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Atlas Academy => Melty Blood: Current Code => Kohaku => Topic started by: Frost on January 03, 2012, 11:45:56 AM

When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
Title: C-Amber
Post by: Frost on January 03, 2012, 11:45:56 AM
So who else uses Crescent style Kohaku Amber.

I like how I can combo her 3 katana moves and I can charge 22A..
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: UisZtupid on January 03, 2012, 06:48:58 PM
C-Kohaku still has her old combos from Act Cadenza which I really like. Cept her 2b in Act Cadenza is split into 2b2b now. Still able to do the BnB

Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Frost on January 03, 2012, 07:39:36 PM
Also her 5C is also split in 2 and she can jump cancel out of her 236B and combo off her 236AA
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Pfhor on January 03, 2012, 09:29:39 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16573348 start grinding this shit man, all of these combos (except the BE4b x3 one) are practical and very damaging. I think you can end all of the ones that end in 2c with an added BE4b otg relaunch assuming you haven't used all of the ground bounces.
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Setsu on January 04, 2012, 03:46:58 PM
So I haven't played this game since MBAC, I used to play Kohaku back then and would like to do so again in AA but I'm finding her combos to be ridiculously hard. Now I understand this character is totally different from AC and is really execution heavy now, but I've been practicing for days with 0 progress, always getting stuck on the same parts. I think my main problem is the battou feint, I either do it too late and can't followup or get 236c and ruin the whole combo (this happens a lot btw, especially after 236a).

I must be doing something wrong but I'm not quite sure what? Am I supposed to press BC at the same time or is B pressed slightly earlier? Any help would be highly appreciated.
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: fiendmaw on January 04, 2012, 04:57:07 PM
You dont have to press B and C at the same time,you can piano B and C and you wont get the ex cancel.
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Setsu on January 04, 2012, 07:30:01 PM
Yes I've been doing that but when I do B then C I can never 2a on time, am I just too slow on the 236bc?
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Frost on January 05, 2012, 09:32:34 AM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16573348 start grinding this shit man, all of these combos (except the BE4b x3 one) are practical and very damaging. I think you can end all of the ones that end in 2c with an added BE4b otg relaunch assuming you haven't used all of the ground bounces.
Those combos were  ;D

off grinding, alot of grinding.
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Pfhor on January 06, 2012, 09:15:44 AM
I have recently aquired the ps2 iso again so I'm going to show off some of the changes to ckohaku's hitboxes (only showing the moves that have changed). Left one is 1.07, right is Ps2.

5a
http://sadpanda.us/images/802232-Y870S2B.png

Nerfed quite a bit, not as good an antiair anymore

2c
http://sadpanda.us/images/802233-IB2OCL3.png

BE2c
http://sadpanda.us/images/802235-Z5OR3AV.png

Mixed bag, the higher height of the red makes her battou combo easier to pull off at more ranges, but it doesn't have as much low profile as it did.

j.A
http://sadpanda.us/images/802236-QCWXXYY.png

Pretty big nerf, it used to crossup often against extended hitboxes now it won't as much or ever.

j.B
http://sadpanda.us/images/802237-K1EL6D7.png

A very subtle change, there's more green box around her feet. Not going to affect much.

j.C
http://sadpanda.us/images/802238-4WER92N.png

An actual buff! Has a tiny bit more potential to stuff antiairs now.



Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: fiendmaw on January 07, 2012, 06:25:18 AM
I wanted to ask,is there ANY reason to not go for the BEj.C combo?
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Pfhor on January 07, 2012, 01:44:45 PM
I wanted to ask,is there ANY reason to not go for the BEj.C combo?

Outside of the corner, I can't think of any reason to do other combos. Inside the corner she has other combos that do more damage and she can end them with j.[c] for hard knockdown though.
Title: Re: C-Kohaku
Post by: Frost on January 08, 2012, 01:53:12 PM
I'm suffering with 2A>2B>2B>4B>2C>5C>5C(for 1 hits)>236A>2A>2C>5C>5C(for 1 hits)>236A>2A>2C

I can't get the red part  :(

Any tips
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Pfhor on January 08, 2012, 05:14:40 PM
Ok I have been using this as my midscreen bnb that ends up in the corner after the j.[c]. It does almost exactly 5k damage on Akiha:

2aa 2b 4b 5cc(3 hits) 236b BEj.c 2c 5c BE5b 2b 4b 236a 236b~c 5a/2a 5c BE5b 4b 2c 236bc

From there you can do either:

otg BE4b into plant (your choice, any except johnny will work fine)
otg BE4b 6c 236a 236b 236c
otg BE4b 5cc BE236b into johnny


This combo is almost universal, there are 3 characters you have to adjust on, and 2 it's impossible on.

Replace the red 2b 4b part with simply 4b on:
Wara
Sakiha
Ries (you CANNOT do otg BE4b on her)
Len (this combo is way too hard to do on her, I recommend doing the one listed below instead)

Combo does not work on:
Neco Arc
Neco Arc Chaos

For timing the normal combo, make sure that they are as low as possible after the ground bounce from BEj.c, dash forward a little bit to time it right. For the altered characters, ensure they are as high as possible but still at a distance where 2c 5c BE5b will combo.

For len, use this combo that ends in the same knockdown for less damage (well, "more damage" because Len's defense is awful):

2aa 2b 4b 5cc (1-3 hits) 236b BEj.C 2c 5cc(1-3 hits) 236a 236b~c 5a/2a 5c BE5b 4b 2c 236bc BE4b

The anywhere combo works on necos, that's the only thing I can think of to use on them. You have to neutral jump the BEj.c if you are in the corner to ensure that it will hit:

2a 2b 4b 5cc (1-3 hits) BEj.c 2c 5c (1-3 hits) 236a 236b~c 2a 2c 5cc 236bb 2c 22b

I'm suffering with 2A>2B>2B>4B>2C>5C>5C(for 1 hits)>236A>2A>2C>5C>5C(for 1 hits)>236A>2A>2C

I can't get the red part  :(

Any tips

After the 2c, you have to delay the 5c a little bit so that the opponent is lower to the ground, then you have to make sure that the 5cc carries them high enough so that when you 236a 236B~C they fall for enough time for your 2a to catch them. If you carry them too high, the 236a will whiff completely, if you do it too low you won't have enough time to catch them with 2a.

Don't be restricted to 1 hit on 5cc, use as many hits as you need to get them at the right height while avoiding the last hit which will ruin the combo.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Setsu on January 09, 2012, 05:31:53 AM
Is there any reason some jp players like to do 2c after the first 4b? (namely Ieda, but it's also on that japanese combo video) From what I saw it seems like it would do less overall damage so I'm not sure if it makes anything easier or what. Plus he doesn't do it all the time either, I'm confused.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Pfhor on January 09, 2012, 06:17:01 PM
It does less damage, so avoid doing 2c if you can help it, but if you happen to hitconfirm from a string using 2c the combo still works.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: SaruKada on January 17, 2012, 12:52:57 PM
So archetype earth seems to be all kinds of homosex and past a certain combo count, usually by the second rep, ... 5A 5C BE5B 2B/4B seems to stop working altogether.
Tried both:

2A 2B 4B 5C C(1h) 236B BEj.C adc j.C j.B 2C 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236B~A 5A 5C BE5B 2B/4B (both drop)

and

2A 2B 4B 5C C(1h) 236B BEj.C adc j.C j.B 2C 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236A 236B~C 5A 5C BE5B 2B/4B (both drop)

Is it just me failing? Can anybody else confirm? Currently going with:

2A 2B 4B 5C C(1h) 236B BEj.C adc j.C j.B 2C 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236B~A 5A 5C C BE236B~B 2A 2C
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Pfhor on January 17, 2012, 02:30:35 PM
So archetype earth seems to be all kinds of homosex and past a certain combo count, usually by the second rep, ... 5A 5C BE5B 2B/4B seems to stop working altogether.
Tried both:

2A 2B 4B 5C C(1h) 236B BEj.C adc j.C j.B 2C 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236B~A 5A 5C BE5B 2B/4B (both drop)

and

2A 2B 4B 5C C(1h) 236B BEj.C adc j.C j.B 2C 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236A 236B~C 5A 5C BE5B 2B/4B (both drop)

Is it just me failing? Can anybody else confirm? Currently going with:

2A 2B 4B 5C C(1h) 236B BEj.C adc j.C j.B 2C 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236B~A 5A 5C C BE236B~B 2A 2C

That combo is finicky on most characters if you do a full ground string, skip the airdash j.cb and just do dash 2c 5c after the j.[c] and you should be able to continue normally. If you get a counterhit j.b, j.a, or airthrow you can add the airdash j.cb without any trouble.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: SaruKada on January 17, 2012, 03:46:00 PM
Aw but airdash j.CB is so fun to do

There don't seem to be any drawbacks to it when comboing midscreen so I'll keep that in mind for corner combos

Leaving out the airdash j.CB lets me complete:

2A 2B 4B 5C C(1h) 236B BEj.C 2C 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236B~A 5A 5C BE5B 2B 4B 236A 236B~C 2A 2C

quite easily for 6029. I'll take it!
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Frost on January 20, 2012, 03:03:07 PM
Why was the title changed to Magical Amber  ???
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Pfhor on January 31, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1adN01OpDTr__hW8N1yxLT4F-WWeKHXIiw46KUN2P0nI/edit

Here is a collection of the most damaging midscreen to corner and starting corner air counterhit combos I can find, with specific strings regarding each character in the game. Don't even bother doing these combos on Neco. The first ender is used as a base, and the bold parts of the strings are the differences.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Setsu on February 01, 2012, 06:01:08 PM
Thank you Pfhor, that will be really useful.

On a side note, I'm having major trouble connecting the final 2c in the BE236b ender. I can do 2a 2c with little problem but sometimes the 2a leaves them too high for 2c to hit so I'd rather learn to do it the right way. Is this just a practice until you get it right kind of thing or am I missing something? I've never been able to do it as of yet. Any help would be appreciated.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Pfhor on February 02, 2012, 12:27:05 AM
Delay the command followup after 5c let them fly higher and you should have no problem. Just get them high enough.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Setsu on February 02, 2012, 01:05:54 AM
That was it, thank you!

I actually did get the ender right a few times since my last post, but the timing felt really strict. This just made it that much easier  ;D .
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Frost on February 13, 2012, 03:04:07 PM
Thanks for that Pfhor.

Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Yumeru on February 27, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
 :psyduck: I am having some issues getting j.B to work for the combo starter 236B BEj.C dash j.CB as kohaku lands 1 or 2 frames before j.B is active. I am thinking that my j.C after the dash is too slow, but I find it hard to get them executed since it appears that input buffer doesn't work on some situations such as j.C right after an air dash or 4B after 236BA. The 2A is fine for the batou feint since the time to wait before hitting that button is longer (for me) than it seems and there is plenty of time to throw out 2A before the opponent is OTG.

In SFIV they use priority linking to get around these 1 frame exact execution, not sure if there is something in melty blood that can help with this too. Any tips from the pros?
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Setsu on February 27, 2012, 08:52:52 PM
I am thinking that my j.C after the dash is too slow

That's probably it, honestly. That also happens to me from time to time as well but I don't think there's anything you can do except learning the right timing.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: SaruKada on February 28, 2012, 06:31:24 AM
If you're not getting j.B to come out, you may be charging j.C by accident. Try using j.E instead of j.C; the engine will interpret the command as an uncharged j.C.

On the other hand, if you do use j.E, you should delay inputting j.EB after the airdash to connect the 2C on landing more consistently (also, make sure you don't charge the 2C either), as j.E practically comes out too fast.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Cristu on June 07, 2012, 01:54:34 AM
Kohaku's kamone is incredible easy to do.

IAD j.C (press C for less then 4 frame for it not to whiff), then [9] j.AC. The j.A isnt suppose to come out, it will make the j.C comes faster instead. Don't forget it's [9] and not 9 or you'll superjump and miss.
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: sumbody on June 07, 2012, 09:57:08 AM
You could just use jE instead for the kamone. It comes out fast and no accidental j[c]
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Cristu on June 15, 2012, 09:37:21 AM
Corner very easy option:

2A, 2B, 5C, 2C, 236A, 236B
air
BE j.C, IAD, j.CB
land
5C, BE 5B, 2B, 2C
faint cancel
BE 4B, 5C, 5C, BE 5B, 2B, 2C

* In the case the last 2C is whiffing, press it for less frames. It has to come out right after 2B (it still will miss in characters like Len though)
* The IAD after BE j.C has to be a little bit delayed so your j.B wont whiff after your j.C after the IAD
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Tonberry on April 29, 2013, 10:13:02 AM
22a stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZDvfrIYefs

 :laffo:
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Funky-kun on May 14, 2013, 05:48:13 AM
OK, this has been bothering me for a while...

2a 2b 4b 5cc(3) 236b BEj.c 2c 5c 236b~a 5a 5c BE5b 2b 2c 236b~c BE4b 2c 236b~c

From this combo you can IAD and land on either side. The thing is, I can't figure out what influences the side I land on... What I considered:

- the delay between the 2b and 2c
- partial charge of the second to last 2c
- the delay on the feints
- IAD landing timing

I can't come out with a conclusive answer what influences the crossup... I've only managed to do it randomly. Here's a video comparison:

http://youtu.be/kHiyxmKPIAQ

Note that in both cases VSion's body is on the ground on the exact same position during the IAD. Not even a pixel worth of difference.

Anyone has any ideas why and how this works?  :psyduck:
Tonberry, Pfhor, help me T_T
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: TheMaster_Rahl on May 14, 2013, 11:00:31 AM
While I do have room for doubt, I have 2 possible theories.

First, my assumptions:
-The OTG BE4B is what creates the space needed to allow cross-up in the corner.
-The 2C following BE4B pushes them back into the corner.

1.
I believe that this is a glitch similar to ps2 backturn glitch.

I think it has to do with how the game uses the collision box to determine where to put each char, frame by frame.

If you have forward momentum at the right frame window during the opponent's wake up, the game detects that your collision box is on the other side, and so places you there when it otherwise wouldn't.

2.
I believe there might be some really strict timing on the BE4B 2C 236B~C that still leaves space for cross-up.

Similar to H-VSion doing this combo:
2A 5B 5C 5A6AA 6C BE6C 2C 5C 5A 5A 5A 5B 623C > (Cross-up or not)
The opponent is in the corner at 5C, the 5AAA 5B creates enough push back that 623C can pull them out of the corner, but only if you cancel the 5B into 623C before 5B's forward movement.

So it may be that you need to cancel the 2C 236B~C before 2C moves Koha forward, and pushes them back into the corner.

END

Tell me, is it very rare that you actually cross-up? Or do you get cross-up about as often as non cross-up?

The reason I think that number 2 is not likely is this: When you use BE4B (really any move with any char that can do something like this) to create space for cross-up, hitting them with any other move afterwards is going to have push back for the opponent and not you.

I'm like 99% sure that this is how pushback works: The game says something like, if p1 hits p2, and p2 is out of the corner, then apply pushback to p2. If p1 hits p2, and p2 is in the corner, apply pushback to p1. If p1 hits p2, and p2 is out of the corner, apply pushback to p2 unit p2 is in the corner, then apply the remaining pushback to p1.

So after BE4B, hitting with any other move is going to have pushback applied to the opponent, and eat up the space that BE4B created. Indeed, applying collision detection to them will also eat up the space, given sufficient movement into the corner.

Might I suggest that you take only the BE4B 2C 236B~C portions of both the combos from your video and play them back synced, side by side. There is slightly more delay for the OTG on the one to the left, which throws off the sync. Seeing only that portion in sync might give you more insight as to what is going on.

Make sure you are editing in 60fps, so as not to drop frames out of the recording. I know youtube cuts the fps, so I wont be able to see a difference, but you can. If you look at it frame by frame during the 2C, you should be able to tell who has pushback.

Regardless, I'd say that if you want to consistently have the option to cross-up in the corner, just leave out the 2C and end with BE4B.

-TexasTim-
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Tonberry on May 14, 2013, 11:46:41 AM
It's the timing on your IAD. 
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Funky-kun on May 14, 2013, 01:49:03 PM
@TheMaster_Rahl

First of all, I agree with your assumptions.

1.
I am 100% sure that this is not dependent on momentum in any way. If you just jump and airdash and land without whiffing j.A or even just stay in place and dodge Kohaku gets behind them. It is also not dependent on them waking up - you can cross up even after they have woken up provided they do not move.

I do think this is some kind of a glitch, because in both cases (crossup and no crossup) the sprite is in the exact same position. The only other explanation I can think of is that the game uses a measure of distance that is less than one pixel. (This is just an assumption, I do not know how the engine works.)

Also, it seems this is not character specific - it worked on VSion, Nanaya, Kohaku, Nero (didn't try on others). It obviously will not work on Ries because BE4B OTG whiffs on her by default.

2.
I do not believe this is based on BE4B 2C 236B~C timing, because just going for this without the prior combo I can never get the crossup. I also tried doing it from minimum/maximum distance away - same result.

Quote
Tell me, is it very rare that you actually cross-up? Or do you get cross-up about as often as non cross-up?
Yes, it is far more likely to end up with the normal non-crossup in this situation. For a time I was almost sure that holding 4 during and after the first feint gives the crossup (strangely the first feint, not the second one that can change the last 2C pushback), and even got it to work 3-4 times in a row... but then some time after it didn't work out. So it was some other kind of delay/timing I had done subconsciously related to this.

Your theory of how pushback works seems legitimate. The only thing that makes me wonder is that there was no visual difference in the position of the sprite of VSion.  Even if Koha is in a different position, her spacing shouldn't make a difference if the spacing of VSion stays the same.

I did compare the videos in 60 fps frame-by-frame and yes, there is a difference in delay, however I cannot get it to work consistently... so in the end I still have no idea what causes this.

Quote
Regardless, I'd say that if you want to consistently have the option to cross-up in the corner, just leave out the 2C and end with BE4B.
Yes, this is how I usually do the mixup, and it works pretty well. However, this is like completely unreactable under any circumstances and I want to know the mechanics behind how it works. Also, IAD after BE4B gives no option to uncrossup. What I do is jump forward -> 3-way mixup.

Thanks for the input!

@Tonberry

I am 100% positive it is not the IAD timing, although there is a difference in the video example. See arguments in point #1 above.


I'll do more testing when I have the time, and report if I have any findings. If anyone has a theoretical idea, or a practical example, please share. :)
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Funky-kun on May 14, 2013, 02:53:58 PM
Just couldn't go to sleep and did some midnight lab mode. I think I got it. The way you get the crossup is partially charge the last 2C by 2-3 frames.

I also think I know why it doesn't work without the combo - the gravity scaling makes them fall down faster and they don't have enough time to get pushed out completely. (partially charging the 2C reduces the distance to the ground additionally)

They will be exactly one pixel away from the corner:
http://youtu.be/VD_g2ElJXHo

Invisible mixups gogo!  :toot:
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: TheMaster_Rahl on May 14, 2013, 03:21:04 PM
1.
I am 100% sure that this is not dependent on momentum in any way. If you just jump and airdash and land without whiffing j.A or even just stay in place and dodge Kohaku gets behind them. It is also not dependent on them waking up - you can cross up even after they have woken up provided they do not move.

I do think this is some kind of a glitch, because in both cases (crossup and no crossup) the sprite is in the exact same position. The only other explanation I can think of is that the game uses a measure of distance that is less than one pixel. (This is just an assumption, I do not know how the engine works.)

If you have evidence that there are times you do this combo, and can cross-up but don't, and instead wait for the opponent to fully wake-up, and can then still cross-up, I'd like to see it. Not that I don't believe you, more that I want to see it so I can add that info into my MASTER EQUATION...

If this is indeed the case, I see no reason why it still could not be a glitch. It would just not be a glitch involving wake-up times and IAD collision box momentum.

It could be a glitch with the pushback of 2C after OTG BE4B, or, if not a glitch some really strict timing/spacing with the BE4B 2C chain. Something like 2C-ing on frame 1 of the cancel window might be messing up the game's calculation for what pushback is applied when. So it might end up with no 2C pushback, or 2C pushback followed by BE4B pullout instead of what it should be doing. Or it may be that there is some desync with the animation and the collision box, so while the animation looks like a non cross-up situation, the collision box allows a cross-up. (Totally speculation, but just examples that I think are plausible.)

The mechanics of the situation as I understand them say that you should not be able to cross-up there. If you are crossing up, and we can't find a good explanation why, then it's random, and a glitch. In other words, if we can't figure out how it works, then we should assume that it is unintended behavior.

2.
I do not believe this is based on BE4B 2C 236B~C timing, because just going for this without the prior combo I can never get the crossup. I also tried doing it from minimum/maximum distance away - same result.

Yeah, that was my initial thoughts too, but the combo's gravity could be effecting the otg relaunch in a way that is significant. So, I would not make this conclusion with out more testing with the full combo. (Not totally sure that the gravity carries over into the otg relaunch for all chars, but I think it does, since it does for chars like F-Warc 3C OTG relaunch stuff.)

Also, you could use OTG BE4B OTG BE4B 2C 236B~C to get the same effect as just one OTG BE4B without the 2C.

-TexasTim-

Edit: oops  just saw your post, lol. If you can do it consistently, then cool,  not a glitch. So by last 2C, do you mean the 2C after BE4B otg? I always seem to forget that landing can do things like this. (ie. cancel things like airborne pushback...)
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Funky-kun on May 15, 2013, 09:37:18 AM
Meh, I still have no idea why this crosses up, mechanics-wise. There is no difference in positioning whatsoever. Them invisible gaps!

http://youtu.be/2zv7fO2n8Eo

@TheMaster_Rahl

Yes, you partially charge the 2C after BE4B OTG. And it works consistently. So the most likely explanation is that gravity scaling and 2C partial charge reduce the falling time of the sprite and it doesn't fully push into the corner. And the game decides there is a distance less than 1 pixel.  :slowpoke:
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Funky-kun on May 16, 2013, 01:53:19 PM
Added all the notes I had on C-Koha in the wiki, hopefully in an easy to follow structure. The only thing missing now is Pressure and Spacing, but I don't feel experienced enough to write that stuff.

http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Melty_Blood/Kohaku/Crescent_Moon
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Tonberry on September 10, 2013, 02:48:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jnOlDdRchs
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: SEIGI_no_MIKATA on January 29, 2015, 11:19:41 AM
Hey guys - I feel really uncomfortable about Amber 63214C throw. The thing is - ai can do an corner carry throw but not me! :psyduck: I try averything i can think of but with zero result and  its reeeeally frustrating. So how do i suppose to do a corner carry throw?  :nyoro:
Title: Re: C-Amber
Post by: Tonberry on January 29, 2015, 09:23:48 PM
There's a 2f window right before the opponent hits the ground where if you do the follow up it sends them to the corner