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Author Topic: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread  (Read 57736 times)

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Offline Tempered

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2008, 01:27:30 PM »
Whats a good move that I should bara with useing sion?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 05:06:56 PM by Holierthanu »
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Offline scottind

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2008, 01:49:13 PM »
is there a youtube video of w-len's bara in use?

Offline Zaelar

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2008, 06:45:11 PM »
Whats a good move that I should bara with useing sion?

214b is my guess.

Offline Ultima66

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2008, 09:31:27 PM »
Well if they aren't hitting you very fast. If you bara out of something that has multiple hits you're not gonna have time to get off the 214B before you get hit. It depends on the situation.

Offline scottind

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2008, 11:40:45 PM »
why would you want to bara into 214B? why dont you just bunker it?

Offline Zaelar

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2008, 11:56:01 PM »
Combo options.  623a xx 214c is probably better, but it's harder and uses more meter.  214b beats stuff for no reason normally so I assume it would be the same when barad.

Offline linalys

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2008, 08:48:09 AM »
214b has foot inv so it'll go through most low attacks timed correctly. 
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Offline Alfonse

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2008, 08:54:15 AM »
why would you want to bara into 214B? why dont you just bunker it?

What's the difference between bunkering and baraing a move?
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Offline abitofBaileys

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2008, 10:43:08 AM »
Baraing cancels the Bunker in a move you select, that means a Bara is not always a counter but sometimes a sj, dash etc.

Offline S-Blade

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2008, 03:18:50 PM »
Bunker is your 214d move. Bara is a bunker cancelled into another move which costs another 100% meter to be effective more often than not.

A lot of bunkers are fairly bad, but in some situations you can afford to use them and save the 100% meter.
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Offline Soniti

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2008, 07:51:24 PM »
Can someone explain exactly what inputs I should be using to bara 4c as Akiha please?

Offline linalys

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2008, 10:35:04 PM »
It's incredibly simple. 

Ikusat explained it something like...

21[4]DC

With exactly 8 frames (or whatever the command interpreter buffer is) between the 2 and the D.  Then you push C the frame after.  So that the game recognizes the bunker, forgets the 2 by the time the C comes out, and thus leaving 4c as the only possible command to cancel the bunker into. 

Disclaimer: I may or may not have gotten some/most/all of the details right, but the concept is right.

.... I think.   
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2008, 01:14:21 AM »
The frames don't have to be exact.  As long as the 2 leaves the buffer before you press C(and after D) it will work.  I'm not sure on the specifics of how much leeway you have though.

The practicality problem with this is that you are left blocking high for a few frames, so you'll need to know that no low is coming.

Offline S-Blade

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2008, 05:41:10 AM »
To bunker cancel you need to cancel the bunker on the first frame, so C must be pressed the frame after D to cancel the bunker in the first place. To avoid getting 214c the frame with the 2 needs to be in the buffer when you press D, but out of the buffer when you press C on the next frame. So yeah, your frames do have to be exact. Buffer reads 21[4]D on one frame, 1[4]C on the next.

Probably best to get a really good feel for the eight frame buffer in training mode using the command interpreter. Also would help with a good stick (as in the joystick in your arcade stick)
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Offline Sprint

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2008, 03:15:58 PM »
Only partially correct.

Firstly, the move to cancel into can be executed at any time between inputting 214D and the end of hitstop, so if you hit D immediately after the attack connects then you have several frames to work with.

What happens is:
  • The character is frozen during hitstop.
  • 214D immediately cancels blockstun and subtracts 50% circuit.
  • 214D does not cancel hitstop, so the move itself is buffered until the character unfreezes.
  • Another move is inputted, and is accepted since blockstun was cancelled.
  • If this move has a higher execution priority than 214D (pretty much everything except 5X/2X), it overrides it in the buffer.
  • Hitstop ends and the character executes the buffered move.

Basically, it isn't cancelled on the first frame... It's cancelled before it even happens.

Ergo, the necessary conditions for cancelling into a command normal are:
  • D pressed during hitstop
  • X pressed before hitstop ends (X = button that triggers the move)
  • X pressed when 214 has been removed from the buffer by either:
    • Holding 4 for more than 9 frames
    • Waiting more than 8 frames after releasing 4
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 07:26:08 PM by Sprint »
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Offline Twinniss

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2008, 12:46:35 PM »
lol im not sure but im pretty sure that even if your not in a block string you can cancel shield bunker so long as your in hitstop(isn't hitstop the time when you go into a block animation if you were holding back and your opponent uses an attack that hasnt hit you yet?) although its useless to do it at that time
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Offline Sprint

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2008, 01:26:54 AM »
Hitstop is the period during which a character is completely frozen immediately after an attack connects. It generally lasts for 6, 8 or 10 frames depending on attack strength. Anything inputted during hitstop is buffered until it ends, at which point the move with the highest priority comes out.

Most attacks inflict hitstop on both players, which is why it usually takes longer to recover when your move connects, and why there's an input window of several frames for cancelling an attack at the earliest possible time.
Some moves (projectiles, Sacchin 214C, and probably some others) only inflict hitstop on the target, which means you recover in the same amount of time regardless of whether you connect.
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Offline littlebro

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #92 on: June 03, 2008, 04:32:51 AM »
Someone should make a graphical presentation of bara. Showing each input and frame, highlighting hitstop frame and stun frame for the duration of 1 second. Make several failed bara as comparison. It would make more sense.

Some sort of ruler representing each frame. Don't get me wrong, explanation here are good enough. Just a suggestion.....
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 04:42:03 AM by littlebro »

Offline Zaelar

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #93 on: June 03, 2008, 09:55:21 AM »
11123333444444444
-a----b-----c

1= opponent's startup
2= opponent's move is blocked
3= hitstop
4= block stun

a= failed bara, you did it before the move connected with you.  You'll get a shield bunker for this.
b= successful bara.
c= failed bara, you did it too late.  You'll get a shield bunker that costs 50% meter since you did it in blockstun.

You need to do the bara during 2-3.  I'm not sure if the first 4 will work or not.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 02:26:15 PM by Zaelar »

Offline Twinniss

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2008, 12:25:46 PM »
lol zaelars small graphical representation is actually quite helpful

anyways found this on dustloop, i think the same can be applied to MBAC

http://www.dustloop.com/ggac/data/hitstun.html
"Hit Stop"
"When an attack connects in Guilty Gear, the players pause briefly to make moves appear more powerful visually. For the player, this actually gives you an extra large amount of time where you can buffer inputs for moves. In addition, this is extra beneficial for charge characters (May, Venom) because it gives them extra time to charge moves, allowing them to perform some combos that would normally not seem possible.

Hit Stop only effects the people involved in being hit. Projectiles, for instance, cause hit stop only on the projectile and the person being hit by the projectile (not the person who fired it). This also means that if a projectile is active on the screen and then one player hits the other with a melee attack, the projectile continues to move even while the players are in Hit Stop."
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Offline Sprint

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2008, 06:56:58 AM »
A slightly less made up example with a couple of clarifications:

Move example: Satsuki 2[C]
1111111111111111111111111112333333442333333442333333333344444444444
Bunker Cancel Windows:      |----|   |----|   |--------|


1: Startup.
2: Block/Hit frame (see bottom). Treated as 4 if already in stun.
3: Hitstop. 214D and the other move must be inputted here.
4: Blockstun.

Example of a Bunker Cancelled 4C against Satsuki 214A
          1111111112333333333344444444444444444
Direction: 2--1--4----------------
Button:               D-   C-

           <= 8f |---|
            > 8f |--------| (if <= 9f, you get 214C)


...against Satsuki 2C
                 111112333333442333333333344444444444
Direction: 2-1-4--1------4---------------------------
Button:                 D- C-

         <= 9f |-||----| <= 8f
                  |-------| > 8f (if <= 8f, you get 214C)

In this case you need to be holding 1 when the attack hits to block it, which means releasing 4, which screws with the timing a bit.
This is also a much safer way to do bunker cancels, since it minimises the amount of time spent standing up.

...6B against Satsuki 2[C]
1111111111111111111111111112333333442333333442333333333344444444444
Direction:              1----------2-1-4--1------ 6---
Button:                                        D-   B-

                                 <= 9f |-||---| <= 8f
                                          |--------| > 8f

Pretty useless in practice, but I've used it as an example anyway because it's one of the hardest things to bunker cancel into, and 2[C] is one of the hardest attacks to do it against.

Addendum: Hit frame weirdness
1. If you aren't already in hit/blockstun when an attack connects, the game uses this frame to check whether you're holding the right direction to block or not. Nothing else inputted on this frame will come out, even 214D.
2. If you are already in blockstun, then you can Spark or 214D as normal on this frame to intercept the attack.
3. So... 214D during Nanaya 236X or something similar. You probably already know it doesn't fucking work, and that's because it goes like "233323332333" etc. where each hit connects whilst you're still in hitstop.
So... you throw 214D. The game takes 50% circuit in exchange for cancelling blockstun and buffers the move until the last frame of hitstop... except it never arrives because you get hit again, and because you're not in blockstun any more it applies Rule 1 and you just end up blocking again (or getting hit if you weren't still holding back). Fun.

...also, coincidentally, Nanaya 236X and the last hit of Satsuki 2[C] are more examples of moves that act like projectiles, inflicting hitstop on the target but not the user.



(Edits: Now 100% accurate, and demonstrating timing differences with a few different moves)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 02:12:34 AM by Sprint »
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Offline Atiba

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2008, 03:10:22 PM »
This topic is really helpful but one if the things that i think is stopping me form getting to the next level of gaming is really understanding Frame Data....

How to you guys tell how much frames or in a move just by watching? do you guys watch replays in slow motion???

And what about when you are actually playing do you count frames in your head to help with cancelling?

I feel like i'm missing out on something by not understanding frames like you guys.

Offline scottind

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2008, 03:36:38 PM »
i bunker cancel a lot, and i dont understand frame data either. my opinion is- that is it a waste of time to memorize frame data.

honestly, its better to learn by doing, having a friend to practice with is the best way to learn.

Offline Zaelar

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2008, 04:00:31 PM »
You don't need to know the frame data of every move, but you should know what the data would tell you.  Things like what your fastest move is is good to know.  What moves are fast enough to punish move x, what moves are safe on block, and so on.

Offline S-Blade

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Re: The Bara Cancel (Bunker Cancel) Thread
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2008, 08:19:55 PM »
Yeah, as far as the use of frame data goes once you've sat down for a match, it's really just a measurement of how fast things are to help compare with other stuff. We wouldn't see half of the frames of opponent's x move go by and then consciously divide the number by two and find a move that's that many frames or less to beat it; we aren't supercomputers, we're humans. However, we would know that x move is 8 frames and y move is 12 frames so it wouldn't be a good idea to use y move if the other player is using x move often (or that if opponent is using y move often, use x move to beat them).
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