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Author Topic: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version  (Read 23804 times)

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Offline Press

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2009, 05:52:44 PM »
F-Len corner loop:

2B 623B j.7 66 AT [land 3C delay 623B j.8 AT] x n (until you drop it, basically)

You can also start with 3C 623B, add 5B before 2B, and the like.  the delay between 3C and 623B is larger than you think.  J.7 66 means jump away and IMMEDIATELY airdash at them.  j.8 means jump straight up and IMMEDIATELY airthrow.

Now is that an IAD? Like a 676 IAD? I've been trying to do that combo, but seemed like it doesn't work. I'll try that later when I have time. Once I figure it out, I'll edit the my first post and stick in a bit of pointers that go with it.
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Offline Press

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2009, 08:21:52 AM »
Well, after some testing with Tare, we've discovered somethings about that F-Len corner loop. First, you can't really do more than like 3 reps since after that you're too far to continue. Second, we figured a different string which is not only easier to do, but also does more damage than just doing the loop 3 times.

(5a) 5c(4-5) 3c xx 623a 696 AT 3c 623b 9 AT 3c 623b 9 j.ab j.bc AT

Currently, I'm not sure if you can hit them with the j.a It seems like they tech too fast, so you might only wanna do one loops instead of 2. Honestly, I wouldn't spend too much time on this combo since it doesn't do a whole lot more of damage and is kinda difficult to do in a match since you have to be close to them and in the corner. F-Len doesn't really hit people that often with a 2a or 5a into 5c. Usually it's something like 5b which pushes you too far for the combo. Though it is nice to know this combo to be flashy  ;D
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Offline f-wlen ice loop

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2009, 05:14:35 AM »
there's a vid of a geesendou player doing it more than 3 times, so i dunno what you're talking about
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Offline Press

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2009, 06:10:06 AM »
there's a vid of a geesendou player doing it more than 3 times, so i dunno what you're talking about
I've seen that video which was one of the reasons I picked up F-Len lol

I can do a third rep, just that there's nothing I can do after and it doesn't do much extra damage. With only 2 reps, it looks possible to do a quick j.a into aircombo for more damage. I don't know about the arcade version, but in the Ps2 version, they tech real fast after just the second loop so doing a 3rd rep can't get you the air combo which does more damage than if you were to just do 3 reps. At the moment, I don't have that much time to work out the combo to see if I can link the j.a after 2 reps, but when I do, I'll see if I need to adjust anything for the j.a to hit.
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Offline Ultima66

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2009, 11:35:13 AM »
there's a vid of a geesendou player doing it more than 3 times, so i dunno what you're talking about
I've seen that video which was one of the reasons I picked up F-Len lol

I can do a third rep, just that there's nothing I can do after and it doesn't do much extra damage. With only 2 reps, it looks possible to do a quick j.a into aircombo for more damage. I don't know about the arcade version, but in the Ps2 version, they tech real fast after just the second loop so doing a 3rd rep can't get you the air combo which does more damage than if you were to just do 3 reps. At the moment, I don't have that much time to work out the combo to see if I can link the j.a after 2 reps, but when I do, I'll see if I need to adjust anything for the j.a to hit.
You could always turn it on Arcade Balance to make sure it's the game being different and it's not just you doing something wrong.

Offline Benny1

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2009, 08:33:40 PM »
Cool thing about F-Len:

Off of a throw, you can do
throw 5A 2B 5A 2B
on some characters, if you hold 6 the entire time so you walk forwards in any extra frames, you can do
throw [6] 5A 2B 5A 2B 5A 2B
Off of this you can toss a 236A late as a meaty, wait and toss out a 214A, toss out a 214B immediately, do 5C or 623A and combo, or dash in and do WHICH WAY mixups.  The which way mixups are probably weak but this is just a cool little trick that's a lot of fun to do.
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2009, 02:11:22 PM »
Quote
2b xx 4b 2a(wiff) AT [6aaa 2a(wiff) AT] x2 6aaa j.bc j.bc AT
Corner combo. Hard as fuck for moderate damage. Wheeeee
Not even sure it works on the entire cast. At least it's meterless.

This really isn't that hard, I got it down fairly consistently in somewhere between 1 1/2-2 hours practicing it on Vsion(omitting last jb).   Can you go into this off of shield counter?  

EDIT: ffffff this is hype http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHJqKY6pNKs
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 04:57:07 PM by Tonberry »
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Offline Tiggy

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2009, 06:41:58 PM »
Between Rakuchan and the player in the vid linked below, I think I wanna learn a little H-Len:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pv-HfCs5LkI

I was going to ask what were the normals used in the first match for that near airtight blockstring in the corner, but that'll just give me even more incentive to figure it out on my own first
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Offline PHauxE

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2010, 06:09:50 AM »
Holy shit that blockstring o. o...

It looks almost improvised the way he was using it throughout the match, but the first time he uses it roughly notates into : 5a 6a 5c(2) 2a 5c(2) 3c 4b 2a 5a 6a 3c 5c(2) 5a 6a 2a 5a 6a 3c

It also looks hype as hell.
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2010, 01:22:59 PM »
Throw into corner 5a(2) 5c(4) j.bc j.bc does 1803 damage on Vsion fully reduced and gives H-Len 46.5 meter and gives Vsion 19.7 meter

Throw into corner 5a6a airthrow [5a6aa 2a whiff airthrow] x 3 does 1933 damage on Vsion fully reduced and gives H-Len 52.5 meter and gives Vsion 43.0 meter

Throw into corner 2b 4b 2a whiff airthrow [5a6aa 2a whiff airthrow] x 3 5a6aa airthrow does 2283 damage on Vsion fully reduced and gives H-Len 71.2 meter but gives Vsion ~80 meter(wtf?)

Edit: Forgot to add, but Len can catch anyone with 3c off a midscreen throw. To the best of my knowledge, F-Len is the only one that can do a semi combo off a throw into 3c with 623a j.b double jump. j.b j.c

Old but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJMuOjo4VEM#t=7m51s
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Offline lain102300

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2010, 11:27:44 AM »
At first, I really thought they took the nerf bat to len, but all in all, it could be a lot worse.

The loss of two black cat zoning is mitigated by the fact that you can have 3 cats total on the field. Namely, you can have 1 black cat and 2 Neco-Arc cats out at the same time. In MBAC, you could only have 2 cats out total in the field (i.e. 1 black cat, 1 neco-arc cat; 2 neco-arc cat, etc). This leads to some pretty cute field movement.

Neco-Arc cat is really awesome at shutting down jump-ins. You can pretty much make your way across the whole screen by laying down a black cat and following just ahead of it and laying down rocket cat as you move forward. If they try to SJ or jump-in on you, you can hope the rocket cat hits, or just backdash behind the black cat.

Problem is that she can't deal damage and dies without cats on the field. Reeze Baife in particular just kills len. Her long air-to-ground normals make it hard as hell to lay down a cat and you can't catwalk under her j.c either.

Offline Mistwraith

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2010, 07:33:44 PM »
Usually against Ries, I don't find her that threatening. Len has good air to ground options and can keep ries from moving for quite a while. Depending on the modes you chose, she has good options to go up close and irritate the hell out of people.

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2010, 08:20:02 PM »
Despite the fact that she can throw out 3 different cats, it doesn't really help the nerf she has on not being able to place 2.

Double black cat was extremely useful for ground zoning and if you get the chance, having them walk in different directions can really limit your opponents movement. Having her recovery retardedly increased makes it hard for one to put down cats at all. Since people who have Len match up experience can guess when one would put down a cat, they can rush down on you and punish before you can even get a chance to block.

Can't really explain well, but I just feel that not being able to have that second cat really makes it harder to zone with her. I guess that increased recover might also have something to do with it.
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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2010, 09:21:52 AM »
melty bread is being dumb.

edit: It helps if you approach len (h moon at least) from a different perspective than zoning with cats.

H-Len has amazing staggers and pressure options once she gets in, and strong zoning options in her j.236a/b.  The fact they gave Len more recovery time on setting a black cat is all the more reason to not depend on it  (If you do a combo to airthrow midscreen and setup a black cat, your opponent can tech towards you and grab before the cat gets active frames.)

@lain : There's a lot of tricky/silly options you can do with midscreen 214c, starting with it being a ghetto antiair.  The biggest problems with it is that it's hard to confirm off of the second hit, and you dont really get any damage or setups off of it either.

Something else I've been messing around with recently is ending small pressure strings with 214c.  Short strings like 2a 5c(2) 214c generates enough pushback to dodge faster pokeouts like 2a, and vs longer sweeps, the 214c is persistent, so you should be able to stay ahead (I need to test this stuff more though...)

You'd think 214c would be good for oki, but midscreen they can backdash out of it (you can't bait it and punish with tk.236a because of recovery time), and really, why would you want to waste your opportunity of getting in on somebody when you're already working extremely hard to get in on most of the cast.

214c in the corner though is strong.  Try to end strings with untech enders (like 5c(2) 5a6a 2b 5b 4b tk.214[ b] sj.bc6e land 5a 2b) into 214c oki.  You get a free grab attempt, because if your opponent tries to break it, the second hit of 214c meaties them after the break.  It also allows you to set up for fuzzy b/c tincat covers disrespect from your opponent.

You can try for 214c corner oki after a full airstring, and even after otg, but be aware that your opponent gets 2 chances to tech, and if he techs forward on either opportunity, the game goes back to neutral with your back to the wall if he techs after airthrow, and if he techs after 5b otg, you're eating a combo.

Speaking of otgs... Has anybody found any good ones?  I've seen some people mess around with like 2a 5c(2) 5b 2b or something to that effect, but it never really seems solid.  I don't see any good Len mains try to do that kind of stuff...

As far as damage is concerned, you're not going to be hitting massive 5k+ damage combos all game, but it's not like she has really shitty damage (I'm looking at you koha-mech.)  Any full combos I'm hitting are averaging around 4k+ damage, which isn't bad.  Once you have control, you have a really strong mixup game in your fuzzy and corner which ways.

I dont think the corner crossups have been mentioned here either.  If you do a combo to ex ice (stuff > 3c 236c), you follow up with 236[a] 2c(whiff).  The 2c pushes your opponent out of the corner a bit, at which point you can run sj dj 4a+b.  If you do the motion fast enough, your opponent wont have much time to recognize which way Len is facing, and you come down on them forcing them to block the other direction.  Other options include sidestepping through your opponent, and airdodging over them.

To keep your opponent on their toes w/ the mixup, instead of running 2c(whiff) at the end, run 3c(whiff).  3c(whiff) doesn't push them out of the corner, and you run similar setups which now confuse your opponent as to what the hell is going on.

vs Ries, you have to be patient.  She flat out outranges you on most moves, except for your j.236a/b.  Punish bad jumpins with 5c (but be careful that they don't bait it!) and zone with j.236a.  Once you get a hit, get in asap on Ries, you don't want her to breathe.  Be sure to watch Ries's meter though, so you don't eat 623c.  Once you've got control, it's just business like usual.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 01:38:30 PM by PHauxE »
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Offline Press

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2010, 03:17:48 PM »
Speaking of otgs... Has anybody found any good ones?  I've seen some people mess around with like 2a 5c(2) 5b 2b or something to that effect, but it never really seems solid.  I don't see any good Len mains try to do that kind of stuff...

Most JP players I've seen would rather punish potential tech rather than run in for the otg. They simply use 5b since they can punish tech on reaction and just throw out 5b for extra damage without having to move if they no tech.

I dont think the corner crossups have been mentioned here either.  If you do a combo to ex ice (stuff > 3c 236c), you follow up with 236[a] 2c(whiff).  The 2c pushes your opponent out of the corner a bit, at which point you can run sj dj 4a+b.  If you do the motion fast enough, your opponent wont have much time to recognize which way Len is facing, and you come down on them forcing them to block the other direction.  Other options include sidestepping through your opponent, and airdodging over them.

Actually, the one I use is 236c 236{a} 2b 421a/b (hold a/b until wakeup). It's an easy cross up that I've seen Yoshino use a couple times. Though I'll try out the one you mentioned when I have time.

Punish bad jumpins with 5c

.... 5c does not win against Ries j.c or j.b
Infact 5c is a bad anti air in general, never was in the first place and even worse now that it no longer has it's ridiculous amount of clash frames.
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Offline PHauxE

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2010, 03:49:13 PM »
.... 5c does not win against Ries j.c or j.b
Infact 5c is a bad anti air in general, never was in the first place and even worse now that it no longer has it's ridiculous amount of clash frames.

I'll have to disagree with you here.  The angles it covers and being air unblockable to prevent chicken block shenanigans makes it a decent antiair.  It doesn't beat out Ries j.c though, you're right about that.  However, I said use it to punish poorly spaced aerials and to be careful, not to throw it out as an auto win vs air moves (because it certainly can't do that.)

And as far as teleport gimmicks go, they're beatable on reaction.  You have too much recovery time from the teleport to doing a move in order for it to be effective.  You can however use 421c and get fuzzy off of it if you space it correctly (since 421c lets you actually do a move out of it in time for it to be useful.)
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Offline lain102300

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2010, 04:08:35 PM »
5c as an anti-air is pretty limited. 5c and 5a do ok in shutting down IAD pressure if you telegraph it correctly. But catwalk shuts down IAD pressure too and both are equally risky. On neutral or super jump, I wouldn't risk it. If you're going to mash 5c on half-moon as an anti-air, you might as well mash shield and bank on the auto-counter.

Quote
edit: It helps if you approach len (h moon at least) from a different perspective than zoning with cats.

H-Len has amazing staggers and pressure options once she gets in, and strong zoning options in her j.236a/b.

I haven't tried her j.236 options very much but it does sound good. Zoning w/o cats though, even if it's just one black cat, is really hard. Len has no effective way to keep people out once they get in. She has crappy normals, lousy DP, and no range to speak of. So you can j.236a around to zone, but you lose a lot without ground control. Zoning with Len still hinges on her ability to have a black cat on the field. It's kinda like an insurance policy when you're backed into the corner

Offline Press

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2010, 04:49:06 PM »
And as far as teleport gimmicks go, they're beatable on reaction.  You have too much recovery time from the teleport to doing a move in order for it to be effective.  You can however use 421c and get fuzzy off of it if you space it correctly (since 421c lets you actually do a move out of it in time for it to be useful.)

I dunno what you're talking about, but the a version has very little recovery (almost right as you reappear). The b version has a bit more, but you have massive advantage after 236{a} 2b so you can easily time it meaty.
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Offline PHauxE

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Re: Blackcat Again: PS2 Version
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2010, 05:29:32 PM »
And as far as teleport gimmicks go, they're beatable on reaction.  You have too much recovery time from the teleport to doing a move in order for it to be effective.  You can however use 421c and get fuzzy off of it if you space it correctly (since 421c lets you actually do a move out of it in time for it to be useful.)

I dunno what you're talking about, but the a version has very little recovery (almost right as you reappear). The b version has a bit more, but you have massive advantage after 236{a} 2b so you can easily time it meaty.

The problem is even if you meaty, it's very easy to react to, and since the point of a mixup is to confuse your opponent and get a hit...  Doing things that are easy to react to a good mixup doesn't do.  Len has so many stronger options than that.  It just seems like a waste is all.

@ lain : If they do normal jumpins you have enough space to maneuver that you wont have to use 5c.  Superjumpins work similar to iad because of the angle of approach your opponent has.  Once again, I'll repeat that 5c isn't a cure all anti air, you have to use it intelligently, but it is there and it certainly isn't garbage.  And mashing shield is a hell of a lot weaker... At least vs 5c they have to commit to a move or backing off (or shielding it...) all of which requires them to not autopilot (this is good) not to mention that 5c anti air leads to much more damage than a shield auto counter from proration :emo:

The trick to zoning with her 236 air options is to keep them as low to the ground as possible.  I dont mean tk.236 (although these are very strong too!) but when you're falling and you want to keep the opponent at a range.  Since Len's air normals are still fairly strong to space with, you'll find a lot of situations where you play air footsies with your opponent.  Since you can't do shit after j.236a/b until you land, do them low so you minimize recovery and maximize control.

If you do sjtk.236a 5c btw, you have enough advantage for the 5c to beat out any mash (try it in training mode if you don't believe me.)  You don't need to rely on cats as part of your approach strategy, especially with all the recovery time cats have and how easy it is to get around them.

Then again, I get punished for setting up black cat 100% of the time unless I do an untech knockdown ender, so you can see where I'd get the opinion that black cat is garbage.
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