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Author Topic: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling  (Read 27195 times)

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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2007, 02:02:15 AM »
Whoever called 2c(block)5a(whiff) whiff canceling in the first place is an idiot.  You are canceling into a whiff, not canceling a whiff.  Like Roll canceling, you cancel a roll with a special in cvs2.  Having a specific name for this reverse beat is a good idea, but calling it a reverse beat isn't wrong.  Its like calling 2a5c a cancel would be wrong because it's a chain; while it is a chain, it is also a cancel; all chains are cancels by definition.

I'd suggest rba and wrba, or just ra/wra, standing for (whiff) reverse beat A.  It's to describe ending a chain with an A for faster recovery.  It doesn't describe using A's normally in a chain, like for example a combo of 2abc5ab j. whatever wouldn't be called rba.

Calling canceling a whiffed 5a into shield is an excellent example of something to call whiff canceling.

Meh, Chibi pretty much said everything I told him already.

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Offline Qaenyin

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2007, 08:40:46 AM »
Actually you're canceling via a whiff, therefore the cancel, is a whiff cancel.  Because the whole point of the cancel is the whiff(and if you didn't whiff, it wouldn't be a whiff cancel anymore.  See where I'm going with this?).

Anyways, to summarize:

Whiff cancel:Canceling into a fast recovery move(usually 5A) that does NOT hit your opponent, in order to reset the attacks you can use(since you can only use each attack once per combo.  So, say, nanaya 2C, whiff 5A, 2C again, but if the 5A did NOT whiff, you couldnt use the second 2C since you already did a 2C in that combo.)

Jab cancel:Canceling a slow recovery move's recovery frames, by canceling into a jab(5A/2A).  Since the point is to cancel the recovery frames to make an attack safe, and not necessarily to reset the combo completely, the jab doesn't have to whiff.  So, for example, 2C 2A with nanaya, which lets you block immediately after the 2A since it recovers fast.  If you just did 2C someone could try to punish the 2C during it's recovery frames, but since you jab canceled with 2A, you can block their punish and punish back.

Reverse Beat:Going backwards in order of attacks in terms of A, B, C.  For example, canceling 5C into 5B or 5A are both reverse beats.  Canceling 5B into 5A is a reverse beat, canceling 5B into 5C is not.  This does not apply to specials(canceling 5C into 236B or 236A would NOT cause a reverse beat).  Blocked attacks, and attacks that would hit your opponent, are eligible for reverse beats.  That includes attacks that WOULD have hit your opponent, but were canceled before they could(for example, j.C canceled into j.A, but you land before the j.A finishes coming out, making the j.A not hit your opponent.  But since it would have, you still get a reverse beat penalty).

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2007, 09:34:39 AM »
Quote
Actually you're canceling via a whiff, therefore the cancel, is a whiff cancel.  Because the whole point of the cancel is the whiff(and if you didn't whiff, it wouldn't be a whiff cancel anymore.  See where I'm going with this?).

No, you're canceling via REVERSE BEAT, the 5A whiffing is just the result of you not hitting the opponent. Doing 2C5A is still reverse beat. Telling someone to RB a 5A from 2B is a lot easier to understand then telling them to 'whiff or jab cancel' when the latter are two other 'techniques' that simply fall under reverse beats.

That's like calling Hsienko's s.FK in Darkstalkers a whiff cancel, because you end most of your chains that way to keep up your momentum / space and not be stuck there after a block string or to move around after a combo. That's not a whiff cancel at all, it's simply a way to use the chains in DS to her advantage. The same can be said here for doing 5A from 2C or 2B or whatever. It's using RB's to your advantage.

Here, Lei-lei's does it at 0:12 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJDF7A3sUZs

:P
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 09:39:20 AM by Master Chibi »
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Offline KomagPHL

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2007, 02:36:47 PM »
how about instead of calling it whiff cancel or jab cancel, let's just call it whiff reset. reverse beat can be just for combo's. :blah:

Offline Zaelar

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2007, 03:46:06 PM »
It's canceled via a chain.  It also being a reverse beat is a coincidence.  Just because it is a reverse beat doesn't mean there can't be another name to describe this specific situation of a reverse beat.

Reverse beats don't have to connect at all.  They can also be a special canceled into a normal.

Chain = A normal canceled into a normal.
Reverse beat = A stronger strength move canceled into a weaker one, strength in order of strongest to weakest: Special, C, B, A.(some other parts to this, but this covers most of them).

In MB as long as you keep canceling *any* attacks you can't do the same move twice.  You need to completely recover to do a move again, and this applies to every move, not just normals.  I suggest using the term Cancel Chain to describe this behavior.  I think there might be a couple moves that are exempt from this but I might be imagining things.

Quote
Jab cancel:Canceling a slow recovery move's recovery frames, by canceling into a jab(5A/2A).  Since the point is to cancel the recovery frames to make an attack safe, and not necessarily to reset the combo completely, the jab doesn't have to whiff.  So, for example, 2C 2A with nanaya, which lets you block immediately after the 2A since it recovers fast.  If you just did 2C someone could try to punish the 2C during it's recovery frames, but since you jab canceled with 2A, you can block their punish and punish back.

While the jab doesn't have to whiff, it can.  This is fine.

Quote
Whiff cancel:Canceling into a fast recovery move(usually 5A) that does NOT hit your opponent, in order to reset the attacks you can use(since you can only use each attack once per combo.  So, say, nanaya 2C, whiff 5A, 2C again, but if the 5A did NOT whiff, you couldnt use the second 2C since you already did a 2C in that combo.)

Many things wrong.  Firstly, the name whiff cancel implies the canceling of a whiff, which is not happening.  Second, you don't need to whiff a move to reset a chain.  You could do 2c5a, 2c for 3 hits, assuming there is enough hit stun and positioning is good(which it isn't in this example, but there are some out there, I believe Len has one).  Third, even if the 5a whiffs, it is still cancelable and can continue the chain.

The Leilei example in Chibi's link is the exact same thing as a Jab cancel...except it wasn't with a jab.  Same idea, same strategy, just a different button.

Offline Qaenyin

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2007, 04:29:09 PM »
Quote
Jab cancel:Canceling a slow recovery move's recovery frames, by canceling into a jab(5A/2A).  Since the point is to cancel the recovery frames to make an attack safe, and not necessarily to reset the combo completely, the jab doesn't have to whiff.  So, for example, 2C 2A with nanaya, which lets you block immediately after the 2A since it recovers fast.  If you just did 2C someone could try to punish the 2C during it's recovery frames, but since you jab canceled with 2A, you can block their punish and punish back.

While the jab doesn't have to whiff, it can.  This is fine.

Yes, I realize that.  My point was that it can whiff, or not whiff, and whether it does or not doesnt change it being a jab cancel.

Quote
Quote
Whiff cancel:Canceling into a fast recovery move(usually 5A) that does NOT hit your opponent, in order to reset the attacks you can use(since you can only use each attack once per combo.  So, say, nanaya 2C, whiff 5A, 2C again, but if the 5A did NOT whiff, you couldnt use the second 2C since you already did a 2C in that combo.)

Many things wrong.  Firstly, the name whiff cancel implies the canceling of a whiff, which is not happening.  Second, you don't need to whiff a move to reset a chain.  You could do 2c5a, 2c for 3 hits, assuming there is enough hit stun and positioning is good(which it isn't in this example, but there are some out there, I believe Len has one).  Third, even if the 5a whiffs, it is still cancelable and can continue the chain.

The Leilei example in Chibi's link is the exact same thing as a Jab cancel...except it wasn't with a jab.  Same idea, same strategy, just a different button.

My point was generally the reason someone would whiff cancel would be either to reset the chain(since it recovers the fastest it allows the shortest gap possible between chains), or, also(sorry I forgot to mention this other reason), to reset proration(also resetting the chain, I suppose.)

Mostly I was just pointing out that whiff cancels mean whiffing an attack, and jab cancels mean canceling with a jab, and that reverse beats are a mechanic and not a move.  Since people in this thread seem to be often thinking that all 3 of the above are exactly the same thing(which they are most certainly not, though a whiff cancel is generally both a jab cancel and a reverse beat, the opposite is not also necessarily true).

Offline linalys

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2007, 04:47:22 PM »
In MB as long as you keep canceling *any* attacks you can't do the same move twice. 

......

Second, you don't need to whiff a move to reset a chain.  You could do 2c5a, 2c for 3 hits, assuming there is enough hit stun and positioning is good(which it isn't in this example, but there are some out there, I believe Len has one).  Third, even if the 5a whiffs, it is still cancelable and can continue the chain.


Huh?  You can't use the same move twice, but you can do 2c 5a 2c for a 3 hit combo? 

Could you possibly mean 2a 5a 2a? 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 04:50:28 PM by linalys »
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2007, 07:04:02 PM »
Huh?  You can't use the same move twice, but you can do 2c 5a 2c for a 3 hit combo? 

Could you possibly mean 2a 5a 2a? 

2c5a, 2c: Means you LINK a 2c after the 5a, it isn't a cancel(/chain).  I can't think of anyone who can actually make this combo, but you can do this on block.  Its the same concept as 2c5a wait 30 seconds then do another 2c.

Quote
My point was generally the reason someone would whiff cancel would be either to reset the chain(since it recovers the fastest it allows the shortest gap possible between chains), or, also(sorry I forgot to mention this other reason), to reset proration(also resetting the chain, I suppose.)

Whiffing a move doesn't do either.  You could whiff a move to reset a chain, but it isn't necessary as in the previous example I gave.  Reverse beat causes proration, and I have no idea what made you think this would reset it.  The term is usually used in the context of what you call jab canceling, it is just to shorten recovery.  The term whiff canceling is a horrible name and should be discarded, at least for this purpose.  Whiff canceling should be used to describe A's being canceled on whiff, if even that as it isn't necessary.

Offline Arlieth Tralare

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2007, 07:57:44 PM »
Because "Reverse Beat" occurs even on a whiff (and the subsequent penalty thereof), I say it's still considered a Reverse Beat. Done inside a combo without breaking the chain is mostly for combo purposes only, whereas done outside a combo has tactical ramifications, which is what's being discussed here.

PS: The only Whiff Cancel that I'm aware of is Ciel's EX flash kick -> another EX. This is important if the EX flash kick is shielded or dodged.
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2007, 01:29:18 AM »
Ciel's j. 236c is also cancelable on whiff after landing(unless it was removed, its mostly useless and I haven't tested it in b2 yet).  I think it was featured in a video somewhere.  There are a lot of moves cancelable on whiff, like non-standard chains(like Ciel's 5cc, 2cc, etc.) as well as standard A attacks.  Just to save Chibi a post Hisui's 623b is cancelable into 623c on whiff as well.

We have been getting a tad off topic, so lets refine what we are talking about as: Chaining a move with longer recovery into one with less recovery to make it safer.  Most of the time this is done with 5a but it can be done with other normals as well.  This will almost always incur a reverse beat, but isn't a requirement.  The move(s) can either whiff, be blocked, or hit.

Examples of what is:
(all examples can have anything before it, whether it be a 100 move block string or nothing at all)
2c5a, Using the 5a to shorten the recovery on this string.
2c5b, Same thing, only using a 5b instead of 5a.
2a5b, Same thing, only using the 5b to shorten recovery on the 2a.(obviously no actual in game examples where this would be used, but if it could this would fit the description)
All three can have either move whiff, block, or hit.

Examples of what is not:
2c5a5c, Standard reverse beat chain followed by another move in the chain.
2c5a, 2c, a combo.  The 5a(whiffed) is used to shorten the recovery of 2c so you can combo a second one.  Shortening recovery for combo purposes isn't included in this(although it could be changed to be included).  If the 5a doesn't whiff it is just a standard link combo with some unrelated technical workings.
2c, 5a.  This is just a 2c linked into a 5a, no canceling is being done.
2c5a, the 2c is canceled late into a whiff 5a, to the point where 5a's total frames are greater than the remaining frames of the 2c.(IE if 2c will recovery in 5 frames, at which point you cancel into 5a(whiff) which takes 10 frames, you are putting yourself into 5 extra frames of recovery)
2c5ad, The 5a(whiff) cancels the recovery of 2c, which may be one, but the 5a is then canceled into a shield, which while may make it safer against some things, doesn't fit the description.  If the shield was done in reaction to something then the 5a is still one.

As for names, whiff canceling is out.  Whiffing something has nothing to do with anything, it is just something that could happen.   Jab canceling, while I don't like it, is at least somewhat appropriate.  Something that focuses on the recovery aspect is what we're looking for, and jabs are typically good with recovery.  My original suggestion of reverse beat a's doesn't work with this.

Offline Sledeau

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2007, 02:26:23 AM »
Its always been called whiff cancelling, let's keep calling it whiff cancelling.

Offline mrthefter

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2007, 10:29:27 AM »
It's a linguistics issue.

Whiff is the noun.
Cancel is the verb.

The verb acts on the noun, so cancel the whiff.

It may also be argued that:

Whiff is a verb.
Cancel is a noun.

In this case, the cancel is a whiff.

Generally, in English, the noun comes before the verb, so readers will typically take the former definition rather than the latter.

My suggestion is to call it "Whiffed Cancel." Then there is no confusion as to which word is the verb, which word is the noun.
If you take it as it is in the title, "Whiff Canceling," then it will certainly imply that you are canceling the whiff.
"Whiffing Cancel" is too cumbersome, so I won't suggest it
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 02:06:27 PM by mrthefter »

Offline Zaelar

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2007, 02:25:35 PM »
Whiffing the move has nothing to do with it.  The point is to cancel recovery of a punishable move into a nonpunishable one, whether it whiffs or not is irrelevant.

Offline mrthefter

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Re: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2007, 06:48:52 PM »
Good point.
In other words, it really doesn't matter if 5A hits, misses or is blocked, you still get your recovery time reduced