Throw has clash in the "full leaning" animation similar to the A version. Can also be mashed after clash and will not grab instantly. Throw gives aerial movement after (ie jumps, airdashes, specials, etc). C command throw can actually be controlled by holding 4 as the grab connects (neutral will result in a forward throw by default). This grab leads to very brain-dead wake up game by simply airdashing forward after:
option1
airdash>jC
guaranteed meaty
option2
airdash>early jC whiff>go low or throw
tricks or whatever. you also have the option to whiff jC late for the same effect
option3
airdash>late j2[c]
delay your landing a bit.
I'm sure the are a number of options to cycle through to throw the opponent off on the wakeup above are just the primary and basic options. Versus a cornered opponent, throwing them away from the corner gives you the option of crossing up with a meaty jC should you dash the moment ciel recovers from the airthrow. A slight delay in the dash will cause her to land in front to vary the mixup (very similar to MBAC midscreen throw shenanigans)
236B (aka "PIKACHU" HANDZZZZ :psyduck:)
Good, fast, midscreen poking tool. Unairblockable. Learning to space properly with this will keep players from blindly rushing in and will keep others from moving around to hastily. Inputting an IAD command (676 or j7>6A+B) out of anticipation of 236B striking is a good habit to develop. Option Select IAD is useful in the case that one of the two situations can occur:
Hit
The Flicker lands and you immediately IAD on hit which will allow you to followup with a hard hitting combo:
236B>iad>jC>land>jBC>djBC>dj22b>airthrow or j214c
versus some characters (eg tohno shiki [I haven't tested the entire cast yet])
236B>iad>jC>land>jabc>delay j22b>djabc>j22b>airthrow
Guard/Miss
Flicker whiffs or is guarded. 236B can only be jump canceled on hit so if the hit doesn't occur then nothing happens and you get enough time to plan you next action during the short recovery.
eg
236B>236B
tag a jump out or other movement
236B>236A
"ashimoto chui da"
236B>623A
extremely tight guard string....but she gets nothing confirmable on hit (lol sad character)
236B>63214C or dash in
If you think they're scared to move then go for it.
236B is weak against sliding lows so watch out. If you're getting hit by lows that aren't sliding then you're not spacing right. You gotta out-box. :V
BE5C (>236A)
GDLK anti-air. Just shortly after startup, the clash frames kick in. Hold C until the clash occurs then release and cancel into 236A for optimal damage. The released C will either hit them airborne (in which you combo into 236A which will itself lead to pikachu loops) or they will land into 236A (guarded or hit will still be no real disadvantage). Recommended vs opponents that fall with jumping attacks or vs "arcing" IADs that are easy to react to.
BE4B (>236B)
Surprise, surprise. Another good anti-air option. This is better for players with slower reflexes as clash will kick in a bit earlier. BE4B stikes a bit later for some reason and will often not score you an air CH. This is why it's best to buffer in the 236B command after to land the finisher and a good knockdown. If they land and guard, 236B is executed instead (+1 ?). BE4B is also recommended vs characters that have fast, low altitude and linear air dashes e.g. Ryougi or Aoko. BE5C you'd have to start a bit earlier and that's just enough time to get you smacked in the head.
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more random F-Ciel notes people won't care about:
IH after air throw
Just what it says- Fcl can Initiative Heat after descending from airthrow. She retains whatever aerial movement that has not been used after. E.g. 2c>4c>jbc>jbc>j22b>airthrow>IH>airdash. A good way to instant regen and strike from above on opponent's wake up. Best method for performing the technique is [6]A+B+C>A+B. For some reason inputting the airdash manually gets terrible results (for me at least).
Fuzzy guard vs Nero/Wara
jC>dj>airdash>jAC
Should the opponent try to crouch guard after the jC, jA will hit them in crouching state then jC will land to combo while still allowing you to continue a ground combo afterward. Best method for stick users to perform the dj>airdash is: jC>676>jAC. It's similar to a ground IAD and in this instance will give you a very low altitude double jump into immediate air dash. One good way to set this up is off a corner otg that ends with 4B>236B. It sets up the perfect timing for a deep sj9C to land meaty.
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Brandino's random thoughts on F-Ciel:
3C/3[C]: After hearing about this replacing her 2CC back when MBAA first came out I was very skeptical and watching vids of F-Ciel's ( or lack of at the time ) only made me even more skeptical. But after testing the move out and figuring out the properties, I'm willing to say this is a great move. It's cancellable on hit or block and 3[C] is cancellable on whiff. You can use this in a similar fashion of the 2CC mixup from C/H moon and do stuff like:
3C/[C]>j.214C <<<<Works mid-screen and corner for ++++++++frames
3C/[C]>j.236A <<<<< Works when you make your opponent scared to poke out and you can use that with the following...
3C/[C]>j.236A xx 63214A/C <<<<<< Great command grab setup for scared opponents and assurance when people try to mash out thanks to the clash frames. (Although command grab only has clash frames for 1 hit so be careful with this)
3C/[C]>j.236A xx throw <<<<<< typical AC style tick throw setup
3[C]>IAD J.B xx .... <<<<< IAD pressure string
3C is also hit confirmable from 3B (one hit) and 5[C].
J.214C: This move along with her command grab pretty much swayed me into playing F-Ciel. This move has a "mid" hitting hitbox (the knife), but the shadow that proceeds it hits low. It gives you tons of ++++++++++++++ frames on block and on hit it puts the opponent in a CH state pretty much giving you a free combo. Using this move during a airstring J.B>J.C>J.B>J.C>j.22C>J.214C gives you a knockdown + oki opotions. What I like to do is use this move after a *blocked* 3C/[C] to start my rushdown .
63214A/B/C: This is the other reason why I wanted to play F-Ciel so bad. A comboable command grab with 1 clash frame (A/C version) and both options give you oki options. Zar posted the options with the C version and as he noted they're pretty straight forward and how the C version has more advantage on knockdown as opposed to her normal throw. You can come up with some weird, gimmicky setups for the command grab (mostly by using them in blockstrings) with the most common being:
4B/[ B ]>63214A/C
3B>63214A/C
5[C]>63214A/C
3C>j.236A xx 63214A/C
The problem with this is that the command grabs only have 1 clash frame (With the B version having 0 ) so you're still suspect to 2AAAAA mashing and it has poor recovery so if you miss this command grab you'll be boarding the pain train.
236A/B: I won't lie. When I first heard of this move I wasn't really all that hype for it. It wasn't till I saw the A version being looped into itself and the damage she got out of it I was getting hype for it. The A version hit's low, the B version hit's "mid" and both versions are EX cancellable on hit, block, or whiff. All versions are safe on block and the B version is JCable. You can do some pretty nifty blockstrings with these two moves alone with linking them into other specials such as:
236A/B xx 236A/B
236A/B xx 623C
236A/B xx 63214C
214A: I like the new version of 214A. It gives you a untechable launcher just like the 2nd part of Ciel's 5CC in Crescent. You can use it in the same manner it was used in MBAC except now you get even more time to get a high damaging combo. The B and C versions I really haven't used enough to make my own opinion on them.
Overall, I like what they did to this character, but I sort of don't like it. I think she has potential to be very solid as long as you don't try to play her like MBAC ( lololol 2B and mad mixups) and with the new tools she have 3[C]/j.214C/command grabs you'll have to mixup your blockstrings between high and low, making good use of the +frames you get from j.214C, and making your opponent scared to poke out rather than trying to mixup your opponent post airthrow.
I'll give more input on her, but as now I'm lazy. :V
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3C is also hit confirmable from 3B (one hit) and 5[C].
Use enemy STAND/CROUCH (status), ALL GUARD(defense), RANDOM (defense type) to test this...have fun.
J.214C: This move along with her command grab pretty much swayed me into playing F-Ciel. This move has a "mid" hitting hitbox (the knife), but the shadow that proceeds it hits low.
enemy CROUCH, ALL GUARD. Knife hits low and must be crouch guarded. Shadows/Waves hit mid and can be guarded however (ie just keep blocking low). The shadows/waves are also air unblockable and will produce air and ground untechable hit (combo followup if you're on your toes). The knife can be air guarded though.
p.s. Using "[ B ]" in your notations will give you bold text for the remainder of your post lol. I had starting using that shitty "BE" notation to get my point across. I'd really like to use the "american" style indication for charging but don't know how to get around this w/o using spaces. :-\
Improvement on IH exploit
Command 2: 282>E~E
Note: after 282 you must wait slightly for ciel to leave the ground unlike with command 1. ALSO after the 282 command you MUST be neutral when strumming E~E (282>wait>neutral>E>tap E again).
New Command: 282>5E~C
Above command will still give you sj8>22A>instant jC cancel. The difference now is that you don't have to strum anything. I personally had a lot of trouble with the 5E~E command because I would strum too fast (w/o releasing then pressing the button again) and only one input would be registered. Using 5E~C lets you get around this as you can hold E then hit C and still get C attack. Only problem with this is that if you were holding 2 at any point when hitting E you WILL get a 22C. This does not happen with the 5E~E method and will give you just j22A if you mess up. This is why it's very important to release the lever to 5 briefly then E~C.
**New-NEW Command**
272>5E~C
Just figured out how I was doing this without getting the sj dust animation. This method is a bit more difficult as it requires more accuracy (I could only get it on p1 side :( ). The input will let Ciel back jump into j22A. This is significant because normal jumps have faster startup than super/high jumps. In other words, the instant jC will be able to execute a few frames faster by jumping back (you barely see a back jump though).
BE4B>214A VS Semi-charge 4B>236A
Stole this from Tsa.
BE4B>214A
Overhead into untechable A knife. Follow into combo for some serious damage (preferably 2c>delay 4c>low flicker>...). This works how overheads normally work lol. Opponent crouch guards and gets owned in the face- simple.
Semi-charge 4B>236A / 4{B}>236A
Here's where the fun starts. Opponent sees 4B startup animation and prepares to high guard anticipating the FULL charge. The 4B executes earlier than it should (opponent still waiting for "spark" cue to correct guard) then gets struck low with 236A. The instant knockdown will allow you to setup an otg 63214C for corner positioning or dash>2a>5a>5b>236a otg for a more damaging variation at midscreen. In the corner however, you can go for an otg into 4B>236B which will produce a better knockdown for no meter. e.g. dash>2a>5a*4>5b>2b>4b>236b
For players with uber defense, cancel BE4B or 4{B} into a command throw instead as Brandino had mentioned in a notation in the post before this one.
3C Combo JUST FOR BRANDINO (no homo)
Because you love that damn 3C so much, here's a combo that I will try to build on (hopefully someone else will too...ok, lemme stop lying cus no one plays this bitch).
Corner
Dash 2a*3>5b>2b>2c>3c>jab>delay jc>land>3c>j22b>djaabc>dj22b>airthrow (was tested vs akiha)
Ikagassu ka~? It's got TWO 3C's! Anyway, cancel first 3c into jab immediately then follow with the absurd delay jc back into 3c. The damage is pretty good but x2 flicker will get more damage in the end (F[uck]Ciel :emo:). I'll see if it's possible to add more stuff to this later.
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More notes to gloss over:
Yet ANOTHER improvement on IH>JC exploit
Ok, this is IT. The improvement to end all improvements. This command tweak is so buff that you'll have to wire your jaw shut. Here it is:
292>5E~C
It's simply (or not) a super jump forward variation of the others I've mentioned. Why is this so awesome?
282
Super jump neutral as I've learned recently is actually a bit slower than sj forward. Therefore you'd have to wait longer to ascend to the favorable height for a jC to extend fully. It's still fast but relatively easy to react to.
272
A jumping back variation as I've mentioned in earlier posts. Normal jump startup allows you to take action a few frames earlier than with super jumping. **In MBAC, normal jumping was universally 4f start up while super jumping varied among the cast. Super jumping overall was considered slower on start up in comparison. For MBAA I think it's safe to say that the same logic applies although the super jump start up numbers may have changed.** The 272 will essentially let you attack sooner with a low jC at the cost of having to put a bit more work in to execution. Another "problem" with the 272 variation is the Ciel will move slightly backward in the air due to the back jump. A combo followup after landing the jC with this variation is still rather easy but positioning will have to be considered when landing as the player may be set a bit further back (depends on how fast the player executes the command before jumping too far back). This method is also wtf fast.
292
This is the ultimate; the command to shenanigans that ends all shenanigans. 292 is obviously the super jumping forward command but is far superior to aforementioned yucky commands for a few reasons (with the last being most significant):
1) Apparently sj startup for 29 and 28 are not the same as I had expected. After multiple tests (and fuck-ups), I noticed that I was able to cancel and attack much sooner with a forward super jump than with a neutral.
2) Super jumping forward also helped me stay right on top of the target and continue a full combo or longer blockstring after executing the jC. Although this was a bit more difficult to execute than the 282 command, getting such a nice trajectory from the sj9 made me consider training up on it more intensely.
3) So after some more drilling I decided to see how effective it was on wake up (now here's the fun part). I decide to set it up off Acommand throw then dash>292>E~C. Just the look of it alone made me burst into laughter (cus it looks that fucked up). I dummy record it then play it back and I was quite pleased with the results. Crossups in MB can be guarded in either direction and are not "true" crossups as opposed to the ever-popular SF series and the way to get around this was by using double jumps to force the opponent to correct their guard. If F-Ciel were to jump behind you and jC you would would be able to effectively guard in either direction and only have to deal with the followup upon her landing. The 292>5E~C command as a "crossup" IS indeed a genuine crossup as in you MUST correct your guard (opposite to attacker) in order to defend against this. When Ciel super jumps past the target then performs the command she is automatically repositioned in mid-air and turned to the back of the opponent (now facing them). For whatever reason, the game now thinks that Ciel started originally on the opposite side of the opponent and therefore you must guard away from them without being able to rely on an all-purpose guard against crossups. On top of dealing with a real crossup, the defender must also deal with the fact that this command pretty much produces an overhead hit at extremely fast speed (safe to say fastest jumping overhead with exception of fuzzies).
The best ways to set up are by dashing in after either a normal throw (vs characters with slow rising rate), end a combo with A flicker, or 63214A. Dashing in won't necessarily telegraph a crossup either. The option to use the 282 command is still viable and will destroy players that will try to guard the crossup (by walking forward) out of anticipation. Also, if at point blank range and the opponent is crouching, you have to option to slip in a 292 overhead by delaying the 5E~C input just slightly after the sj starts. Even if the opponent manages to stand at the last second, Ciel would have slipped past and the proper guard would have to be made immediately. Lastly, the option to 292 or 282+ABC still remains. As mentioned in an earlier post, this will let you land much sooner for a chance to throw or 2a.
This technique is so clutch and I can see a lot of F-Ciels (lol) stealing rounds with this. I'm kind of surprised all two of Japan's F-Ciels aren't running this already.
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This is to keep the lurkers busy:
Corner Throw IAD Crossup + Options
Against some characters Ciel can IAD after a throw and cross over into the corner.
O
Hisui
Nero
Satsuki
S.Akiha
Mecha Hisui
Warc
Arc
Akiha
Kouma
Nanaya
T.Shiki
V.Akiha (**must j9 then air dash to force crossup otherwise Ciel will land in front**)
Aoko (**IAD then early jC will force crossup. Not attacking at the earliest possible moment from IAD will result in Ciel landing in front** <thanks to Brandino for this info> )
Options after IAD Crossup
IAD>jC
Simple kick to the back of the head. Expect it to be guarded/evaded often.
IAD>jC>dj2[C]
This is a pretty zany crossup. Opponent must continue to stand guard after the jC crossup. The dj2[C] will crossup again placing Ciel out of the corner (lol).
IAD>jA or jB>Throw
The jA/jB will whiff completely, leaving open the option to land and throw again. This WILL lose to wake up shield due to the expanding hitbox on the shield animation. Remedy this by attacking with jA, jB or jC at the last possible moment so that the landing recovery is mitigated and land>throw becomes available again.
IAD>jC>j2C or j236A
Jump C into either dive. Throw option is available here too or you can land and 2a to counter (there are actually a number of counters to throw-break attempt here but I'll just keep it simple)
(*experimental*) IAD>dj236B
Haven't tested this yet but the intention is to tag wake up forward dash in attempts to evade the crossup jC (This works with another setup I have with 63214A). As of now, a simple Throw>j2C seems to be the best answer to an opponent waking up with forward dash to leave the corner.
Crossup>Fuzzy vs Wara/Nero
Dash>j8C>dj>airdash>jAB or jAC
(Dash>j8C>676>jAB or jAC)
**Assuming you are facing right (P1) when performing this: dash, press up (crossing behind target), jC then right>up-left>right to execute. When you cross behind you do not correct and reverse the directions. This is the best way I could explain it.**
Ciel turns and airdashes toward the back of target with a sort of inverted momentum after crossup jC. The forward airdash in this case ends up replicating dash>jump>airbackdash in appearance :psyduck:. jA will strike high should the opponent try to crouch after crossup jC. Ways to set up are from 236A or 63214A. (This looks really crazy btw)
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We'll just pretend this isn't here, ok:
63214B>Combo List
Landing a B Command Throw against a cornered opponent will allow a combo opportunity for Ciel. The target doesn't necessary have to be in the immediate corner to land the followup but the player should consider the positioning carefully i.e. Ciel should end up in the corner while the target wall bounces out of the corner.
63214B>JABC>delay J22B>jc>JABC>J22B>Throw
O
Hisui
WLen
MH
S.Aki
VAki
Warc
Roa
Sion
** JABC>delay J22B>jc>JAABC>J22B>Throw (extra JA) can be added on to those listed below
Shiki
Koha
Ryougi
Arc
VSion
Ries
Ciel
Miyako
Kouma
Nanaya
Aoko
vs Len
JAAC>delay J22B>jc>JABC>J22B>Throw
vs Nero/Warachia
Outside of an extremely difficult to land airthrow after B Command Throw (63214B>J4E) it seems impossible to land JA after the wall bound.
vs Neko Arc/NAC
63214B>236A (then flicker loop) or 5C or 4C or 3C or ???
Im convinced that height determines how easy or difficult it will be to combo follow up after 63214B. Because nekos are extremely short, Ciel will throw them much lower into the corner and as a result will create a longer untechable time frame after the wall bound (which potentially leads to crazy combo followups). Where you have Nero & Wara, the tallest characters, being thrown noticeably higher into the corner making even a simple airthrow followup a chore.
**Neko Arc/NAC Bonus!!
(Midscreen/Fullscreen) 63214B>623C>Aerial
That's right, you can throw a cat full screen and follow up with ex Blade Syncher before or just after the wall bound :prinny:.
63214B>Aerial VS Air Throw
63214B>Airthrow
You have the option to sacrifice damage for better positioning and easier followup after the wall bound. Sets up meaty 63214B again on landing or you can mixup by normal dashing in with a meaty poke if you sense a wake up jump.
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Instant activation
2[2]E~ABC (heat)
Performs IH instantly. Nor prior attacks whiff or animate. Good way to regen risk free (as opposed to BH activate and other special move IH cancels).
I have some other (good) F-cl shenanigans tucked away in my book but until more ppl show interest, I think I'll just keep it to myself for now. (I may decide to put up a vid for IH>JC though cus it's so retarded).
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei4VDvg-jCg
Every vid I've ever made has been poor. :emo:
Enjoy.
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Zar is so gdlk, too bad this is F ciel, but lots of good information!
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New BnB: Do this or else...
2A > 2A *> 2C > 4C > 236A > 5A > 5B > 236A > 5B > 236B > IAD > JC > Land > JAC > jc > JBC > 22B > throw
*2A > 2A > 5B can be used as a starter vs some characters for extra damage. I haven't tested vs every char just yet but adding in the 5B will push too far out against some characters to follow up with the first juggle attempt (5A > 5B > 236A)
* Timing is very simple, no trickiness involved, one action after the other
Advanced BnB: Do this if you think you're NICE
2A > 2A *> 2C > 4C > 236A > 5A > 5B > 236A > 5B > 236B > IAD > JC *> Land > 3C > 22B > jc > JABC > 22B > throw
*2A > 2A > 5B can be used as a starter vs some characters for extra damage. I haven't tested vs every char just yet but adding in the 5B will push too far out against some characters to follow up with the first juggle attempt (5A > 5B > 236A)
*Landing the JC after the 236B>IAD here is crucial for finishing the rest of this combo. JC hits deep then 3C combos immediately upon landing.Cancel 3C into air 22B then jump cancel from there into JA and complete the combo. This variant is still a bit tricky for me. Good luck.
*Probably the highest damage meterless BnB I've come across netting about 5.4k. This is only about a few hundred more damage points than some other variants but has excellent meter build.
(someone donate a dvr plz)
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u gdlk
learning this char atm
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http://transrequests.pbworks.com/F-Ciel+Flicker+Loops
Haha, your combos are hard.
Also,
(someone donate a dvr plz)
BUY AN EASY CAP, ITS $10s
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BUY AN EASY CAP, ITS $10s
WHAT?! bullsht...SHOW MEEEEE.
lol
Thanks for translating that info. Your weaboo prowess is too anime for us all. All 3 american F-ciel players/viewers of this page will make use of gdlk info you have provided.
...it's a shame that none of us will be able to actually execute said info. =p
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I'm too pro for weeaboo
And yes:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Easy-CAP-USB-2-0-Video-TV-To-DVD-Capture-Adapter_W0QQitemZ180409158563QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a01394ba3
A X < 10 capture card
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http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm9235477
most hype I've been for a jp F-cl since the Tsa set from last summer. Keep at it Japan, you're getting there.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w4yTHEQ0TA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCqF1OOAs0w
1/5 somerheat success rate lol. This dude is still solid though. More comments on his play style when/if I get free time. Wish more players in US ran her so it wouldn't be just me posting in this thread... =(
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Dear Best F-CL on WC,
Ries/Kouma only post-Acommand throw mixup:
624A can be a bit hard to land in strings but NOT IN COMBOS! Landing A.ct (A Command Throw) vs kouma or ries will invite either char into a world of hurt. Because these two generally rise the slowest of the mb cast, A.ct allows ciel to set up the most brain-dead of safe jumps on oki due to the timing from when they stand to when ciel is about to land from a jump in.
How to set it up: Land a hit (or A.ct outside of combo).
E.G.
VS KOUMA
...>2c>4c>236a>5a>5b>236a>5b>236a>63214a>hold 9>jc
VS RIES ***ries's downed time is extremely short for whatever reason so the combo hits MUST be reduced to properly otg with A.ct. Generally, you'll want to do one less flicker rep if you decide to go for the A.ct otg.***
...>2c>4c>236a>5AA (or 5AB but this sometimes misses on ries)>236a>63214A>hold 9>jc
IMPORTANT. Be sure to HOLD 9 (foward jump) as ciel is throwing kouma/ries to the opposite side so that you can jump on the FIRST POSSIBLE FRAME. This will allow for you to land a meaty jC (as well as OTHER mixups) upon landing such as:
Standard option
A.ct>j[9]c>bnb
If youre confident that your opponent consistently will fuck up reversals, feel free to blow them up again with a bnb leading back to A.ct...You'll likely be landing the below more often though.
Landing low option
A.ct>j[9]>land>1a or 5b
***1a is an OS that will beat wake up EX reversal attempts as the flash will occur just as you land, negating the 2a input (assuming your opponent reversal timing was perfect/proper).***
Landing throw option
A.ct>j[9]>land>throw
obvious. lose significant advantage and oki using this. However, vs ries, ciel gains a seeklet option after normal throw (I'll explain this in another post possibly).
Anti Bstep
Vs Kouma
A.ct>j[9]c>2b>236b> (IAD>jC>land>jbc>jbc>22b>airthrow)
Vs Ries
A.ct>j[9]c>2c>236b> (IAD>jC>land>jbc>jbc>22b>airthrow)
OR (IAD>jC>land>jbc>delay 22b>hold 9 jabc>22b>airthrow [DOUBLE SOMER COMBO])
How this works: This OS will tag bstep attempts should the opponent try and evade the jC. Kouma (2b)/Ries (2c) will land into the respected attack on bstep recovery. The best part is, if you guessed wrong and they guard the sequence (2b/2c>236b), you're still at +1. If they are hit due to mistimed reversal, ciel can still follow with the iad combo.
Gay-ass Fuzzy Setup
A.ct>j[9]c>land>while ascending j8b>j214c>dodge opponent's irl fistycuffs
Instant j8b (jumping NEUTRAL) is F-cl's fuzzy from a guarded jC. It only works on a handful of chars but is particularly strong vs these two. the proper bnb followup after landing the j214c (shadow snipe) is: j214c>delay 4[ b ]> (2c>4c>236a>... OR 5c>236a>...). Delaying the 4[ b ] for it to hit just as the opponent is about to recover will allow you to get a higher bounce for juggles. 5c>236a>... prorates less but is harder to time for the right height so that 236a doesnt whiff.
**Notes**
This safe jump meaty blows up shield counter attempts and allows you to land and safely guard it. Non-ex reversals let you land and guard safe as well. EX-reversals lose to land>2a. Vs Kouma 22c reversal, using any variation you can throw him after the super flash (you have to see this a bunch of times to learn how to execute it on reaction). Vs activations you can be a douche and learn the j9c~5[d]>5b>... OS (i'm still practicing this).
Sinciely,
ZTB
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Anti-Activation OS using 5[C]
Thought of another one yesterday. So simple, surprised it didn't occur to me sooner :slowpoke:. It works similar to the Universal anti-activation string:
Jump attack [preferably lvl3 attack]~[D]>land>5B [or crouch attack if you're nice]
e.g. F-ciel - JC~[D]>land>5B
This revision uses 5[C] (silly clash normal) instead and will avoid "counter-measures" (backstep/dodge) which could occur in the above scenario.
Anti-activate w/ 5[C]:
JC>land>5[C]~5B
5[C] must be pressed and held just as ciel lands but before full landing recovery (so pretty much time during hitstop of JC). Strum 5[C] to 5B. In the instance activation does not occur then 5B will execute but if the opponent chose to activate, JC will whiff followed by an immediate landing 5[C] which will ultimately clash with said activation.
Anti-Activation OS #2
Another string exclusive to F-ciel:
2A~5B~5[C]
That's right, strum all three. Not as fast as you may think though but faster than inputting a chain combo. 2A~5B will chain on hit/guard and if strummed correctly, 5[c] will be dropped from the sequence. Should activation occur, 2A will whiff due to activation invulnerability frames, 5B instead will be dropped and 5[C] is executed to force clash with activation.
Training Mode
The best ways to practice these OS's is by setting the dummy to:
Enemy status: Stand
" " defence: Dodge
" " def. type: Random
Dodge will emulate the invuln of the activation. 2A will whiff then 5[C] is executed or for OS#1 JC will whiff and 5[C] is executed.
Random setting will have the dummy dodge at random points. This will allow you to test the sequence and most importantly practice confirming in the instance 2A hits/is guarded for OS#2 or if JC hits/is guarded for OS#1
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Anyone can tell me a good oki after AAD? What are the best (let's say 3) options?
Tnx in advance.
Relunx
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$0.02
Playlist (http://www.youtube.com/user/darkdrizzle?feature=mhsn#g/c/8A57219EF4790611)
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http://transrequests.pbworks.com/F-Ciel+Flicker+Loops
Haha, your combos are hard.
Good Arc, this is for real. Thank you glorious asian masters.
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Unfortunately there's no AAD oki setups in those tutorials, but they are great vids. I learned a lot of things from them.
Question about j214c:
As all know the j214c's shadows are must be blocked low, BUT sometimes even if my opponent block it, he still get hit by it. Dunno why or this is some kind of glitch. Maybe bcoz the sword and the black wave hits at the same time and that's why.
Any ideas? Tnx in advance.
Relunx
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Question about j214c:
As all know the j214c's shadows are must be blocked low, BUT sometimes even if my opponent block it, he still get hit by it. Dunno why or this is some kind of glitch. Maybe bcoz the sword and the black wave hits at the same time and that's why.
Ok, first off, the SHADOWS DO NOT HIT LOW. Only the physical knife itself hits low and must be guarded in that manner. The shadows/black waves HIT MID (not overhead or some shit) and can be guarded at any level. As for getting hit in between the two wave/shadow hits, there is a gap in-between these two hits. HOWEVER, the defender is unable to reversal in-between this gap but can be hit by the second wave if attempting to do anything other than defend. There are attacks from MBAC like this that may/may not still exist in AA. Examples are len's 623A: the gap just before the kick attack at the end will allow the defender to move but not shield/reversal/backstep. Theres also (MBAC) Aoko's staggered Aoko123: stagger the 3rd hit and the same principle applies (can get hit but can't reversal). No idea why this phenomenon occurs, just deal with it 8-).
On another note, it's damn near impossible to clash-bunker the 2nd wave hit in AA (I tried so hard! XD). Current Code has added a 3rd shadow hit in shadow snipe and my assumption is so that it will provide a means to clash-bunker the attack effectively (there's a CC vid somewhere but I can't find it =/).
Some stuff I came up w/ the last few mths but was too lazy to write up:
New Fuzzy vs Wara/Nero:
BE4B>IH>J9B>J214C
These two have tall enough hitboxes for the j9b to hit overhead should they chose to duck after guarding be4b. The option to mix in 5b (low) after the IH is also applicable for the mindfuck (e.g. be4b>IH>5b>2b>236b>iad jc etc.).
OS Pick-up String (credits to Rayza & Co. for inspiring this idea)
5B~A>5C
E.g. 2A>2C>4C>236A>5A>5B>236A>5B>5C>jBC>jBC>blahblah
Above is an example of one of F-Ciels standard bnbs and in BOLD is a common point players tend to drop the final "pick-up" or juggle just before executing the aerial portion to end the combo. Using 5B~A (strum)>5C at this point will essentially give you two inputs rather than one and thus another chance to pick up the slack for human error. In the case you hit 5B too soon for it to execute (due to prior 236A recovery), 5A will execute in its place on the window where the next attack will be accepted. As you should know, both 5B>5C and 5A>5C will combo and give you that chance to finish up the combo. While 5A scales the damage a bit more, it's better than losing damage because you mistimed a single input 5B pick-up. One thing that should especially be considered is the range at which you attempt the OS. Obviously if you're too far out for a 5A to connect you have no other option but to try and connect a tip-hit 5B to continue.
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...J7B
...too good
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Approved anti air by 4 out of 5 zaelars.
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It's been sad times for F-ciel lately and I've pretty much come to the point of just accepting the reality that Japan has no real interest in seeking out the potential of the character nor will we see any/many players from their region with enough "GUTS!" to step forward and display the viability of Ciel's Full Moon rendition. The few that have stepped forward have been (surprisingly) poor representations of F-ciel's worth, seemingly clueless as to where to even begin with the character (no/questionable spacing, horrid confirms, lacking neutral game, etc.). As for the amazing Jp F-Ciel players, which are very few and far between, footage of their gameplay is rarely seen. The player who goes by the name of "Iiesu" has probably been the most outstanding F-Ciel user I've seen since the days of Tsa but has literally one piece of footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRpOu3Nmjo) to pick from. As for the "Godfather of F-Ciel" himself, Tsa's most recent piece of gameplay footage (CC) shows him using. . .C-Ciel (:sadface:).
While I'm not too sure on the absolute best method of improvement and excellence in individual gameplay, I feel that having access to gameplay footage of a variety of players is one of the important factors in the steps to self-progression. Considering the plights of US and international communities (excluding Japan obviously), matchup experience does not come easy. Many communities are scattered about across many regions and within the communities themselves, the numbers are usually lacking which inevitably contributes to a lack in character variety. It's not unheard of for players to walk into a tournament with zero knowledge of the ins-and-outs of a specific character or being without plan on how to approach this "new" matchup. Of course if you play some of the more "popular" characters, then it's possible to acquire some insight on more commonly played matchups. However, should you be an F-ciel user (or worse, an H-Wlen user! lol), assembling the pieces of the puzzle, so to say, can take a bit longer.
That being said, as a means to alleviate some of the frustration to figuring out what may be unfamiliar matchups to others, I'm proposing to post up match vids of my own gameplay - dissecting, analyzing and explaining key points in the matches, as I would if viewing a video that was not my own in the most unbiased fashion, and encourage other users to do so as well. By use of this "second-hand experience" players will be given a chance to not only examine other's playstyles but more importantly they will be able devise their own methods and theories on a specific matchup and thus prepare themselves mentally should they experience the bout in a future event.
If any of the (few) F-Ciel users out there express interest in the idea, wherever you may be, please try start recording matches of whatever you can get your hands on (EZCAP[$10] + Windows Movie Maker) and post up with a breakdown of your own gameplay (flaws, mistakes, high points, utilizing advantage, etc.) so that others may be able to absorb the knowledge and provide constructive criticism. I consider myself to be my own wost critic so expect the synopsis to be a complete "blowup" of my gameplay and to anyone else who decides to post their vids they should expect to be blown up on critical shit as well (the best way to patch the holes imo). Regardless of anyone posting or not, I'll attempt to regularly post vids myself in hopes of generating more interest in the character and to provide a better understanding of F-ciel match ups.
Next post is for the synopsis. . . :teach:
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Overall visual/audio quality is bad (sorry, the best I could do) but is still watchable. Please excuse first 30secs of vid though. Sound is horribly off sych around there and visual is bleh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UUMUDeASdE
Match 1
00:26
SC>2C>delay 4C>236A
I've been missing this far too much on Ries specifically. Considering on using a completely different post-SC starter on just her (maybe 5C>236A?) or omitting the 236A to just jBC aerial starter.
00:29
Oops. 214B misinput lol.
00:34
236A(guard)>623A
Low flicker is -1F, 623A is 5F. attempting to use slower poke outs (xaq mashes 2B/5b a lot here) in this situation will score you easy CHs from 623A. Be sure to confirm to 236C (midscreen) or 623C (near corner) for some extra dmg (I'm still trying to get out of the habit of using 236C near corner though grrr)
00:45
Was backed into the corner a bit too long here. Ries was outside of 236B range so I felt it was safe to dash 2B>236A to get into a more favorable position. It pays off and I scored KD.**2B>236B>IAD jC will be more practical in CC as it hits more characters in crouch state and stand/crouch confirmation will no longer have to be considered**
00:55
4b>236b>safe jump setup
This IS doable on ries but requires damn-near-perfection vs H-ries as she has 4F reversal (F-ries is 7F :laffo:). Considering using alternatives to safe jump vs H-ries.
00:59
H-ries full screen dash
Hesitated far too long here. Let ries cover too much ground. 236B or 2B or j7 (airguard shield rush attempt) should have been used here a bit sooner (you see me attack late) to thwart the blind rush.
1:37
Otg FPFP
I go into max at this point and figure pushing ries closer to the corner w/ some extra dmg AND the option to punish a potential tech attempt (which I decide to not go for here) was a good idea. Another option would have been to go for somerheat after the lo flicker down but I choose to hold onto the 100% after exiting max mode instead (may be of use later in the rd)
1:46
BE5C vs 236[A]
Was reading for 5b/236A here but held shield rush hits much later in the animation allowing ries to get around preemptive BE5C
2:36-2:43
j214C x3
This was a really tough decision for me at this point. Now vs Hmoon, if they dont have the 100% to bunker and Ciel is sitting on a fresh MAX MODE then the guard break is pretty much free at this point...assuming the opponent chooses to guard everything. After the first j214c, attempting somerheat may have been better here and if guarded, I would have still been able to press the advantage and continue with another j214c sequence (guess I wasn't confident at that point). @2:41 you'll see me slip in a 2C>22a there rather than the standard 5c>22a>j214c. This is because some players will stand (attempting to jump out? :-\) and take the low hit to avoid being guard broken (take damage early and force you to clutch out a hit confirm while their guard bar regens). The 2C was for this purpose and had xaq been hit by it, I would have been able to confirm 4C from it to continue a combo and get my damage in regardless. @2:43 you can see ries is hit by the second wave (again, possibly intentionally) and causes my followup to miss. I'll probably mash dashing 5A's the next time this situation comes up. **In CC, a third wave hit was added possibly to avoid scenarios such as this but at the same time it seemingly makes bunker canceling stronger against j214c followup strings**
3:13
post-236A reversal
Here xaq choose a much better answer after guarded 236A. Of course this is high risk/low reward on his behalf and can be evaded unintentionally on the offender's part.
Match 2
3:49
Otg FPFP
...Not really sure why I go for this here lol. Should have maybe gone for 4B>236 down and sat on the meter a bit longer. @3:52 the 5C was a failed, late air backdash jC =(
3:58
ex sycher post-air CH
I find ex scycher punisher post-air CHs to be extremely effective when reading for ground techs after and sort of works like how C-ciel 7th is used in the same situation . Of course if you're in close enough range to pickup the combo it's best to get in the damage. But as shown here, I'm no where near the target and decide to fish for it (It hits for otg dmg if they choose not to tech as well). It hits a bit late here because I botched the timing from ciel's huge dash startup causing me to miss the meaty hit, which would have lead to an aerial combo. In this situation it's also good to 6236C in the event they choose to tech forward to what seems to be a favorable spot. Should the opponent end up behind you, 6236C is converted to 214C and you score damage anyhow (236C otg followup can add even more damage in this case!)
4:22
BE5C
...get it this time
4:28
236B
rushing in after the 623A may have resulted in a few options such as xaq being able to escape with a jump out or, as you see here, me potentially running into a poke. I choose to back out to near tip-hit range of hi flicker (but a bit too far here lol) in hopes to clip a limb or jump out.
4:39
AD punisherrrrr
Oops. Likely a fuckup on xaq's part. However, I fail to capitalize lol. 214A to the back for possible CH would have probably been better (how often does this situation come up though lol). I'll keep it in mind should it ever happen again.
5:02
MAX MODE
Hmmm not really sure if this was the best decision. I hold a decent amount of regenerative health and xaq is one combo away from death. Perhaps I could have attempted someheat here to possibly close the round and/or at least regen that 2K or so of life and hold on to a stronger lead. Really torn on what would have been the best answer here.
5:19
BE3C
From time to time I throw these out at relatively safe distances in hopes to catch a hasty rush or poor aerial spacing. Fortunately for xaq, he barely escapes the hit with a double jump. As for me, I get to freely move after the whiff and rethink my landing positioning.
5:23
Otg FPFP
Close the rd out. Forget trying for a mixup
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Cn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UUMUDeASdE
Match 3
5:54
ex syncher followup
Bleh, going for sjA was a bad idea. Not worth going for the measly damage. jA*3>jBC is still fair enough damage. F-ciel does have double somer variants off of the syncher launch worth practicing.
6:10
BE5C
Reading Rainbow. Wasn't expecting CH, went for sad combo instead.
6:15
reversal
Who wouldn't reversal of some sorts in this situation (Hmoon entering MAX MODE on wakeup)? Should have done something a bit more passive-aggressive like dash in a bit after air throw and meaty 214a or 236B
6:18
double jump CH
Likely a failed air backdash (j4a+b) in attempts to reposition away from air-to-air threat. Rushing head in on Ries (look out jB) is not a good idea, especially after burning two jumps.
6:24
dash 5a>4c
ries's lower than average jump arc makes it harder for her to get around anticipatory AA fishing like dash 4C, stationary 4C, or dash 5a>4c. I normally use around the end of ciel's dash distance to measure the spacing for this.
6:38
4b>236b>sj
Another failed late air backdash. Wake up GG attempt would have been blown up most likely.
6:40
SC>5A
Keeping the rd finisher simple w/ 5a>4c. nothing fancy, just end it.
6:52
4C
BE5C misinput (it happens lol). 4C vs on reaction to incoming jumping attacks is probably the worst way to use this move now. The days of MBAC are over. Also, take 5.6k for your fuckup. ::)
6:59
wakeup 236a
ries's distance after airthrow is rather horrible to say the least. It gives the defender a lot of breathing room to attempt many escape options that I could imagine would be pretty annoying for the ries user to deal with. Options include: 623A>confirm, sj9, j7>sdj, 236a, or 623c
7:05
ries jC CH
The jC here likely beat out a j7B as I whore this move out a lot. Problem is, here I'm still recovering a bit from the previous BE5C and it doesn't allow me to get airborne in time to have the jB out for ries to run into. Xaq burns all of his aerial movement before hand and 22B would have definitely been the better option here (the hell, I did it every other time but here! lol)
7:06
CS throw
I'm sure this situation has come up with not just myself: In max mode, mashing abc, abc, abc but the burst never happens...so you keep mashing like "wtf, where's my burst!". That's what happens here. Mashed abc furiously once the CH pops up but still no CS occurs and by the time it does come out, I get thrown lol. There are situations where I'll mash abc then just give up after a certain point and just settle for getting comboed rather than get baited.
7:24
BE5C
same situation but I get BE5C instead of unintentional 4C this time. Released a bit to late to nail landing recovery though.
7:53-7:57
lucky j214c hit>combo into cmd A
Ok, this is probably the worst decision made the entire set. Sitting on only 25% circuit and I choose to go for safe jump setup...for what?! There's absolutely no threat w/o the 100% stock to attempt the fuzzy guard setup. Also, ries was already set very close to the corner and I give up my positioning by throwing away from the corner. Lastly, I give up 2K damage and extra meter which would have complemented the corner positioning after the fact. My read for a wakeup throw attempt fails and I end up taking big damage shortly after.
8:13
random 236C
I don't see this move too often but I could have probably punished with something here as the cancel was done pretty late. Problem is, I have to go in the lab to find out what are the most damaging options. I have to learn to be prepared to late bunker this attack as well in the event that the sequence is executed airtight.
8:16
fall on 236[a]
I burn up two jumps here and fall into a shield rush I wasn't ready for. This was completely unexpected and results in me getting checkmated by limiting my movement options beforehand.
GGs
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Gawd. Horrible quality. :/
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Use your imagination. :|
Also, thanks for posting something remotely relevant to the content. :tup:
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Use your imagination. :|
Also, thanks for posting something remotely relevant to the content. :tup:
Come over this week for F-Ciel mirrors. I want to get blown up more matches. I'll probably bring over my capture card
P.S: Can't really comment on the matches since they aren't currently loading for me.
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Not really sure if using a different capdevice will necessarily improve stream quality. After all, we're using a (poor) laptop to do so. Unless you're bringing a laptop that could handle beastly streaming you should probably bring an external HD if you have. This way we can use WMM to record directly for far better quality. No sense in streaming for shit quality especially when you consider that no one is really watching the streams to begin with.
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i wish i got to play as much as i would like to. location fail kinda sucks, i havent gotten the chance to play another human since NEC :'(
i'll try and get some of my matches recorded on shakycam @ nci later this week.
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Zar, if you want we can try to get together so you can record some of my f-ciel so you have some more beginner level f-ciel footage for newer players to start with. You'll get plenty of examples of things not to do.
If you're willing I'd like to take this a little further. If I can get some equipment and you can get to my place one weekend I think we could put together something amazing, and hopefully inspire better tutorial videos all around.
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i'll try and get some of my matches recorded on shakycam @ nci later this week.
Looking forward to this. Let me know how it goes.
Zar, if you want we can try to get together so you can record some of my f-ciel so you have some more beginner level f-ciel footage for newer players to start with. You'll get plenty of examples of things not to do.
If you're willing I'd like to take this a little further. If I can get some equipment and you can get to my place one weekend I think we could put together something amazing, and hopefully inspire better tutorial videos all around.
this isn't a bad idea. No F-Ciel mirrors though - the game is no longer melty blood at that point lol. Fortunately, I have two other characters to help out w/ training if you're serious. Could try to throw some other players in the mix for extra variety.
As for recording equip, my luck w/ recording and streaming in general has been horrible lately (sorry, I only know how to do MB right), so considering you know how to operate such futuristic devices (aka sorcery!), guess you can give it a shot. I'm pretty much done with the tutorial deal as far as that goes but if we ever get CC I'm definitely running the tutorial series back with plenty of revised and new material!
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didn't get any recorded unfortunately due to the lack of camera (someone needed to use it to take pictures at a party that day, sadly), but there's still a question I want to ask.
What exactly SHOULD I be using in regards of defense vs. characters who are completely on top of me at all times, or to be specific, Vakiha? On offense, I'm fine, but neutral gets kinda scary if I can't keep her out with keys (this is worrying me especially considering her movement options) or score a knockdown, and once she's at point blank and on top if me, I'm not sure what do so, since I can't block forever and get mixed up at one point. I'm not sure if I should be trying to nail a reversal or a charge 4B or something here, or if there's something specific I should be trying to beat out or avoid. Or should I just be trying to get the hell out of there and create a gap again? I'm really kinda lost here, some footage of this match would help greatly if you have. :-[
On the plus side, I have been getting used to implementing charged 5B, spacing with B flicker, and scaring people into getting hit by command grab a lot more lately. It's just that for everywhere I get offense-wise and execution-wise, I'm still at a loss on defense aside from AAing predictable IADs, throw techs, and punishing gaps in blockstrings.
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What exactly SHOULD I be using in regards of defense vs. characters who are completely on top of me at all times, or to be specific, Vakiha? On offense, I'm fine, but neutral gets kinda scary if I can't keep her out with keys (this is worrying me especially considering her movement options) or score a knockdown, and once she's at point blank and on top if me, I'm not sure what do so, since I can't block forever and get mixed up at one point. I'm not sure if I should be trying to nail a reversal or a charge 4B or something here, or if there's something specific I should be trying to beat out or avoid. Or should I just be trying to get the hell out of there and create a gap again? I'm really kinda lost here, some footage of this match would help greatly if you have. :-[
Not sure if you mean "on top of you" as in literally above your head on or on the ground set at point blank range. In any case, I can provide some insight on how you can try to manage composure in both situations.
Above your head
I feel that F-ciel's greatest strength is her ability to hold her ground very well at mid range (just outside of Hi Flicker range or in as close as 2B range). Showing your opponent that blind rushing is not an option and ground-based footsie is limited will usually get the player to fall back on other means of approach i.e. by IAD's and jumping or retreat further to initiate zoning if that option is available for the character. The obvious answer to the former approach (via aerial assult) is to make use of F-Ciel's many anti-air choices, each holding it's own unique purpose decided by spacing, positioning, speed of approach and most importantly, the defender's (that being you) reflexes to a situation.
The most basic answers for a aerial approaches would be to:
(Held) Shield>SC OR 22A
Moderate to High Risk: Moderate Reward
While this is a handy universal mechanic, overuse is not recommended as it's relatively simple to bait out and can sometimes be punished inadvertently. Vakiha has the ability to air dash twice and can thus bait out your shield attempting using a rather common double airdash maneuver (usu. seen on oki, however). Shielding is probably strongest when used very sparingly and mixed in with F-Ciel's other AA options. **SHIELD>22A is useful against extremely deep jump-ins as SC has more startup (9F iirc) and while 22A will not score you solid damage, its startup (3F) makes up for it and will usually get you a CH launch and down (6236C followup can punish all ground techs if executed properly after opponent lands from CH 22A).
22B
Moderate to High Risk: Low to Moderate Reward
Another extremely simple AA answer and as with shielding, it won't get you much in return but is still useful when applied in moderation. Its weakness lies again in its likeliness of being baited. Counter-solutions can be as simple as double jumping back, causing the somer to whiff and be punished. Also, it can be rather difficult to B Somer on reaction to some of the linear IAD's (e.g. Ries, Shiki, Kouma) and can too result in a whiff if mistimed. In most cases, it's far easier to react with, say, 5[C] or [4B] or [4D] in a short period of time than it is to mash 2's. 22B is still good for nailing obvious jumps and pedictable post-airtech movements.
Most practical answers include:
BE5C or BE4C
Low to Moderate Risk: Moderate to High Reward
As you should already know, these are the most reliable answers to obvious aerial approaches and to some extent can be used as reactionary AA tools.
Its weakness comes mainly from improper positioning and on occasion the depth of your opponent's attack. Both are vulnerable to super-deep jump-ins (4B more so) but fortunately, human error will not allow for such consistency in this type of approach so it's safe to say that these options are for the most part very reliable. Positioning should be highly considered as its other weakness lies in its inability to clash hits that strike directly above (I'm talking about smack dead on the center of her head) or behind. Usually a simple adjustment such as walking back for a bit will set the approriate spacing to force the clash. If you're still feeling uncertain about spacing in this matter, you always have the option to fall back on the basic options again or use some more "unconventional" AA's.
Alternative answers:
Dash under>normal 5C(10F) OR 2B(8F)>236A (*Stole this from some of the very early verA F-Ciel matches lol)
Low to Moderate Risk: Moderate Reward
Now one may ponder: Why in the hell would someone want to dash head in on a jumping attack? Well, considering that Ciel has one of the lowest profiles/states in the game while performing a dash, slipping under and behind an attacker can be quite simple and is certainly viable . A simple 6A+B[4] input will get you under most IAD's (just don't do this against ries IAD cus the bitch goes nowhere lol) and can sneak you, at the last second, under and behind basic air approaches. If executed properly, the 5C can score you a CH from behind or tag landing recovery (If they chose to attack from a normal jump). This technique becomes useful in the event that you are positioned in a spot where 5C or 4B can be hit from behind. It can also be a means to trade places if you're backed into the corner.
J7B>dj.7>airdash (6A+B)
Low Risk: Moderate to High Reward
For whatever reason...F-Ciel's jB is a valid air-to-air answer. This has given me excellent results, yielding either a CH hit (into airdash>jC followup) or at the worst, a trade (which is sometimes in my favor by allowing me to land first). The best spots to go for this is in the general area where you would want to go for a clean hit 22B AA. When you're watching your opponent's approach from the air and get the urge to B Somer but they have yet to exhaust all air movement (potential bait), j7B can take it's place for far less risk. To some extent, j7B can be used as an anticipatory defensive attack vs high-speed, linear IAD's (e.g. Vermilion =D). The risk is relatively low as you are jumping away from the opponent while air defending AND you move to a more favorable position upon landing. To make matters worse for the offender, j7B>dj7>6A+B(airdash)~[4]>(confirm CH)>jC is an OS against air-to-air shielding attempts (lol).
BE3C>dj9>airbackdash(4A+B)
Low to Moderate Risk: Moderate to High Reward
Do not sleep on this. As retarded as it may sound, BE3C can be effective for striking down overaggressive players but spacing should be HIGHLY considered. First off, the start up on this is immense so it's best to fish for it when well outside of your opponent's attack range (roughly 3/4 screen away from opponent's corner or further). Second, the intention of executing from so far away is to strike down an anticipated aerial approach while being able to score solid damage in the event of a counter hit. Last, should the BE3C whiff all together, F-ciel is able to double jump and retreat (or advance!) to a favorable landing position. When BE3C does strike as a CH, it will launch extra high and provide ample time to freestlye a juggle combo. SDJ can also be used on whiff to scout the opponent from above and strike with j214A/B at safer distances.
Grounded At Point-Blank
If you managed to lose the upperhand and can't keep the opponent outside of your "comfort zone" you can try some of these tools to help you turn things around so that you can establish offense again:
Conventional Reversal options:
5B (5F)
A fast normal, hits low, and has more range that 5A or 2A. If an opponents strings run on too long and they push themselves out too far, you can slip one of these out for them to run into. 5B>236A or 5B>2B>236A are easily confirmable on hit but can also give you more breathing room if you choose to commit to the sequence when it has been guarded. The downside to this is that: 1) You're standing, can't protect legs while poking out, 2) are neutral(5) can't defend while attacking. With that being said, it's very important to judge distance when tossing one of these out (hit with tip) but most importantly you need a good understanding of how the character's guardstrings work as well as a good read on when the attack gaps will show on said guardstrings. 5B is also capable of stuffing predictable redash 5A/2A garbage and the threat of being lvl armored can make it a pain to deal with for the offender.
236A (7F)
TSA got away with this often in his matches (when he used to play F-Ciel! T_T) and considering it's range and speed it's easy to see why. Application is a bit tricky, however. Low Flicker reversal is best when used after an opponent has pushed themselves well out of range of a whiffed 5B (which is just about the tip-hit of Low Flicker range). Often times this will tag an attempt to dash back in to close space or snatch jump startup against an IAD attempt after a guardstring has ended abruptly.
Alternative options:
Jumping & Ex Guarding
Pretty universal. Jumping is probably a bit more safe than trying to press buttons when it's not your turn. This of course doesn't guarantee escape as you are vulnerable to lows and some characters have easy confirms from dash attacks that may strike you in the air. As for ex guarding, more pushback is induced in addition to the defender reducing disadvantage by a bit (+2) and can create enough space to couple in a jump out attempt. Not as free as it is to type out this option though.
4A>4C
When reading opponent's IAD attempt to close the gap or reset pressure at closer proximities, 4A>4C can either clip jump startup (remain grounded) or tag the opponent while the are airborne. Should 4A>4C hit grounded, end with 236A to force a down, otherwise confirm aerial hit and finish the combo. Rember that there is the risk of being lvl armored attempting this defensive strat.
Exguarding & 623A(5F)
Again, Exguarding will produce more pushback and reduce guard disadvantage by 2F. The successful combination of the two will allow you to get off a 623A reversal if distance is well judged. 623A is 5F startup and is confirmable to 236C OR 623C (The confirm is moderately difficult and maytake a bit of practice though). It's also assumed that you will be cornered when attempting the A syncher reversal so 236C confirm will yield favorable positioning (since followup damage on 623C will be impossible at this point).
"Gimmicky" Reversals:
22A>j214C
Just as it says, this shit is kinda gimmicky (you've been warned). While 22A has no invulnerability its startup(3F) is ridiculously fast and can slice through sloppy strings when cornered. Shadow Snipe after will of course make the reversal safe should it be guarded.
623C
If you've been given far too much breathing room than you deserve (just outside of 2B range), have the meter to spare, why not? Well, it's not invulnerable for one but it can get you out of the corner (while attacking) if the opponent is unable to close the gap in time.
I feel that ALL of the grounded reversal options are of high risk and don't yield much reward. However, (calculated) risks can sometimes pay off and will allow you to gain the upperhand for lucking out. In the long run I feel that guarding (with occasional EX-guard attempts) is the best to fall back on, while watching for mistakes in excution (not uncommon) and looking for patterns in attack strings. The above options become more viable when you display (or feign) extreme patience and develop good reads. Hope this post wasn't tl;dr material for you lol.
Vs VAkiha (Assuming it's Half Moon here)
@Neutral
If Vakiha is trying to estabilish a runaway game, then they're asking for trouble. 214B's shoot her out of the air when trying for high positioned j22s. It's best to go for these at what I reffer to as Range 4. Range 4 is approx. a character space to a full backstep's range (or further) starting at the point where 236B (High Flicker) would just whiff a grounded opponent (There's another range where 214B is useful but will have to explain in another post). At this point it will be hard for Vaki to get around the fan of knives w/o having to use double jumps, sdj's and airdashes. You want her to either exhaust more air movement to approach/evade or to stay grounded and try to move in with dashes. Should the player choose the latter, then you can go to work with the stronger ground game (2B's, 236B/A's, BE5C, 214A, 623A). Smart movement, however, can get players around the fan but this usually requires anticipation. If they start getting antsy about knife fan and going to the air early w/o you actually having to throw knives, then you already have the upperhand. Their options then are to either continue an aerial pursuit (which you'll be ready to counter with multiple and RANDOM AA options) or use double jumps/airdashes to back off (which you in turn pursue to place them nearer to corner).
Should Vaki still be grounded after a 214B read has been launched, keep watch for the player to approach by ground to punish the recovery. It may not seem like a good idea but 214B>214C is actually a good option in this situation and can cover your tracks in the event of a bad read. Also 214C can be ex canceled to 623C if opponent has already positioned above your head allowing you to escape to a favorable spot.
For a surprise attack, Sj.922B can be effective vs the overzealous j22x Vakiha user. Confirm into throw on hit or double jump out and reposition your landing to a favorable spot if whiffed.
Unfortunately, this is the best info I could provide with the little experience I've had with this match up. Hope it was at least insightful. Below are some old TSA matches against a F-VAkiha user. When I say old, I mean '09 - hell, TSA hardly even plays this way anymore and has refined his style many times over since. Nontheless, this footage is what I used to get started and I sometimes reffer back to them to examine the match up and compare movement/former styles. Hope you find it useful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNQz5rOEI7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSfyn39dPa0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL6si7Z6dUA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qwYl7tGyL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2o1oJ5lurE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8s69DcXLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtdCvM_LcdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJnPKAJccAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeUjZNe10c
EDIT:
I'm very aware that F-VAkiha =/= H-Vakiha in many respects but uhhh finding footage of that match up specifically (HVaki v FCL), let alone F-Ciel, is quite the bitch. :emo:
good luck!
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So can anyone answer me why JP does not play this character?
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because a shitty american player figured her out before they could. :blah:
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because a shitty american player figured her out before they could. :blah:
^ They took shots at y'all?