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Offline Sledeau

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Matchup Thread
« on: January 20, 2008, 04:38:40 PM »
Other character forums seem to have these threads, so I figured I'd make one to share my thoughts on matchups. If you disagree with some thoughts, post your own ideas and we all can agree/disagree, or agree to disagree.  >:D Plus it can give new players some info to help them decide whether they want to play Warc or not. I use a lot of Melty Blood lingo in this and assume you know basic Warcueid strats, so I'd recommend checking the other threads on this forum if you're not sure what me or others are talking about.

Sion: I don't have much experience with this matchup, but it seems fairly even, perhaps a little in Sion's favor. If you're not careful when zoning with bloodrings as Warc, a good Sion can potentially punish one of your landings with a whip then lay on a high damage bnb. Also, her j.c can be highly competitive with Warcueid's j.b. She also has extremely high damage and a great pressure game, so play cautiously and don't let yourself get cornered.
Aoko: Fairly even matchup. A good Aoko can be a pain to fight for all characters in general, but Warcueid has projectile moves with big hitboxes, so she can fuck with an Aoko trying to build an orb fortress, or just lead in with an orb/ex teleport to clear out some orbs while she rushes down Aoko. Aoko has quite a unique mixup game that can be hard to deal with if you have no experience fighting against, however. She also has a very effective keepaway game, so don't let yourself be whittled down by her if she is running that game against you.
Akiha: Fairly even matchup, slightly in Warcueid's favor. Though Warcueid has an advantage, this fight can still be tricky considering that due to Akiha's high defense and higher than average damage, she will be hurting you a lot more per combo than you will her. However, she has no real surefire way to deal with Warcueid zoning with bloodrings other than things any other character can use (shielding or dashing under a Warcueid who isn't being careful). Akiha's pressure can be vicious, but an attentive Warcueid can fuck with the pressure of an Akiha who isn't being careful enough by hitting with a 5c623c or other long range options during a gap in a blockstring.
Shiki Tohno: Even matchup. Though he doesn't have any long range moves to mess with bloodrings, his 2c has extremely high priority and will cut through things like Warcueid's 236a. His j.c also has extremely long range and is nearly level with Warcueid's j.b, and his j.a is nothing to sneeze at as far as range goes too. His higher defense and slightly higher than average damage means he will win a battle of attrition if you both are trading combos evenly.
Ciel: A matchup in Ciel's favor, though a Warcueid can still be fairly threatening to a Ciel. The big thing that makes Ciel difficult for Warcueid is Ciel's 236c. Its a full screen ex that can easily punish a Warcueid who isn't being careful with her bloodrings. If not for that move of Ciel's, however, a Warcueid would be able to run down her zoning game on Ciel all day, so the two characters are fairly evenly matched otherwise. Ciel is a very high damage output character, however, so you don't want to take too many risks against her.
Warakia: A match in Warcueid's favor. Poor Warakia, he doesn't really have too many good matchups. Overall, he's a weak character. Warcueid's blood ring zoning can make a Warakia hesitant to throw out long range attacks and force him to eat your blockstrings. Be careful when you're on the ground versus him, however, as his cape attacks hit more often than your 5c or 5b generally will. His damage output is fairly mediocre, so even if he does catch you making a mistake in your pressure, he hurts you just as much as you would hurt him.
Nanaya: A fairly even matchup. This is another character Warcueid can run her blood ring zoning game all day on, but if Nanaya catches a gap to punish a mistake in zoning, IT HURTS. His j.c has an extremely long downwards vertical range so he can easily catch you if he's above you in the air, and he can catch you during a move recovery while you're on the ground and he's in the air. Certainly an even and winnable match, but you have to play extremely cautiously against Nanaya.
V Akiha: A fairly even matchup, in Warcueid's slight favor. While you can restrict a lot of V Akiha's movement with bloodrings, V Akiha's mobility also means she can punish more windows of vulnerability in your zoning. While her defense is also low (actually lower) like Warcueid's, a good V Akiha utilizing the 2c623b loop will easily push out more damage against Warcueid than Warcueid will versus her. Still a matchup in Warcueid's favor, you want to play extremely cautiously against this character and not leave too many openings.
Kouma: A matchup in Warcueid's favor. Kouma has high defense, so when he lands his combos on you, he will generally be hurting you more than you would've hurt him. However, he is extremely weak in the air. His dragonpunch moves are extremely effective at stuffing out people in the air, but your own bloodrings are very good against his dragonpunch, limiting a lot of his aeriel punishment options. Try to stay off the ground when fighting him and run your zoning game against him. On the ground itself Warcueid will have a hard time against Kouma with his normals that give him a lot of forward momentum, not to mention his grabs and his ex move that gives him superarmor for about a second.
V Sion: An even matchup. You can use your zoning to great degree against V Sion, but she has the fastest run dash in the game making it easy for her to punish your mistakes. Plus, her j.c is an extremely effective air move like Sion's. A character you will have to zone extremely cautiously against.
Miyako: ??? I am guessing this is a matchup in Warcueid's favor, I am not very experienced with it. Miyako has fairly high damage output and great corner pressure, but she has no real tools for dealing with Warcueid's zoning and range.
Hisui: A fairly even matchup. Hisui is a zoning character, like Warcueid. You will want to be extremely careful when throwing bloodrings out against Hisui, since if you get hit by one of her thrown items you'll eat a counterhit and a nasty followup combo. However, like Warcueid, her damage output is fairly average, so a fight between these two characters can be a battle of attrition.
Maid Tag Team: A fairly even matchup. Hisui + Kohaku is basically Hisui without her zoning but more oki setup options, so expect an easier fight if Hisui is in the lead. Kohaku + Hisui is like Kohaku solo except she has more blockstring ending mixups. Run your typical bloodring game versus Kohaku, but be aware her 5b can anti air above her fairly well and a skillful 2c from Kohaku can catch you while you're recovering from landing after throwing out a bloodring. Kohaku's damage output is fairly average like Warcueid's, but her plant pressure and mixup ability is off the charts. Don't let yourself get caught by Kohaku.
Satsuki: A fairly even matchup. You can easily dominate Satsuki in the air with bloodrings and j.b, though Satsuki's own j.b/c can be fairly competetive with Warcueid's air normals if used by a skilled person. Though Warcueid can keep Satsuki locked down fairly well with a zoning game, the thing that evens out this matchup is Satsuki's high damage output and mixup ability. Satsuki can combo with meter into a 4k+ damage combo off of any hit usually, and she can lead into an air throw which will go into a 4 way mixup. (having to guess high/low and which way she will crossup). Play extemely, extremely cautiously against Satsuki, because once you get hit, you're going to be eating a lot of damage.
Len: A fairly even matchup. Zoning effectively against Len can be somewhat difficult, as her black cats can trip you on the ground as you land from a bloodring, forcing you to begin to eat Len's mixups. A TK icicle from her or a superjump into one of her air attacks can be brutal for you to deal with in the air as well. Also, she has extremely high combo damage, so if you find yourself cornered and pressured by her, you will need to be extremely cautious. However, with her low defense and slow movement, you can zone against her fairly well if you keep your wits about you.
White Len: A fight in Warcueid's favor. White Len is another underdog of the cast, like Warakia. She has an extremely unique mixup game that can make her pressure effective, but her damage output sucks. Its as average as Warcueid's, and the fact that a White Len player will have to change some of her combos to suit Warcueid's weird hitbox is also in Warcueid's favor. Even more of a snail than Len, its fairly easy to run your zoning game against White Len, but be wary of the ice basketballs she throws into the air with j.[c]. However, unlike Warcueid's bloodrings, her air basketballs will dissapear if she takes damage, so if you know you are going to trade with her while she's throwing out the move, hit her. White Len has extremely good damage taking ability, so just run your zoning game against her until she eventually falls.
Nero Chaos: A fight extremely in Warcueid's favor. I just feel sorry for Neros in this matchup. However, that doesn't mean you can let your guard down around him. If he gets his zoo out, he is still a very difficult opponent to deal with. Keep the pressure up on him. Lead in with bloodrings as you attack him to make him afraid to throw out anti air attacks. Use j.2c to hit his high hitbox while he throws out his zoo. Something that screws over Nero Chaos even more in this fight is the fact that your 5a will hit him while he's crouching. Why is that a good thing? When blocked, your 5a recovers faster than the opponent stops blocking, allowing you to throw out a new attack with an advantage on your side. Again, Nero is a good matchup for Warcueid, but don't ever play defensively against him. Keep the pressure up on him.
Kohaku: See Maid Tag team. A fairly even matchup, but Kohaku alone has less mixups than the tag team combo in exchange for taking a little less damage and gaining some other moves which aren't worth noting.
Mech Hisui: A battle extremely in Mech Hisui's favor. Mech Hisui is the bane of Warcueid, so long as she utilizes her TK jetpack moves. She can throw out those jetpacks extremely fast, making it literally impossible for you to do any zoning from the air with your bloodrings. Which, of course, limits you to attacking from the ground, or jumping through the air while blocking hoping you break through a gap in Mech Hisui's own zoning to let you start pressure from the air up close. When Mech Hisui's put the fear of god (jetpacks) into you, she can limit your ground movement with her long range laser and missile attacks. Play extremely cautiously against Mech Hisui, don't zone with bloodrings unless she's showing a gap in her own zoning, and block, block, block and wait for openings in Mech Hisui's defense.
Necos: Who cares? If someone is actually trying to humiliate you with them, you'll find that with their hitboxes the spacing and timing for your combos is a lot less forgiving. Use j.a to keep launching them in the air during your combos if you need to. You can probably figure out how to dominate them yourself if you go against a Neco player.
Another Warcueid?: If you're fighting another Warcueid, try to maintain aeriel superiority. Don't throw out your normals against another one who's running out bloodrings against you. Zone and pressure her relentlessly if you get her into a corner, because a Warcueid doesn't have too many options against another one of her in that situation.
oh yeah and Arcueid: Another even match with Warc having an advantage. Arc has no specialized way of dealing with bloodrings but she doesn't have any serious weaknesses like Nero against her abilities. Arc is also a high damage/high defense character so you can't afford to show flaws in any zoning you do.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 10:43:31 PM by Sledeau »

Offline sovereign

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 09:25:19 PM »
looks pretty good to me, but then i'm not made of strong enough stuff to really know.  GJ!!!

Offline kimjjo

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2008, 06:28:16 AM »
Nice matchup descriptions!!!

My thoughts (emphasis on "My")

- All matchups described can be moved one unit to warcueid's favor.
-- Warcueid has no significant weakness that other characters can take advantage of
-- All her moves generally outprioritize others
-- She has amazing speed in all aspects. Fast ground run dash, fast high jump, fast in air dash, fast attacks. Her play evolves more with the player's skill as movement is so important in MBAC (this is the reason W.Len is low-tier)

- Miyako matchup is very much to warcueid's favor. Miyako's short reach and lesser priority makes her unable to mash warcueid's moves as well as she can to other characters. All Miyako can do most of the time is move around until a situation occurs to her advantage. Warcueid's basics outprioritizes and outreaches(?) Miyako's, and Warcueid can keep up with Miyako's speed.

- Aoko matchup is to Warcueid's favor. Orbs can be easily and safely cleared with bloodring, jb, and 5c (which has enough reach to clear orb and still hit Aoko if she's behind it). But orb fortress situation won't happen easily either as Warcueid's speed can easily run down Aoko. In terms of normal fighting, Warcueid again outprioritizes everything Aoko has. Air or ground, Warcueid can mash Aoko's moves.

-Mech-Hisui is right on the spot

*Emphasis on "My"
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 06:01:10 AM by kimjjo »

Offline Sledeau

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2008, 11:12:56 AM »
My Aoko views are probably a bit slanted, as most of my Aoko fights have been against two people who are probably significantly better than me.

Offline mir

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 09:33:25 PM »
Hehe, regular Arcueid missing, but I wouldn't think she's a bad matchup. Just have to be extra careful because every hit equals corner and that's not a good place to be since arc's corner loop hits for fairly large amount.
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Offline Sledeau

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 10:44:37 PM »
Arcueid's matchup is pretty much similar to the other balanced characters like Aoko, high defense, good damage, but getting hit by her sucks a lot. Arc has no ranged shit to deal with bloodrings (except for arc drive) but she has no glaring weaknesses against Warc's abilities that other characters don't. So its fairly even but a Warc would have an advantage if she's playing keepaway like she would against most characters similar to Arc.

Offline Sledeau

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2008, 11:16:09 PM »
Playing against jiyuna's Nanaya more with a different mindset, I'm finding I'm having a very difficult time zoning him. His very quick movements allow you to quick manuever under your airgame and behind you to punish you while landing when you decide to jump high, and his j.c has such a low hitbox that if you let him above you it'll beat out most of what you do, so I'm just sticking on the ground and waiting for oppenings and trying to sink a 5b into him, occasionally jumping to get away/apply pressure when he's not expecting. Is this the general strat you other warcs take against Nanaya?

Offline kimjjo

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2008, 09:26:00 AM »
I am actually not qualified to answer this question because I get owned by jiyuna all the time, but I'll give my opinion. High level warcueid players tend to stay in the air most of the itme, utilizing her bloodrings, jb, and fast speed. Warcueid does not have good enough pokes (nanaya can crouch and combo off of the only reasonable poke 5c that warcueid has), so I've never seen high level players stay in block. The high level players in the videos I've seen desperately try to get out of the corner and blocking situations more than some other characters. It seems that though jiyuna has great skills both air and ground, warcueid just doesn't have enough weapons on ground compared to nanaya to try to beat him on ground.

I'm not a high level player and get killed air and ground though...


Offline Sledeau

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2008, 05:50:10 PM »
I think my problem is I'm just not iad'ing j.b low enough. There is a huge difference between 696 j.b and 474 j.b compared to 699 and 477. I gotta build dem iad habits.

Offline Sledeau

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2008, 04:27:51 PM »
So, I found out today warc's 5a doesn't whiff on crouch blocking aoko.  :fap:

Offline kimjjo

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 09:14:18 PM »
Geez, Aoko has a hitbox the size of nero or warakia...  :V
Even the warc infinite works only on nero, warakia, and aoko.

Offline Sledeau

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2008, 02:18:37 PM »
5a will whiff on crouching Warakia, however, which means Aoko and Nero have the two tallest crouching hitboxes!

EDIT: Okay, actually trying this in practice mode...I guess it doesn't hit Aoko crouching? Maybe I was stuffing out her 2a's with 5a or something. (ie her hitbox is high enough to get hit by warc's 5a before her 2a finishes coming out) Warc's 5a actually works this way on most of the cast's 2a's...but will still whiff on most of their 2b/2c's.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 02:21:12 PM by Sledeau »

Offline sibladeko

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2008, 09:54:58 AM »
I believe the match up is slightly in 7ya's favor due to his strings, his 2a, and his movement avenues.
Warc is one of the people where 236B stagger bullshit works exceeding well on in 7ya strings.

As for 5a whiffing on Aoko crouching, you're actually part way correct.
Doing a low move that chains into 5a will extend? Aoko's crouching hitbox so that the 5a does not whiff.
For example, if you do a 5a naked on a crouch blocking Aoko, it will whiff.
If you do 2b5a on crouch blocking Aoko, once the 2b is blocked, the 5a will not whiff and be blocked as well as Aoko's crouching hitbox magically extends.
I think I mentioned this on the wiki somewhere.
Anyway, I know I specifically mention though that 5a being blocked has a very different rhythm string-wise because of the hitstop.

As for matchups:
Quote
- All matchups described can be moved one unit to warcueid's favor.
-- Warcueid has no significant weakness that other characters can take advantage of
-- All her moves generally outprioritize others
-- She has amazing speed in all aspects. Fast ground run dash, fast high jump, fast in air dash, fast attacks. Her play evolves more with the player's skill as movement is so important in MBAC (this is the reason W.Len is low-tier)

I'm going to have to respectfully but violently disagree here.
Mosts of my opinions are already on the wiki.

First off, Warcueid has no defense once she's down.
Period.
236C is trash wake up.  Wake up heats you should never really be using, though Warc's will trick people unused to the long startup for a while (until you play someone like Brandino that is).  Her backdash is trash.
Second, Warc bleeds.
Third, Warc has a terrible time against people who can outzone her.  Her dash isn't fast as VSion's so she can't instantly be on their ass all the time.  Ex teleport is her version of VSion normal dash.

Warc's fastest normal is her jB.
Believe it or not, there is an entire list of normals I keep in my head that beat jB; once a character has a move that does that Warc loses a lot of her air control and has to adjust accordingly.
This is a weakness as well, as you've lost one of your main tools.
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Offline sumbody

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2008, 04:36:02 PM »
Seems like the only option when Warc is down is to block since if 236C misses, ouch. Is teleporting a good idea?

Her back dash can still work, although not as useful compared to other characters. Though, I seldom use it.

So far, I think only Mech Hisui or another Red Arc can outzone Warc if both players are on par in terms of skill. But then, I'm just a beginner and my opinion might be wrong. Did I mention I hate M. Hisui and her jetpacks? Against a competent M. Hisui, Warc is severely at a disadvantage since aerial supremacy is gone and playing the zoning game is risky. Ground battles aren't any better either.

Well, mind sharing out the list of air attacks that beat Warc's jB? Useful to know when going against an opponent.

Offline kimjjo

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 08:44:06 AM »
Warc's jb superiority is only valid when the opponent is in the air and warc is on the ground. The great reach of the jb can then be used to SJ or jump jb so that the tip of jb hits and counters whatever air normal the opponent might do.

As for other situations, sibladenko is correct in that there are a whole slew of air normals that can beat warc's jb as jb's reach does not do crap if you can't predict it's tip hitting the opponent (plus, jb comes out relatively slow)

Ex: Ren's ja, shikis' ja, ciel's jb, nero's ja.

Zoning doesn't have to be by strong projectiles like jetpacks and bloodrings. The player's normals and movements along with the specials can also "outzone" people as well.

Through my experience, and not through frame data, I believe EXteleport wakeup can be hit out of. Therefore, bad.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 08:52:13 AM by kimjjo »

Offline Lord Knight

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Re: Matchup Thread
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 05:12:28 PM »
A good way out of things is the B Teleport. Either sheild > b teleport, or if you notice someone jumping a lot during a blockstring (either to go for some lame mixup of to bait sheild) just teleport then.
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