Melty Bread Forums
Atlas Academy => Kohaku's Magical Garage => : Arlieth Tralare February 23, 2007, 02:45:37 PM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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Introduction
For those of you unfamiliar with Roll Cancelling or Kara Cancelling, these techniques exploit gaps between command inputs that are typically 2-3 frames wide, the amount of time that programmers allowed for two separate button presses to be counted simultaneously. While Melty Blood has extremely strict timing for throws (1f discrepancy), it has a technique that exploits the Shield Bunker (aka 'Alpha Counter' or 'Dead Angle Attack') into a command or special. This is known as Bara Cancelling. It may be easier to think of it as Shield Bunker Kara Cancelling.
Shield Bunker Mechanics
Shield Bunkers are done by performing a 214+D (QCB+D) while in blockstun. This requires 50% meter and has an extremely long startup (+30f), but may also carry clash frames (auto-parry). It may do little to average damage, but often has special properties such as wall-slamming.
Exploiting the Bara Cancel
To perform a Bara Cancel, an additional input must be introduced between or before the 214(QCB) and D. To give an example, because of Melty Blood's loose input rules, this command overlaps with 63214(HCB)+C and 214+C, which is a valid EX move for most characters, especially Nero Chaos. If Nero performs a 63214+D,C, as long as the C is pressed within the valid Bara Cancel frame window, Nero will instantly recover out of blockstun with his EX Phantom (that freaky claw guy) attack. Furthermore, on a successful Bara Cancel, because the Shield Bunker never activated, there is no 50% meter cost associated with it. However, if the Bara Cancel attempt is unsuccessful and the Shield Bunker does come out, the player must pay the 50% meter cost of the Shield Bunker. There are many other ways to sneak input commands before the Bara Cancel is attempted (i.e.: 2141236+D,C for a Bara Cancelled Arc-Drive), and with ver.B, Bara Cancelled Throws are also made simple through use of the E button.
A video by Linalys demonstrating this technique is available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNH5MGsXZgY
Some characters have extremely useful moves that benefit from Bara Cancelling, which should be discussed in this topic.
Why can't I Bara Cancel this attack?
There is one other property that Bara Cancels absolutely require: Hitstop. Hitstop frames are a special window during the impact of an attack where one would typically cancel into other attacks or supers. Hitstop is NOT blockstun. You can think of them as impact or cancel frames. If you are finding yourself performing Shield Bunkers instead of Bunker Cancels, it's because you tried to perform the cancel too late. In short: You MUST activate Bara Cancels during Hitstop.
Because of this, Bara Cancels are best done on attacks with multiple hits. Because of Melty Blood's relaxed rules on block state (once you start blocking, it's hard to accidentally 'unblock' yourself), you can wind up the input for your bara cancel and then execute upon the impact of the next hit. Some moves have obscenely huge hitstop frames- these are the exception rather than the rule though. Rule of Thumb: Activate your Bara Cancel on the attack's impact.
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Advice on practicing bara cancels:
In training mode, pick either V.Sion or Walachia and set them to Attack 1. They will perform their 5C (both of which hit three times, but at different rates), and you should then try to block and bara cancel out of the blockstun. While this is not perfect (as good players will vary their blockstrings and the timing thereof), this will let you learn the timing of the cancel -- how early you can buffer the motion, when you have to hit D, how quickly you have to hit the button after hitting D, etc..
Practice trying to bara cancel each hit of these normals.
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For those stuck in FT, you can do what I did and practice with Shiki's 236c. It lasts FOREVER and the last hit has a fair amount of stun making it relatively easy to practice the cancel. Also note that you can cancel into pretty much anything with a command motion. Throw, dash, super jump, etc.
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i think for AC using Len and doing her 5C is good too cause you can try to bara cancel in between the first 3 initial hit part then Bara cancel before the last 2 hits make it.
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so this basically makes everyobody's supers into baiken counterz eh...cool.
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What about Bara Cancel Superjump? I'd like to know how to perform this before I go into training to practice it.
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To bara super jump I believe you just do 214+C then 9, if I'm not mistaken.
;p
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That sounds ridiculously easy. Is it?
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After you practice it for a bit it might.
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To bara super jump I believe you just do 214+D then 9, if I'm not mistaken.
;p
Fixed it for you~
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That sounds ridiculously easy. Is it?
...yes...very much so. Ex knives/5cc + Zar = Sad ciel...everyone need to learn this because im tired of seeing ppl try to chip red life and/or burn the opponents regen ::).
@ Linalys:
make a new bara vid...with bara sj's, dashes, throws, dodges, sj into aerial specials, back/foward dashes, etc. against more "common" offenses...like blockstrings (2abc? stop doing that plz), better blockstrings (vsion ex katto), single 2a ticks (kouma says "NO!"), etc. Ppl need to see more practical ways of how its used. im surprised japan hasnt compiled some random vid for this yet. Go lin, get the jump on everyone!
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The reason why Japan hasn't made a bara vid is because they see it all the time in their matches. The reason why the US has not made one is because not only do you need a recording gig, you also need two people in the same area who play Melty Blood.
Regarding bara cancels, you can bara into anything that is not a normal jump or normal attack. This means you can do throws, command moves(like 4C and 6C with akiha), specials/EXs, front/back dash, heat activation, heat and blood heat.
From vaguely the easiest to the most difficult:
214 and 421 specials
backdash, throw, superjump
heat activation, front dash
blood heat activation
arc drive
any other special
command moves
Unless you're exceptionally coordinated, I think the realistic cut off is at front dash. Blood heat activation is hard and quite risky because if you miss time it, you'll get a circuit spark, which may or may not matter. Throws are generally minimally useful since they require you to be very close, and generally you're not going to be baraing at random pokes unless you're pulling some Umehara. Don't even bother learning how to do command move baras, because if you can Ume them that much, you already won the game. In terms of bara utility, I only look at how good the character's 214/421 moves are, their front/backdash, and their superjump.
Since everyone is interested with the bara super jump, you might as well know the startups for every character's super jump so that someone who plays Kohaku or Mech Hisui won't go OMG ZAR YOU LIED BARA SUPERJUMP SUCKS.
Super Jump Startup, courtesy of Veteru
6F: Hisui(Nyah suckers)
7F: Arcueid, Warcueid, Shiki, Nanaya, Miyako, Warakia, Satsuki, Ren
8F: Akiha, Aquiha, Sion, V.Sion, Ciel, Aoko
9F: Kouma
10: Nero
13: Mech Hisui
14: Kohaku
For reference, standard jump startup is 4F.
If you want to pull some real shenanigans, some characters with low dash startups can do bara front dash, and immediately shield for a red parry like effect. If you do this while in blood heat, you'll essentially be doing a last arc bara.
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Character notes:
Kouma: One of the first popularized baras in his 214C. This thing is amazing and a staple of any Kouma's game -- staple enough to be a point of entry for this character. Either you can do this or you are a bad kouma. Mega invincibility, mega damage, very hard to counter. and to add insult to injury if he has no meter he gets bara 214A which is almost as good.
Satsuki: Underutilized by Japanese players, bara 214C is fast, does soso damage, and wallslams allowing you some breathing room. The cost of entry to Sacchin is rough though as she is a meter dependant character.
Shiki: Another amazing bara in his 214C.
Kohaku: This one needs some explanation. With Hisui as her partner, she can bara 214B, but the goals are different. It has no invinciblity and can be stuffed very early. The goal is to either trade with the opponent late in the animation so that you recover while hisui is hitting them for a combo, or do it at the end of their string when no more hits are coming to turn the tide on them.
Chaos: Similar to Kohaku, you want to force a trade with his bara 214C and profit. However it's too slow to use at the end of (most) of the opponents strings. Trading is the best option.
Warakia: Bara 63214C. Requires 150% meter or max/heat, and a tiny bit of spacing. Another underused bara by the Japanese, master this and profit by giving yourself an option none of the major wara players have exploited.
V.Sion: Lol.
Arc: 214C. Use at the end of opponent's strings.
Warc: 214C. Use at the end of opponent's strings.
Hisui: 214C. Use at the end of opponents strings. Leads to 'counter hit of death' in some situations.
Other characters: Beyond my scope of knowledge or I can't recall at the moment.
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Nanaya 214B bara is pretty reliable, I don't use it enough tho. Hahaha~
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@ Linalys:
make a new bara vid...
The reason why the US has not made one is because not only do you need a recording gig, you also need two people in the same area who play Melty Blood.
So there you go! Although if FT is okay, I could probably hack something out for that. It really wouldn't be that good though. One player doing everything without a GGesque Training mode record = very difficult. Complex block strings? gtfo. Doing it off of one 2a with Kouma who doesn't exist in FT? Nope. =p
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Nanaya's 214B is useful for baras but don't use it in situations where you need a move with invincibility -- it's fairly fast but if you get hit out of it that's SCH/CH2 stun and you'll have a sad Nanaya. Useful for characters that can spam long-range projectiles that are normally +frames on block (R.Arc, Ciel, M-Hisui).
I really don't see why the Japanese don't use Satsuki's 214C out of bara more. It does ~2400 damage which is a very good return on meter used (unless you're looking to land anti-air 623Cs).
Personally, I find bara AD to be my personal limit, and since my execution is the suck I figure a trained Japanese player could do most specials out of blockstun (now doing that on a live opponent is another problem). And I guess bara SJ is the easiest one, just being 214+D78[9] (yes, you can hold 9 and get the SJ).
Technically you can bara into any normal, but only characters with dashes that have no startup and can be canceled on the first frame can do it.
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To bara super jump I believe you just do 214+D then 9, if I'm not mistaken.
;p
Fixed it for you~
Ah, my mistake.
Thank you.
;D
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We can all do any of the baras in training mode, but in a real match, I feel the upper limit, even for most Japanese players would be a front dash. You'll see the occasional 236 or AD baras, but those are few and far in between.
Here's my arbitrary best bara list and some of this might overlap with what Spooky posted earlier. Feel free to shoot any of it down though! This list does not include back dash or super jump unless they're better than normal for some reason.
S Rank
Kouma: 214C, 214A, 22C
---214C: Unbelieveable range, grabs limbs, good damage. If Kouma's around, some dunking better be going down.
---214A: Less range, about as fast as 214C, can lead to higher damage if you're in the corner
---22C: Not sure why you'd want to do this since 214C is available, but it's better than what most other characters have
Shiki: 214C, backdash
---214C: Stupid invincibility, if the first hit clashes somehow and the second hit comes out, he's got hyper armor for almost all of the 2nd hit
---Backdash: While it's been nerfed, it's still one of the best backdashes
Satsuki: 214C, 214A, 22C
---214C: Speedy, good damage, a little invincibility
---214A: Since it's jump cancellable on block or hit, it's pretty safe, and fast
---22C: 214C is probably better, but this has less positional requirements to land a combo after
Kohaku&Hisui: 214B, 624C
---214B: Instantly comes out and if you trade, Kohaku will usually recover before the opponent. As an added bonus, if you mess up and the opponent hits both Kohaku and Hisui, you take greatly reduced damage since proration and scaling are taken into account for hits on both sisters even though only hits on Kohaku will count for damage
---624C: Arguably the best Arc Drive in the game(Hisui's)
A Rank
Miyako: 214A, 214B, 214C, 22A
---214A is fast, 214B is slower but has stupid super armor, and 214C has really stupid super armor + invincibility
---22A a quick low hitting stomp
Nanaya: 214B, backdash, 22C
---214B is somewhat fast, but will get stuffed by almost anything if they're still attacking
---Backdash is still the best in the game
---22C is the safest fake out, but the power comes from being able to mix up 214A-C, and 22A-C since they all look the same
Warakia: 624C, 421ABC
---624C is Warcueid summon, and it's really stupidly good even though it costs 150% meter
---421ABC is the teleport, very quick recovery, but don't get predictable with it
B Rank
Ciel: 22C, 214C
---22C is quick and will usually score a counter hit
---214C is actually very fast from close range and good damage, just make sure it doesn't get blocked...
Arcueid: 214B, 214C, 22C
---214B is quick and is safe on block
---214C is kind of a waste of meter, but it's probably the best bara
---22C has good invincibility and clash, but has pretty low range so don't whiff it
Akiha: 214A
---214A is pretty quick and often leads to counter hits for a free air combo
Kohaku: 214ABC
---214A and 214B recover before landing so it's pretty safe to do
---214C is only vulnerable to throws while she's in magical kohaku mode
Aoko: 214C
---214C, big stupid orb, what else do you need?
Hisui: 214C, super jump
---214C can sometimes lead to the CH of death, which is huge payoff, but it's average at best
---Super jump, fastest in the game
Mech Hisui: 214A
---214A missiles come out quite fast, so it might be applicable at the end of strings
Nero: 214C, 421C
---214C can trade hits sometimes, but tricky to use
---421C ex deer, if you can squeeze this out, you'll regain momentum immediately
C Rank
Ren: 421 moves
---Cat teleports are slightly faster now, but still marginally useful at best
Hisui&Kohaku: Super jump
---Fastest super jump
Aquiha: Nothing
Vsion: Nothing
I'll probably edit this later as I realize how wrong some of this is, just off the top of my head :V
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for mech-Hisui i find Bara 236C quite good... :o
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If Miyako's 214a can be good because it's fast, then I'd think Shiki's 214a would be at least as good. It's fast, hits low, gives him a smaller hitbox etc etc.
Zaido:
But 236 falls below the line of what ikusat believes is realistically possible in a match. At least the 22 specials can sorta overlap with the 214 motion with 2142D~A/B/C or something like that. So of course the list has no 236/41236/623 motions.
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How to counter bara cancels
Since I always end up being the guy who never gets to use all of these top tier tactics but has to counter them, let me share the secrets.
1) End strings early. Instead of 2AAABC 5A whiff, just do 2AAAB 5A whiff. Not only do you not offer them a level 3 move, (forcing them to bara a level 2 one which is a little harder) if you do this and they are buffering for a bara, they dont have enough time to react to your next rushdown pattern.
2) Chain staggering. Run a pattern like 2AB5B, then very late in the cancel window cancel to 2C. If they buffered their bara too early this will throw off their timing, and has the possibility of being a surprise knockdown if they buffered all the way back. Throw off their timing and they will attempt to bara you less and less. This is doubly effective if your character has a charge move like warc's 5B or Shiki's 5C -- partially charge it and let it go early to throw off their timing. Not only can you throw off their bara timing, but this effect is twofold in that it preys on their tendency to punish charge moves -- if you're buffering a bara, see a charge move coming and prepare to punish it, but that charge move suddenly comes early -- you see where I'm going with this. These types of mind games are very easy to execute and yet when they work they quickly tear your opponent down.
3) Throw more. Sitting there and waiting for an attack to bara loses to throw.
4) PUNISH THEM WHEN THEY MESS UP! I can't overstate the importance of this. If they fail a bara and get a regular bunker, KILL IT. Forcing them to take full bnb damage just for failing a bara will make them think twice about doing it again.
5) Just because you see a bara flash, don't give up. Mashing out a fast ex on response or ramming on activate can sometimes save you from a successful bara depending on the move they used and the move they actually bara'd. You can also take the first hit and circuit spark to regain your composure and prevent them from turning the tide of your rushdown. This is your last ditch effort but the one time it works out of the 8 times you try it is very worthwhile.
Master these techniques and you will minimize the damage you take from baras and teach the opponent to look for other options.
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I sometimes bait baras by canceling into ex dust.
In fact I think ex dust beats said attempts clean out?
Yes / no?
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Well, EX Dust is persistent, so I don't see why not? Unless it's a command grab or EX/Arc with invincibility.
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I just want to remind everyone that when you bara you don't get any special properties on a move, like invincability. If move A beats move B normally, move A will beat bara move B. If you bara into something that doesn't have invincability and more hits are comming, you are going to get hit. You pretty much have 3 options to go for when baraing.
1)Something with enough invincability to last though whatever is comming.
2)Something fast enough to hit before whatever is comming next.
3)Something that will move you out of the way of whatever is comming next.
You can also go for trading instead of beating cleanly, which is sometimes a very good option.
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ok that's good to know. i was always under the impression that bara moves were unbeatable most of the time.
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i haven't been able to successfully do this, but is it possible for aoko to bara cancel into 623C? i'm assuming the motion to be 21462D3C or something like that...
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It's possible. Is it realistic in a match? No. You have a very small window to input it (especially if the move you blocked isn't level 3) and trying to prebuffer it will feature you getting smacked when you try to buffer in the 623 part.
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it is not called bara cancel
it is called baka cancel
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To understand why we call it bara cancel you have to know the history behind it. We did not get our name for it from the japanese name for it.
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From what I understand:
Japanese: Baankaa Kara Kyanseru = Baka
English: Bunker Kara Cancel = Bara
We use kara-cancel from CvS2 「カプエス２」 and 3s.
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bunker cancel = baka can
the full phrase is "guard cancel bunker cancel"
not bunker kara cancel
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Ahh, I see. Well, somehow in English, 'kara cancel' got thrown into it because it's canceling the beginning frames of the Shield Bunker. Also, in English, it's easier to say Bara Cancel than Baka Cancel, so I guess the name stuck.
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oh i see
actually the meaning of kara is empty, and bunker cancel doesnt have anything to do with empty canceling so i confused
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Kara is usually used to cancel a move in only a couple frames, like kara grabs in third strike which use the movement of an attack to move you forward, then canceling the attack into a grab, to get the effect of more range on your grab. In cvs2 you kara a roll into a special to get invincability on the special, and also the side effect of moving forward as well. In melty blood, you kara a shield buker into a command during blockstun.
To the update: in a lot of games(including melty blood) as long as you never leave blockstun you can let go of back and you will automatically continue blocking. This is present in cvs2 and mvc2, but not 3s.
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Red parries, biatch
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i haven't been able to successfully do this, but is it possible for aoko to bara cancel into 623C? i'm assuming the motion to be 21462D3C or something like that...
I've actually discovered another way to pull off bara 623c moves by using 62143d~c. After some testing, it seems that 623 and 421 moves have priority over 236 and 214 moves (not sure about 22 moves) so its very unlikely that 214c will be exe'd over the 623c in this command.
how it works:
62143d~c
6(first part of 623 command)
214(completes bunker command as well as inputing second part of 623 [2])
3d~c(finishes 623 command while still holding the buffer for bunker)
be carefull when going for this in heat mode because for some reason the game thinks 62146d~c is an Arc Drive :o :psyduck: :mystery:. So you must be extremely precise w/ the command, not grazing 6 at all, or just dont go for it in heat mode.
btw - bara ex orb is better(?) cus its easier (when used properly in between spaced out chains) and you get some meter back when (if) it lands. Problem is that it has like no invin startup and is likely to get beat out so try not to use it against someone spaming 2a's. However if you do manage to perfect bara 623c, stick w/ that. (I should actually practice this myself).
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i just input 623214+D~C in a swift motion and it works like that too
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412/623 has priority over 214/236 in most games. I remember having a list of the priority of motions, but I don't know what happened to it. I guess I'll have to compile it again.
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To the update: in a lot of games(including melty blood) as long as you never leave blockstun you can let go of back and you will automatically continue blocking. This is present in cvs2 and mvc2, but not 3s.
I heard this is changing for the new one to make it harder to bara cancle but it will let you red parry i guess.
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*Fun With EX-Knives Series*
here are some "cool" bara shenanigans versus Ciel's 214C using Aoko
~enjoy
Bara Super Jump Into Air Shield (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmYCydAN5I)
Bara Dash Into Last Arc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhodyQH2l5I)
Bara Dash Into Another Arc Drive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc75Fv5Z1Fc)
Bara Ex Orb Into Combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i4yUXPmGlo)
Bara Dash x5 ;D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUrMfCZN01M)
Again, I'm really sorry about the poor image quality. This was the best I could do w/ what I had available :'(
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Ok lets see if I get this...If I successfully pull of a bara cancel w/ Kouma (for example 236 C) will it still take meter? Sry kinda of new to this game
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The Required circuit for the EX only.
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50% for the shield bunker + whatever cost associated with the move you're using.
50% to bara super jump, 150% to bara EX.
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The Required circuit for the EX only.
This was changed as of version B2. Bara now takes the 50% for the bunker + the additional 100% for the EX.
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i began to think about it, and really, is bara canceling really worth using?
guard cancel seems to have just as much of a surprise effect as bara canceling.
i like guard cancel because it takes less commands, its easy, and for some characters, really useful.
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shield bunker is a lot riskier. they can still stuff it or bait and then punish it etc, and characters with good shield bunkers like nanaya usually still have better things to cancel them into (in nanaya's case, 214b)
the only reason i would use the regular bunker over cancelling it would be if your only good bara option (if you have one, vsion lol) costs the extra 100% meter you don't have at the time (like aoko), and you're sure that the shield bunker will land.
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Using normal bunker on any move with frame advantage or even small disadvantage leaves you open to major punishes if the opponent just stops attacking and stuffs your bunker after the invincible frames.
Bara also allows you to punish normally unpunishable setups or gain superior positioning over the opponent.
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Ahh, I see. Well, somehow in English, 'kara cancel' got thrown into it because it's canceling the beginning frames of the Shield Bunker. Also, in English, it's easier to say Bara Cancel than Baka Cancel, so I guess the name stuck.
I think we should call it a "Baka Cancel" anyways, because it makes more sense, but considering the fact that like 90% of the Melty players are anime fans in some form or another they already know what "Baka" means and will probably reject the idea.
Still, I'm rooting for the official name to be "Baka Cancel".
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It's probably too late to change what people call it. We've been calling it bara cancel since March 2006, and it's not for any creative reasons like bunker + kara or anything. I was going to explain why it's being called bara, but I'm looking at the logs right now, and the reason for it was just to fool Veteru(It was discovered by someone named Hiroshi Bara)
At one point some people tried calling it Super Bunker Cancel, or SBC for short, but we convinced everyone that SBC stood for Super Bara Cancel instead.
Maybe it's a good thing - calling it baka cancel would give make it sound too weeaboo.
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What, a move that cancels idiots isn't cool? :V
~M
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What would be the easiest way to bara a 22 move? I've tried 2214 but I usually get just the bunker, and 2142 which is often the reverse dp, (most likely because I hit 1 on accident) or is just a bunker. Is there a different motion that would be more efficient for this, like uhh 21242 or something to that effect? Thanks.
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I think I remember hearing that 22 moves don't have priority over 214 moves, so it'd be impossible.
Well, it'd still be possible, just extremely hard. You'd have to do something ridiculous like 21242 (dunno if that works) and then activate the bunker on the last possible frame or two for the buffer so that the 214D part is activated and then the buffer starts to "run out" and then the 2 or 21 "disappears" because of the buffer and then on the next frame where you press C what's read is only 1242 or 242 and you end up with a 22 bara'd move. Of course I don't know if this actually works but it makes sense that it would work like that if you tried. Then again, it's so hard to do this that...well...yeah, just forget it. lol
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I'd guess that 21422 based on the idea that you do 2141236D~C for Arc Drive. Not sure who has a 22 move worth doing though.
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Not sure if it works, but if you do 21422, could you press D for the shield bunker, then a/b/c at a point after the 214 input isn't stored and only the 22 remains? Wouldn't be practical at all, but would make it possible.
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Yeah, that's the concept I was working with in my post. Except that 21422 is actually 214252 so....you need to do be able to do the motion fast because of how long the buffer is (in other words, because 21242 is less motions, you can go slower to get it into the 8? frame buffer frame). The bonus is that you get another frame grace for hitting the buffer "boundary".
Still no practicality at all and there aren't that many 22 moves that seem to be worth baraing.
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I'm having a lot of trouble bara-ing for some reason, it seems really inconsistent for me. How fast should you switch between hitting D and then whatever button? I've been trying to slide it but maybe that's too fast?
Also, what exactly IS hitstop? Is there anyway to tell it apart from blockstun? Is it just while their move is still connected with me or what?
Also what's the input for bara-ing a throw?
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I'm having a lot of trouble bara-ing for some reason, it seems really inconsistent for me. How fast should you switch between hitting D and then whatever button? I've been trying to slide it but maybe that's too fast?
Also, what exactly IS hitstop? Is there anyway to tell it apart from blockstun? Is it just while their move is still connected with me or what?
Also what's the input for bara-ing a throw?
if you feel you're having trouble cause of the timing on the motions, fire up practice mode and set Len as opponent. Set her to dummy and do a 236[a]. If you block it , this move has tonnes of hitstop, and you should have a huge window to bara it.
You can't bara a throw afaik (can't bara into D inputs)..except for command throws.
Blockstun is your character being stuck in a blocking state. Hitstop is when the moves are actually connecting to your blocking character. You can shield bunker out of blockstun at any time, but you can only bara during hitstop. It's all pretty well detailed in the first post. Best way I can suggest to know when hitstop is, is the listen for the sound of it.
i
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I'm having a lot of trouble bara-ing for some reason, it seems really inconsistent for me. How fast should you switch between hitting D and then whatever button? I've been trying to slide it but maybe that's too fast?
Also, what exactly IS hitstop? Is there anyway to tell it apart from blockstun? Is it just while their move is still connected with me or what?
Also what's the input for bara-ing a throw?
it should be bout 1-2 frames, in other words fast, not sure what you mean by sliding.
i suggest what lolly suggest, except set it so it will display your inputs. this will tell you how long and fast your pressing the buttons and inputs. it can also determine if you even have the inputs correctly
all motions can be bara'd as long as its in the command list.(well maybe except for 632146, but i dont remember if i got that one in or not)(bara into 236 is possible though(gotta love my stix for being retarded like that, bnb for sacchin :D)
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Here's what you can't bara into:
5A 5B 5C 2A 2B 2C Jump Shield
That's it.
You can bara into anything else, including dashes, command moves, special moves, arc drives, dodge, heat activation, super jump, throw and so on.
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Can't bara circuit spark either, not that you'd want to.
EXshield?
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I'm having a lot of trouble bara-ing for some reason, it seems really inconsistent for me. How fast should you switch between hitting D and then whatever button? I've been trying to slide it but maybe that's too fast?
Also, what exactly IS hitstop? Is there anyway to tell it apart from blockstun? Is it just while their move is still connected with me or what?
Also what's the input for bara-ing a throw?
it should be bout 1-2 frames, in other words fast, not sure what you mean by sliding.
i suggest what lolly suggest, except set it so it will display your inputs. this will tell you how long and fast your pressing the buttons and inputs. it can also determine if you even have the inputs correctly
all motions can be bara'd as long as its in the command list.(well maybe except for 632146, but i dont remember if i got that one in or not)(bara into 236 is possible though(gotta love my stix for being retarded like that, bnb for sacchin :D)
Ok, 1-2 frames clears it up. When I slay sliding, I mean like, rolling my thumb from D to C, kinda like sliding it across the buttons. I didn't know if that was too fast or not but that clears it up.
Thanks a lot for the input guys. Guess I just need to practice practice practice. I'd say my success rate is at about 40% right now >_<
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Have you watched the replays on the wiki?
http://wiki.meltybread.com/index.php?n=ActCadenza.BunkerCancel
Also, Lolly has hitstop down perfectly. You have to bara as you're getting hit, not just lbocking.
~M
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To bara super jump I believe you just do 214+D then 9, if I'm not mistaken.
;p
Fixed it for you~
No he is right as well you can do A,B,C, or D at the end.
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I'm having a lot of trouble bara-ing for some reason, it seems really inconsistent for me. How fast should you switch between hitting D and then whatever button? I've been trying to slide it but maybe that's too fast?
Also, what exactly IS hitstop? Is there anyway to tell it apart from blockstun? Is it just while their move is still connected with me or what?
Also what's the input for bara-ing a throw?
if you feel you're having trouble cause of the timing on the motions, fire up practice mode and set Len as opponent. Set her to dummy and do a 236[a]. If you block it , this move has tonnes of hitstop, and you should have a huge window to bara it.
You can't bara a throw afaik (can't bara into D inputs)..except for command throws.
Blockstun is your character being stuck in a blocking state. Hitstop is when the moves are actually connecting to your blocking character. You can shield bunker out of blockstun at any time, but you can only bara during hitstop. It's all pretty well detailed in the first post. Best way I can suggest to know when hitstop is, is the listen for the sound of it.
Actually, you can bara into a throw. The input is 214+d (hold 4) then q. or you can do 2146+d (hold 6) then q.
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I love the bara cancel it reminds me of roys counter from smash like yeah I just timed the right now your screwed, (in smash 30% sword hit to face), in this game Sacchan Arc-drive to face.
To get this down turn on the read input mode, and make sure all of your combo button presses are 1 frame apart, then practice agaist computers dummy attacks set at increasingly faster speeds, and you can start using simple bara cancels on about anything, and crazy ones on anything else.
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oh btw just to let anyone know, you can press any button with the direction at the same time
in other words
instead of just 2 1 4 d c
you can do 2 1 4+d c
or instead of 6 3 2 1 4 6 d c
you can do 6 3 2 1 4 d 6+c
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Not sure if it works, but if you do 21422, could you press D for the shield bunker, then a/b/c at a point after the 214 input isn't stored and only the 22 remains? Wouldn't be practical at all, but would make it possible.
I'm pretty sure this works. It's the same way you input command moves.
Also... here's one of Akiha's better baras. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OjmawxM810)
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You can bara into anything else, including dashes, command moves, special moves, arc drives, dodge, heat activation, super jump, throw and so on.
omg... all this time i thought that you can only cancel into EX/AD :psyduck:
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You can do a sort-of bara into ex-shield depending on what move you're baraing.
You do it by baraing into dash and then immediately ex-shielding. If you know when to do this (i.e. know when you won't get smacked while dashing) it gives you more options in how you can punish them. Keep in mind that you're using shield proration that you would not have if you baraed straight into a move, so its usually more useful to do so unless you plan to go for oki or setup.
Depending on your character it can pay off a lot to learn and practice the command-move baras. Characters like Miyako (6B) and the Akihas (4C) basically have the ability to use baras to drop the 2a starter on their combo while keeping everything else to really maximize damage for only 50% meter and a lot of practice. And you can bet that spending another 100% meter on that combo for some really high damage is going to be worth it. Definitely beats a lot of the other 150% options like the 214C's for Kouma, Aoko, W.Len, Tohno, etc. out of the water.
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To bara into command normals you need to let the input buffer clear before doing the move or you'll get a 214. It isn't hard to do that, but timing it with an opponent's attack is. You pretty much need to know exactly whats coming and more importantly when it is coming to get it off, and even then command normals for the most part don't exactly have the highest priority and are liable to getting beaten out if done at a bad time.
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what about bara into throw that dosen't require the q button (cuse i don't use it) it is still plausible right?
and bara into everything sounds right i remembering baraing out of shikis 623 C a couple of times...
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I guess you could do 214d xx 4a+d, but I don't know if it's feasible.
You can bara into anything on the list above, you can bara on any blocked attack.
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214C+D is technically the easiest bara option there is, isn't it? :psyduck:
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Yep. It's great for Koumas. :V
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But better for White Lens.
Her bara is pretty much the "new" best one in the game.
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Whats a good move that I should bara with useing sion?
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is there a youtube video of w-len's bara in use?
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Whats a good move that I should bara with useing sion?
214b is my guess.
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Well if they aren't hitting you very fast. If you bara out of something that has multiple hits you're not gonna have time to get off the 214B before you get hit. It depends on the situation.
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why would you want to bara into 214B? why dont you just bunker it?
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Combo options. 623a xx 214c is probably better, but it's harder and uses more meter. 214b beats stuff for no reason normally so I assume it would be the same when barad.
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214b has foot inv so it'll go through most low attacks timed correctly.
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why would you want to bara into 214B? why dont you just bunker it?
What's the difference between bunkering and baraing a move?
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Baraing cancels the Bunker in a move you select, that means a Bara is not always a counter but sometimes a sj, dash etc.
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Bunker is your 214d move. Bara is a bunker cancelled into another move which costs another 100% meter to be effective more often than not.
A lot of bunkers are fairly bad, but in some situations you can afford to use them and save the 100% meter.
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Can someone explain exactly what inputs I should be using to bara 4c as Akiha please?
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It's incredibly simple.
Ikusat explained it something like...
21[4]DC
With exactly 8 frames (or whatever the command interpreter buffer is) between the 2 and the D. Then you push C the frame after. So that the game recognizes the bunker, forgets the 2 by the time the C comes out, and thus leaving 4c as the only possible command to cancel the bunker into.
Disclaimer: I may or may not have gotten some/most/all of the details right, but the concept is right.
.... I think.
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The frames don't have to be exact. As long as the 2 leaves the buffer before you press C(and after D) it will work. I'm not sure on the specifics of how much leeway you have though.
The practicality problem with this is that you are left blocking high for a few frames, so you'll need to know that no low is coming.
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To bunker cancel you need to cancel the bunker on the first frame, so C must be pressed the frame after D to cancel the bunker in the first place. To avoid getting 214c the frame with the 2 needs to be in the buffer when you press D, but out of the buffer when you press C on the next frame. So yeah, your frames do have to be exact. Buffer reads 21[4]D on one frame, 1[4]C on the next.
Probably best to get a really good feel for the eight frame buffer in training mode using the command interpreter. Also would help with a good stick (as in the joystick in your arcade stick)
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Only partially correct.
Firstly, the move to cancel into can be executed at any time between inputting 214D and the end of hitstop, so if you hit D immediately after the attack connects then you have several frames to work with.
What happens is:
- The character is frozen during hitstop.
- 214D immediately cancels blockstun and subtracts 50% circuit.
- 214D does not cancel hitstop, so the move itself is buffered until the character unfreezes.
- Another move is inputted, and is accepted since blockstun was cancelled.
- If this move has a higher execution priority than 214D (pretty much everything except 5X/2X), it overrides it in the buffer.
- Hitstop ends and the character executes the buffered move.
Basically, it isn't cancelled on the first frame... It's cancelled before it even happens.
Ergo, the necessary conditions for cancelling into a command normal are:
- D pressed during hitstop
- X pressed before hitstop ends (X = button that triggers the move)
- X pressed when 214 has been removed from the buffer by either:
- Holding 4 for more than 9 frames
- Waiting more than 8 frames after releasing 4
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lol im not sure but im pretty sure that even if your not in a block string you can cancel shield bunker so long as your in hitstop(isn't hitstop the time when you go into a block animation if you were holding back and your opponent uses an attack that hasnt hit you yet?) although its useless to do it at that time
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Hitstop is the period during which a character is completely frozen immediately after an attack connects. It generally lasts for 6, 8 or 10 frames depending on attack strength. Anything inputted during hitstop is buffered until it ends, at which point the move with the highest priority comes out.
Most attacks inflict hitstop on both players, which is why it usually takes longer to recover when your move connects, and why there's an input window of several frames for cancelling an attack at the earliest possible time.
Some moves (projectiles, Sacchin 214C, and probably some others) only inflict hitstop on the target, which means you recover in the same amount of time regardless of whether you connect.
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Someone should make a graphical presentation of bara. Showing each input and frame, highlighting hitstop frame and stun frame for the duration of 1 second. Make several failed bara as comparison. It would make more sense.
Some sort of ruler representing each frame. Don't get me wrong, explanation here are good enough. Just a suggestion.....
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11123333444444444
-a----b-----c
1= opponent's startup
2= opponent's move is blocked
3= hitstop
4= block stun
a= failed bara, you did it before the move connected with you. You'll get a shield bunker for this.
b= successful bara.
c= failed bara, you did it too late. You'll get a shield bunker that costs 50% meter since you did it in blockstun.
You need to do the bara during 2-3. I'm not sure if the first 4 will work or not.
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lol zaelars small graphical representation is actually quite helpful
anyways found this on dustloop, i think the same can be applied to MBAC
http://www.dustloop.com/ggac/data/hitstun.html
"Hit Stop"
"When an attack connects in Guilty Gear, the players pause briefly to make moves appear more powerful visually. For the player, this actually gives you an extra large amount of time where you can buffer inputs for moves. In addition, this is extra beneficial for charge characters (May, Venom) because it gives them extra time to charge moves, allowing them to perform some combos that would normally not seem possible.
Hit Stop only effects the people involved in being hit. Projectiles, for instance, cause hit stop only on the projectile and the person being hit by the projectile (not the person who fired it). This also means that if a projectile is active on the screen and then one player hits the other with a melee attack, the projectile continues to move even while the players are in Hit Stop."
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A slightly less made up example with a couple of clarifications:
Move example: Satsuki 2[C]
1111111111111111111111111112333333442333333442333333333344444444444
Bunker Cancel Windows: |----| |----| |--------|
1: Startup.
2: Block/Hit frame (see bottom). Treated as 4 if already in stun.
3: Hitstop. 214D and the other move must be inputted here.
4: Blockstun.
Example of a Bunker Cancelled 4C against Satsuki 214A
1111111112333333333344444444444444444
Direction: 2--1--4----------------
Button: D- C-
<= 8f |---|
> 8f |--------| (if <= 9f, you get 214C)
...against Satsuki 2C
111112333333442333333333344444444444
Direction: 2-1-4--1------4---------------------------
Button: D- C-
<= 9f |-||----| <= 8f
|-------| > 8f (if <= 8f, you get 214C)
In this case you need to be holding 1 when the attack hits to block it, which means releasing 4, which screws with the timing a bit.
This is also a much safer way to do bunker cancels, since it minimises the amount of time spent standing up.
...6B against Satsuki 2[C]
1111111111111111111111111112333333442333333442333333333344444444444
Direction: 1----------2-1-4--1------ 6---
Button: D- B-
<= 9f |-||---| <= 8f
|--------| > 8f
Pretty useless in practice, but I've used it as an example anyway because it's one of the hardest things to bunker cancel into, and 2[C] is one of the hardest attacks to do it against.
Addendum: Hit frame weirdness
1. If you aren't already in hit/blockstun when an attack connects, the game uses this frame to check whether you're holding the right direction to block or not. Nothing else inputted on this frame will come out, even 214D.
2. If you are already in blockstun, then you can Spark or 214D as normal on this frame to intercept the attack.
3. So... 214D during Nanaya 236X or something similar. You probably already know it doesn't fucking work, and that's because it goes like "233323332333" etc. where each hit connects whilst you're still in hitstop.
So... you throw 214D. The game takes 50% circuit in exchange for cancelling blockstun and buffers the move until the last frame of hitstop... except it never arrives because you get hit again, and because you're not in blockstun any more it applies Rule 1 and you just end up blocking again (or getting hit if you weren't still holding back). Fun.
...also, coincidentally, Nanaya 236X and the last hit of Satsuki 2[C] are more examples of moves that act like projectiles, inflicting hitstop on the target but not the user.
(Edits: Now 100% accurate, and demonstrating timing differences with a few different moves)
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This topic is really helpful but one if the things that i think is stopping me form getting to the next level of gaming is really understanding Frame Data....
How to you guys tell how much frames or in a move just by watching? do you guys watch replays in slow motion???
And what about when you are actually playing do you count frames in your head to help with cancelling?
I feel like i'm missing out on something by not understanding frames like you guys.
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i bunker cancel a lot, and i dont understand frame data either. my opinion is- that is it a waste of time to memorize frame data.
honestly, its better to learn by doing, having a friend to practice with is the best way to learn.
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You don't need to know the frame data of every move, but you should know what the data would tell you. Things like what your fastest move is is good to know. What moves are fast enough to punish move x, what moves are safe on block, and so on.
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Yeah, as far as the use of frame data goes once you've sat down for a match, it's really just a measurement of how fast things are to help compare with other stuff. We wouldn't see half of the frames of opponent's x move go by and then consciously divide the number by two and find a move that's that many frames or less to beat it; we aren't supercomputers, we're humans. However, we would know that x move is 8 frames and y move is 12 frames so it wouldn't be a good idea to use y move if the other player is using x move often (or that if opponent is using y move often, use x move to beat them).
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ok fair enuff...i understand...just wanted to ask to make sure I wasn't missing anything
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just wanted to ask to make sure I wasn't missing anything
Smart line of thinking. Just don't get caught by the grammar police....oh wait thats me so you get a ticket for 300 e-cookies.
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just wanted to ask to make sure I wasn't missing anything
Smart line of thinking. Just don't get caught by the grammar police....oh wait thats me so you get a ticket for 300 e-cookies.
Apparently my usual lack of any puncuation has escaped the grammar polices gaze.
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just wanted to ask to make sure I wasn't missing anything
Smart line of thinking. Just don't get caught by the grammar police....oh wait thats me so you get a ticket for 300 e-cookies.
Apparently my usual lack of any puncuation has escaped the grammar polices gaze.
But your typo error hasn't escaped my gaze. It's spelled "punctuation".
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explanation with sacchin
NOOOO you bastard D: There was already enough pros that bara 2c, now the whole world knows. god i gotta find new blockstring that don't involve 2c.(okay so what if i reverse using 5a practically everytime after 2c when opponent is in a blockstring)