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Author Topic: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread  (Read 34717 times)

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Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2011, 02:49:02 PM »
It's been sad times for F-ciel lately and I've pretty much come to the point of just accepting the reality that Japan has no real interest in seeking out the potential of the character nor will we see any/many players from their region with enough "GUTS!" to step forward and display the viability of Ciel's Full Moon rendition. The few that have stepped forward have been (surprisingly) poor representations of F-ciel's worth, seemingly clueless as to where to even begin with the character (no/questionable spacing, horrid confirms, lacking neutral game, etc.). As for the amazing Jp F-Ciel players, which are very few and far between, footage of their gameplay is rarely seen. The player who goes by the name of "Iiesu" has probably been the most outstanding F-Ciel user I've seen since the days of Tsa but has literally one piece of footage to pick from. As for the "Godfather of F-Ciel" himself, Tsa's most recent piece of gameplay footage (CC) shows him using. . .C-Ciel (:sadface:).

While I'm not too sure on the absolute best method of improvement and excellence in individual gameplay, I feel that having access to gameplay footage of a variety of players is one of the important factors in the steps to self-progression. Considering the plights of US and international communities (excluding Japan obviously), matchup experience does not come easy. Many communities are scattered about across many regions and within the communities themselves, the numbers are usually lacking which inevitably contributes to a lack in character variety. It's not unheard of for players to walk into a tournament with zero knowledge of the ins-and-outs of a specific character or being without plan on how to approach this "new" matchup. Of course if you play some of the more "popular" characters, then it's possible to acquire some insight on more commonly played matchups. However, should you be an F-ciel user (or worse, an H-Wlen user! lol), assembling the pieces of the puzzle, so to say, can take a bit longer.

That being said, as a means to alleviate some of the frustration to figuring out what may be unfamiliar matchups to others, I'm proposing to post up match vids of my own gameplay - dissecting, analyzing and explaining key points in the matches, as I would if viewing a video that was not my own in the most unbiased fashion, and encourage other users to do so as well. By use of this "second-hand experience" players will be given a chance to not only examine other's playstyles but more importantly they will be able devise their own methods and theories on a specific matchup and thus prepare themselves mentally should they experience the bout in a future event.

If any of the (few) F-Ciel users out there express interest in the idea, wherever you may be, please try start recording matches of whatever you can get your hands on (EZCAP[$10] + Windows Movie Maker) and post up with a breakdown of your own gameplay (flaws, mistakes, high points, utilizing advantage, etc.) so that others may be able to absorb the knowledge and provide constructive criticism. I consider myself to be my own wost critic so expect the synopsis to be a complete "blowup" of my gameplay and to anyone else who decides to post their vids they should expect to be blown up on critical shit as well (the best way to patch the holes imo). Regardless of anyone posting or not, I'll attempt to regularly post vids myself in hopes of generating more interest in the character and to provide a better understanding of F-ciel match ups.

Next post is for the synopsis. . . :teach:
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 02:55:25 PM by This Forum Is Utter Garbage »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2011, 04:24:59 PM »
Overall visual/audio quality is bad (sorry, the best I could do) but is still watchable. Please excuse first 30secs of vid though. Sound is horribly off sych around there and visual is bleh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UUMUDeASdE

Match 1
00:26
SC>2C>delay 4C>236A
I've been missing this far too much on Ries specifically. Considering on using a completely different post-SC starter on just her (maybe 5C>236A?) or omitting the 236A to just jBC aerial starter.

00:29
Oops. 214B misinput lol.

00:34
236A(guard)>623A
Low flicker is -1F, 623A is 5F. attempting to use slower poke outs (xaq mashes 2B/5b a lot here) in this situation will score you easy CHs from 623A. Be sure to confirm to 236C (midscreen) or 623C (near corner) for some extra dmg (I'm still trying to get out of the habit of using 236C near corner though grrr)

00:45
Was backed into the corner a bit too long here. Ries was outside of 236B range so I felt it was safe to dash 2B>236A to get into a more favorable position. It pays off and I scored KD.**2B>236B>IAD jC will be more practical in CC as it hits more characters in crouch state and stand/crouch confirmation will no longer have to be considered**

00:55
4b>236b>safe jump setup
This IS doable on ries but requires damn-near-perfection vs H-ries as she has 4F reversal (F-ries is 7F  :laffo:). Considering using alternatives to safe jump vs H-ries.

00:59
H-ries full screen dash
Hesitated far too long here. Let ries cover too much ground. 236B or 2B or j7 (airguard shield rush attempt) should have been used here a bit sooner (you see me attack late) to thwart the blind rush.

1:37
Otg FPFP
I go into max at this point and figure pushing ries closer to the corner w/ some extra dmg AND the option to punish a potential tech attempt (which I decide to not go for here) was a good idea. Another option would have been to go for somerheat after the lo flicker down but I choose to hold onto the 100% after exiting max mode instead (may be of use later in the rd)

1:46
BE5C vs 236[A]
Was reading for 5b/236A here but held shield rush hits much later in the animation allowing ries to get around preemptive BE5C

2:36-2:43
j214C x3
This was a really tough decision for me at this point. Now vs Hmoon, if they dont have the 100% to bunker and Ciel is sitting on a fresh MAX MODE then the guard break is pretty much free at this point...assuming the opponent chooses to guard everything. After the first j214c, attempting somerheat may have been better here and if guarded, I would have still been able to press the advantage and continue with another j214c sequence (guess I wasn't confident at that point). @2:41 you'll see me slip in a 2C>22a there rather than the standard 5c>22a>j214c. This is because some players will stand (attempting to jump out?  :-\) and take the low hit to avoid being guard broken (take damage early and force you to clutch out a hit confirm while their guard bar regens). The 2C was for this purpose and had xaq been hit by it, I would have been able to confirm 4C from it to continue a combo and get my damage in regardless. @2:43 you can see ries is hit by the second wave (again, possibly intentionally) and causes my followup to miss. I'll probably mash dashing 5A's the next time this situation comes up. **In CC, a third wave hit was added possibly to avoid scenarios such as this but at the same time it seemingly makes bunker canceling stronger against j214c followup strings**

3:13
post-236A reversal
Here xaq choose a much better answer after guarded 236A. Of course this is high risk/low reward on his behalf and can be evaded unintentionally on the offender's part.


Match 2
3:49
Otg FPFP
...Not really sure why I go for this here lol. Should have maybe gone for 4B>236 down and sat on the meter a bit longer. @3:52 the 5C was a failed, late air backdash jC =(

3:58
ex sycher post-air CH
I find ex scycher punisher post-air CHs to be extremely effective when reading for ground techs after and sort of works like how C-ciel 7th is used in the same situation . Of course if you're in close enough range to pickup the combo it's best to get in the damage. But as shown here, I'm no where near the target and decide to fish for it (It hits for otg dmg if they choose not to tech as well). It hits a bit late here because I botched the timing from ciel's huge dash startup causing me to miss the meaty hit, which would have lead to an aerial combo. In this situation it's also good to 6236C in the event they choose to tech forward to what seems to be a favorable spot. Should the opponent end up behind you, 6236C is converted to 214C and you score damage anyhow (236C otg followup can add even more damage in this case!)

4:22
BE5C
...get it this time

4:28
236B
rushing in after the 623A may have resulted in a few options such as xaq being able to escape with a jump out or, as you see here, me potentially running into a poke. I choose to back out to near tip-hit range of hi flicker (but a bit too far here lol) in hopes to clip a limb or jump out.

4:39
AD punisherrrrr
Oops. Likely a fuckup on xaq's part. However, I fail to capitalize lol. 214A to the back for possible CH would have probably been better (how often does this situation come up though lol). I'll keep it in mind should it ever happen again.


5:02
MAX MODE
Hmmm not really sure if this was the best decision. I hold a decent amount of regenerative health and xaq is one combo away from death. Perhaps I could have attempted someheat here to possibly close the round and/or at least regen that 2K or so of life and hold on to a stronger lead. Really torn on what would have been the best answer here.

5:19
BE3C
From time to time I throw these out at relatively safe distances in hopes to catch a hasty rush or poor aerial spacing. Fortunately for xaq, he barely escapes the hit with a double jump. As for me, I get to freely move after the whiff and rethink my landing positioning.

5:23
Otg FPFP
Close the rd out. Forget trying for a mixup
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 05:26:46 PM by This Forum Is Utter Garbage »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2011, 05:19:21 PM »
Cn't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UUMUDeASdE


Match 3
5:54
ex syncher followup
Bleh, going for sjA was a bad idea. Not worth going for the measly damage. jA*3>jBC is still fair enough damage. F-ciel does have double somer variants off of the syncher launch worth practicing.

6:10
BE5C
Reading Rainbow. Wasn't expecting CH, went for sad combo instead.

6:15
reversal
Who wouldn't reversal of some sorts in this situation (Hmoon entering MAX MODE on wakeup)? Should have done something a bit more passive-aggressive like dash in a bit after air throw and meaty 214a or 236B

6:18
double jump CH
Likely a failed air backdash (j4a+b) in attempts to reposition away from air-to-air threat. Rushing head in on Ries (look out jB) is not a good idea, especially after burning two jumps.

6:24
dash 5a>4c
ries's lower than average jump arc makes it harder for her to get around anticipatory AA fishing like dash 4C, stationary 4C, or dash 5a>4c. I normally use around the end of ciel's dash distance to measure the spacing for this.

6:38
4b>236b>sj
Another failed late air backdash. Wake up GG attempt would have been blown up most likely.

6:40
SC>5A
Keeping the rd finisher simple w/ 5a>4c. nothing fancy, just end it.

6:52
4C
BE5C misinput (it happens lol). 4C vs on reaction to incoming jumping attacks is probably the worst way to use this move now. The days of MBAC are over. Also, take 5.6k for your fuckup.  ::)

6:59
wakeup 236a
ries's distance after airthrow is rather horrible to say the least. It gives the defender a lot of breathing room to attempt many escape options that I could imagine would be pretty annoying for the ries user to deal with. Options include: 623A>confirm, sj9, j7>sdj, 236a, or 623c

7:05
ries jC CH
The jC here likely beat out a j7B as I whore this move out a lot. Problem is, here I'm still recovering a bit from the previous BE5C and it doesn't allow me to get airborne in time to have the jB out for ries to run into. Xaq burns all of his aerial movement before hand and 22B would have definitely been the better option here (the hell, I did it every other time but here! lol)

7:06
CS throw
I'm sure this situation has come up with not just myself: In max mode, mashing abc, abc, abc but the burst never happens...so you keep mashing like "wtf, where's my burst!". That's what happens here. Mashed abc furiously once the CH pops up but still no CS occurs and by the time it does come out, I get thrown lol. There are situations where I'll mash abc then just give up after a certain point and just settle for getting comboed rather than get baited.

7:24
BE5C
same situation but I get BE5C instead of unintentional 4C this time. Released a bit to late to nail landing recovery though.

7:53-7:57
lucky j214c hit>combo into cmd A
Ok, this is probably the worst decision made the entire set. Sitting on only 25% circuit and I choose to go for safe jump setup...for what?! There's absolutely no threat w/o the 100% stock to attempt the fuzzy guard setup. Also, ries was already set very close to the corner and I give up my positioning by throwing away from the corner. Lastly, I give up 2K damage and extra meter which would have complemented the corner positioning after the fact. My read for a wakeup throw attempt fails and I end up taking big damage shortly after.

8:13
random 236C
I don't see this move too often but I could have probably punished with something here as the cancel was done pretty late. Problem is, I have to go in the lab to find out what are the most damaging options. I have to learn to be prepared to late bunker this attack as well in the event that the sequence is executed airtight.

8:16
fall on 236[a]
I burn up two jumps here and fall into a shield rush I wasn't ready for. This was completely unexpected and results in me getting checkmated by limiting my movement options beforehand.

GGs
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 05:37:27 PM by This Forum Is Utter Garbage »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline Shiki

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2011, 05:46:08 PM »
Gawd. Horrible quality. :/

Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2011, 05:59:03 PM »
Use your imagination. :|

Also, thanks for posting something remotely relevant to the content. :tup:
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:00:43 PM by This Forum Is Utter Garbage »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline Shiki

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2011, 07:31:10 AM »
Use your imagination. :|

Also, thanks for posting something remotely relevant to the content. :tup:

Come over this week for F-Ciel mirrors. I want to get blown up more matches. I'll probably bring over my capture card

P.S: Can't really comment on the matches since they aren't currently loading for me.

Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2011, 08:33:59 AM »
Not really sure if using a different capdevice will necessarily improve stream quality. After all, we're using a (poor) laptop to do so. Unless you're bringing a laptop that could handle beastly streaming you should probably bring an external HD if you have. This way we can use WMM to record directly for far better quality. No sense in streaming for shit quality especially when you consider that no one is really watching the streams to begin with.
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline Tone

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2011, 12:43:31 PM »
i wish i got to play as much as i would like to. location fail kinda sucks, i havent gotten the chance to play another human since NEC  :'(

i'll try and get some of my matches recorded on shakycam @ nci later this week.
da  only mb player in north bay, get hype!

Offline Zaelar

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2011, 12:30:21 AM »
Zar, if you want we can try to get together so you can record some of my f-ciel so you have some more beginner level f-ciel footage for newer players to start with.  You'll get plenty of examples of things not to do.

If you're willing I'd like to take this a little further.  If I can get some equipment and you can get to my place one weekend I think we could put together something amazing, and hopefully inspire better tutorial videos all around.

Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2011, 07:07:14 PM »
i'll try and get some of my matches recorded on shakycam @ nci later this week.
Looking forward to this. Let me know how it goes.


Zar, if you want we can try to get together so you can record some of my f-ciel so you have some more beginner level f-ciel footage for newer players to start with.  You'll get plenty of examples of things not to do.

If you're willing I'd like to take this a little further.  If I can get some equipment and you can get to my place one weekend I think we could put together something amazing, and hopefully inspire better tutorial videos all around.
this isn't a bad idea. No F-Ciel mirrors though - the game is no longer melty blood at that point lol. Fortunately, I have two other characters to help out w/ training if you're serious. Could try to throw some other players in the mix for extra variety.

As for recording equip, my luck w/ recording and streaming in general has been horrible lately (sorry, I only know how to do MB right), so considering you know how to operate such futuristic devices (aka sorcery!), guess you can give it a shot. I'm pretty much done with the tutorial deal as far as that goes but if we ever get CC I'm definitely running the tutorial series back with plenty of revised and new material!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 07:13:29 PM by This Forum Is Utter Garbage »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline Tone

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2011, 12:58:53 PM »
didn't get any recorded unfortunately due to the lack of camera (someone needed to use it to take pictures at a party that day, sadly), but there's still a question I want to ask.

What exactly SHOULD I be using in regards of defense vs. characters who are completely on top of me at all times, or to be specific, Vakiha? On offense, I'm fine, but neutral gets kinda scary if I can't keep her out with keys (this is worrying me especially considering her movement options) or score a knockdown, and once she's at point blank and on top if me, I'm not sure what do so, since I can't block forever and get mixed up at one point. I'm not sure if I should be trying to nail a reversal or a charge 4B or something here, or if there's something specific I should be trying to beat out or avoid. Or should I just be trying to get the hell out of there and create a gap again? I'm really kinda lost here, some footage of this match would help greatly if you have.  :-[

On the plus side, I have been getting used to implementing charged 5B, spacing with B flicker, and scaring people into getting hit by command grab a lot more lately. It's just that for everywhere I get offense-wise and execution-wise, I'm still at a loss on defense aside from AAing predictable IADs, throw techs, and punishing gaps in blockstrings.
da  only mb player in north bay, get hype!

Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2011, 07:29:55 PM »
What exactly SHOULD I be using in regards of defense vs. characters who are completely on top of me at all times, or to be specific, Vakiha? On offense, I'm fine, but neutral gets kinda scary if I can't keep her out with keys (this is worrying me especially considering her movement options) or score a knockdown, and once she's at point blank and on top if me, I'm not sure what do so, since I can't block forever and get mixed up at one point. I'm not sure if I should be trying to nail a reversal or a charge 4B or something here, or if there's something specific I should be trying to beat out or avoid. Or should I just be trying to get the hell out of there and create a gap again? I'm really kinda lost here, some footage of this match would help greatly if you have.  :-[
Not sure if you mean "on top of you" as in literally above your head on or on the ground set at point blank range. In any case, I can provide some insight on how you can try to manage composure in both situations.



Above your head
I feel that F-ciel's greatest strength is her ability to hold her ground very well at mid range (just outside of Hi Flicker range or in as close as 2B range). Showing your opponent that blind rushing is not an option and ground-based footsie is limited will usually get the player to fall back on other means of approach i.e. by IAD's and jumping or retreat further to initiate zoning if that option is available for the character. The obvious answer to the former approach (via aerial assult) is to make use of F-Ciel's many anti-air choices, each holding it's own unique purpose decided by spacing, positioning, speed of approach and most importantly, the defender's (that being you) reflexes to a situation.

The most basic answers for a aerial approaches would be to:
(Held) Shield>SC OR 22A
Moderate to High Risk: Moderate Reward

While this is a handy universal mechanic, overuse is not recommended as it's relatively simple to bait out and can sometimes be punished inadvertently. Vakiha has the ability to air dash twice and can thus bait out your shield attempting using a rather common double airdash maneuver (usu. seen on oki, however). Shielding is probably strongest when used very sparingly and mixed in with F-Ciel's other AA options. **SHIELD>22A is useful against extremely deep jump-ins as SC has more startup (9F iirc) and while 22A will not score you solid damage, its startup (3F) makes up for it and will usually get you a CH launch and down (6236C followup can punish all ground techs if executed properly after opponent lands from CH 22A).

22B
Moderate to High Risk: Low to Moderate Reward

Another extremely simple AA answer and as with shielding, it won't get you much in return but is still useful when applied in moderation. Its weakness lies again in its likeliness of being baited. Counter-solutions can be as simple as double jumping back, causing the somer to whiff and be punished. Also, it can be rather difficult to B Somer on reaction to some of the linear IAD's (e.g. Ries, Shiki, Kouma) and can too result in a whiff if mistimed. In most cases, it's far easier to react with, say, 5[C] or [4B] or [4D] in a short period of time than it is to mash 2's. 22B is still good for nailing obvious jumps and pedictable post-airtech movements.


Most practical answers include:
BE5C or BE4C
Low to Moderate Risk: Moderate to High Reward

As you should already know, these are the most reliable answers to obvious aerial approaches and to some extent can be used as reactionary AA tools.
Its weakness comes mainly from improper positioning and on occasion the depth of your opponent's attack. Both are vulnerable to super-deep jump-ins (4B more so) but fortunately, human error will not allow for such consistency in this type of approach so it's safe to say that these options are for the most part very reliable. Positioning should be highly considered as its other weakness lies in its inability to clash hits that strike directly above (I'm talking about smack dead on the center of her head) or behind. Usually a simple adjustment such as walking back for a bit will set the approriate spacing to force the clash. If you're still feeling uncertain about spacing in this matter, you always have the option to fall back on the basic options again or use some more "unconventional" AA's.


Alternative answers:
Dash under>normal 5C(10F) OR 2B(8F)>236A
(*Stole this from some of the very early verA F-Ciel matches lol)
Low to Moderate Risk: Moderate Reward
Now one may ponder: Why in the hell would someone want to dash head in on a jumping attack? Well, considering that Ciel has one of the lowest profiles/states in the game while performing a dash, slipping under and behind an attacker can be quite simple and is certainly viable . A simple 6A+B[4] input will get you under most IAD's (just don't do this against ries IAD cus the bitch goes nowhere lol) and can sneak you, at the last second, under and behind basic air approaches. If executed properly, the 5C can score you a CH from behind or tag landing recovery (If they chose to attack from a normal jump). This technique becomes useful in the event that you are positioned in a spot where 5C or 4B can be hit from behind. It can also be a means to trade places if you're backed into the corner.

J7B>dj.7>airdash (6A+B)
Low Risk: Moderate to High Reward

For whatever reason...F-Ciel's jB is a valid air-to-air answer. This has given me excellent results, yielding either a CH hit (into airdash>jC followup) or at the worst, a trade (which is sometimes in my favor by allowing me to land first). The best spots to go for this is in the general area where you would want to go for a clean hit 22B AA. When you're watching your opponent's approach from the air and get the urge to B Somer but they have yet to exhaust all air movement (potential bait), j7B can take it's place for far less risk. To some extent, j7B can be used as an anticipatory defensive attack vs high-speed, linear IAD's (e.g. Vermilion =D). The risk is relatively low as you are jumping away from the opponent while air defending AND you move to a more favorable position upon landing. To make matters worse for the offender, j7B>dj7>6A+B(airdash)~[4]>(confirm CH)>jC is an OS against air-to-air shielding attempts (lol).


BE3C>dj9>airbackdash(4A+B)
Low to Moderate Risk: Moderate to High Reward

Do not sleep on this. As retarded as it may sound, BE3C can be effective for striking down overaggressive players but spacing should be HIGHLY considered. First off, the start up on this is immense so it's best to fish for it when well outside of your opponent's attack range (roughly 3/4 screen away from opponent's corner or further). Second, the intention of executing from so far away is to strike down an anticipated aerial approach while being able to score solid damage in the event of a counter hit. Last, should the BE3C whiff all together, F-ciel is able to double jump and retreat (or advance!) to a favorable landing position. When BE3C does strike as a CH, it will launch extra high and provide ample time to freestlye a juggle combo. SDJ can also be used on whiff to scout the opponent from above and strike with j214A/B at safer distances.


Grounded At Point-Blank
If you managed to lose the upperhand and can't keep the opponent outside of your "comfort zone" you can try some of these tools to help you turn things around so that you can establish offense again:


Conventional Reversal options:
5B (5F)

A fast normal, hits low, and has more range that 5A or 2A. If an opponents strings run on too long and they push themselves out too far, you can slip one of these out for them to run into. 5B>236A or 5B>2B>236A are easily confirmable on hit but can also give you more breathing room if you choose to commit to the sequence when it has been guarded. The downside to this is that: 1) You're standing, can't protect legs while poking out, 2) are neutral(5) can't defend while attacking. With that being said, it's very important to judge distance when tossing one of these out (hit with tip) but most importantly you need a good understanding of how the character's guardstrings work as well as a good read on when the attack gaps will show on said guardstrings. 5B is also capable of stuffing predictable redash 5A/2A garbage and the threat of being lvl armored can make it a pain to deal with for the offender.

236A (7F)
TSA got away with this often in his matches (when he used to play F-Ciel! T_T) and considering it's range and speed it's easy to see why. Application is a bit tricky, however. Low Flicker reversal is best when used after an opponent has pushed themselves well out of range of a whiffed 5B (which is just about the tip-hit of Low Flicker range). Often times this will tag an attempt to dash back in to close space or snatch jump startup against an IAD attempt after a guardstring has ended abruptly.


Alternative options:
Jumping & Ex Guarding

Pretty universal. Jumping is probably a bit more safe than trying to press buttons when it's not your turn. This of course doesn't guarantee escape as you are vulnerable to lows and some characters have easy confirms from dash attacks that may strike you in the air. As for ex guarding, more pushback is induced in addition to the defender reducing disadvantage by a bit (+2) and can create enough space to couple in a jump out attempt. Not as free as it is to type out this option though.

4A>4C
When reading opponent's IAD attempt to close the gap or reset pressure at closer proximities, 4A>4C can either clip jump startup (remain grounded) or tag the opponent while the are airborne. Should 4A>4C hit grounded, end with 236A to force a down, otherwise confirm aerial hit and finish the combo. Rember that there is the risk of being lvl armored attempting this defensive strat.

Exguarding & 623A(5F)
Again, Exguarding will produce more pushback and reduce guard disadvantage by 2F. The successful combination of the two will allow you to get off a 623A reversal if distance is well judged. 623A is 5F startup and is confirmable to 236C OR 623C (The confirm is moderately difficult and maytake a bit of practice though). It's also assumed that you will be cornered when attempting the A syncher reversal so 236C confirm will yield favorable positioning (since followup damage on 623C will be impossible at this point).


"Gimmicky" Reversals:
22A>j214C

Just as it says, this shit is kinda gimmicky (you've been warned). While 22A has no invulnerability its startup(3F) is ridiculously fast and can slice through sloppy strings when cornered. Shadow Snipe after will of course make the reversal safe should it be guarded.

623C
If you've been given far too much breathing room than you deserve (just outside of 2B range), have the meter to spare, why not? Well, it's not invulnerable for one but it can get you out of the corner (while attacking) if the opponent is unable to close the gap in time.


I feel that ALL of the grounded reversal options are of high risk and don't yield much reward. However, (calculated) risks can sometimes pay off and will allow you to gain the upperhand for lucking out. In the long run I feel that guarding (with occasional EX-guard attempts) is the best to fall back on, while watching for mistakes in excution (not uncommon) and looking for patterns in attack strings. The above options become more viable when you display (or feign) extreme patience and develop good reads. Hope this post wasn't tl;dr material for you lol.



Vs VAkiha (Assuming it's Half Moon here)
@Neutral
If Vakiha is trying to estabilish a runaway game, then they're asking for trouble. 214B's shoot her out of the air when trying for high positioned j22s. It's best to go for these at what I reffer to as Range 4. Range 4 is approx. a character space to a full backstep's range (or further) starting at the point where 236B (High Flicker) would just whiff a grounded opponent (There's another range where 214B is useful but will have to explain in another post). At this point it will be hard for Vaki to get around the fan of knives w/o having to use double jumps, sdj's and airdashes. You want her to either exhaust more air movement to approach/evade or to stay grounded and try to move in with dashes. Should the player choose the latter, then you can go to work with the stronger ground game (2B's, 236B/A's, BE5C, 214A, 623A). Smart movement, however, can get players around the fan but this usually requires anticipation. If they start getting antsy about knife fan and going to the air early w/o you actually having to throw knives, then you already have the upperhand. Their options then are to either continue an aerial pursuit (which you'll be ready to counter with multiple and RANDOM AA options) or use double jumps/airdashes to back off (which you in turn pursue to place them nearer to corner).

Should Vaki still be grounded after a 214B read has been launched, keep watch for the player to approach by ground to punish the recovery. It may not seem like a good idea but 214B>214C is actually a good option in this situation and can cover your tracks in the event of a bad read. Also 214C can be ex canceled to 623C if opponent has already positioned above your head allowing you to escape to a favorable spot.

For a surprise attack, Sj.922B can be effective vs the overzealous j22x Vakiha user. Confirm into throw on hit or double jump out and reposition your landing to a favorable spot if whiffed.




Unfortunately, this is the best info I could provide with the little experience I've had with this match up. Hope it was at least insightful. Below are some old TSA matches against a F-VAkiha user. When I say old, I mean '09 - hell, TSA hardly even plays this way anymore and has refined his style many times over since. Nontheless, this footage is what I used to get started and I sometimes reffer back to them to examine the match up and compare movement/former styles. Hope you find it useful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNQz5rOEI7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSfyn39dPa0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL6si7Z6dUA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qwYl7tGyL8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2o1oJ5lurE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8s69DcXLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtdCvM_LcdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJnPKAJccAw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeUjZNe10c



EDIT:
I'm very aware that F-VAkiha =/= H-Vakiha in many respects but uhhh finding footage of that match up specifically (HVaki v FCL), let alone F-Ciel, is quite the bitch.  :emo:

good luck!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:08:59 PM by ZAR »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline dumba989

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2011, 12:48:53 PM »
So can anyone answer me why JP does not play this character?
"I used to be a christian then I met anime.. now i practice witchcraft and dark magics."
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Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2011, 02:41:20 PM »
because a shitty american player figured her out before they could.  :blah:
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline dumba989

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Re: MBAA : Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2011, 03:29:09 PM »
because a shitty american player figured her out before they could.  :blah:

^ They took shots at y'all?
"I used to be a christian then I met anime.. now i practice witchcraft and dark magics."
-Anony on Sankaku