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Author Topic: C-Amber  (Read 12898 times)

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Offline Setsu

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2012, 08:52:52 PM »
I am thinking that my j.C after the dash is too slow

That's probably it, honestly. That also happens to me from time to time as well but I don't think there's anything you can do except learning the right timing.

Offline SaruKada

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2012, 06:31:24 AM »
If you're not getting j.B to come out, you may be charging j.C by accident. Try using j.E instead of j.C; the engine will interpret the command as an uncharged j.C.

On the other hand, if you do use j.E, you should delay inputting j.EB after the airdash to connect the 2C on landing more consistently (also, make sure you don't charge the 2C either), as j.E practically comes out too fast.

Offline Cristu

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2012, 01:54:34 AM »
Kohaku's kamone is incredible easy to do.

IAD j.C (press C for less then 4 frame for it not to whiff), then [9] j.AC. The j.A isnt suppose to come out, it will make the j.C comes faster instead. Don't forget it's [9] and not 9 or you'll superjump and miss.
A little bit of console ain't too bad.

Offline sumbody

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 09:57:08 AM »
You could just use jE instead for the kamone. It comes out fast and no accidental j[c]

Offline Cristu

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2012, 09:37:21 AM »
Corner very easy option:

2A, 2B, 5C, 2C, 236A, 236B
air
BE j.C, IAD, j.CB
land
5C, BE 5B, 2B, 2C
faint cancel
BE 4B, 5C, 5C, BE 5B, 2B, 2C

* In the case the last 2C is whiffing, press it for less frames. It has to come out right after 2B (it still will miss in characters like Len though)
* The IAD after BE j.C has to be a little bit delayed so your j.B wont whiff after your j.C after the IAD
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 10:10:35 AM by Cristu »
A little bit of console ain't too bad.

Offline Tonberry

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2013, 10:13:02 AM »
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:34:13 PM by Tonberry »
[01:08] <Komidol> that marisa cosplayer that took my registration was sexy
[15:24] <Rokunaya> i've actually reached the point where some voice actors sound familiar in animes
[22:40] <bellreisa> i'm an insane murderer who is overwhelmed by nihilism but that's ok cause i'm in love

Offline Funky-kun

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2013, 05:48:13 AM »
OK, this has been bothering me for a while...

2a 2b 4b 5cc(3) 236b BEj.c 2c 5c 236b~a 5a 5c BE5b 2b 2c 236b~c BE4b 2c 236b~c

From this combo you can IAD and land on either side. The thing is, I can't figure out what influences the side I land on... What I considered:

- the delay between the 2b and 2c
- partial charge of the second to last 2c
- the delay on the feints
- IAD landing timing

I can't come out with a conclusive answer what influences the crossup... I've only managed to do it randomly. Here's a video comparison:

http://youtu.be/kHiyxmKPIAQ

Note that in both cases VSion's body is on the ground on the exact same position during the IAD. Not even a pixel worth of difference.

Anyone has any ideas why and how this works?  :psyduck:
Tonberry, Pfhor, help me T_T
In Soviet Blood, victory 2a's its way to you.

Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 11:00:31 AM »
While I do have room for doubt, I have 2 possible theories.

First, my assumptions:
-The OTG BE4B is what creates the space needed to allow cross-up in the corner.
-The 2C following BE4B pushes them back into the corner.

1.
I believe that this is a glitch similar to ps2 backturn glitch.

I think it has to do with how the game uses the collision box to determine where to put each char, frame by frame.

If you have forward momentum at the right frame window during the opponent's wake up, the game detects that your collision box is on the other side, and so places you there when it otherwise wouldn't.

2.
I believe there might be some really strict timing on the BE4B 2C 236B~C that still leaves space for cross-up.

Similar to H-VSion doing this combo:
2A 5B 5C 5A6AA 6C BE6C 2C 5C 5A 5A 5A 5B 623C > (Cross-up or not)
The opponent is in the corner at 5C, the 5AAA 5B creates enough push back that 623C can pull them out of the corner, but only if you cancel the 5B into 623C before 5B's forward movement.

So it may be that you need to cancel the 2C 236B~C before 2C moves Koha forward, and pushes them back into the corner.

END

Tell me, is it very rare that you actually cross-up? Or do you get cross-up about as often as non cross-up?

The reason I think that number 2 is not likely is this: When you use BE4B (really any move with any char that can do something like this) to create space for cross-up, hitting them with any other move afterwards is going to have push back for the opponent and not you.

I'm like 99% sure that this is how pushback works: The game says something like, if p1 hits p2, and p2 is out of the corner, then apply pushback to p2. If p1 hits p2, and p2 is in the corner, apply pushback to p1. If p1 hits p2, and p2 is out of the corner, apply pushback to p2 unit p2 is in the corner, then apply the remaining pushback to p1.

So after BE4B, hitting with any other move is going to have pushback applied to the opponent, and eat up the space that BE4B created. Indeed, applying collision detection to them will also eat up the space, given sufficient movement into the corner.

Might I suggest that you take only the BE4B 2C 236B~C portions of both the combos from your video and play them back synced, side by side. There is slightly more delay for the OTG on the one to the left, which throws off the sync. Seeing only that portion in sync might give you more insight as to what is going on.

Make sure you are editing in 60fps, so as not to drop frames out of the recording. I know youtube cuts the fps, so I wont be able to see a difference, but you can. If you look at it frame by frame during the 2C, you should be able to tell who has pushback.

Regardless, I'd say that if you want to consistently have the option to cross-up in the corner, just leave out the 2C and end with BE4B.

-TexasTim-

Offline Tonberry

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 11:46:41 AM »
It's the timing on your IAD. 
[01:08] <Komidol> that marisa cosplayer that took my registration was sexy
[15:24] <Rokunaya> i've actually reached the point where some voice actors sound familiar in animes
[22:40] <bellreisa> i'm an insane murderer who is overwhelmed by nihilism but that's ok cause i'm in love

Offline Funky-kun

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 01:49:03 PM »
@TheMaster_Rahl

First of all, I agree with your assumptions.

1.
I am 100% sure that this is not dependent on momentum in any way. If you just jump and airdash and land without whiffing j.A or even just stay in place and dodge Kohaku gets behind them. It is also not dependent on them waking up - you can cross up even after they have woken up provided they do not move.

I do think this is some kind of a glitch, because in both cases (crossup and no crossup) the sprite is in the exact same position. The only other explanation I can think of is that the game uses a measure of distance that is less than one pixel. (This is just an assumption, I do not know how the engine works.)

Also, it seems this is not character specific - it worked on VSion, Nanaya, Kohaku, Nero (didn't try on others). It obviously will not work on Ries because BE4B OTG whiffs on her by default.

2.
I do not believe this is based on BE4B 2C 236B~C timing, because just going for this without the prior combo I can never get the crossup. I also tried doing it from minimum/maximum distance away - same result.

Quote
Tell me, is it very rare that you actually cross-up? Or do you get cross-up about as often as non cross-up?
Yes, it is far more likely to end up with the normal non-crossup in this situation. For a time I was almost sure that holding 4 during and after the first feint gives the crossup (strangely the first feint, not the second one that can change the last 2C pushback), and even got it to work 3-4 times in a row... but then some time after it didn't work out. So it was some other kind of delay/timing I had done subconsciously related to this.

Your theory of how pushback works seems legitimate. The only thing that makes me wonder is that there was no visual difference in the position of the sprite of VSion.  Even if Koha is in a different position, her spacing shouldn't make a difference if the spacing of VSion stays the same.

I did compare the videos in 60 fps frame-by-frame and yes, there is a difference in delay, however I cannot get it to work consistently... so in the end I still have no idea what causes this.

Quote
Regardless, I'd say that if you want to consistently have the option to cross-up in the corner, just leave out the 2C and end with BE4B.
Yes, this is how I usually do the mixup, and it works pretty well. However, this is like completely unreactable under any circumstances and I want to know the mechanics behind how it works. Also, IAD after BE4B gives no option to uncrossup. What I do is jump forward -> 3-way mixup.

Thanks for the input!

@Tonberry

I am 100% positive it is not the IAD timing, although there is a difference in the video example. See arguments in point #1 above.


I'll do more testing when I have the time, and report if I have any findings. If anyone has a theoretical idea, or a practical example, please share. :)
In Soviet Blood, victory 2a's its way to you.

Offline Funky-kun

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 02:53:58 PM »
Just couldn't go to sleep and did some midnight lab mode. I think I got it. The way you get the crossup is partially charge the last 2C by 2-3 frames.

I also think I know why it doesn't work without the combo - the gravity scaling makes them fall down faster and they don't have enough time to get pushed out completely. (partially charging the 2C reduces the distance to the ground additionally)

They will be exactly one pixel away from the corner:
http://youtu.be/VD_g2ElJXHo

Invisible mixups gogo!  :toot:
In Soviet Blood, victory 2a's its way to you.

Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 03:21:04 PM »
1.
I am 100% sure that this is not dependent on momentum in any way. If you just jump and airdash and land without whiffing j.A or even just stay in place and dodge Kohaku gets behind them. It is also not dependent on them waking up - you can cross up even after they have woken up provided they do not move.

I do think this is some kind of a glitch, because in both cases (crossup and no crossup) the sprite is in the exact same position. The only other explanation I can think of is that the game uses a measure of distance that is less than one pixel. (This is just an assumption, I do not know how the engine works.)

If you have evidence that there are times you do this combo, and can cross-up but don't, and instead wait for the opponent to fully wake-up, and can then still cross-up, I'd like to see it. Not that I don't believe you, more that I want to see it so I can add that info into my MASTER EQUATION...

If this is indeed the case, I see no reason why it still could not be a glitch. It would just not be a glitch involving wake-up times and IAD collision box momentum.

It could be a glitch with the pushback of 2C after OTG BE4B, or, if not a glitch some really strict timing/spacing with the BE4B 2C chain. Something like 2C-ing on frame 1 of the cancel window might be messing up the game's calculation for what pushback is applied when. So it might end up with no 2C pushback, or 2C pushback followed by BE4B pullout instead of what it should be doing. Or it may be that there is some desync with the animation and the collision box, so while the animation looks like a non cross-up situation, the collision box allows a cross-up. (Totally speculation, but just examples that I think are plausible.)

The mechanics of the situation as I understand them say that you should not be able to cross-up there. If you are crossing up, and we can't find a good explanation why, then it's random, and a glitch. In other words, if we can't figure out how it works, then we should assume that it is unintended behavior.

2.
I do not believe this is based on BE4B 2C 236B~C timing, because just going for this without the prior combo I can never get the crossup. I also tried doing it from minimum/maximum distance away - same result.

Yeah, that was my initial thoughts too, but the combo's gravity could be effecting the otg relaunch in a way that is significant. So, I would not make this conclusion with out more testing with the full combo. (Not totally sure that the gravity carries over into the otg relaunch for all chars, but I think it does, since it does for chars like F-Warc 3C OTG relaunch stuff.)

Also, you could use OTG BE4B OTG BE4B 2C 236B~C to get the same effect as just one OTG BE4B without the 2C.

-TexasTim-

Edit: oops  just saw your post, lol. If you can do it consistently, then cool,  not a glitch. So by last 2C, do you mean the 2C after BE4B otg? I always seem to forget that landing can do things like this. (ie. cancel things like airborne pushback...)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 03:31:50 PM by TheMaster_Rahl »

Offline Funky-kun

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2013, 09:37:18 AM »
Meh, I still have no idea why this crosses up, mechanics-wise. There is no difference in positioning whatsoever. Them invisible gaps!

http://youtu.be/2zv7fO2n8Eo

@TheMaster_Rahl

Yes, you partially charge the 2C after BE4B OTG. And it works consistently. So the most likely explanation is that gravity scaling and 2C partial charge reduce the falling time of the sprite and it doesn't fully push into the corner. And the game decides there is a distance less than 1 pixel.  :slowpoke:
In Soviet Blood, victory 2a's its way to you.

Offline Funky-kun

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 01:53:19 PM »
Added all the notes I had on C-Koha in the wiki, hopefully in an easy to follow structure. The only thing missing now is Pressure and Spacing, but I don't feel experienced enough to write that stuff.

http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Melty_Blood/Kohaku/Crescent_Moon
In Soviet Blood, victory 2a's its way to you.

Offline Tonberry

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2013, 02:48:16 PM »
[01:08] <Komidol> that marisa cosplayer that took my registration was sexy
[15:24] <Rokunaya> i've actually reached the point where some voice actors sound familiar in animes
[22:40] <bellreisa> i'm an insane murderer who is overwhelmed by nihilism but that's ok cause i'm in love

Offline SEIGI_no_MIKATA

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2015, 11:19:41 AM »
Hey guys - I feel really uncomfortable about Amber 63214C throw. The thing is - ai can do an corner carry throw but not me! :psyduck: I try averything i can think of but with zero result and  its reeeeally frustrating. So how do i suppose to do a corner carry throw?  :nyoro:

Offline Tonberry

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Re: C-Amber
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2015, 09:23:48 PM »
There's a 2f window right before the opponent hits the ground where if you do the follow up it sends them to the corner
[01:08] <Komidol> that marisa cosplayer that took my registration was sexy
[15:24] <Rokunaya> i've actually reached the point where some voice actors sound familiar in animes
[22:40] <bellreisa> i'm an insane murderer who is overwhelmed by nihilism but that's ok cause i'm in love