Melty Bread Forums
Atlas Academy => Kohaku's Magical Garage => : Lord Knight February 18, 2010, 07:50:55 PM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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I was playing SF4 the other day and was just amazed at how many and how prevalent OS is in that game, and was thinking why don't we talk about MB OS more. Most of the characters (well, maybe a couple) have their own individual ones, but I'm going to cover a couple that works with a large part of the cast.
OS Bunker Throw
Technically this works with anyone, but it's best and easiest with H moon. You input it like this:
-----5A6EE
On block, it will just do the universal H moon 1-2-3 series. But if they bunker, you will just throw it. A practical application of this would be using some move that kept them in blockstun for a long time. For example:
-----5B 5C 5A6EE
Most 5C's tend to have large amounts of blockstun, which makes it a good way to bait bunkers. One thing to keep in mind is that the 3rd hit of the A series is not normal cancellable on block, so if you don't have a special move that is somewhat safe on block, it makes this string a little bit weaker.
OS Shield/Throw Tech
This works with anyone. You input it like this:
-----1A+D
This will shield any A move or low move, or will tech a throw. If they don't throw, it will just look like you did a low shield. This OS is extremely weak against command grab characters.
OS shield counters
This OS is especially good against H moon, since on shield they auto counter, but does work on F moon if they decide to shield counter after a held shield. There are many ways to do this OS, so I'll just give an example:
-----5B [7] 5C 5A
Basically, you do a string that keeps them in blockstun once you start (like the throw bunker OS). However, you hold 7 after the first move. If you get shielded, you will jump and block the move. However, don't think small with this one! If you have a character that has a normal that is cancellable on the last frame (as in, delay the next normal as late as possible), this makes your blockstrings way stronger against shield. For example, KohakuH can do:
-----2B(2) [7] 5C
If you delay the 5C and they shield that, you will still jump and block the shield counter. Any character that has a normal that can be delayed into another normal that late can do this.
OS Backstep
Although this tends to be character specific, most of the cast has an OS that punishes hopping backsteps and sliding backsteps. You input it like this:
-----2A 2C
If they just block, your string starts as 2A 2C. If the 2A whiffs (because they backstep), you get them with 2C and confirm with a combo. Some players like adding an extra move that gets the opponent to the right height to confirm to an easy aerial. For example, with WarcC, a common anti-backstep string would be:
-----2A 2C 5B
On block, you just do 2A 6C 5C, then go into 5A or whatever normal you want, but when 2A whiffs, 2C 5B will catch them and set them up for an easy air combo. Most characters have a blockstring that does something like this, but the inputs can vary. Generally though, you can count on 2A 2C doing a decent job of this, especially if 2C is a sweep.
Mixup Easy Confirm
This is definitely character specific, but I felt like it was worth mentioning. Basically, whatever mixup you do, you create a blockstring after it that starts with your optimal combo starter. For example with WarcC you can do:
-----{mixup}5B 5C
You can delay 5C pretty late, so on hit you do 6C 2B 2C into whatever, and on block you do 5A and continue pressure.
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I knew all these but glad you did a write up.
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Input 8, d, X after every move in a block string against h-moon with heat. If your move hits you shield the autospark, if it doesn't you do X. Only works with moves that are jump cancelable on hit and not on block.
Input 5a6e, X, uses are either with a character that has a 5a that whiffs a crouching opponent, you'll get 5a6a if they're standing, and a whiff to grab if they're crouching. For characters with a lower 5a it's used when you want to do a whiff 5a into grab but if you mess up you'll get a decent blockstring out of it, or combo if you're lucky. Make X whatever works as a combo/blockstring.
In regards to easy mixup confirm, you can do that at any time. Whenever you do a move that might hit or might be blocked do something that works as both a combo and a blockstring. Another example of this is dash in 5a to catch a jumper, since the 5a is air unblockable it will hit if you guess right, but hit confirming off of this isn't easy so you do another move which will both combo to give you more confirm time, but also work as a block string for when it's blocked. This type of thing isn't really an option select, it's just a single move that covers multiple things. It's like calling a reversal super an option select because it'll beat almost anything except for block.
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I didn't really call it an option select, I just put it there because a lot of people don't do it and they should.
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Sorry to sound like an idiot, but what would Option Select mean? Does that refer to reactions to certain situations?
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An option select is essentially a method of countering multiple possible situations that may arise with one command/set of commands; generally leading to different results depending on what your opponent does. They make life easier by reducing the amount of guesswork you have to do on the fly.
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You input two (or more) commands so that only one will come out based on what your opponent does.
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I appreciate the writeup.
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I hope I wrote these down right....if I'm wrong please correct me (lk, zar, etc)
OS Heat Punish
---IAD (air normal of choice)/Safe jump (air normal of choice) > 5[d] (the entire duration of when you're in the air) > land > ground normal of choice
For example with F-Ciel you would do a IAD j.c > 5[d] > 5b
If they don't heat they will block the j.c, (the game will eat the 5[d] input) and when you land you'll do a 5b. If they do heat, your j.c will whiff, when you land you'll immediately be holding shield (the game will eat the 5b input) and you'll normal shield the activation. It gives you plenty of time to punish with a max damage combo afterward, this OS obviously does not work if you're using H-moon.
How to "punish" the OS:
-Ground dodge
-Backdash
-Wakeup bunker
-Probably a lot more stuff can beat it as well
OS Shield counter with airdodge (Works only on H-moon and F-moon)
---Air normal of choice > j.c2e [REQUIRES 50% METER]
For example with Warakia, you would do j.b > j.c2e
If they block it, nothing will happen and you can just continue pressure afterwards
If they shield it, you will immediately cancel the j.b into a air dodge avoiding the shield counter.
This is EXTREMELY useful for when you don't have an extra jump left for the other shield counter OS (jump back block).
Further clarification, OS airdodge DOES work on crescent shield, however if they do ex shield > 5A you're fucked, but if they do a 1hit thing like Sacchin 5[D] > 22A or something you will dodge it and can punish.
Also, most/probably almost ALL chars can punish the recovery of shield counter with falling jA, it just takes practice.
EDIT: On another note, it doesn't matter whether your j.C actually hits them or not. In ehrik's example he did iad jB > jC2E with Warakia. J.C will most definitely whiff, however if j.B is blocked it'll just appear like j.C whiffs really close to the ground. If j.B gets shielded however he will airdodge. This applies to chars like Koha/Tohno etc. Characters where j.B > j.C will hit, the j.C will come out.
How to "punish" the OS:
-H-moon will always lose to it
-F-moon can delay shield counter and land a CH
someone should sticky this thread D:
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OS Shield counter with airdodge (Works only on H-moon and F-moon)
---Air normal of choice > j.c2e [REQUIRES 50% METER]
For example with Warakia, you would do j.b > j.c2e
If they block it, nothing will happen and you can just continue pressure afterwards
If they shield it, you will immediately cancel the j.b into a air dodge avoiding the shield counter.
This is EXTREMELY useful for when you don't have an extra jump left for the other shield counter OS (jump back block).
THIS DOES NOT WORK AGAINST C-MOON EX SHIELDS, ex shield 5a will counter hit you 100%. (In arcade it used to beat C-moon Ex-shields, but not anymore because of increased startup on air-dodge)
Actually, H-moon can cancel a blocked aerial move into dodge (for some amount of meter). So I'm pretty sure you'll end up air dodging regardless.
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If you do it properly, airdodge won't come out unless you hit them or they do shield.
Further clarification, OS airdodge DOES work on crescent shield, however if they do ex shield > 5A you're fucked, but if they do a 1hit thing like Sacchin 5[D] > 22A or something you will dodge it and can punish.
Also, most/probably almost ALL chars can punish the recovery of shield counter with falling jA, it just takes practice.
EDIT: On another note, it doesn't matter whether your j.C actually hits them or not. In ehrik's example he did iad jB > jC2E with Warakia. J.C will most definitely whiff, however if j.B is blocked it'll just appear like j.C whiffs really close to the ground. If j.B gets shielded however he will airdodge. This applies to chars like Koha/Tohno etc. Characters where j.B > j.C will hit, the j.C will come out.
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Full moon anti-heat/shield counter OS
2a(meaty) 5[d] [7] 5a
Why it works - You can shield after 2a whiff earlier than you can if it hits or it gets blocked so 5[d] will never come out in either of those situations. So if they go for shield counter you get [7] and if they just block you'll get 5a.
What it loses to - Crescent moon ex shield 2a, mashing(you get jump, though you can always omit [7] and lose to shield counters instead), backdash, fast reversals. Theoretically, it may be possible to beat all reversals if your meaty 2a is within 3-4 frames(whatever is fastest reversal speed, since I'm not sure offhand) of the point where you can cancel it into shield but if it is it requires very tight timing to ensure that the 2a will always be meaty so you don't get 5[d] whiff but that it's not too late that you get hit by the reversal.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8l97pyWpCU
A sample to wet your whistle with (take that however you feel is "right"). :V
Edit:
lol "hatemaster" rank. I'm honored. If any mods are reading this, could I get angryfaces as icon w/ hate title? >:(
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lol "hatemaster" rank. I'm honored. If any mods are reading this, could I get angryfaces as icon w/ hate title? >:(
You noticed NOW? I did that like 4 days ago.
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Just with some updates and tweaks on the OS's listed:
For the anti-shield OS LK has listed, anti-shield counter OS's against H/F moon, the input is actually
5B 5C 7~[1]
If you just hold 7, you'll jump even on hit, which is what you don't want. The trick behind this OS is that you input the 7 quickly during the startup of the C attack, and then quickly go down on [1] in time before the active frames of the C attack come out, so you 'stand in place' if it is blocked or hit.
Everyone also has a pretty easy way to counter Heats on deep jump-ins, the input is as follows:
JC 4A+B~5B
What happens here is that since no character can airbackdash on hit or block, you do a deep jump and input the backdash right before you hit the ground. If your jump-in whiffs, you get a backdash.
For baiting circuit/auto-sparks, this OS works pretty well.
2A 2A+D xN
As soon as one of your 2A's whiffs, you will immediately shield. The 2A+D must be input pretty fast though, especially if your character's 2A is relatively slow.
For baiting heats on assumed meaties, the input is:
2A[meaty] 5B+D
The 5B can be replaced with any other normal technically, but 5B is probably optimal, in my opinion. Once again, this works under the same concept as above, such that if your 2A whiffs, the shield comes out.
The general formula for OS's as I can see in MB is either buffer a shield behind a move that will come out on hit, or input some direction such as 7~[1] between the startup of a quick-to-fast sequence to cover shields or the like.
I'm fairly sure you can combine these OS's where you see fit, I will test this OS later, but it should be practical with characters with godlike backdash OS's like Nanaya:
2A 2C 7~[1] 5B
This should effectively cover 2 options on wakeup: Backdashes, and wakeup shields from H/F moon, while leading to good blockstrings that are easily confirmable.
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F-moon also has a pretty easy way to counter Heats on deep jump-ins, the input is as follows:
JC 4A+B~5B
What happens here is that since Fmoon can't airdash cancel on hit or block, you do a deep jump and input the backdash right before you hit the ground. If your jump-in whiffs, you get a backdash.
This works for all moons. No one can cancel an air normal into air backdash on hit or block. F has the further restriction that it can't cancel into airdash forward on hit/block but that doesn't change anything here.
2A 2C+D 7~[1] 5B
I haven't tested the 2C+D part yet, but this should effectively cover 4 options on wakeup: Heat, Autospark/CircuitSpark, Backdashes, and wakeup shields from H/F moon.
This can't work. The reason 2a 2c beats backdash is because the 2a will whiff and then the 2c will punish backdash. The reason 2a 5[d] something or 2aa 5d something beats heat is because the 2a will whiff and then shield comes out. It's not possible to get 2c to come out only when they backdash and shield to come out only when they heat.
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Good info Tonberry, I didn't know that airbackdashes weren't possible on hit or block, but it makes sense now that I think about it.
Also regarding the OS example I had, fucking derp. Derp Derp Derrrrrr
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Suddenly thought of this OS (if this really is an OS) but don't have the means to test if it works right now.
While getting combo'd, mash 4+A+B instead of just mashing buttons. This way, you can mash to reduce damage and in case the enemy does a reset, intentionally or not from misinput, you will backstep and avoid getting hit instead of eating a fresh new combo because a badly timed 2A came out from mashing.
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That would work. You can mash anything while being comboed, but obviously if your opponent catches on they get free resets.
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But if the opponent tries a reset, for example suddenly doing an IAD jC, you will backstep in that small window of time between the enemy's attack and the IAD because you've been mashing 4AB to reduce damage.
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But if the opponent tries a reset, for example suddenly doing an IAD jC, you will backstep in that small window of time between the enemy's attack and the IAD because you've been mashing 4AB to reduce damage.
What Zaelar was trying to point out is that if they know you're doing it they can just reset off a backdash punish.
(pardon me Zaelar if I'm incorrect in that assumption)
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Yeah, that's not really safe and can be blown up pretty hard. That's like mashing D for reducing damage and your opponent drops the combo. It can get blown the fuck up
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I suppose that brings up the question: What is the ideal button (or combination of buttons) to mash to reduce?
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I suppose that brings up the question: What is the ideal button (or combination of buttons) to mash to reduce?
For C-Moon it's obviously 5E.
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Well, if you have the meter to spark that is. It comes out as 5c if you don't.
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Well, if you have the meter to spark that is. It comes out as 5c if you don't.
5E = heat.
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melty blood's most gdlk os:
"YO i dont even play this game."
cover wins AND losses. totally universal.
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You can mash any mashable reversal option for this. Heat probably has the highest chance of being safe if it's not specifically baited. You can also mash heat while holding 1 which means it can be safely done in blockstrings too, whereas going for a backdash or character reversal leaves you with time spent not holding downback.
The simple way to think about when to use this is do it when you think your opponent isn't going to bait it. Always go for it if there's a situation where it can't be baited. Look for the hits in a combo that are more likely to be dropped, such as tightly timed links, delayed hits, or hit-confirms. If you punish your opponent for dropping a hard combo then they may consider doing an easier, less damaging combo which gives you more effective health.
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So basically this isn't a successful OS 'cos it only covers the event in which the opponent can be avoided in that gap of bad timing during a combo and not if the opponent is expecting it. Still, isn't it an okay meterless option if you don't have 100% for C-Moon, and for any other Moon that can't manual Heat for that matter?
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Basically, yes.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3256pAVv0
At around 2:30 you can see Kusanagi doing a run up shield into a throw. I tried things out and figured you can cancel a shield's first frame into a throw. The notation is 6d~ad, you generally want to p-link this to get it to work.
The actual first frame of the shield does come out so you can parry for 1 frame and then throw. But if there is nothing to parry on that 1 frame it goes into the throw anyway. So basicly, if you parry something you get a throw, if nothing hits the 1 frame parry you still get a throw, this can be used for say parrying a meaty into a throw or dash up throw and if they poke you with something the 1f parry might parry it anyways. Of course if the move is not meaty or hit the 1f you'll probably get blown the fuck up.
Also discovered is that you can 3d 6ad which instead crouch parries for 1 frame and then throws parry or or no parry.
Were still experimenting what you can cancel the 1f shield into.
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O.k to actually further elaborate on what is going on there.
6d~ad - the very first frame of shield cancels into throw NO MATTER WHAT as long as the throw input comes out on the next frame. This is presumably because of input leniancy in button combinations, and 5a works the same way, 6a~ad cancels will cancel the startup of 5a into a throw. You could also do this with 4d~ad
So basically you're kara canceling shield into throw.
This is what lets H-Moon and F-Moon do shields into throws.
You can test this yourself and visually see that the first frame of a shield will come out before your throw.
You can also do this off low shield with either 1 2 or 3 into 6 or 4 ad but this is slightly harder to do a low shield into the throw.
What this actually means in application - on wakeup doing this os you can actually reversal this and it will shield then throw against meaties, and if they are not attacking you, you will just throw them.
This loses to mistimed meaties or just being out of range of the throw, or just wrong shielding.
Note that this particular "feature" seems to include other macros such as dashing or dodging, but for practical application it doesn't seem as usable.
EDIT: I got blown up by adviceowl's edit. :V
Other stuff: Kara throws are actually legit. Im seraching for somem oves that get good benefit from it though. So far Fryougi 5c seems the best and increases her throw range significantly.
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Expanding on this, can someone test if 214D~4ABC does what I think it does?
Since :
*4D~4AB is possible and results in 1f shield -> backdash
*214ABC after shielding does 214C if you can't heat
*214ABC without shielding backdashes
I think that 214D~4ABC does a 1f shield -> backdash os with the exception that you're going into your 214 C on a successful shield. I can't confirm that at the moment since I haven't got my stick here and I can't do the input on keyboard.
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Wouldn't that just bunker?
EDIT: Yeah, 214D~AD fails to throw, so I'm assuming it's the same for 214D~ABC.
(http://i.imgur.com/ckvkE.png)
This fails.
(http://i.imgur.com/wy78T.png)
This works.
So probably the bunker can't be canceled like the shield.
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Ok. I wasn't sure about the bunker being not cancellable, thanks.
How about 21D~4ABC?
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These ideas are kinda nice but I really can't see that OS being useful at all
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I want to test it, but going from 1D to 4ABC in one frame is hard and my execution is terrible. Timing the shield is hard enough. I don't think anyone can do this reliably.
EDIT: By the way, I just realized I didn't need to test the 214D~ABC thing, 'cause if that worked, baracancels would work.
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EDIT: By the way, I just realized I didn't need to test the 214D~ABC thing, 'cause if that worked, baracancels would work.
R.I.P. bara orb