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Author Topic: What's a sandoori?  (Read 11898 times)

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Offline BurstOfAnger

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What's a sandoori?
« on: October 08, 2009, 04:07:59 AM »
I tried searching but immediately got no results so I'm asking here. Also making the thread in case new players would like to know what it is.

And if there are any new players checking this thread, I'll put this best description on the first post for easier viewing.

The most common example is off of Kouma 214A. It always involves jumping over the opponent on wakeup, but there's many variations. Kouma 214A (without 214A[4] or 214A[2] ender) gives a very long knockdown time, so you have a lot of time to do either dash up straight jump or superjump.

Straight up jump at point blank while they're knocked down:
-hold back, j.C 2A gives either a forward overhead or forward low attack, depending on when you timed the jump
-don't hold anything, j.C 2A lets you float over them midscreen for crossup low attack
-hold back, j.C whiff 214A gets you throw into another sandoori setup from in front
-don't hold anything, j.C whiff 214A gets you crossup throw into another sandoori going the other direction
-don't hold anything, airbackdash j.C gets you deep j.C off of early jump that looks like you're planning to cross up but don't
-don't hold anything, 496 j.C gets you crossup overhead
-don't hold anything, j.[C] gets you a cross up overhead on some tall characters

Off of superjump you can do pretty much all of the same things except it's a little harder to control where you cross up the opponent if you go for it, and you have to air backdash to not cross up.

496 might sound confusing, but basically after your jump, your back will be to them with you in the air and them on the ground. Press "forward" relative to where you're facing, then tap 9, up and towards the opponent to turn around in the air, and then immediately away from the opponent again. If you did it right you would have buffered and air backdash immediately after the jump, getting you close enough to land a j.C off of the air backdash.

There's many variations of it, and a lot of characters get something like it in MBAA. F Satsuki can land it off of 623A, Warachia can off of AD combo or throw to an extent (you can do a really fast crossup off of throw -> Nero summon, and have many other options similar to sandoori), and I know many other characters can do it from any long knockdown. All you need is a source of a long knockdown, a dash that carries momentum into your jump (when you dash then jump straight up you shouldn't move straight up, the more forward the momentum carries you the better), an aerial that has good forward and downward range, and an air backdash that floats (though it shouldn't be too high like Nero's that's basically a back jump) and moves you back a decent distance.

I think Ultima's info in the initial post needs a little cleaning up, it's a little more simple than that (and the actual example mentioned is also kinda....yeah.). It's not necessarily wrong, but....sandoori isn't a 7 way mixup lol

Sandoori is a generic type of mixup, independent of a character's moveset, that allows them to crossup (usually) three ways (which is why it is called SAN doori): crossup, no/fake crossup, and a high/low (whatever the other two aren't) or a throw. The moveset of the character can allow them to go from a correct sandoori guess into another sandoori setup, and also determines if that last option is low or throw. A true sandoori can be done anywhere on the screen outside of in the very corner.

Another very notable thing about sandoori that makes it so strong is that the common airdash-back-over option is very safe from all kinds of reversals: if the air attack was meaty, heats often miss and get punished; dodges are usually safe from the air attack but lose to the throw and the low or throw option and rolls kind of lose to everything; stuff usually very reliable like MBAC ciel ex flashkick => cancel to ex knives do not work to the air option.

Examples are, as mentioned, (MBAC) Kouma 214a, (MBAC) Hisui close strong knockdown, and also (MBAC) Sacchin 623c (denpa uses this).

MBAC Kouma:
(From the left side), 214a, and then dash forward, jump straight up. Your momentum will carry you to the other side of the opponent. From here, you're in a position for all three options: Air backdash j.C for a left-side hit, land and 2a for a right side hit, or land and grab (kouma doesn't hit low). The positioning is really what makes the sandoori here: in range to land a ground hit, in range to land a grab (kind of difficult), and in range to combo off of air backdash j.C (also kind of difficult).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA0EP-QSHjg This only has one option/instance of the example and some other ambigous crossup off 2c but it gets the job done.

MBAC Hisui (with my limited and possibly incorrect knowledge):
Off of a throw, Hisui has the exact same setup with the exact same options working the same way, except she follows the air j.C differently.

MBAC Sacchin:
623c. Superjump, neutral jump up after you've crossed up, and forward jump momentum back toward where you started. Sacchin then has: Airbackdash j.C high hit, land right side low hit, land left side low hit. Note that this is different than her 4-way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Erg_a4HDo#t=55s

Again, the thing with achieving sandoori with your character, because it is mostly independent of moveset, is more on gaining a nice knockdown and achieving that positioning before the opponent gets up. Getting a usable sandoori is actually dependent on moveset, however: being able to combo off the options and get good damage and, most importantly, being able to go from a sandoori into another sandoori.

I don't understand why people think jumpover air jump air backdash in the corner j.C is a sandoori/real mixup...it's perfectly reactable even when done very cleanly.

A more practical, newer example I recently discovered with F-Kouma (thanks goes to zar for using this back in friggin mbac ps2 days? lol):
(From the left side), 214a -or- 623a, dash superjump, timed airbackdash. Timed early, j.C for left side hit; Timed late, j.A/B/C whiff for less landing recovery, 2aa for right side hit; Timed either way, land 214a. Much harder than what MBAC Kouma had to do but it's still around.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 07:08:38 PM by BurstOfAnger »
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Offline fiendmaw

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 04:15:29 AM »
Uhm,I'm not sure of the exact definition,but a sandoori is performed usually on wakeup and it involves superjumping,backdashing,making a high-low guessing game...
If that didnt inform you,think Sacchin or Kouma oki,where they sj then airbackdash etc.
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Offline sogos

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 10:52:38 AM »
I thought it involved having your opponent in the corner and since they are in that corner should only have to worry about blocking in one direction. A sandoori involves you jumping/airdashing/whatever into the corner yourself, effectively crossing them up
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Offline Ultima66

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2009, 11:31:34 AM »
I thought it involved having your opponent in the corner and since they are in that corner should only have to worry about blocking in one direction. A sandoori involves you jumping/airdashing/whatever into the corner yourself, effectively crossing them up
It doesn't involve corners at all. Usually it works better midscreen. You're just talking about a corner crossup.

The most common example is off of Kouma 214A. It always involves jumping over the opponent on wakeup, but there's many variations. Kouma 214A (without 214A[4] or 214A[2] ender) gives a very long knockdown time, so you have a lot of time to do either dash up straight jump or superjump.

Straight up jump at point blank while they're knocked down:
-hold back, j.C 2A gives either a forward overhead or forward low attack, depending on when you timed the jump
-don't hold anything, j.C 2A lets you float over them midscreen for crossup low attack
-hold back, j.C whiff 214A gets you throw into another sandoori setup from in front
-don't hold anything, j.C whiff 214A gets you crossup throw into another sandoori going the other direction
-don't hold anything, airbackdash j.C gets you deep j.C off of early jump that looks like you're planning to cross up but don't
-don't hold anything, 496 j.C gets you crossup overhead
-don't hold anything, j.[C] gets you a cross up overhead on some tall characters

Off of superjump you can do pretty much all of the same things except it's a little harder to control where you cross up the opponent if you go for it, and you have to air backdash to not cross up.

496 might sound confusing, but basically after your jump, your back will be to them with you in the air and them on the ground. Press "forward" relative to where you're facing, then tap 9, up and towards the opponent to turn around in the air, and then immediately away from the opponent again. If you did it right you would have buffered and air backdash immediately after the jump, getting you close enough to land a j.C off of the air backdash.

There's many variations of it, and a lot of characters get something like it in MBAA. F Satsuki can land it off of 623A, Warachia can off of AD combo or throw to an extent (you can do a really fast crossup off of throw -> Nero summon, and have many other options similar to sandoori), and I know many other characters can do it from any long knockdown. All you need is a source of a long knockdown, a dash that carries momentum into your jump (when you dash then jump straight up you shouldn't move straight up, the more forward the momentum carries you the better), an aerial that has good forward and downward range, and an air backdash that floats (though it shouldn't be too high like Nero's that's basically a back jump) and moves you back a decent distance.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 11:33:58 AM by Ultima66 »

Offline Erkz

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2009, 01:12:03 PM »
496 might sound confusing, but basically after your jump, your back will be to them with you in the air and them on the ground. Press "forward" relative to where you're facing, then tap 9, up and towards the opponent to turn around in the air, and then immediately away from the opponent again. If you did it right you would have buffered and air backdash immediately after the jump, getting you close enough to land a j.C off of the air backdash.

Just tried this with Akiha. Damn that's useful. o.O

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Offline LoliSauce

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 09:48:17 PM »
I'm debating on moving this to system mechanics or not, since most threads of this nature (explaining a technique of the game) are in there.  What do you guys think?
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Offline BurstOfAnger

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2009, 10:06:51 PM »
Go ahead. I just realized it fits more there too. Perhaps I will edit the first post with Ultima's explanation to make it easier for anyone who's checking this thread to find out what a sandoori is.
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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2009, 10:07:09 PM »
if i think of it by the name itself
it'd be i guess three way
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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2009, 10:21:40 PM »
Aight, I'm moving this to mechanics then.
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Offline S-Blade

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 08:41:15 AM »
I think Ultima's info in the initial post needs a little cleaning up, it's a little more simple than that (and the actual example mentioned is also kinda....yeah.). It's not necessarily wrong, but....sandoori isn't a 7 way mixup lol

Sandoori is a generic type of mixup, independent of a character's moveset, that allows them to crossup (usually) three ways (which is why it is called SAN doori): crossup, no/fake crossup, and a high/low (whatever the other two aren't) or a throw. The moveset of the character can allow them to go from a correct sandoori guess into another sandoori setup, and also determines if that last option is low or throw. A true sandoori can be done anywhere on the screen outside of in the very corner.

Another very notable thing about sandoori that makes it so strong is that the common airdash-back-over option is very safe from all kinds of reversals: if the air attack was meaty, heats often miss and get punished; dodges are usually safe from the air attack but lose to the throw and the low or throw option and rolls kind of lose to everything; stuff usually very reliable like MBAC ciel ex flashkick => cancel to ex knives do not work to the air option.

Examples are, as mentioned, (MBAC) Kouma 214a, (MBAC) Hisui close strong knockdown, and also (MBAC) Sacchin 623c (denpa uses this).

MBAC Kouma:
(From the left side), 214a, and then dash forward, jump straight up. Your momentum will carry you to the other side of the opponent. From here, you're in a position for all three options: Air backdash j.C for a left-side hit, land and 2a for a right side hit, or land and grab (kouma doesn't hit low). The positioning is really what makes the sandoori here: in range to land a ground hit, in range to land a grab (kind of difficult), and in range to combo off of air backdash j.C (also kind of difficult).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA0EP-QSHjg This only has one option/instance of the example and some other ambigous crossup off 2c but it gets the job done.

MBAC Hisui (with my limited and possibly incorrect knowledge):
Off of a throw, Hisui has the exact same setup with the exact same options working the same way, except she follows the air j.C differently.

MBAC Sacchin:
623c. Superjump, neutral jump up after you've crossed up, and forward jump momentum back toward where you started. Sacchin then has: Airbackdash j.C high hit, land right side low hit, land left side low hit. Note that this is different than her 4-way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Erg_a4HDo#t=55s

Again, the thing with achieving sandoori with your character, because it is mostly independent of moveset, is more on gaining a nice knockdown and achieving that positioning before the opponent gets up. Getting a usable sandoori is actually dependent on moveset, however: being able to combo off the options and get good damage and, most importantly, being able to go from a sandoori into another sandoori.

I don't understand why people think jumpover air jump air backdash in the corner j.C is a sandoori/real mixup...it's perfectly reactable even when done very cleanly.

A more practical, newer example I recently discovered with F-Kouma (thanks goes to zar for using this back in friggin mbac ps2 days? lol):
(From the left side), 214a -or- 623a, dash superjump, timed airbackdash. Timed early, j.C for left side hit; Timed late, j.A/B/C whiff for less landing recovery, 2aa for right side hit; Timed either way, land 214a. Much harder than what MBAC Kouma had to do but it's still around.
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Offline BurstOfAnger

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 07:08:13 PM »
Thanks S-Blade! Since its more info, I'll add it into the first post as well.
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Offline judge_rl

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2009, 12:22:10 PM »
'Sandoori' seems to be a new term for the same types of mix-ups used in most games where you have untechable knockdown + airdash (not always necessary). Most players from Marvel/SF refer to this as the 'vortex'. Very good write-ups guys. Also, very useful links showing some examples of how it looks in MB. thnx
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Offline Coren

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2009, 01:41:31 PM »
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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2009, 08:34:06 PM »
LMAO TOOOOOO GOOOD SIR

TOOOO GOOD

This vid is now a favorite ^_^ Dude is playing Wara like Magneto XD (I wonder if that is the infamous Ryu I've seen so far beasting with Wara) I'm sold. Range AND mix-ups ftw
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 08:35:39 PM by judge_rl »
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Offline Lord Knight

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009, 05:54:45 PM »
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Offline S-Blade

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 03:24:27 PM »
as an aside, again the reason why sandoori's and similar mixups were strong was the anti-reversal aspect, crossing up your inputs (sometimes multiple times) and being meaty, but moving away and recovering before the long startup of a heat activate ends (kind of like an SF safe jump)

there's been kind of an effect with this with MBAA's new mechanics.
-full moon characters do not activate often and half moon does not activate at all
-full moon characters can reversal can IH on block in the same situations that they can activate, which may or may not be a stronger option for them
-generally speaking, less characters (in proportion to each game's number of characters) have reversals.
-shield is massively nerfed, which may or may not make people more willing to just block.
-air dodge (h and c only) is another movement mechanic that can make a sandoori possible.

somewhat important to know, because another main reason that sandoori was so effective is because america hates blocking and is reversal-happy.
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Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2009, 04:52:08 PM »
THUNDER DRIFT

...let's see who figures it out first.
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Offline ElderGOD

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2009, 04:52:01 AM »
From my experience, it seems like its much easier to perform the sandoori motion in mbaa than it was in previous games. Not sure if thats actually true, i just know my success rate shot up to like 95%(and i dont practice the motion lol)
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Offline Irysa

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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2009, 08:48:02 PM »
THUNDER DRIFT

...let's see who figures it out first.
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Re: What's a sandoori?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2009, 11:08:46 PM »
From my experience, it seems like its much easier to perform the sandoori motion in mbaa than it was in previous games. Not sure if thats actually true, i just know my success rate shot up to like 95%(and i dont practice the motion lol)

I feel this way too I was like holy crap it all makes sense now.