Melty Bread Forums
Atlas Academy => Kohaku's Magical Garage => : Relunx October 27, 2010, 12:27:29 AM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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Yo all!
I've been watching countless MBAACC match/2on2/etc vids (youtube/nico), and concluded that noone uses Blood Heat activation. IS AAD and LA that underrated (s*ck)? Let me write my thoughts:
Note: Blood Heat will lasts for 13sec (while normal Heat lasts for 9sec)
Last Arc:
Powerful but risky. Mostly do 3,5k at minimum and 7-7,5k at maximum.
I understand this is a high risky move, but players do Shield Bunkers and Shield Counters all the time, so I think it's not a problem to execute it in high level play.
Blood Heat:
I know it's not suited for Crescent Moon bcoz of MAX's Burst and EX spam, while you start at 200% again, so let's talk about Full Moon's Blood Heat (I also know that sometimes are situations that you MUST use Circuit Break to get back pressure or escape round loss):
What I don't understand is, while I'm watchin those vids, the players that are in MAX and attacked with a combo, they immediately used Circuit Spark to avoid further dmg. My question is, why don't they eat the full combo, then use BH activation to regain red life instantly regaining more life than the previously ate combo did to them? And there were situations where the players can unpunishable activate BH but instead they used IH.
There are many AAD's that are really useful, and can easly trap your oppenent for a neat 4-5k dmg:
I split them into 3 groups.
Unblockable: Nanaya, Ryougi, Satsuki
Set up: Ciel, Nero
Grab: Kouma, Akiha, S.Akiha
Unblockable is not much to explain: doing it in close range or max 2 chars away is an almost garantee success.
Set up: you can easly create set ups to launch your AAD to hit your opponent
Grab: typically dash in and do AAD (after a well executed +frame blockstring) makes an almost garantee success
Some of the AAD's are able to combo into it making your BnB's much more powerful.
I know the downside is that you have to start at 0%, but while you're in Blood Heat mode, you definitely change the mood/pressure. Your opponent now have to worry about LA and AAD which makes them more cautious and push out them from their usual gameplay.
I asked several people, and they responded:
"Blood Heat is a low level techniqe. Your opponent become very cautious which makes them avoid your AAD."
Why is it a low level techniqe?
And I think if you set up your AADs I'm sure you can give your opponent a hard time to avoid it.
Let's assume you hit your opponent with your AAD/LA and do 4-5k damage. Isn't worth it?
I want to hear those people opinions that are "against" Blood Heat activation and why is not worth to use it.
(Please refrain about answering in 1-3 words or posting a single link/smiley etc)
Relunx
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What I don't understand is, while I'm watchin those vids, the players that are in MAX and attacked with a combo, they immediately used Circuit Spark to avoid further dmg. My question is, why don't they eat the full combo, then use BH activation to regain red life instantly regaining more life than the previously ate combo did to them?
Wait, what? Remember that the red life decreases, too. You will get less life by doing this, so Circuit Spark is the better choice.
Basically the most useful way of using it is to regain life - when you are safe. Let's say after you wallslammed an opponent and use the gap to regain your life. And people will get cautious if you just suddenly go into BH. I would.
btw, shouldn't this be in the Gameplay section?
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Crescent isn't likely to be in a situation to activate with a high amount of max bar. It's dumb to activate with a low ammount since you can just wait and activate normal heat at 200% and regen more health. It's possible to get the right situation for a blood heat, but it's done coincidentally for the life regen, the other mechanics are just a bonus.
Full isn't likely to use blood heat because instant heat makes you EX-S+ tier for one moment.
You can't just say you're going to take a combo and activate instead of sparking for two reasons. First is you might run out of meter during the combo, and second is your wakeup activate will get baited. Sparks advantageous position is probably better than the meter usage you'd have left with your remaining blood heat bar as well.
What do shield bunkers being used have to do with last arcs being safe? Shielding isn't the most unsafe thing you can do if used sparingly, but it's not safe when your opponent is expecting it.
I'm a bit curious about Satsuki not being in the grab section and why you had to split unblockables and grabs when they're used exactly the same way(except f-akiha(and probably s.akiha) has gay setups). Shouldn't they be in the set up section then? Please tell me Ciel is in the set up section by mistake and you don't consider comboing into it a set up.
If you're going to assume you land an AAD/LA for 4-5k my counter argument is I'm going to assume you'll land 3 EX moves for 6-7k by not using heat.
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Blood Heat is used in two situations:
1: Attempting to parody Harman Smith.
2: Attempting to parody Jiyuna parody Harman Smith.
Honestly, it's a pity that Blood Heat doesn't last even longer considering the penalty that activation incurs. For the most part it's better just to keep the MAX meter for the leftover EX afterwards.
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The main reason why people don't go into blood heat is because its simply not worth it. Sometimes blood heat arc drives are WORSE than their normal heat counter parts. A few to name are Mech hisui, who loses invulnerability on her arc drive in blood heat, allowing her to be knocked out of it. Another example is Nanayas BHAD, which is only good vs full moon, and thats if they don't know the timing. C and H moon character dodge his BHAD for FREE and get a nice fat CH BNB on him. Full moon can back dash it, but the timing it tighter.
Comboing into BHAD is not worth it because most BNBs do similar damage meter-less and don't have to reset to 0% and temporary prorated meter gain. in full moon its better off to do an initiative heat combo to gain your life back safely. which brings me to another point.
Unless you setup the heat activation, blood heat is baitable and punishable as well.
Yes there are exceptions like Satsuki and Ryougi who have really good BHADs and can use them if they feel like throwing meter away.
Also shield bunker is vastly different from a shield, and will not activate a last arc. and on that note, Last arcs are as much of a risk for you as your opponent. A dumb guessing game few people want to play, and some times the last arc wont be worth it even if you do land it.
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Wait, what? Remember that the red life decreases, too. You will get less life by doing this, so Circuit Spark is the better choice.
Most of the time players did oki combos which did 2k-ish dmg. So they'd end up more life if they used BH activation.
And in CC combos are do less dmg. Lots of chars can't ever reach 4k. (Combo dmg is around 3-3,5k, except counter hit combos)
If you're going to assume you land an AAD/LA for 4-5k my counter argument is I'm going to assume you'll land 3 EX moves for 6-7k by not using heat.
Landing one Last Arc/AAD is much much way easyer than landing 3 EX.
Comboing into BHAD is not worth it because most BNBs do similar damage meter-less
I can do 8k AAD combo with F-Ciel on vakiha which is 7k-ish on all other chars.
When can you do a 8k meterless combo? Tell me.
Last arcs are as much of a risk for you as your opponent. A dumb guessing game few people want to play, and some times the last arc wont be worth it even if you do land it.
Why dump guessing game? Sure is a guessing game but equals oki guessing game.
Landing 4-5k dmg is not worth it?...okay next time I won't do combos coz it's not worth it to deal dmg to my opponent.
So pros and contras so far:
Pros:
- gameplay change in opponent's game (he become cautious/defensive)
- almost 100% success setups for certain charaters
- Last Arc
- instant life regain (vs Circuit Spark)
- Guard Meter reset
- average reversal move to get out of pressure
- Circuit Break after successful Last Arc
Cons (vs IH/Spark):
- IH makes you EX-S+ tier for one moment
- you might run out of meter during the time you took a combo and no time left to activate it
- your wakeup activate will get baited
- Spark's advantageous position is probably better
- Sometimes AAD are WORSE than their normal AD versions
Relunx
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f-ries would like a word with you
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Landing one Last Arc/AAD is much much way easyer than landing 3 EX.
While ease of connecting an EX isn't necessarily the issue here, let's take F-Aoko for example. She's a character that needs meter for her supers like 236C (controlling space), j.214C (oki), and 214C (Blue Fire mixup). An F-Aoko player will more than likely opt for using these supers than saving meter for Last Arc/AAD. IH is really good for her and her normal arc drive is already a good punisher.
EDIT: Moved to Game Engine Mechanics
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Honestly Relunx, once you start playing higher level matches, You'll realize just how bad it is. Whenever I play a good player, I never go into blood heat.
But whenever the level of play is down signifigantly, I have enough room to, or if I just feel like trolling. Yes, I called BH's troll. They're really not good, and you can sit down and argue over pros/cons, but that's not the best way to look at it. You'll come to naturally understand why it's bad the more and more you play, as your understanding of risk/reward increases and you learn what is worth it and what is not.
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Relunx, while you understand enough basic english to have a basic conversation you are making several errors. I assume the mistakes you are making are because you misunderstood something because you are new to the english language. Please don't let this stop you from further learning english, use it as a reason to continue learning and perfect your communication skills!
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People generously spend their time giving the reasons as to why they don't use BH and as far as I can see, you're just slamming them for no reason. If you're not gonna take their opinions, why ask in the first place?
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I'm not slamming them. I just gave them an explanation to their answers.
And I clearly staded in my post that I know there's some situations where IH/Spark is better than BH activation.
I understand that lot's of charaters are not have a good AAD and it's not worth using it, but some chars (listed above) have really good AAD.
BH activation depends on situations and character (as you mentioned Aoko and I think F-Wlen are also a char that needs/depends on EX moves).
But there's time when you can (and worth) activate BH, but instead players ignore it, even if the situation is right.
Risk. Yes, choosing BH maybe risky bcoz it can be punished (almost every move can be punished), but not choosing BH is also risky, coz you chose to use 3 EX instead of Life regeneration and that would be fatal too.
I understand your opinions as I stated them in the pro/cons.
Relunx
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(as you mentioned Aoko and I think F-Wlen are also a char that needs/depends on EX moves).
who told you that?!
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Being a C-Ryougi player I usually don't have to worry about meter that much, it just sort of happens.
In terms of BH though I see it as I do the normal activation with a couple differences:
1: Lasts longer allowing me to keep the fear factor on.
2: It usually stops people from using projectiles because they're really easy to get a LA off of.
3: Ryougi only, it makes the AAD almost work like a reversal. It's a two frame activation IIRC and completely invincible until finish after that.
That said, I hardly ever use it because Max mode lets me keep meter advantage.
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I stopped using blood heat when Zar made an OS against me on the spot at Evo. :|
I stopped doing a lot of dumb things when I realized how it only covered one option as opposed to 3/5 possible scenarios. Blood heat activation is large wall slam, and gives you access to last arc/blood heat arc drive but the fact that it's only one hit makes you easily beatable to delay attacks or a simple clash frame with a huge cooldown time for your opponent to punish you. You would need a damn good Another Arc Drive or Last Arc or spammable EX to even consider it. And yeah, IH god-tier is amazing.
Also the other reasons people stated about meter management, etc...
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Comboing into BHAD is not worth it because most BNBs do similar damage meter-less
I can do 8k AAD combo with F-Ciel on vakiha which is 7k-ish on all other chars.
When can you do a 8k meterless combo? Tell me.
Last arcs are as much of a risk for you as your opponent. A dumb guessing game few people want to play, and some times the last arc wont be worth it even if you do land it.
Why dump guessing game? Sure is a guessing game but equals oki guessing game.
Landing 4-5k dmg is not worth it?...okay next time I won't do combos coz it's not worth it to deal dmg to my opponent.
And? I can do an 11k combo with fSatsuki on vakiha instantly killing her IF im in blood heat and start with a move that will probably never land. Its situational and something you really shouldn't worry about. fCiel should be able to pull 6k on vakiha pretty easily meter-less.
Last arcs are a dumb guessing game because if you miss the timing or shield wrong, you yourself are going to eat 4-6k and they didn't have to spend meter. Also, last arcs are dependent on how much is left in the blood heat guage, and if you have no meter left its going to do like 3k damage, which is pretty bad in this game, and not worth it. ALSO People can just avoid you and run away until your out of blood heat and your left with 0%.
Risk. Yes, choosing BH maybe risky bcoz it can be punished (almost every move can be punished), but not choosing BH is also risky, coz you chose to use 3 EX instead of Life regeneration and that would be fatal too.
Your kind of right. but using those 3 ex in C moon leaves you at 200% meter, possibly allowing you to safely heat with a ton of meter left over. in F moon you can IH to instantly recover your life back completely safely. If your playing normally as i've mentioned before, blood heat, for some characters, in some situations, is a good idea. But theres always a risk with blood heat. In tournament and you've put your own money on the line with big investment possibly within your grasp at the end of it all. You want to minimize risks as much as possible and not rely on specific situations and bad choices on your opponents behalf to land a BHAD or LA.
Too lazy to quote another thing you said, but while LA and BHADs are easy damage, they are not easier to land. Even unblockable ones have ways to be avoided, or if you setup into them generally do poor damage.
I don't want to go over all the pros and cons you posted, but one thing I saw is you mention circuit break. Its usually very minimal and the circuit break ends by the time they recover from being hit by the LA. Also most characters get an average reversal move meter-less or at least are least costly meter-wise.
Overall in most peoples minds. Blood heats are risky, generally not worth it because of alternatives that don't carry a risk or have as steep of a cost, and can possibly end up putting you in a worse situation.
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Hell, I'd say in most dire full moon situations, assuming you do not literally have <1500 life left you would be better to shield if you think your opponent was going to hit you in max rather than blood heat reversal. This way, if you're successful you get some control over the match with your successful shield (against most characters) or if you fuck up and get hit or whatever you can just spark (short of being grabbed, but if you didn't have <1500 life this won't matter). I'd say BH activation is pretty risky. In a bad situation you could try a reversal (should your character have one),mash, or shield, and if you fuck up just spark. If you're not in a dire situation in the first place, you should know what to do with IH.
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I was watching today's MeltyBread YouTube uploads and found out two relevant examples to the discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rNrdWE6Uzc#t=2m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rNrdWE6Uzc#t=6m30s
Both activations were post knockdown, thus safe. Kouma didn't get a lot of worth out of it, despite integrating AAD into a combo. But Satsuki got a nice unblockable setup. I'm actually not sure, can you escape that? VSion jumped, but still got caught. :mystery:
Still, I personally stay away from BH activations, I prefer spark backup and meter advantage.
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Some characters use it occasionally(Satsuki, Kouma) but overall it's not that good. For using it offensively you need to get a knockdown and have enough time to go into blood heat to keep it long enough for it to be intimidating. That situation is not all that common because most players would prefer not to gimp their combo early so they could go into blood heat and MAYBE have a chance of dealing more damage, especially with F moon characters who can use IH to extend their combos so they already get great damage.
Sion - weak BHAD
FVsion - BHAD is good but you need good knockdown(623c and 2c probably the only things that will give it to you) and her AD is already very good
Arc - weak BHAD, mainly used for punishing and she can use her AD for that too.
Warc - abysmal BHAD
Akiha - death trap is reliable way to get good damage.
Vakiha - weak BHAD
Sakiha - awful character
Fmaids - Should be using meter on cactus, especially with Koha lead AAD being awful
Hisui - no good way to go into blood heat in midscreen and in corner ex ladder will guarantee you extra damage. They're just going to block so they don't get hit by AAD combo anyways so you get overall less damage.
Kohaku - abysmal BHAD
Mech-Hisui - not fully invul BHAD while she has fully invul AD. F wants to use meter to get better knockdowns for setups anyways.
KohaMech - not a character
Tohno - IH combo breaks 7k easily why would I want to go into BHAD for a bad BHAD?
Nanaya - easy BHAD to avoid with great uses for IH, why would he want to go into blood heat?
Ryougi - gets used sometimes.
Len - weak BHAD.
White Len - bad use of meter
Ciel - C has waay better uses for meter and somerheat is hella scary in F.
Nero - not easy to get a situation where you have enough time to get ex crows, heat, ex crows, BHAD. Also a large element of risk in doing this since a lot of characters have answers that go under crows.
Warachia - Comboing into BHAD does less damage than normal AD. Random AAD is waay better than AD but I'd rather have that 100% meter regardless if I'm right or wrong so I can use heat, which is his only not abysmal reversal.
Satsuki - gets used.
Miyako - IH combo does big damage.
Aoko - see HF's post.
Kouma - gets used.
Roa - have to combo into AAD for it to be useful but he has nearly no mixup so how is he going to hit his opponent so he can use it? IH is much better.
Ries - IH combo does good damage.
Mecha-Neko - who cares?
Necos - who cares?
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- gameplay change in opponent's game (he become cautious/defensive)
Not necessarily true... it actually probably works more the other way around. If your mind is set on landing a Last Arc you're going to have the urge to shield whenever an opportunity arises instead of actually reading your opponent making yourself easily baitable. Just because they won't recklessly throw out moves doesn't mean they'll play defensive. ex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMSo9KD4A1Y#t=5m58s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMSo9KD4A1Y#t=5m58s)
- almost 100% success setups for certain charaters
...wat?
- Last Arc
:psyduck:
- instant life regain (vs Circuit Spark)
Circuit Spark is probably used more since it's a GET THE FUCK OFF ME tool. If they want to recover, they'll Blood Heat but even then it's probably just coincidental being in MAX.
- Guard Meter reset
This game has guard meter? :psyduck:
- average reversal move to get out of pressure
That's like the equivalent of a wake up Ultra... which always works on me, you win this round...! :emo:
- Circuit Break after successful Last Arc
:psyduck:
You're making it seem that AADs and LAs are really good and really likely to happen. It'd be like C-Kohaku going into Heat whenever she had 100% meter to try and land her AD, but you don't ever see anyone do that for a reason. Though I have a feeling none of this nor anything anyone says will be able to falter your stand on this topic for some reason.
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Its a BHAD idea
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Tnx for the thoughts/advices guys.
When I'm using BH activation, I'm using in situations when I'm cannot be punished such as: OTG, post OTG, wallslam, 1 screen away or opponent is CH-airborne and I can't reach him with an air combo. Usually I'm not using BH as a wakeup unless I really need life, but I'll reconsider and change this to a wakeup shield/spark (wakeup shield is not my specialty, but soon I'll get used to it, and Full Moon has long shield so delayed attacks can be shielded too).
As for IH, I rarely use it. I prefer F-Ciel's AAD than her normal AD. She can do meterless 6k (and 5k dmg in CC) so to me it's a waste to use IH to add some dmg to my combo. Although, I know the using of "22x IH" can f*ck up the opponent big time if mixed in blocktrings. But even if you succeeded and messed up your opponent and successfully land a combo with the "22x IH", is equal to me as landing a 4-5k dmg AAD. Both versions deals mass dmg, only the method differs.
Relunx
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You need to keep in mind that there are moves that can be IH'd on whiff, which gives you the life without having the vulnerability of a heat activation. Akiha, for example, can throw out a 22/421/214 move and IH almost immediately for very quick and difficult to punish health recovery. IIRC, Sacchin can do the same with her 22 series. This also has the potential to flip the momentum of a match if your opponent blocks/eats the IH'd move.
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Its a BHAD idea
Punsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
Tnx for the thoughts/advices guys.
When I'm using BH activation, I'm using in situations when I'm cannot be punished such as: OTG, post OTG, wallslam, 1 screen away or opponent is CH-airborne and I can't reach him with an air combo. Usually I'm not using BH as a wakeup unless I really need life, but I'll reconsider and change this to a wakeup shield/spark (wakeup shield is not my specialty, but soon I'll get used to it, and Full Moon has long shield so delayed attacks can be shielded too).
As for IH, I rarely use it. I prefer F-Ciel's AAD than her normal AD. She can do meterless 6k (and 5k dmg in CC) so to me it's a waste to use IH to add some dmg to my combo. Although, I know the using of "22x IH" can f*ck up the opponent big time if mixed in blocktrings. But even if you succeeded and messed up your opponent and successfully land a combo with the "22x IH", is equal to me as landing a 4-5k dmg AAD. Both versions deals mass dmg, only the method differs.
Relunx
No good player will ever be hit by a raw BHAD. No good player. EVER.
You're insanely better off going for the insane mixup or bigger damage that a IH can allow.
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itt mugen players
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No good player will ever be hit by a raw BHAD. No good player. EVER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r953jkK_lw8#t=1m07s
LK is not a good player? :mystery:
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Hahaha, tnx for the post Tonberry. +Heat
(I was about to search some vids where players were hit by AADs, but you got ahead of me)
Everyone can be hit by a RAW AAD. Just timing and exectuion are the keys.
Relunx
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I'm Ryougi. I'm the scariest in blood heat.
Attack me and risk eating 7k damage that bypasses defense. Or I scare you into chicken blocking during blockstrings because of a godlike BHAD.
That or I just want to Last Arc Jiyuna :)
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Yeah, and Ryougi also has that LA glitch in AA. Not that doing a flat 7k no matter the circumstances isn't enough.
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Just a random observation, but recently I've been looking at some videos and I've seen Hare go in Blood Heat quite a bit more than other players and then combo in AAD. Not sure if he's doing it for the kicks or not
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Well, Sacchin's AAD is a throw and does better damage than the AD. Dunno.
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Just a random observation, but recently I've been looking at some videos and I've seen Hare go in Blood Heat quite a bit more than other players and then combo in AAD. Not sure if he's doing it for the kicks or not
Satsuki AAD is unescapable in a lot of situations and does more damage when comboed into than almost anything else in the game.
Half the damage is completely unscaled and it's unblockable, undodgeable, unshieldable, and unjumpable. The only way I've seen to get out of it point blank is to do an invincible move.
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Someone definitely dodged it vs Hare and punished him for it.
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Someone definitely dodged it vs Hare and punished him for it.
Pointblank without heat/dp?
How?
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Someone definitely dodged it vs Hare and punished him for it.
It might be dodgeable but it's definitely very specific. It has a ton of active frames and has a very big hitbox and collision box. Usually if you do something that doesn't hit her out of it from invincibility, it just will push you forward until it does hit.
I've tried it a few times, and it's a pretty weird move. Sometimes it looks like you're completely over the move in the air if she does it at a certain distance and you double jump, but then the collision box shoves you backwards into it as you're coming down anyways. If you dodge, she can just pass through you until the dodge ends and then grabs you during recovery.
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I hope I'm using the framedata programme correctly, ie seeing the right move and reading the data right.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x311/burstofanger/sacchinad1.jpg)
This is her AD. The red box lasts for ONE frame.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x311/burstofanger/sacchinaad1.jpg)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x311/burstofanger/sacchinaad2.jpg)
These two show the red boxes for her AAD. Altogether it's active for 8 frames. If you noticed, both red boxes are slightly SMALLER than the ones in her AD.
Do tell me I saw something wrong...
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For the AAD note how it says N for Air Block, while for the AD there's a - instead.
That means the AAD can actually hit air borne opponents (also being air unblockable), while the AD whiffs against air borne opponents.
So even though the hitbox on the AAD is smaller, it can catch your aerial hitbox when you try to jump out.
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c-miyako dodge (cartwheel) works on satsuki AD, but not AAD. i'm thinking unless you have invincible frames, it'll catch you every time. 236C/214C/22C (upper-body invincibility on 22C) all worked.