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Author Topic: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo  (Read 18984 times)

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Offline KomagPHL

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Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« on: August 31, 2007, 07:18:40 AM »
The Combo:
In corner - 2AAA, 6C, 4C, 2C, delay 5C (wallslam 1), 2C, 2A(whiff), {5A, 2C, 2A(whiff)}repeat x3 -> 2A, 2C, delay 5C(wallslam 2), {5A, 2C, 2A(whiff)}repeat x2, 2A, 2C, (two options at this point)*

*option A: Flame Pit Setup = 623B, tk.22C
*option B: Extra Damage Setup = charged 5BB, air combo.

Apparently, timing is extremely tight. 2C -> 5C needs about 18 frames of delay (that number seems huge but in training mode what i did was 2[C] -> 5C then i look at the input, see how long i held the button after pressing it again for 5C. this is roughly before the character hits the ground) after 2C before hitting 5C so the next 2C would connect. the 5C delay on the second wallslam is shorter but the hit occurs on the opponents same animation frame as the first wallslam.

Going from 5A to 2C can get extremely difficult, if you hit 5A too early, it will connect however, 2C will never come out. Hit 5A too late, and they tech or you miss, hit 5A just right and 2C will combo just fine.

I still have a really hard time nailing the combo properly, I can get a good amount of reps but the timing is just hard. Timing can also be character specific, the timing is much more tight against Hisui than it is against Warachia.

If I made any mistakes, please say so and I'll try to fix it immediately. Oh and... Discuss!

EDIT: made some fixes and added a bit more detail
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 06:14:32 PM by KomagPHL »

Offline dakanya

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 07:26:33 AM »
I think the reason why 2C won't come out is because if you connect the 5A before the 2A fully recovers, the 2C will technically be in the same chain and the counter won't have reset. You're only allowed to use a C attack once during a chain but this can be reset with a number of things such as jump cancels and wallslams. So you need to wait until the 2A fully recovers.
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Offline AnFox

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 08:30:55 AM »
I'll try and find some vids of where this is implemented so people have an idea.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPWPcEAj9ak
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 09:12:16 AM by ShadowFox »
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Offline Tae Seong Kim

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2007, 12:30:53 AM »
I too am trying to play Tohno Akiha.  She is a fun character to use because of her wall combos.  I made this video with a few whiff cancel combos, but it is nothing special. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NaZNaPd_s-Q

There are some combo videos by Yukinose that you can find on Youtube.  However, when I was looking at it, the risk is not worth the reward if you are looking for damage points.  It will however give you a considerable amount of Magic Circuit.

Offline CloudTK

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2007, 08:26:16 PM »
Really having a hard time timing this, but it's progress..but in a sense, this combo is a constant loop?

Offline KomagPHL

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 04:02:02 PM »
it ends after the 3rd wall slam (see 3 wall slam rule) so it's not an infinite.

Offline ehrik

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007, 04:21:56 PM »
The whiff cancel combo is a great way to get a 22c setup if you end with 623b
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Offline siegfried

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 05:29:32 PM »
hmmmm whiff is great for canceling atks 2c have no idea why i use it so much...
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Offline Tech Romancer

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2008, 12:53:27 PM »
EDIT: Wrong thread.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 12:56:36 PM by Tech Romancer »
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Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »
The Combo:
In corner - 2AAA, 6C, 4C, 2C, delay 5C (wallslam 1), 2C, 2A(whiff), {5A, 2C, 2A(whiff)}repeat x3 -> 2A, 2C, delay 5C(wallslam 2), {5A, 2C, 2A(whiff)}repeat x2, 2A, 2C, (two options at this point)*

*option A: Flame Pit Setup = 623B, tk.22C
*option B: Extra Damage Setup = charged 5BB, air combo.

Apparently, timing is extremely tight. 2C -> 5C needs about 18 frames of delay (that number seems huge but in training mode what i did was 2[C] -> 5C then i look at the input, see how long i held the button after pressing it again for 5C. this is roughly before the character hits the ground) after 2C before hitting 5C so the next 2C would connect. the 5C delay on the second wallslam is shorter but the hit occurs on the opponents same animation frame as the first wallslam.

Going from 5A to 2C can get extremely difficult, if you hit 5A too early, it will connect however, 2C will never come out. Hit 5A too late, and they tech or you miss, hit 5A just right and 2C will combo just fine.

I still have a really hard time nailing the combo properly, I can get a good amount of reps but the timing is just hard. Timing can also be character specific, the timing is much more tight against Hisui than it is against Warachia.

If I made any mistakes, please say so and I'll try to fix it immediately. Oh and... Discuss!

EDIT: made some fixes and added a bit more detail

Hey, I can't whiff cancel. If did all that, and even watched videos. I tried 5A 2C ( whiff 2a/2b and whiff 5a ), and I can't continue the loop combo. I am not a slow mover at this game and have good experience at competetive fighting games, like smash bros melee. Every time i do the empty whiff and try to do a move after, the opponent flips out of it in those invincible frames, unless I 6c or 5c, then it will hit them. But, I seen yuki do all those repeats of 5a 2c (whiff 2a or 2b ) moves, and then keep looping them. If I even try that, the opponent just flips out of it. I've read about this for a couple days now and watched videos, and have no idea, how I'm even suppose to keep comboing. It makes no since, seeing that after pausing and playing all the videos and doing the same thing, my move isn't coming out. I'm playing Melty Blood Act Cadenza Ver b for PC. I thought the PC version was suppose to have all the whiff cancels and all that in there.

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2012, 08:54:51 PM »
you're bad
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Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2012, 09:14:33 PM »
you're bad

I didn't claim to be any good. I understand how whiff canceling works, because mvc3 uses whiff canceling, which is alot, I mean, a ton easier to combo and whiff cancel than this game. I just need a little help. Yuki managed to loop his combos using whiff cancels after each chain. Hey, I can shuffle a 22C real fast a bunch of times without leaving the ground. That just shows, that I'm not slow at this game. Now, I have been practicing the basics with akiha, and can do her combos, jump combo, to dj combo, with a grab at the end. Pulling off 11 hits with no special moves. I can do multiple combos, but, without whiff canceling, I can't do more than that, unless I do her 236 c which gets me 33 consecutive hits if I add it with the combo. But, can you please help me. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and have done everything that I read about whiff comboing with akiha, and even paused videos. If I do it right, then I should be able to restart the combo strings.

Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 09:38:36 PM »
I'm presuming you're trying to do this combo (or some variation thereof):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_W8kgsSSQ

In which case the loop is 2c5c2c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 5c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 BE5b aircombo

Edit: reread the post, thinking...

It sounds like you're missing the combo after the first 5c wallbounce. Here's my thoughts (not that I can actually do this combo):

First off, you have to keep in mind that you're supposed to delay the 5c slightly. In this case your "speed" is whats causing you the problems. Combos like this have very strict timing and it's important to know when to delay your cancels. In this case the 5c should be slightly delayed so that your target is lower when they bounce off the wall than they would be if you were to cancel it immediately. If this is your problem, the issue isn't that your opponent is invincible, it's that they're too high. The idea is similar to Arcuied's wallslam combos

The second problem might be that you don't quite have the timing of the loop down yet. Don't expect to be able to do the whole thing right away. Focus on getting the first rep of the loop (practice 2c 5c 2c 2a (whiff) 5a2c until it works, just that string). Then after you can do one rep, expand to two, then three, then another set of three after the second wallbounce.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 10:06:03 PM by LivingShadow »

Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2012, 09:42:22 PM »
I'm presuming you're trying to do this combo (or some variation thereof):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_W8kgsSSQ

In which case the loop is 2c5c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 5c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 BE5b aircombo

What issue are you having? Is the whiff not coming out? Are you not able to follow up after the whiff? Does your target hit the ground before you can get the another normal to connect? Does the whiff connect?


Yea, I think that's it. Though after my 2c, i can 2b real fast without it hitting the opponent. If I 2a after 2c, even if I stall, or hit it right after 2c, it doesn't work. It either hits them too high up, or hits after they hit the ground.
It's hard to help when I don't know what's failing about the combo.

Offline Numakie

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2012, 09:53:39 PM »
Is that Kouma only? I should try this.
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Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2012, 10:15:36 PM »
Is that Kouma only? I should try this.

See, if this game works like other fighting games, then each character should have a certain weight to them. I am not sure if she can 5a 2c ( whiff 2a ) repeat, to every character. Just like on smash bros melee, only some of the characters can get wave shined by fox ( and it's not many ). If I can figure out if there is a weight to each character, then that can help my timing.

Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2012, 10:17:57 PM »
I'm fairly sure it works for all characters, dunno. I think he just picked Kouma because of a high defense value.
I'm presuming you're trying to do this combo (or some variation thereof):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_W8kgsSSQ

In which case the loop is 2c5c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 5c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 BE5b aircombo

What issue are you having? Is the whiff not coming out? Are you not able to follow up after the whiff? Does your target hit the ground before you can get the another normal to connect? Does the whiff connect?

Yea, I think that's it. Though after my 2c, i can 2b real fast without it hitting the opponent. If I 2a after 2c, even if I stall, or hit it right after 2c, it doesn't work. It either hits them too high up, or hits after they hit the ground.
It's hard to help when I don't know what's failing about the combo.

Well, in this case you don't want to use 2b because you won't have enough time after recovery to get 5a out. Maybe you're hitting 2a too early? You don't need to plink for this. Turn on input display to make sure you're doing the right inputs.

Try practicing this string for a bit: 2c 5c 2c 2a (whiff) 5a 2c
That's the essential part of this combo, if you can do that you can do the combo.

In terms of weights, I think weight is more or less the same for all characters, but some have weird hitboxes. I think Sion or VSion are probably the average and if you want a real challenge use the nekos.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 10:19:51 PM by LivingShadow »

Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2012, 10:22:13 PM »
I'm fairly sure it works for all characters, dunno. I think he just picked Kouma because of a high defense value.
I'm presuming you're trying to do this combo (or some variation thereof):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_W8kgsSSQ

In which case the loop is 2c5c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 5c (2a (whiff) 5a2c)x3 BE5b aircombo

What issue are you having? Is the whiff not coming out? Are you not able to follow up after the whiff? Does your target hit the ground before you can get the another normal to connect? Does the whiff connect?

Yea, I think that's it. Though after my 2c, i can 2b real fast without it hitting the opponent. If I 2a after 2c, even if I stall, or hit it right after 2c, it doesn't work. It either hits them too high up, or hits after they hit the ground.
It's hard to help when I don't know what's failing about the combo.

Well, in this case you don't want to use 2b because you won't have enough time after recovery to get 5a out. Maybe you're hitting 2a too early? You don't need to plink for this. Turn on input display to make sure you're doing the right inputs.

Try practicing this string for a bit: 2c 5c 2c 2a (whiff) 5a 2c
That's the essential part of this combo, if you can do that you can do the combo.

I think most of that combo can be done without the whiff cancel, except maybe those last 2 moves after it. I have done 5a 2c 6c 4c 6c 5b 5b jump 5b 3 times dj 5b grab.

Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2012, 10:47:44 PM »
I think most of that combo can be done without the whiff cancel, except maybe those last 2 moves after it. I have done 5a 2c 6c 4c 6c 5b 5b jump 5b 3 times dj 5b grab.

What I'm saying is to practice the iterations since that's what you're having trouble with. Practice height control and timing until you can get one rep, then expand to two and so on.

Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2012, 10:54:04 PM »
I think most of that combo can be done without the whiff cancel, except maybe those last 2 moves after it. I have done 5a 2c 6c 4c 6c 5b 5b jump 5b 3 times dj 5b grab.

What I'm saying is to practice the iterations since that's what you're having trouble with. Practice height control and timing until you can get one rep, then expand to two and so on.

See, I can wall combo, but not from 5a to 2c if I include a whiff cancel. If I 5a to 2c I have to then 6c to 4c, to 6c, then air combo the rest, or 5b it after the 6c. I haven't been throwing up a bunch of combos at once, because I can do some good ones, I just want to get good at 5a 2c (whiff with a 2a ), then add this to any other combos. But, I want to start from here, then connect more combos later. So basically, I am only trying to practice a 2 hit combo with a whiff cancel at the end, then continue it from there.

Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2012, 11:03:15 PM »
Okay, I think I'm confusing you more. But I'll keep trying. :teach:

First of all: (5a 2c 2a (whiff)) is an iteration. It is the set of inputs that is being repeated and that is what you are practicing here.

In order for this specific loop to work it has to start with 2c5c (wallbounce) 2c in order to get them into the right state for the combo to continue. The wallbounce resets the string and it's more like you're looping (2c 2a (whiff) 5a) than (5a 2c 2a (whiff)).

Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2012, 11:14:19 PM »
Okay, I think I'm confusing you more. But I'll keep trying. :teach:

First of all: (5a 2c 2a (whiff)) is an iteration. It is the set of inputs that is being repeated and that is what you are practicing here.

In order for this specific loop to work it has to start with 2c5c (wallbounce) 2c in order to get them into the right state for the combo to continue. The wallbounce resets the string and it's more like you're looping (2c 2a (whiff) 5a) than (5a 2c 2a (whiff)).

That also makes alot of sense. Thanks bro. Maybe one day we'll have to practice some matches. I know that playing a computer isn't the same as  playing a person. Even if you manage to get a perfect on the computer on hardest difficulty ( level 5 ), it wont help in matches, since computers have bad habbits that you can't learn from. All I can do now is watch videos. I'll eventually post videos after lots of practice. Some people post videos because they think they are good. In a tournament, they would get crushed. I also believe akiha, is a high tier character, somewhere at the top. The harder a character is to learn how to use, the harder they are to fight against.

Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2012, 11:20:54 PM »
That also makes alot of sense. Thanks bro. Maybe one day we'll have to practice some matches. I know that playing a computer isn't the same as  playing a person. Even if you manage to get a perfect on the computer on hardest difficulty ( level 5 ), it wont help in matches, since computers have bad habbits that you can't learn from. All I can do now is watch videos. I'll eventually post videos after lots of practice. Some people post videos because they think they are good. In a tournament, they would get crushed. I also believe akiha, is a high tier character, somewhere at the top. The harder a character is to learn how to use, the harder they are to fight against.

Good luck with these combos and be glad you're not learning Arcuied.

In this game it's not so much how hard or easy the character is to learn, it's about the tools they have on how many situations they're useful in. Most characters in the game are A tier as of MBAACC. If I remember correctly, Ciel was top tier in MBAC followed by Nanaya and Warc.

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2012, 11:31:13 PM »
Good to see that this chara is seeing activity again.  :psyduck:
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Offline TheGimper

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Re: Exploring the Whiff Cancel Combo
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2012, 11:33:06 PM »
That also makes alot of sense. Thanks bro. Maybe one day we'll have to practice some matches. I know that playing a computer isn't the same as  playing a person. Even if you manage to get a perfect on the computer on hardest difficulty ( level 5 ), it wont help in matches, since computers have bad habbits that you can't learn from. All I can do now is watch videos. I'll eventually post videos after lots of practice. Some people post videos because they think they are good. In a tournament, they would get crushed. I also believe akiha, is a high tier character, somewhere at the top. The harder a character is to learn how to use, the harder they are to fight against.

Good luck with these combos and be glad you're not learning Arcuied.

In this game it's not so much how hard or easy the character is to learn, it's about the tools they have on how many situations they're useful in. Most characters in the game are A tier as of MBAACC. If I remember correctly, Ciel was top tier in MBAC followed by Nanaya and Warc.

That tier list is only accurate out here. In japan, that tier list is a little different. Not many people in the U.S. are any good with akiha. Just like smash bros melee, jiggly puff use to not be a high tier character, until she was discovered having potential. Japan has better players becuse they use certain characters more than we do when it comes to this game. Smash bros melee is different though. One of our people from the U.S. went out there and beat the best player in japan, and that proved we were more accurate with our tier. But, In this case, I believe japan has better experience with this game, and understands the moves better. All we need is someone like mango ( from ssbm ), and we will be the top country players lol. I watched a sad match, at one of the events with mbaacc, where every akiha player sucked and they almost got a perfect on. They arn't using akiha right. Everyone is so focused on akiha vermillon, that they have no concept that akiha vermillon might actually be a lower tier character. Combo chains and spacing are everything in every fighting game. Just like a grab. If you can grab chain, then you already know that character has potential. I only know from past experience, and I wouldn't have kept using tohno if I knew I wouldn't be able to win some kind of tournament with her. I did alot of research before playing. I seen her juicy combos and knew something else was going on in that combo for her to keep doing it. It doesn't matter how many hits you can do on a normal combo, it's how that combo will benefit you in a match. Sometimes the wisest thing would be a 3 hit combo. It also depends on what characters take the most damage with certain moves.