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Offline NightFall

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Building combos?
« on: January 12, 2012, 01:59:58 PM »
This is something that I have a slight problem with in fighting games such as this and Street Fighter. I understand how a characters moves work and I can pull them all out with no problems whenever I wish to do so. However, I have trouble creating my own combos from scratch. The main combos I learn to do are ones that I've seen else where. Are there any tips you can give me to help me fix this problem?
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Offline Parapets

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 02:21:57 PM »
1. string some normals together
2. knock opponent into the air
3. jump
4. air combo!
5. okizeme?

Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 02:28:02 PM »
I understand that much. Except for that last part. What is okizeme?
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Offline Sashi

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 03:35:14 PM »
When you make them eat another combo when they get up by setting up with positioning, meaty attacks, traps, etc, to make it hard for them to do anything, including block.
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Offline WYVERN LORD

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 03:52:29 PM »
this is actually not a problem, if you see another player doing something/read some combo on a wiki and it's better than whatever your doing, just do that and don't worry about doing "your own shit" or something, chances are 99.99% someone else has already done it. Since the game's been out a few months most of the characters have optimized combos that aren't gonna get a whole lot better

"okizeme" is doing stuff to an opponent while they're downed in order to mix them up or just try and maintain pressure on them as they rise. After you land a combo or a solid knockdown you will generally want to keep your offensive momentum going

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiE0_7JOPsU#t=28m17s textbook example: see how pciel, after getting a combo and leaving nero on the ground, uses that extra moment to set up a laser in order to continue pressuring him? oki doesn't necessarily have to involve summoning shit or even attacking (ie.e you can safe jump to bait and punish a dragon punch) but its goal is always keep your opponent under pressure
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Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 02:19:33 AM »
I see... Then I guess I was doing that this whole time without even knowing what it was. Thank you for the information.
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Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 03:54:50 AM »
In terms of building your own combos. Basically, you're going to want to test to see what properly chains with what and in what circumstance. Once you figure that out, you compare it to combos that already exist and determine if the change is worth it.

For example:
Ryougi's 2c5bb combos into 214a from just about anywhere. From that I was able to come up with a fullscreen carry using 22c2c2c5bb214a and a a variation of that which ends up as a halfscreen carry into a corner combo.

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 09:17:42 AM »
What Jimmy said about optimizing combos and okizeme is correct and insightful.  There is nothing wrong with using an already optimized combo from videos of better players with your character.  I strongly recommend it.  There should be a couple things you want to consider when making a combo. 

1) How much damage does it do.
2) How far does it carry my opponent across the screen (more importantly to the character.)
3) What kind of okizeme does this combo give me?  (A setup which will force the opponent to block (for example F-Maids with Kohaku front using a Hisui chair assist), a cross up so their input will be reversed minimizing the likely hood of a standard reversal (C-Miyako is very good for this), what can I do to limit their options on wakeup (using a strong command grab so they cannot mash or shield), or the like.
4) How much meter does the combo take.  If a combo takes 200% and does less than 5000 damage most characters, it's probably not worth it unless you're in max, heat, or blood heat.
5) How practical is the starter for this combo and how many ways can I start it?

When you build combos in Melty Blood, you must first consider what moon your using.

Crescent: Understanding the Crescent moon system roots yourself in being able to understand the reverse beat mechanic of the game.  Essentially, In C/H moon you can "reverse beat" in strings or combos into moves you haven't used before in said string/combo.  Reverse beating prorates your damage and lowers the overall damage of the combo, but is often times worth it to make difficult links for strong moves or add a lot of moves to a combo that otherwise wouldn't be able to be linked. 

To elaborate, the move chain system in melty blood works A->B->C->Special Moves.  Within that, it goes standing moves -> crouching moves -> "extra moves".  (Moves that are "extra moves are like 4B, 4C, or 4C, as in nonstanding-noncrouching normals), meaning that the natural chain of occurrence looks something like 5A 2A 5B 2B 5C 2C 3C Aerial combos, assuming all those moves can connect on hit (this depends on your character.) 

Reverse beating allows you to "go back".  This is arbitrary, but, if you do a C move but then are close enough to hit a 5B, doing 2C -> 5B would be a "reverse beat".  Thus, you can then go 2C *5B* 2B 5C 3C j. BC j.BC Air Throw all at the cost of that one single reverse beat.  If you couldn't reverse beat, you'd have to do something like 2C 3C j.BC j.BC Air Throw.  Generally a combo with more normal hits will yield more damage, so in this situation you'd have to compare the likelihood of hitting these combos, the damages, and the other categories I listed at the start of this post to see which is more "optimal." 

Half:  Half moon is very unique in that each character gets a 6AA dial which acts different than A-moves in the combo chain.  This is not my area of expertise, but, the 6AA is a special move that acts a B and C move in the combo chain if I recall correctly.  Half moon can also reverse beat.  Many characters in this moon can also whiff 2A or moves slightly in their combos to reset their move chain mid-combo (though this should also be possible in crescent moon and full moon, it is not nearly as common) Meaning, they will actually do moves that link in combo but because they whiffed 2A or walked, they can use any move again in combo because their combo chain was cancelled (even though they are still comboing their opponent).  This isn't quite my specialty, so you'd best ask a half moon player more about this. 

Full: The full moon combo system is completely different from Half/Crescent moon.  Full moon cannot reverse beat whatsoever, meaning not only can they not go back from C to B or A moves, but they cannot go from crouching moves to standing moves, extra moves to normal moves, or special moves to normal moves.  Thus full moon moves overall do more damage to compensate for the lack of more moves used in combo.  Full moon mechanics follow the strict A->B->C chain akin to many other fighters today.  Full moon does occasionally have loops (such as F-Wara's ground loop) which he resets his move chain by walking, but it's rare.  It's the most strict move chain system, but this also makes it the easiest to use/learn/make combos for.

In all moons, when you jump it resets your move chain which is why most combos do j.(A)BC j.(A)BC Air Throw to end a combo in general.  Most times people omit the A because it can be dramatically harder to hit for minimal damage.  However, for a character like H-Mech, j.AAC j.AAC is much easier than j.BC.  Of course, some characters have some strange special moves or charge moves that make it more advantageous to do other aerial combos or enders as per the guidelines above (usually for extra damage, corner carry, or okizeme).  Some characters even have enough hitstun on their air moves to land and then re-jump in their combos.  Re-jumping resets their move chain and their amount of jumps so they can even do an aerial again. 

And admist all this, in this version(v1.07) and v1.05 of the game OTG relaunch exists.  This means some moves carry a property to relaunch your opponent from an untech-able state.  Most 2C's in the game and some special moves induce untech-able state (also called hard knockdown - meaning they hit the ground and can't tech), and you can relaunch them with special moves or otherwise to continue your combo.  These combos are deadly because they almost always carry you to the corner for corner pressure and add a lot to a character.
 
Overall, the combo system in melty blood is very loose and it is one of the more enjoyable parts of the game.  Knowing your character's moves well enough to hit confirm strange hits and link into combos you've never done before can be thrilling.  Having the skill to confirm these hits quickly (especially off non-counter hits) will make you a much better player. 

I believe a very good character for learning about the combo system in the game is Sion, if you want to experiment more yourself.
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Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 02:24:21 PM »
Thank you all for the vast amount of information. I will definitely put this all to use. I have one question however. What would the "purpose" of each moon style be?
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 03:11:28 PM »
Thank you all for the vast amount of information. I will definitely put this all to use. I have one question however. What would the "purpose" of each moon style be?
I think they put moon styles in b/c of JP tourney rules. Char Lock. And it was to help with bad match-ups. So in MBAC if char x vs char y was a 4/6 match-up, you just had to deal with it. But with moon styles, you might have different tools to help even the match-up. But I don't really know for sure. It's just my guess.

Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 03:39:04 PM »
Well that is a logical explanation for why they are in the game. However, that dosn't answer my question entirely. I would like to know what each moon style is supposed to be used for.
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2012, 04:10:16 PM »
I would like to know what each moon style is supposed to be used for.
I'm not sure that this is the right question to be asking, nor the proper way to think about the moon styles in general. (That is unless you mean for Roa specifically.)
 It's not so much that H-Moon is used for 'this' and F-Moon is used for 'that'. It really depends on the char as to how you use their moons. I think there is room for personal play styles too. The only thing that stays the same between all the moons and all the chars is meter mechanics, and some other general moon specifics.
You might want to ask in the char thread for a specific char what their moons styles are for, and how to use them, or why to use one over the other.

Offline Numakie

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2012, 05:27:51 PM »
I would like to know what each moon style is supposed to be used for.
I'm not sure that this is the right question to be asking, nor the proper way to think about the moon styles in general. (That is unless you mean for Roa specifically.)
 It's not so much that H-Moon is used for 'this' and F-Moon is used for 'that'. It really depends on the char as to how you use their moons. I think there is room for personal play styles too. The only thing that stays the same between all the moons and all the chars is meter mechanics, and some other general moon specifics.
You might want to ask in the char thread for a specific char what their moons styles are for, and how to use them, or why to use one over the other.

There are some moon specific things to take note of at least.  This is what I find is general for each moon style: (there are move obviously.

Cresent

+ Lots of meter to burn, especially when you get 300% meter.
+ Post Heat gives 200 meter back (100 after a Arc Drive)
+ Access to heat mode at any time to heal.
+ Access to Reverse beats
+ Has EX Shield and Shield
- Slow healing in Heat mode.
- Regular Shield = special move cancel only

Half
+ Best Shield bunker in the game
+ Faster healing then Cresent in Heat.
+ Auto Burst in Heat mode.
+ 6AAA combos
+ EX Shield with Auto counter
+ Reverse Beats. Yay
- No regular shield
- Only 200 Meter to work with (can't use EX moves excessively)
- Shield Bunker costs 100 Meter

Full
+ Normals typically recover faster.
+ Regular Shield with 236D follow up.
+ Can Charge meter any time
+ Instant Health recover via Blood Heat & Initiate Heat
+ Initiate Heat = Instant Health recovery and "Roman Cancels"
- No Reverse Beats.
- Can't air dash during air combos. (Need to IAD)
- After Heat mode = 100 meter only, 0 if you use an Arc Drive
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Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2012, 06:34:04 PM »
Well, what I meant by how a moon style "should" be used was this. I wanted to know if the normals and moves a certain style had gave it a strategy. At least, I believe that's the word for it. Ex: Pressure, Guard Breaking, etc.
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Offline Komidol

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2012, 06:41:40 PM »
There's certain things you can do to abuse the mechanics of each move style to ascertain a certain style of play (for example, using shield bunker to play H-moon with Rushdown, or using the health clutch gained from instantly regaining all your health in Full moon for a strong defensive game), but ultimately your question doesn't make any sense.  Even though the essence of each character exists in each moon style of the character, each character is completely different in every moon style.  They have different moves, meter management, and specials. 

It's not a subset of a character.  A lot of players only specifically specialize in one moon of one character. 
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Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 06:54:01 PM »
I see... I understand what you're saying.
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 08:36:49 PM »
Even though the essence of each character exists in each moon style of the character, each character is completely different in every moon style.  They have different moves, meter management, and specials. 

It's not a subset of a character.  A lot of players only specifically specialize in one moon of one character. 

Yeah, I see it like this. All the chars have a C, H and F style. But each chars H style does not play the same way. There is not a set way to play an H-Moon char, just because it's H-Moon. There are just too many differences between all the H-Moon char's move sets for that. Like H-Mech is close to pure zoning while H-VSion is like pure rushdown.

Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2012, 09:41:52 AM »
This is true. 
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Offline Pfhor

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2012, 10:15:26 PM »
Crescent: Understanding the Crescent moon system roots yourself in being able to understand the reverse beat mechanic of the game.  Essentially, In C/H moon you can "reverse beat" in strings or combos into moves you haven't used before in said string/combo.  Reverse beating prorates your damage and lowers the overall damage of the combo, but is often times worth it to make difficult links for strong moves or add a lot of moves to a combo that otherwise wouldn't be able to be linked.

The idea that reverse beat's "lowers the overall damage of your combo" is a common misconception. In truth it is not that simple, reverse beating simply adds 22.5% to a separate counter called the "correctional value". This value replaces whatever the proration of your combo is, but it does not add to it. So if your proration is already less than 77.5, like say, starting a combo with Nanaya's 5a (which prorates 75%) your combo is going to do the same damage regardless of 1 reverse beat beforehand. The correctional value ticks down rapidly after you reverse beat (doing A attacks add fractions of percents and delay it's descent), but if you do 2 rapidly and increase the correctional value to 45% (the maximum value possible) that's when your damage will most likely get lower.

Offline NightFall

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Re: Building combos?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2012, 01:25:37 PM »
I see. This game has a more in-depth combo system than I previously thought. Thank you for this information.
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