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Author Topic: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes  (Read 7054 times)

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Offline Numakie

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Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« on: August 30, 2010, 09:50:45 PM »
I was testing out the situation when a character lands on the ground and the opponent immediately attacks right when the character lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqSCuPQqsiE
If you are in the air and you land without attacking, you are able to guard immediately when you land.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqSCuPQqsiE#t=00m50s
If you whiff an attack in the air and then land, you will not be able to guard. In fact, your character will actually appear on the ground, in which the opponent can start a ground combo as you land.

This will become very apparent if you whiff a jB or jC and get a ground attack from afar (like Kohaku's 2C). This will be very apparent if you have a bad habit of accidentally crossing over the opponent in the air and you used an attack (like me ;x).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 09:53:10 PM by Numakie »
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 11:05:35 PM »
I knew that if you whiffed an air shield or airthrow, you can't jump cancel and you're EXTREMELY vulnerable when you land, but didn't know this extended to air normals.

Does this include all types of jumps? And does it also count if you jump, then jump cancel again? Since double jumps wipe what normals you used before hand, I believe that is worth testing out too.

But still, very useful information. Nice find, Numakie; I hope you can answer my noob questions as well later, as I'm really bad at testing these things myself at the moment.
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Offline dakanya

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 03:43:24 AM »
i think this is called trip guard (idk i picked the term up from bell)

this is pretty old but yeah i don't think it's been talked about on the forums before and yes it did change in AA

zar has gone in detail about how it changed on irc

more importantly, iirc there is a period of time where you cannot block even if you didn't do anything in the air

in mbac this time (landing recovery) was reduced by whiffing an air move

you should probably test with full white len's ice pit instead

also iirc airdashes can affect your landing recovery/trip guard as well
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Offline NotGreats

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 05:17:43 AM »
This is suddenly way too confusing.

I was under the impression that even if you do nothing while in the air that there is a certain amount of landing recovery (without trip guard).  And that doing things such as wiffing a C or B attack in the air (moves that do not recover before landing), as well as shielding and wiffing an airthrow - enlongated this period. 

And the other thing that I thought I understood is that if you land while doing ANY air normal (aka wiff a normal on the way down, whether it still be in startup, active, or in recovery), that you would gain full trip guard upon landing, as well as be able to attack immediately.  I'm pretty sure that at least this last statement is correct because many characters make use of this property for which-way mixups (if you try to do it without wiffing a move on the way down you'll find that by the time you recover you will be at a frame disadvantage).

Is any of that wrong?  Also ice vine isn't much of a test if people will actually hit it before landing, but I don't really know that much about it.

Offline dakanya

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 05:49:43 AM »
hmm. greats post sounds right.

trip guard is different? i think someone needs to define that term lol

sorry for the confusion. it looks like you know this better than i do
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Offline Curbeh

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 07:48:08 AM »
I'm not sure what everyone is confused about so I'll just spell out what I know.

If you air dash and do nothing, or whiff an attack in air then land:
In these cases you get landing recovery. Landing recovery off an air dash is the same as MBAC.
Landing recovery from an air move is less than that and depends on the move (A - 0(?), B/C - 2), but if you hit the opponent with it and land at the same time you get almost no recovery. There is also landing recovery from special operation in the air such as shield, or air thrown. The landing recovery for that is 12 frames.
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Offline Rei

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 07:51:19 AM »
what Curbeh said.

For most moves it is 2 frames of recovery, but it can be different, for example Ryougi j.236A
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Offline Legendary Blue Shirt

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 09:24:41 AM »
An IRC discussion I had quite a while ago.
Quote
[23:59] <Kung_Fu_Man> if you do an aerial attack you have to wait 3 ticks before you get control again on landing
[00:00] <Kung_Fu_Man> mind you I haven't checked if this affects attacking once you land but it does for sure affect movement
[00:01] <Kung_Fu_Man> Interesting...it seems if you airdash to land, you gain control on the very last tick of the jump land anim
[00:01] <Kung_Fu_Man> basically animtime = -1
[00:01] <Insanius> The game is very forgiving when you try to start combos with jump-ins, so it's not unlikely that attacking can be done immediately after landing
[00:02] <Kung_Fu_Man> I'll test it in a bit
[00:06] <Kung_Fu_Man> Yep, that applies to attacking upon landing as well
[00:06] <Kung_Fu_Man> HOwever
[00:06] <Kung_Fu_Man> If you air dash, then attack while you're falling, it treats it as you landing from an aerial attack shortening the delay
[00:07] <Kung_Fu_Man> so it's completely dependent on the last action, not what you do prior
[00:11] <Kung_Fu_Man> seems the airdash bit also applies to any special attack you do in the air too
[00:12] <Insanius> attack = good
[00:12] <Insanius> What about blocking
[00:12] <Kung_Fu_Man> lemme test
[00:17] <Kung_Fu_Man> Landing from guarding an attack = ctrl given one tick after landing
[00:18] <Kung_Fu_Man> btw aerial shielding is treated for these purposes the same as landing from a special attack/airdash

Offline Numakie

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 01:50:48 PM »
Mind that i only tested blocking right after a jump jump.  I'll prolly record more tests when i get home from work.

One random note: I believe Hisui whiffed jBB does not get affected by the landing recovery.  I usually catch ppl with a EX shield right when I land and they try to counter me.
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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 09:21:28 PM »
j.BB is safe.
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Offline NotGreats

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 09:26:01 PM »
Ok so there's recovery after airdashing, and every type of attack but A attacks (i'm sure kouma/satsuki are exceptions)

Does this include jumping and landing without doing anything, air dodging, and jumping and then double jumping and landing without doing anything?


It seems like the answer is to just always do an attack on the way down if you can which isn't anything different than we knew already, I'm just curious if those allow safe blocking or not (would let you avoid stuff like getting hit by air blockable DP or a parry or what have you).

Offline S-Blade

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 05:10:21 AM »
"Trip Guard" is a term that's been around since SF2 but its exact meaning isn't very clear, well-known, well-documented, and when the term is used, it's used kind of loosely as well. Don't quote me on any of this I'm about to say, I'm not super confident on how accurate the details are.

The idea is that trip guard in SF involved being in a jump and getting hit by a sweep as you land which was kind of peculiar because the sweeps in question had such low hitboxes that they shouldn't really be able to connect with someone in the air, but if they landed on the ground, they should have been able to block, yet got hit.

So what we're discussing here is the same idea, with air recovery as you land. I think the actual "trip guard" referred to having little or no landing recovery in a game (since games in the series differed with this, along with a ton of other things ofc), since a character would be guarded from being tripped after a jump (since most people just used sweeps for the knockdown and pushback)

Also IIRC I believe landing recovery can also be cancelled in some situations (def. not on whiff)? Since (to my memory, I play mostly F these days), if you connect a jump-in and then land and hit A (or B if you jumped in with C) you get a reverse beat message.

To find out if something is safejumpable or not, air recovery needs to be one frame faster than the startup of the reversal. This is because you would need at least one frame of the jump-in being meaty. Think of the air recovery as the startup for a block, but you're always starting it at least one frame after the reversal if you still want the meaty OS.
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 06:51:23 PM »
Trip guard is being able to block low when you land.  In games without trip guard if you hit someone with a low as they land they can't block it, but if you hit them high they can.  It has nothing to do with getting hit out of the air.

Offline Tempered

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Re: Vunerable when landing after whiffed air pokes
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 01:16:47 AM »
My input to confuse people. I have found that empty jumps or double jumps have no recovery on landing. Empty air dashes have quite a bit of recovery on landing. anytime you whiff an air normal you have minimal recovery on landing.
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