F-Kohaku

[LordPangTong]

Kohaku forums are pretty dead, so let's get the ball rolling~

Anyone else playing F-Kohaku? She's a pretty big change from H/C Kohaku. She becomes more of a keep-away character than before, as she relies more on projectiles and that nifty 214a/b/c counter-stance move she has.

Bnb I'm running is:

2A 5B 2B 4B 2C 3C J.BC J.BC Throw for approximately 3.8k or

2A 5B 2B 4B 2C 22B for plant oki

Some minor notes I've noted about her:
-Both her 236A and 236B can be charged and are special cancellable. 236[A] causes knockdown and 236[B ] causes wallslam. (On counter hit, 236 can combo into 5[C] for some decent damage.)
-Her 5B seems to have decent priority over other ground normals, which is great, seeing as the range sucks.
-Her 2B is veeeeery clashy.
-Her 63214C is much less useful than H/C Kohaku's, as she can only do a homerun swing off of it, and you have to time it. The damage is pretty bad, too.

Edit: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8058054 F-Kohaku OCV. Decent F-Kohaku here, but they don't seem to demonstrate many of her mixups or oki powers. (plants and 214 series)

[keobas]

Ive been playing with her F satsuki. Personally I find these character to have an up hill battle against rush down character.

[ಠ_ಠ Dizzynecro]

Anybody know what counter to use to what situations as far as A/B versions?

[keobas]

I haven't really explore the counters but 214A seems to aim for Middle and over heads (high attacks)  while 214b is for low and mids. But the counter activation seems deceptive on activation.

[Shion]

Has anyone managed to perform this F-Koha corner combo:

Dash 5AAA 5B 5C 236C(1hit) 5C j.BC sdj.ABC airthrow

I end up in the wrong place (too high) after the j.BC, and I'm supposed to superjump to get even higher?
Tried it against V-akiha, can't get it to connect. Any advice?

[Espard]

Has anyone managed to perform this F-Koha corner combo:

Dash 5AAA 5B 5C 236C(1hit) 5C j.BC sdj.ABC airthrow

I end up in the wrong place (too high) after the j.BC, and I'm supposed to superjump to get even higher?
Tried it against V-akiha, can't get it to connect. Any advice?

IMO Just skip the j.a cause it doesnt add much dmg and it makes it hard to connect 

[LordPangTong]

Some more notes on F-Kohaku:

2B should serve as your close range anti-air move. It's upward range is really good and it comes out quick. Also, 2B can chain off of 236C (in corner) and j.214a, and allows for aerials after the 2B connects.

Plant Oki: This is very strong. When done from anywhere NOT in the corner, you can get a fairly ridiculous mixup off of 2A 5B 2B 4B 2C 22B. After 22B, you have enough time to either super jump to the other side of your opponent, or double jump/backdash cancel the super jump to make your foe guess which direction to guard. If they choose wrong, the plant will do some good damage. The other okizeme game she gets here is if you use 22A instead of 22B. 22A presents two good options: 1) let the 22A fly off right away and go for a throw or command grab. Or 2), input 22[A] and wait for your enemy to make a move, then release the tree. If it hits them, you should be able to jump up and aerial combo them for 3.6k damage.

Now then, when you have your opponent in the corner, you're going to want to use the cactus (22c). For the corner setup, use 2A 5B 2B 4B 2C 236A 22C. (Cactus will automatically tech punish if they tech.) Because F-Koha lacks a grounded overhead, you're going to have to rely on IAD j.c. Lucky for us, if you input 696j.[c], the j.c won't actually come out, but Kohaku will do the beginning animation for it. In reality, you can land on the ground and have time to go for a high/low mixup with 2A/4B. After the cactus is done hitting, follow up with a simple 2C 22B, then re-apply pressure.

Keep in mind: F-Koha's j.236c adds quite a bit of damage to aerial combos, and should be used when you have spare meter. If you are at the same height as your enemy when you perform the attack, you can even air throw after it for additional damage. 

[Lord Knight]

BTW I picked up KohaF in case I get her in random 1 dollar mm's. She's fun, I can play like a ghetto KohaH.

One thing you guys missed is she can combo off her command throw. There are specific setups though.

If you have MAX, you can do Magnum > Hold A or B or C (this makes her whiff the home run swing on the first possible frame > Arc drive. It'll hit OTG.

If you do throw, follow up with A Plant. You can activate it with Negative edge, so you do 22[A] > (let go of A and hold down B) > Command grab > whiff home run swinging (this happens by holding B) > ]B[ > Aerial.


I'm pretty sure this stuff is on the wiki but dunno if it says to execute it this way.

[Tiggy]

I've looked around but could not find the answer, so I'll ask here.  How exactly does one do the command throw sweet spot hit?  Is it just very specific timing?

[ckosra]

Sweet spot damage is right roughly 20 pixels before their hit box hits the ground, I'd say off hand.

I started messing around with this today and its really not too hard. Basically after landing the throw just press a button at the moment just before they hit the ground, if you do it too early it will be techable and do about 1k damage. As you get closer to the sweet spot the hit will do slightly more damage. It does come down to timing but you can use your falling opponent as a reference.

[Curbeh]

5B.. 5B... 5B 2B... 5B 4B 2C 236A

[Hathor Liderc]

I said I'd write down some of F-Koha's blockstrings, but really it would be like writing down her normals.  If you watch Waka from the recent melty videos you'll see he staggers all day long.  This is pretty common with most full moon players so we can get our psuedo-reverse beats, but Kohaku really has little option for serious blockstrings.  Essentially, you can EX Cancel plant at close range.  Keep your hits to two-three normals and cancel whenever possible.  Because she has no ground overheads, you'll need to rely on your lows and plant pressure (throw in some Super Jump cancels and IAD back cancels into j.C from time to time to keep them on their toes).  

So the pressure game is the similar to C-style, except with a better keep-away?

[CT_Warrior]

Well both their pressure is pretty good, but they're not similar at all. Well, except the fact that all pressure in general is pretty similar.

C-moon has a lot more options.
F-moon is pretty linear since there's no reverse beats, but each move has frame advantage. Kinda like MBAC VSion pressure with more frame advantage, but no special to reset pressure.

[CT_Warrior]

I wouldn't recommend using 236[A] when you have plant lockdown. It's easy to read, and you can't follow up with much afterward since you can't cancel into another plant since a plant is already out.

In C-moon, there's jA 2A and jA ad jB which is like a faster version of VAkiha's main mixup, which is the one I use the most since it's really hard to react to.
In F-moon, you have jA 2A and jA dj ad jB/jC, which is essentially the same but a bit different and harder to input quickly. Do an IAD motion when you're already in the air.

[Tiggy]

This is probably old old news, but I just discovered for myself that F-Kohaku can -- on hit -- command throw an opponent out of the B and C version plants.  And when she does it she doesn't knock them as high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51pIzC4LnWc

[LordPangTong]

That's pretty cool, thanks for sharing Tiggy.

Not too battle-feasible, as 22B and 22C don't usually actually hit, but its cool to know I guess. 

[PWS]

Poison plant also will combo after command throw.

[Tiggy]

Oh yeah!  I always forget about Johnny and the poison plant!

And while I'm here I'll leave another vid link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5oWePiRfEA

Hopefully it'll make ya laugh if you haven't seen it before (which you probably have)

[Shion]

For maximum fun, do a plant into command throw into Arc Drive. Don't hit the opponent too much during the plant hitstun, because the opponent won't fly up high enough and you won't be able to whiff the broom swing.

[AARP|ZTB]

Wow, just read through the thread and there's some pretty solid info here despite there being very few Fkoha users.

Guess I'll contribute some info I attained after messing around on training a few wks ago:

Post Command Throw Oki (Corner)

*63214C>hold A or B or C*
LK mentioned this on pg1 of the thread but I think it's worth second mention: by holding any button after landing command throw, koha will perform the batter swing on the first possible frame causing it to whiff. This is important because it can lead to several different types of setups on wake up. More importantly, the command throw is untechable when the follow up whiffs.

Corner Crossup option
63214C > hold A or B or C> j9
Koha actually pulls you out of the corner by just a few pixels - enough to slip behind the opponent as they are rising. The options when jumping behind are fairly simple:

j9C
A lot like Hkoha jC the hitbox is large enough to strike from behind for a crossup hit. Time the jC to hit deep to discourage jump outs. This follow up can also be expanded further with:

j9C > dj>air backdash [4 9 4 after jC hits] > jC
After jC crossup hit, koha will perform a double jump then immediately airback dash into the corner (using the 4 9 4 command). It gets really crazy because depending on the height in which you connect the jC and I think also when you execute the dj>airbackdash, koha can land in the corner with the second jC OR land out of the corner with jC hitting again as a crossup! The latter can be expanded further with j[c]>land>command throw. A similar technique can be applied to the former of the two possibilities (landing back in the corner) using j[c]>land>2a OR 4E.

Cross & Low Option
j9 > land> 2a OR 5B OR 2B OR 4B
Pretty simple: you land on the other side w/o attacking then go low. To discourage shielding, use your other attack options to mix it up (5B is high shield only, 2B is low shield only, etc.). Only down side is that after landing the bnb they will be positioned out of the corner.

Fake cross/Late airdash back Option
j9> j4a+b > jB > 5C > 236A >236C (2hit) > dash 3C > jBC > sdjBC > throw
Koha jumps into corner then airdashes back out of the corner to land in front with jB. This technique will counter opponents who wakeup bstep  or preemptively guard away from the corner looking for the real corner crossup option. When jB connects, follow through with the remainder of the notation to net some decent damage. There are however some 'issues' with the bnb, namely when 236c hits for only 1 hit (which is rare and dependent on distance). I haven't experimented with this yet but replacing 236A>236C with 236A>late 22C may have some uses for boxing plant oki after.

Retarded IH option
command throw> whiff batter > pause > 2368...A>5E~C
Ok, first to explain what's going on here: Command throw > whiff batter to force the untechable down then comes the tricky part. J236 command has a height restriction so you must tk the command and wait (...) then hit A when koha's feet reach at about head lvl on an avg size character (this takes practice to get the lowest possible height). Then go to neutral and hit 5E (trigger IH) then strum to C. Koha will perform her broom riding special, Initiative Heat then turn mid command, in air, to execute jC. For those familiar with F-Ciel's 'someheat' technique this operates very much the same way. So what this means is that because Koha is turning in mid air the jC must be guarded correctly (away from opponent). The point in which you start to initiate the j236>IH can be slightly altered to land in front of the opponent thus messing with their attempts to guard correctly in anticipation (i.e. holding forward on wakeup). Also, the "pause" before the command is necessary as it travels extremely fast. J236>IH is also a useful technique outside of command throw setups and can function as a fuzzy (jC in some form>dj2368A>5E~C OR B).

Other random options
- commthrow>batter whiff>j9>dj>airdash back (into corner) (sandorii) -- this technique produces random results sometimes landing in front with jC hitting backturned or landing in corner. Not sure of the specifics just yet. Also this is fair easy for the opponent to escape


[Update 12/21]
***Below is a very risky setup that requires nearly perfect timing on the 22A drop! Mistiming can result in being hit by wakeup mashing reversal and dp reversals! Use with extreme caution/GUTS (although I highly recommend staying away from this setup altogether)***
- commthrow>batter whiff>22a or 22[a] -- Koha has some extra options that can really screw with the opponent if they're scared into not moving. Options include: early release (stop poke out), hold and IAD (initiate hi/lo/throw mixups), hold and sandorii (produces various results depending on release). 22A is actually very underrated and I have a few so-so midscreen mixups and pressure strings utilizing A plant that I may post later.

[Shion]

Thanks for sharing. I'm one of the rare F-Kohaku players (or at least, learning her, and I'll see how it goes at the upcoming meet).

I've done some experimenting myself, and noticed that you can do some silly batou combos after random 236a hits. 236a 236c 236a 236c 236b (236c) works if you have the meter for it. It can also combo off 5[C] of course. Timing depends on opponent and distance, and the damage isn't too great. It looks awesome though

Her pressure and blockstrings / guardcrush don't seem to be too great. I've seen Japanese players use 22c -> *charge about 30 circuit* -> j.214[ b] -> land 5b5c22c -> etc etc. Sadly this doesn't work as well anymore, since she only drops 3 molotovs now instead of 4 (I think the videos were from the arcade version).

[neZ]

I only read the top of the the thread and ZAR's commandgrab post thing, so don't kill me if this is discussed elsewhere.

I'm picking up F-Koha for fun and profit. I have a few questions in case someone knows.

1. One of the more interesting things I'm noticing is that you can have a lot of your options covered at a given time. For example, it seems possible, with minimal risk, to toss a 236B as AA and supercancel on whiff to a 214C, Which will both cover you if you fell for an empty jump and, possibly, give you a little cancel that lets you combo more easily/less situationally from air CH (Or at least that looks like what TN is doing, I only glazed over the frame data in the wiki so I'm unsure if it actually saves you any recovery time, so maybe he's just covering his options) You can also throw a zoning 5[C] and, on whiff (That is, sometime before the projectile will necessarily arrive), cancel to a 236B in case they jump it. I've even gotten a pretty strong wall against a situation I was unsure of with 5[C]->236B->214C (Opponent ended up hitting the counter after getting past the other two). I'm wondering if there's a downside to this (Besides the meter cost, for 214C) or if it's less useful than I'm thinking it is. You know, that "Playing people who can't deal with it" syndrome.

2. Another thing I'm wondering is, how does superfreeze work with respect to projectiles in this game? Reason I ask is, in GG (Which I play more of), superfreeze allows projectiles to continue traveling while the game is frozen, which essentially means that you can set up situations where tossing a super to follow a projectile means that the opponent has to eat the projectile if they weren't blocking before the superfreeze happened, since the projectile travels while they can't move. Does that happen in some form in this game, such that I could, for example, sacrifice some meter to get a 5[C]+236C (or 2222C or whatever) trap going?

3. The frame data claims that the 214 counters start up in 0, 8, and 11 frames respectively. Is that the startup from activation (Someone hits your counter) to hit? Or is it the startup from input (You hit 214+Button) to activation (If they hit you, it'll counter)?

4. Is there a trick to getting multiple molotovs out in one jump? I see TN do a pressure game with like... Cactus + TK molotov, but he gets like 3 or 4 out and flies in different directions, and I assume it's the B molotov he's using, but I can't seem to get more than one in a single jump. Is it just a matter of getting a timing down and doing it right, or is there some special thing you have to do to accomplish that (Maybe a double-jump in between or something)

[Skwuck]

I don't play F-Koha too often, but maybe I can kinda answer some of your questions? Though obviously, some others are much more qualified than I am.

2) I don't think there's too much of that. I do know that when the opponent is in a grabbed state, theyre still vulnerable to projectiles (such as Hisui obentou tick throw setup, C/F-Kohaku 22B into grab and plant hits as well for more damage, etc.). This also applies to C/H-Kohaku's 236C, which puts them in a similar state; they can still be hit by her plants while frozen in its animation. So, I'm not sure if there's too much of that in MB, or even if what I just mentioned applies as well.

3) It's startup from the input I think. As in, you input 214A, it takes 13 frames to come out, B version takes 8, and C has no startup. From there, if the opponent's attack hits during the active frames, then the attack will come out, though how fast that part comes out I don't know, or the recovery if the counter lands/whiffs, so someone will have to help out there, sorry.

4) To get out more than one molotov out of her j214B, hold down B for more molotovs, up to 3 of them if I remember right. Also, after her j214B, I'm pretty sure you keep whatever air options you have left. So you can do a TK molotov (which imo is tricky/hard), which will use up a jump, and the immediately after you can jump and/or airdash.

As for 1, I havent used her enough to tell. But I hope this helped out some.

[neZ]

2. Erm, so no? I'm not sure if you've definitively answered my question.

3. Cool, that's what I figured. Thanks.

4. Oh man, I never check hold-button properties. Thanks.

[abitofBaileys]

I switched to F-Kohaku because she just... has it all?
Projectiles, counters, zoning, damage, reflectors.