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Atlas Academy => Melty Blood: Act Cadenza => Hisui => : AlmightyNam September 03, 2007, 07:34:08 PM

When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 03, 2007, 07:34:08 PM
Okay. I'm assuming that Mizuki is going to wipe the old thread from existence, which means, I get to repost. If there are good suggestions, I'll add them.

Before I say anything else I will tell people my impression of Hisui. She is, in many uses of the word, bullshit. She is most likely the love child of Anji and Ky, having both tremendous zoning ability, good damage, and autoblocks (in the form of clash frames). She also has nice okizeme options on throw or on wake up if they choose not to tech. And they do choose to tech, you have a tech punish opportunity. Plus, she has too many anti air moves that can be combo’d off of. Basically, she has the ability to control the round from start to finish with only a bit of effort from the player.

Okay, Lets get started.

Strengths:
Relative Ease of Play (Little to no execution requirement)
Ridiculous Clash Frames
Good Damage
Good Priority
Good Zoning
Super antiair
Many options on wakeup

Weaknesses:
A few moves easily bara-able.
Pressures… are there… kinda… but not really.

BnBs:
Okay, I stick to three, and unfortunately, I don’t think I start one of them correctly.
2A 2B 2C 5C 6C j.BC, j.BC Airthrow. (Okay, standard. It does about 3k damage, fairly easy to hit with.)

[5]C 2C 5B j.A B C j. B C throw (I believe you can start this from any ground normal into chair, but I don’t know for sure and that’s how I always practiced it. Does about 4k damage.)

Okay, now is the famous EX Dust loop. Possibly the easiest loop in the game with only a very small timing requirement if the opponent is standing.

(If opponent is standing)
2B 5C 623C 5B 5C (wait a bit) 5B 5C 2B 2C 5C 6C j.BC j.BC throw (Okay. The window you’re allotted to hit the 5B again and still combo is pretty small, but it is doable. If you’re not close enough the dust may go in front of them, and then you have to do a mix up or a pressure. Does about 5-6k damage)

(If opponent is crouching)
2B 5C 623C 5B 5C 5A(whiff cancel) 5B 5C 5A(Whiff cancel) 2B 2C 5C 6C j.BC j.BC throw (A LOT easier to do. Does 5-6k damage)

And Lastly, I ended up learning this on accident while practicing the dust loop.
5C 236C 5A 5B j.B C j.B C throw. (A lot less room for error than the dust loop at the expense of 1k damage; does 5k)

Normals to know about:
5A: Good anti air, you can poke people out of the sky with this.
2A: Okay, nothing very special about it, good or bad.
2B: Very nice clash frames, but the real reason anyone would use this move is for the tech punish properties. Not much else to say. If you know where they’re going to tech, use this to punish it.
2C: Standard Sweep, can’t tech from it. Drop a Bento box and have some fun okizeme, or combo.
5C: Okay… it’s the chair. The chair is pretty darn useful, but not without its weaknesses. First it’s unblockable in the air, so if you have an annoying V.Akiha flying around, the chair will swat it out of the sky. Second, it’s got enormous clash frames. I once chaired my way out of Shiki’s ex Shoryuken. Third, its only vulnerability points are at the very start and the finish of the chair’s animation, and if you whiff cancel it, its only got vulnerability in the beginning. If someone tries to stuff it after the small window of vulnerability, you’ll either trade hits, or win. Period.  And lastly, you can make an easy 4k combo from a ground hit from chair, and max 6k damage if you got meter. If you hit someone in the air, you can go straight into your air combo.  Now, it seems like it’s really good and should be used often. Wrong. It should be used only to stuff other people’s attacks. Don’t throw them out there willy nilly, despite what you see in my matches. For one, it is extremely bara-able, which is really bad. If you fight a person who has no good baras, then lucky you, but still don’t use it too much, for reason two. It is also fairly baitable if you use it too much. You can only whiff cancel on block, but if the opponent side steps, or jumps over it, you’re a sitting duck. I am in the process of trying to break the urge of using it whenever it looks like a good idea.
j.B: good poke out of the air.
j.C: Another good poke for a high hit on the ground.
j.2C: Relatively bad priority (relative to j.C), slow activation, not a high hit. You’d think it sucks, but it makes for a great cross up on wake up, and also has some other options that I’ve seen, but don’t fully understand.

Specials:
236A,B,C: EX version is the only worthwhile one(in my opinion), because you can combo afterward if you hit.
623A,B,C: The A version is okay if your chair was blocked, you missed the whiff cancel and you really gotta run away. EX version is the only real pressure move Hisui has.
214A,B,C: Ex version pretty useless, though does a humorous amount of damage to the AI. A and B versions are good zones.
22A,B,C: A and B are bentos. Use one after a throw or 2c for a mix up(or so I’m told) or a tick throw. Very useful. 22C is a chair. In all honesty, I’ve seen it used, but I don’t see how it affects the match.
6C,6C,236C: Three step cooking. If you get the third hit off, it results in a wall slam, and you can combo if you’re close to a wall by hitting 5B and doing the air combo. Charge the second 6C for a high hit.
4B: Watering can. Takes away 30% magic circuit, and if they’re standing, they fall down. I mostly use this after an ex dust if they’re far enough back, because I can eat off 60% meter, or if they’re standing, 30% and then they get hit by the dust.

Arc Drives:
Arc Drive, Satoday Naito FEEVAAA!!!: I don't care what it really is called, the fact that she says that was enough for me to love playing as her. Much like Shiki's Arc, its a get out of any shit you're in free card, unless they're too close and running into you, so watch out for that. Also, if your opponent is in the air, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop being hit, unless they're too high. Plus you can charge it, I don't think its a good idea to, but you can.

Another Arc: Same thing, except it hits more times, so don't jump too early 'cause you may miss a combo opportunity afterward.

Last Arc: You fuck with their controls. If you don't make them eat multiple combos, I'm going to smack you.

Unless I forgot anything(Which, by the way is up to you guys to point out) I think I’m done.

DISCUSS!!
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: mizuki September 03, 2007, 07:36:01 PM
I'm not deleting the thread, it's going to stay there, stink and rot to just remind you guys if you fuck it up again, something worse is going to happen.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: AlmightyNam September 03, 2007, 07:36:14 PM
@Mizuki: Fair enough.

Now, I am double posting to gain attention.

There will be NO insults at all. If there are, I'm pming Mizuki to lock this thread immediately. Its the grace of mods like him that I'm allowed to repost this, and its not going to be ruined. Believe it or not, you can disagree without using the word, "Fuck". In fact, you can even be civil, and post your complaint.

None of us are perfect, and just because you don't use a certain tactic, doesn't mean it sucks. It just means you don't use it. If you don't like the tactic, then beat the player who uses it. That is the most effective way to prove a tactic sucks and no amount of forum posts can disprove that your tactic is better. And if you fail to beat that tactic, then no amount of excuses will save you from looking like a complete dick if you don't acknowledge the validity of the tactic you don't like.

And also, for the record. J.BB is damn useful, in fact, if I just J.BB'd in this match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9-ycOuIg5A) after the saturday night fever instead of trying to finish the combo, I probably could've come out on top.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 03, 2007, 07:43:22 PM
Fucking hell, I was in the middle of creating this GORGEOUS Hisui guide (I mean it, I had images for all the normals and plenty other shit) >_>.

Gah.


Strengths:
Relative Ease of Play (Little to no execution requirement)

I wouldn't say little to no execution requirement.

Ridiculous Clash Frames

Good yes, ridiculous though, Nah.

Good Damage

Yeah.

Good Priority

On?

Good Zoning

Once she gets going, yes.

Super antiair

623+B?

Many options on wakeup

No. No options on wake up.

A few moves easily bara-able.

But not really worth it.

Pressures… are there… kinda… but not really.

??

: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: KomagPHL September 03, 2007, 07:44:27 PM
how exactly are the controls fucked up (last arc)? is it always down is up, up is down, left is right, right is left? or is it randomized all the time? how does the bento box trigger mechanism work?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 03, 2007, 07:46:04 PM
Controls are all reversed, so yes, up is down left is right and so on.

Good question on the bento box tho, hmmmm.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: AlmightyNam September 03, 2007, 07:49:43 PM
Fucking hell, I was in the middle of creating this GORGEOUS Hisui guide (I mean it, I had images for all the normals and plenty other shit) >_>.

Gah.


Strengths:
Relative Ease of Play (Little to no execution requirement)

I wouldn't say little to no execution requirement.
Actually, only execution requirement for any of her BnB's is the dust loop, and thats only if you don't/can't whiff cancel
Ridiculous Clash Frames

Good yes, ridiculous though, Nah.
Every move thats not A has clash frames. Ridiculous, yes

Good Damage

Yeah.

Good Priority

On?
J.B, J.C
Good Zoning

Once she gets going, yes.

Super antiair

623+B?
623 b is not really that good. I meant Chair, standing A, and Arc drive
Many options on wakeup

No. No options on wake up.
I meant opponent waking up. You got your cross ups, mix ups, tick throws, she can do anything, granted theres a bento box or you have excellent execution.
A few moves easily bara-able.

But not really worth it.

Pressures… are there… kinda… but not really.

??


I couldn't think of weaknesses. For pressures, she's got a whiff cancel block string, but its basically betting on your opponent being too scared to try to beat you. Then theres the ex dust... which is 100% tension, and you can fit in 1, maybe 2 mix ups tops.

how exactly are the controls fucked up (last arc)? is it always down is up, up is down, left is right, right is left? or is it randomized all the time? how does the bento box trigger mechanism work?
Its kinda fucked up. Its like, if you wake up on it, it takes a bit to explode. Otherwise it explodes on contact.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: linalys September 03, 2007, 07:54:17 PM
how does the bento box trigger mechanism work?

Proximity is the trigger method. 
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 03, 2007, 08:05:47 PM
Actually, only execution requirement for any of her BnB's is the dust loop, and thats only if you whiff cancel

Don't whiff cancel for the dust loop, just learning the timing for 2B / 5C, you can net a good 5K+ off of it.

Every move thats not A has clash frames. Ridiculous, yes.

I've never had them work in my favor though (save 5B), I'll have to look into that.

J.B, J.C

Agreed.

623 b is not really that good. I meant Chair, standing A, and Arc drive

623+B is really good. It has upper body invincibility and hits twice, and she doesn't MOVE at all. It can be empty cancelled into ex dust as well, and counters some long pokes (like Chaos' shit). Use it more often, but intelligently (like if your opponent keeps super jumping around like a moron, throw this out).

Those other moves aren't so much real anti airs as they just zoning really (standing A is AA for everyone in the game). 5B is a better normal for AA, but 5C is good for catching people trying to jump or back from the openings in your block string (make sure to follow it up).

I meant opponent waking up. You got your cross ups, mix ups, tick throws, she can do anything, granted theres a bento box or you have excellent execution.

Yeah, Hisui's hella stupid when she's got something out to cover her. Go wild.

Unless you're fucking fighting Ciel.

That stupid bitch.

Also you said Hisui doesn't need execution requirements but now you said it's necessary for okizeme?

;p?

: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: AlmightyNam September 03, 2007, 08:13:22 PM
Actually, only execution requirement for any of her BnB's is the dust loop, and thats only if you whiff cancel

Don't whiff cancel for the dust loop, just learning the timing for 2B / 5C, you can net a good 5K+ off of it.

Every move thats not A has clash frames. Ridiculous, yes.

I've never had them work in my favor though (save 5B), I'll have to look into that.

J.B, J.C

Agreed.

623 b is not really that good. I meant Chair, standing A, and Arc drive

623+B is really good. It has upper body invincibility and hits twice, and she doesn't MOVE at all. It can be empty cancelled into ex dust as well, and counters some long pokes (like Chaos' shit). Use it more often, but intelligently (like if your opponent keeps super jumping around like a moron, throw this out).

Those other moves aren't so much real anti airs as they just zoning really (standing A is AA for everyone in the game). 5B is a better normal for AA, but 5C is good for catching people trying to jump or back from the openings in your block string (make sure to follow it up).

I meant opponent waking up. You got your cross ups, mix ups, tick throws, she can do anything, granted theres a bento box or you have excellent execution.

Yeah, Hisui's hella stupid when she's got something out to cover her. Go wild.

Unless you're fucking fighting Ciel.

That stupid bitch.

Also you said Hisui doesn't need execution requirements but now you said it's necessary for okizeme?

;p?

Whiff cancel still does 5K+ with the dust loop on everyone except Akiha. Even if you lose some damage with the whiff cancel, its the choice between a guaranteed 4.6K vs a risky 5K.

and, I see why you like 623 B, but a chair is unblockable in the air, and I can combo off of it for about 2.5-3k damage. I just think that there are less situations that 623 would be more advantageous than the chair , plus, I don't like shoryukens because my execution of them aren't the greatest. Standing A is not anti air for everyone, as noted by Shiki. (Keep on practicing that shin kick little buddy, one day people will evolve so their shins are on their head, and then you can anti air)

And yes, Ciel is a bitch.

And, she doesn't need an execution requirement like other characters. You can still do your bnb's without needing to carefully time your moves like Arc, you can just pick her up, and in 10 minutes, you can have her basic combo down.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 03, 2007, 08:32:01 PM
Whiff cancel still does 5K+ with the dust loop on everyone except Akiha. Even if you lose some damage with the whiff cancel, its the choice between a guaranteed 4.6K vs a risky 5K.

And possibly winning or losing a match because of it, but that's just personal choice ;p.

and, I see why you like 623 B, but a chair is unblockable in the air, and I can combo off of it for about 2.5-3k damage. I just think that there are less situations that 623 would be more advantageous than the chair , plus, I don't like shoryukens because my execution of them aren't the greatest. Standing A is not anti air for everyone, as noted by Shiki. (Keep on practicing that shin kick little buddy, one day people will evolve so their shins are on their head, and then you can anti air)

Chair comes out wayyyyyy too slow to be considered AA, and well all they need to do is iad and jump straight up and there goes that AA. Let them try and get past 623+B empty cancel into 623+C :p. That alone destroys most of Satuski's game.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 04, 2007, 01:54:50 PM
Ok I'll just be throwing things into this thread every so often ;p.

There should really only be four 'items' you should be using when doing stuff-fu (214+A/B).

The one you'll be using most is 2141+B, aka pot books. The book comes out at a low angle, hits twice (once on contact, and a second when opening up on the floor) and the pot travels at a nice arc at nearly full screen. If you're given a chance to do it, super jump and follow 'pot', it's practically free entry on your opponent.

Then you have 2142+A, which is just pot if I'm not mistaken. You should use this every so often after block strings in the corner or when you might want to stop someone from jumping around aimlessly. Please note that this 'pot' comes out faster then 'pot-books', hence it being worth using.

Next is 2146+A, which is just book. Throw this out randomly in block strings when you have the guy in the corner and don't have dust to rely on. It'll also otg. Not sure about it's speed in coming out.

Lastly is 2146+B, aka TRAY-BOOKS. This is your primary spam projectile from a little bit past half to full screen. Tray will fly across the screen pretty damn quick, and book comes out per usual. Use this to annoy your oppent into doing something stupid, but sparsely against characters who can retaliate (even without meter) like Aoko, Chaos, Mech Hisui, and Ciel. Don't use it against Ciel at all, the bitch can DASH under it and her dash will clash with book as well.

You can not control what comes out from 214+C (with no meter) nor can you do it with ex-stuff either. At best EX-Stuff is a decent option for a bara move which can lead to a MASSIVE counter hit stun (they'll be stuck in the air for a good 2-3 seconds).

;p
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: mizuki September 04, 2007, 01:57:54 PM
Hey, a quick question. Is the effect of Hisui's Last Arc just like the same as Neco Arc Chaos' ex dp?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 04, 2007, 02:21:46 PM
Yes, but your circuit doesn't get broken, nor do your controls get reversed.

:P
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: mizuki September 04, 2007, 02:35:50 PM
Yes, but your circuit doesn't get broken, nor do your controls get reversed.

:P

But they are the criminal.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 04, 2007, 02:39:28 PM
Brainwash detective STRIKS AGAIN  >:D
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: Arlieth Tralare September 04, 2007, 03:04:15 PM
Uhh, controls DO get reversed, I thought. You don't get life back though.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 04, 2007, 03:09:47 PM
Uhh, controls DO get reversed, I thought. You don't get life back though.

I was talking about HER controls.

;p
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: linalys September 04, 2007, 03:30:38 PM
He's talking about 623c, NAC doesn't circuit break nor dizzy himself with that move. 
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 04, 2007, 03:44:56 PM
Shit you're right, my bad.

Is his LA the one that does that?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: AlmightyNam September 04, 2007, 04:33:19 PM
Chair comes out wayyyyyy too slow to be considered AA, and well all they need to do is iad and jump straight up and there goes that AA. Let them try and get past 623+B empty cancel into 623+C :p. That alone destroys most of Satuski's game.
You're talking to the wrong guy about this. I'm recovering from the habit of spamming the chair, and I know its strengths and weaknesses inside and out. Its definitely not too slow for an antiair, but the startup is a split second of vulnerability, so, you don't want to use the chair if a V.Akiha is directly above you, for instance, because you will lose. You can, however, use the chair if a V.Akiha is IADing to start a nice air combo. And considering you think damage is everything, chair into air combo/dustloop(if your opponent is unfortunate enough to land) vs using 623 B and then ex dust, using meter... I think I'll go with the chair.

Thx for the Pots explaination. I didn't bother adding it because we already have a thread on it, but I guess I'll add it so it'll be there.

Oh, one last thing, we are only 3 hours away from going a full 24 hours without having this thread locked. Keep up the good work everybody.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 04, 2007, 07:11:23 PM
Ok, believe whatever the hell you want and keeping whatever you want.

I'm just going to shut the hell up from now on and be done with it.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: AlmightyNam September 04, 2007, 07:24:32 PM
Dude, just because I use a different tactic doesn't mean yours is any less valid. On the flipside, just because you like using a certain move, it doesn't mean that my reasons are any less valid. The whole point of discussing tactics is to find new ideas that we never tried before. Plus, I enjoy your critiques of my tactics because it forces me to defend my own strategies, which in turn gives me, you and anyone else reading this a better understanding of how we both play our Hisuis, and the advantages and disadvantages of each.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: F9|Chibi September 04, 2007, 07:56:19 PM
5C isn't a freaking worthwhile anti-air.

Zar and Xaq will pound this entire your head when we get there at this month's C3.

That's all I have to say.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: mizuki September 04, 2007, 08:55:13 PM
... This isn't AIM guys.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
: AlmightyNam September 05, 2007, 04:13:02 PM
Well, it was a discussion on two differing tactics till Chibi decided to get all angry because I continued to disagree with him.

Regardless of what you say Chibi, the chair is a viable antiair. I know this because I've used it countless times for that exact purpose with a staggering success rate. Now, I will concede to the fact that it may not be the best antiair, 'cause certainly the 623+B was made for the exact purpose of being an antiair, but the chair works. I don't think you realize just how long you have clash frames for and how safe you are when doing it. I don't think frame data has been released for Hisui, and the startup is not instantaneous, but if you know what you're doing, its good enough. So far the only people who have ever caught me more than once at startup was LK and Reloy, and LK was because It was a dumbass decision to use the chair to begin with, and Reloy because he plays against me too much.

Look, this is the last I'm going to say of this, regardless of the reply because arguments on tactics are completely worthless because with just forum posts alone, our arguments go unprovable. Chibi, if you're really this worked up about me liking a tactic, then just beat me. Thats really the only reliable proof of whose tactic is better. You're coming to C3, I should be there. If you can beat the chair in the air, then you'll show me the error in my judgement. If you can't, then admit that you're wrong gracefully. Hell, you don't even have to admit you're wrong, you just have to admit to the possibility that we can both be right.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi September 05, 2007, 05:34:43 PM
5C works as AA for you because your comp sucks.

I've gone through all the bullshit you can imagine in terms of working with Hisui in and out, and at best I'm still a bit above average. I was using 5C two years ago because it was the end all of anything in her arsenal. AA, block strings, tech punishing, etc. Then bara-cancels were discovered, then I stopped using it. Then people like Zar, Sp00ky, and Xaq started baiting the 5C and I got spanked for it hard.

I'm telling you this so you don't form bad habits early on. I don't give a shit about frame data or clash frames or anything. It's not worth using. 5B, 623B, or even running the fuck away with iad jbb are better options. I can't understand how you even consider it an AA, but whatever.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 05, 2007, 06:08:34 PM
Dude, the habit has already been made, and I'm trying to fix it. I've admitted to that multiple times in this forum, once even in this thread.

It works as AA for me if you know when its usable. Which, actually, because you said what you said, I realized that, one, I've been unclear what I meant by the chair being an AntiAir, and B, I'm arguing the wrong point about the chair. I've already said this before, the chair should be strictly used to stuff other moves, and SPARINGLY. It shouldn't be spammed till kingdom come, and you will get punished if you do. Also, as I said earlier, the chair is unblockable in the air. What does this mean. If the opponent has used up all jumps getting to youhe's a sitting duck as he lands. Thats when the chair is most effective. What is the opponent going to do? Attack? Clash frames. Block? Unblockable. Air dash? Chair is faster. You see where I'm getting my reasoning? Thats why I've been primarily using it for, but if i know the opponent is going to attack, I'll beat it with the chair. You see? I guess its not(edit:holy shit, I can't believe I forgot to write not) exactly a 100% reliable antiair, but the damage output is nice, and most of the baiting options that people have on the ground don't work in the air, like side dodge, jumping away, bara canceling, etc.

Also, 5B? I know you were just trying to make a point, but that has an even worse startup than 5C.

And just a word of advice when arguing. Back up what you say with evidence, and say it calmly. If you said what you said just now a post ago, I wouldn't have branded you as just "Getting all angry because I disagree with you" and I would've had to seriously rethink my tactic that I was defending. Sure, in the end, we both still don't 100%agree, but I understand where you're coming from now, and I hope you understand where I'm coming from with this post.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: ikusat September 05, 2007, 10:29:58 PM
Also, 5B? I know you were just trying to make a point, but that has an even worse startup than 5C.

And just a word of advice when arguing. Back up what you say with evidence, and say it calmly.
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2166078
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: ikusat September 05, 2007, 10:58:30 PM
Ok, here's the rest of the post.  I had to break it up into two because otherwise I'd lose some effect out of the one above :B

Veteru:   Hisui 5b = 7f startup
Veteru:   hisui 5c = 13f startup

I think Chibi is just trying to stop the spread of misinformation.  I certainly would not want to recommend a new Hisui player to use 5c as anti air.  Here's why:

5c has a very low vertical hit range(around waist level).  It is no doubt air unblockable, but again, the vertical range is very low.  The success you are seeing with 5c is most likely from the chair hitting the opponent's attack box.  When someone attacks you, their hit box is expanded, and the chair is hitting their newly expanded hit box.  In addition, the chair does have clash frames when she has it above her head(it will never, ever hit there though).

Now go try hitting an empty jump in with 5c.  It is rather difficult as they need to be pretty low to the ground.  Here's where the problem starts to unfold.

If they do an empty jump in while you are relying on them to attack, the 5c will miss and you'll be in for a world of hurt.  In addition, you are pre-empting their attack in this case, and should be using 623b instead.  If you're doing it on reaction, 5b is a much better choice.

If they start their attack higher up, the chair will never hit their attack at all, whether you use it early or late, and you're eating a beefy jump in combo.  The best you can hope is for it to clash.  Again, 623b is a better choice here if you're doing it early, or 5b if you're doing it late.

The only strong points for 5c is that is actually does counter predictable iad attacks very well.  This might be the sole reason you like it so much.  It stuffs low to the ground attacks quite well, and a 100% proration combo starter does lead to big damage.  However, I would not advise you to build tactics and bad habits based on countering sloppy play.

I will admit that I completed discounted 5c as anti air at first, but after analysis, it's still really not a very strong tool for anti air.  It has some merits, but I would definitely not classify it as an anti air attack, and I believe this is what Chibi was trying to say.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi September 05, 2007, 11:09:04 PM
Ikusat, please have my babies.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 06, 2007, 06:31:13 AM
Veteru:   Hisui 5b = 7f startup
Veteru:   hisui 5c = 13f startup

I think Chibi is just trying to stop the spread of misinformation.  I certainly would not want to recommend a new Hisui player to use 5c as anti air.  Here's why:
I did not know that. I guess its because there are actual animation frames for the 5B, It looks like it runs slower. Learn somethign knew everyday I suppose. Good to know. Man, I knew 'evidence' was poor word choice.
5c has a very low vertical hit range(around waist level).  It is no doubt air unblockable, but again, the vertical range is very low.  The success you are seeing with 5c is most likely from the chair hitting the opponent's attack box.  When someone attacks you, their hit box is expanded, and the chair is hitting their newly expanded hit box.  In addition, the chair does have clash frames when she has it above her head(it will never, ever hit there though).

Now go try hitting an empty jump in with 5c.  It is rather difficult as they need to be pretty low to the ground.  Here's where the problem starts to unfold.

If they do an empty jump in while you are relying on them to attack, the 5c will miss and you'll be in for a world of hurt.  In addition, you are pre-empting their attack in this case, and should be using 623b instead.  If you're doing it on reaction, 5b is a much better choice.

If they start their attack higher up, the chair will never hit their attack at all, whether you use it early or late, and you're eating a beefy jump in combo.  The best you can hope is for it to clash.  Again, 623b is a better choice here if you're doing it early, or 5b if you're doing it late.

The only strong points for 5c is that is actually does counter predictable iad attacks very well.  This might be the sole reason you like it so much.  It stuffs low to the ground attacks quite well, and a 100% proration combo starter does lead to big damage.  However, I would not advise you to build tactics and bad habits based on countering sloppy play.

I will admit that I completed discounted 5c as anti air at first, but after analysis, it's still really not a very strong tool for anti air.  It has some merits, but I would definitely not classify it as an anti air attack, and I believe this is what Chibi was trying to say.

Yeah, I can agree with this, and you also accurately stated why I like it so much. Thank you for clarifying what Chibi was doing so poorly to explain. Seriously, if this was done int he beginning it would've shut me up from the beginning.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi September 06, 2007, 07:02:03 AM
Sorry, I'm not Ikusat, but I know when I'm right.

:\
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 06, 2007, 10:49:19 AM
Funny because just yesterday, I knew I was right too. Maybe, just because we "know" we are right, doesn't actually mean that we actually are right.

Also, where did you get the frame data, Ikusat? Its not on melty info, and it'd be a great resource to anyone who has ever once thought to play Hisui.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Qaenyin September 06, 2007, 12:14:56 PM
From the act cadenza perfect guide:

Startup Frames for Hisui:

5A:4 Frames
2A:4 Frames
j.A:5 frames
5B:7 Frames
2B:7 Frames
j.B:6 Frames
j.BB(second hit):6 Frames
5C:13 Frames
5C(charged):15 Frames
2C:14 Frames
j.C:9 Frames
j.C(Charged):27 Frames
4B:40 Frames
6B:15 Frames
6C:16 Frames
6CC(Second Hit):14 Frames
6CC 236C(Third Hit):13 Frames
j.2C:12 Frames
Airthrow:1 Frame
Ground Throw:3 Frames
Shield Bunker:1 Frame

Specials:
236A:9 Frames
236B:13 Frames
236(A or B) 236A(Last Hit):12 Frames
236(A or B) 236B(Last Hit):13 Frames
236C:15 Frames
j.236A:9 Frames
j.236B:13 Frames
j.236C:13 Frames

214A/B/C(startup variable on projectile, frames not listed)

623A:12 Frames
623B:11 Frames
623C:2 Frames

22A:96 Frames
22B:98 Frames
22C:(Does not Deal Damage)

Arc Drive:Invulnerable startup when uncharged, startup frames during charge are based on charge length.

Another Arc Drive:Startup is invulnerable.

Last Arc:No startup frames.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: linalys September 06, 2007, 12:40:22 PM
ikusat says 2c is faster now and it's easy to prove. 

Do 2ac and it combos compared to 2a5c which doesn't. 
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 06, 2007, 03:58:04 PM
Yeah, I know. Its just what happens when you say things without actually wanting to do the research.

This is the frame data for b2 v.1.03, right?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: linalys September 06, 2007, 04:38:34 PM
It's not from the PC version which is what I was trying to point out with my post.  Up there it says 5c is 13 and 2c is 14 and I'm proving it false.  (Proving 2c is faster that is)

That's probably for Arcade B2 or PS2 ver b. 
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: ikusat September 06, 2007, 06:48:28 PM
I generally just use relative speeds when comparing moves.  I actually hate dabbling in frame counting, but there's a guy on IRC who loves doing it, so I just ask him.  I consider him a very reliable source of information since he'll usually gets good proof to back up his claims to avoid my WRONG AGAIN VET.

But the 5b faster than 5c thing is very obvious.  5a 5b combos, 5a 5c does not.  That was very instinctual and I just had him count frames just so we all knew exactly how much faster it was.

That list Qaenyin posted looks like it is from version A.  2ac combos in the ps2 version as well, and the jumping 236 attacks have also been sped up, I believe.  Bug Arly to stop being a lazy ass and scan some shit in.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 06, 2007, 07:20:03 PM
Yeah, I don't like frame data that much either, but it does come in handy in a situation exactly like this one which could've prevented me from saying something really stupid.

Now, in an attempt of changing the subject, and having a serious question, looking at this vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVPqaKBhwAs), every once in a while Jin does an air combo and j.BB's yukinose in the corner(theres one at 0:33). Yukinose bounces, and jin does a 2c to make sure he doesn't tech away so he can do an oki. My question is, what if Yukinose teched instead of bounced? Would Jin have an opportunity for a tech punish? Or would he have been forced to go on the defensive?

Edit:Haha, the second Yukinose vs Jin vid answers my question. But now I have to ask, is it really worth it to do the j.BB that high up? It seems like its betting on the opponent making a mistake, and even though it is a hard thing to tech out of, its still looks to me like an unnecessary risk.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi September 06, 2007, 07:31:05 PM
If you do 5.A then 2C you will tech punish the opponent regardless of how they decide to tech in the corner, back, foward, or neutral. If they dont' tech at all, the 2c grounds them and you can set up the end of the world for oki right after. There's spacing that needs to be done (which relies mostly on that j.BB) before hand to ensure that 5A 2C will always punish though.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 06, 2007, 07:37:18 PM
I knew that, but the thing is when its that high up, they hit the ground and tech faster than you hit the ground. In the second vid, Yukinose does just that, and Jin couldn't punish. The "second vid" i'm talking about is this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izs257kQNmE) around 0:58. Of course, the possibility still exists taht he just missed the timing.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi September 06, 2007, 07:48:41 PM
Actually I'm pretty sure 5A 2C would have nailed him there too.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sledeau September 06, 2007, 09:55:39 PM
Typically to setup the j.bb you want to wait until the last second after a j.c to j.bb. Its mostly vertical spacing you have to worry about. Be careful to not wait too long or else the first j.b will connect but not the second.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: ikusat September 06, 2007, 10:40:13 PM
I haven't found a situation where I'd land at an actual disadvantage with jbb.  Even though Hisui might hit the ground after they do, remember they're teching, which also takes some amount of frames.  If you notice at the 0:58 example you were talking about, Hisui whiffs a 2a before Akiha finished teching, and the next 2a gets blocked.  This is merely mistiming the tech punish attack.  In general it's better to use 5a 2c for comboing purposes, but 2ac would have worked just fine if Hisui had delayed the attack by a few more frames.

The jbb punish is basically like this:
Neutral tech, no tech: Do 5a2c6b2a etc right when landing.
Back tech, forward tech: Wait a smidge after landing, then do 5a2c6b2a etc

This is the easiest way to tech punish since you can use the same combo regardless of which tech they use, or if they don't tech at all.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: mizuki September 07, 2007, 12:08:27 AM
If you need help I can just post up frame data off of Arly's B1 mook.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Qaenyin September 07, 2007, 08:01:41 PM
The frame data is for the PS2 version.  So not all of it is perfectly accurate, unfortunately.  I dont have the cash to spend another 40$ on the B2 version of the book.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Psydunk September 13, 2007, 01:11:11 PM
Hi, I'm new to using Hisui, so I have a question. What's a good way to get in with Hisui? I've been watching match vids and trying the stuff I see there, but I always get smacked around when I try it in an actual fight. :(
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi September 13, 2007, 02:36:46 PM
Depends on who you're fighting against.

Her rushdown is pretty solid, but she needs to set up a few things first, and just outright rushing in is a bit of a struggle for her.

In other cases she's better off playing defensively as well.

What characters do you play against?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Psydunk September 13, 2007, 02:49:02 PM
I fight Nanaya alot mostly. I fight Ciel  and Kohaku/Hisui(Kohaku as the main) alot too, but not as much as Nanaya. I air dash in on them, but they always break my tables before the hit can register against them.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi September 13, 2007, 03:01:27 PM
I would advise you to keep your distance from Nanaya, because once he gets his rushdown going you'll be blocking and eating mixups for quite a while.

If you've got the chance to, do 623+C to create some space between you and him, and then run into it and set up A bento, B, Bento and chairs. Wait for him to jump towards you and nail him with 623+B, if not, then immediately walk up to the B bento and set up another A bento right there. Make him come to you and force a mistake, all the while giving yourself space to breathe.

Also, if they're 'breaking your tables', bait their tactics then.

Save some replays next time :D!
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam September 13, 2007, 04:34:34 PM
Yeah, with replays we can analyze and help you recognize bad habits.

And speaking of bad habits, don't use the chair often, specially the [5]c where you charge at the person. Even though your opponents are probably not good enough to stop you, its very easily baitable and bara cancelable in the higher levels of play.

Never fought any of the people you mentioned. Ciel I've fought a couple times, and all I can say is if you fight a ciel, don't press buttons. I wish I was joking, but any mis-pressed button against Ciel = Death. Hisu/Koha is pretty much making sure Kohaku doesn't knock you down(heh, yeah, easier said than done.)

Getting in... you gotta follow pots you throw if you want a i'd say 70-80% chance of being safe, but really, I'd rather keep my distance. Against a ciel its not very advantageous, but j.B can beat just about any jump-in,(and, in my recent experiences,its been pretty a pretty handy air to ground move, but I need confirmation if its a good idea to do so) which you can lead into a combo, and you can zone pretty nicely with pots/dust/etc. Her zoning isn't as good as say, Ciel(God I hate her.) but you got the range, so use it.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Psydunk September 13, 2007, 05:30:32 PM
First off, I would like to say thankyou for the tips guys. When I get the chance, I will save a replay.

EDIT: I made a video today against a CPU Nanaya, but for some reason, I could not find it in the replay folder.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Greyvangelist September 27, 2007, 04:58:27 PM
I dunno if it's my terrible execution but for some reason my 5C in her BnB comes out far too late and ends up hitting the enemy while they're already on the ground. I use the exact same kind of motion when going for 2c to 5c but for some reason sometimes it doesn't work.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Zaido September 27, 2007, 06:34:35 PM
one reason is you might press the button a little to late or alittle too long, cause the move is a charge move, its pretty sensitive
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Master_Amado November 09, 2007, 08:20:56 PM
Is there a practical use of her 236 ex in the air? Also what is the best combo to use after landing the 236 ex on the ground if the opponent does not tech at the end?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Numakie November 10, 2007, 03:38:30 AM
Is there a practical use of her 236 ex in the air? Also what is the best combo to use after landing the 236 ex on the ground if the opponent does not tech at the end?

The 236 EX has some of its merits.
-It has an invincible frame at start up.
-It brings you down to the ground quickly.
-The hit box is largely diagonal down.
-Because of its multi hit property, this move requires multiple shielding to shield successfully.
-Quick recovery when you touch the ground with this move.

It is possible to do a combo off of a 236 EX if you happen to land it on the opponent.  Note that the EX version will carry a grounded opponent off the ground.

Basically it is j236C-5B-6C-jC-jC-Throw.  Nothing too fancy but it is to the point.

I made 2 examples showing this and plopped them down in the Melty Bread FTP site. Visit this topic for access the FTP site.
http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=395.0 (http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=395.0)

Replay file: CV-Numakie-Hisui 236EX Combos.zip



: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: AlmightyNam November 10, 2007, 07:32:10 AM
Though, even with its merits, the move is very situational. There are so many better air to ground moves that you can use(like... any of her air normals), and better uses of your meter than to use a 236 c in the air.

Though 236 anything in the air is pretty good if you have to stay in the air a bit longer, like, if you're about to land on an arc drive or something.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi November 10, 2007, 09:41:00 AM
Honestly, you're better off not really using it, it's a waste a meter 99% of the time. It has it's obscure uses (like for getting to the ground quicker if you've landed an odd CH in the air), and it actually beats out Satsuki's nut grab on reaction, but all in all I wouldn't bother with it. As for 236C on the ground, I do 5A 5B and combo from there usually.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Numakie November 10, 2007, 10:21:10 AM
As for 236C on the ground, I do 5A 5B and combo from there usually.

I like using 2B 6C after a ground 236C then to an air combo.  Slight frame disadvantage from any A move but i like the sound of the frying pan.  :P

... what is the best combo to use after landing the 236 ex on the ground if the opponent does not tech at the end?

You can actually continue the combo after the last hit of the 236 EX, though the timing is pretty strict. The key is hitting them right before they hit the ground.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Master_Amado November 11, 2007, 12:00:12 AM
Ok next question why do people air dash and push b after an air throw. I figure the air dash is to keep the momentum and to stay next to the opponent when they land but why the b attack before landing it does not hit and it even comes out the wrong way so I am pretty sure you cant use it as an over head and it come out way before the opponent is up so why do it?  :psyduck:
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Zaido November 11, 2007, 01:18:21 AM
negates airdash landing recovery

next time you try airdash, and dont throw an attack and see if you can attack right away after you land
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi November 11, 2007, 06:51:26 PM
You use it to negate landing recovery in hopes that you can tech punish if you guess right.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: vayseth January 13, 2008, 06:06:51 PM
On the first basic BnB is it better to end with dj.BC 6Q or dj.BB (aka, the purse spike down). I have seen in a lot of videos Hisui players using the latter more often and it seems like they get decent wake up mix up with it. What do you guys feel about that (or about ending ANY combo with j.BB instead of air throw)?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi January 13, 2008, 07:16:11 PM
lol

Honestly, it depends on the player, but there are situations that call for either one.

5A 2C is Hisui's universal tech punish. If you space it right, it'll always nail the other guy regardless of how they tech, and if they don't tech it keeps them to the floor and gives way to you for oki.

So if you see vids of some Japanese players doing jb j.c and then jbb past half screen, then they're damnded confident in their spacing that they can then tech punish their opponent because that will pretty much send them right to he corner. They'll follow up with 5.A, 2.c (6b, 2a etc) and go from there.

However if you're not really in that position to do such a thing you can still do the usual BnB and tech punish afterwards, but you'll have to guess which way they'll tech. Going with the j.bb option (when done right) will always net a tech punish, but that's why I said it depends on the player, and more so their opponent and their ability to read (guess) them or whether or not they know said opponent's tendencies to tech in certain directions.

If I'm quite far away from the corner (too far go to properly utilize j.BB) I go for the regular BnB then jump away from the corner. If they tech punish fowards (and I guess right) I can punish with something on the way down (j.C perhaps). If they tech backwards (into the corner), well guess what, they're in the corner and I'm not, so it's still in my favor. I've seen this in vids as well.

Also, you can do something like 2a2b5c2c6c, jc, air dash, jc, j.c, jbb as well. The 5C being down before the 2c will give you that push you'll need to get closer into the corner, and the last j.c / j.bb will help position you where you can then tech punish your opponent.

The thing with Hisui is that there are certain things you should do (ie her BnB, set out bento after a throw, etc) but she's got alot going for her to be played how you like. Well, to a certain extent.

;p
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Numakie January 14, 2008, 01:27:09 AM
I find that the j.BB follow up in the corner becomes a guessing game on whether the opponent will tech or not.

If you come across a player who is tech happy, go ahead and tech punish to your hearts content.  The Universal 5A, 2C trap is always good... cept on small characters like Len, W.Len and both Akiha's or Miyako since the 5A whiffs over their stupid little heads.  Be weary that the Netural tech is faster then the Foward/Back tech, so adjust accordingly.

If it turns out they rather bounce, you can either extend the combo by catching them before they fall, or trap em in the corner with a bento or chair. 

If then you come across someone who will do either or, it becomes a matter of if you can react fast enough to what they do.

--Edited: fixed/verified/corrected info--
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Villainous January 14, 2008, 06:34:04 PM
So what do you guys do when you're stuck in the corner under pressure? Especially vs. Arc, I'm having trouble if I get cornered and getting mixed up to hell without a lot of escape options. Parrying worked for a bit and so did poking him out of his jumping wake up options, but he adapted to that quick so now I need to figure out some ways of getting out of their safely without eating a 40%+ combo.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Numakie January 14, 2008, 09:13:10 PM
Honestly, Being stuck in the corner is prolly one of Hisui's major disadvantages, especially when the opponent has a solid block string to keep you there. She also doesn't have a reliable move for wake up most of the time.  One of the obstacles i had to overcome was to just be patient and block for long periods of time if need be, hoping that they will leave some sort of opening or make a mistake.

As for tools to help you get out [aside from the universal ones (ie: circut spark, 214C)], i find uses of these options during mid pressure or wake up:

Hisui Dust Cloud (623-C): if you can manage to get this out somehow, you may be able stop their rush down altogether and give yourself a small breather. There is a bit of start up though and no invincibility upon execution, so it may not be the safest option by itself.

Ground Multi stabbin' satchel (236-A,C):  The A version is surprisingly quick on start up. The EX version has a slight frame of invincibility on start up.  If done right, you can catch them from mid poke, or at the very least, trade off. If you mess up though, especially with the EX version (they block or you totally whiff), be prepared to eat it.

Hisui-doken/Saturday Night Fever (41236-C in heat mode) - This is perhaps one of Hisui's best options of getting out of the corner. Invincibility on start up, free cross up if they're up close, and instant recovery after she shoots her fireball.   The move is only available once in a while though.

In most cases though, i find that blocking and waiting is her best option most of the time.  Trying desperately to get out of the corner by any means necessary leaves you open and vunerable to frame traps (read: block strings).  If anything, get a feel on how they keep you pressured, how they delay their moves, when they dash, when they jump, if they go for dash in throws, how they cancel their moves, just.. everything they do, and then find openings from that.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi January 14, 2008, 09:55:42 PM
@ Numakie:

Actually her 5A 2C will not tech punish both the Lens and both the Akihas, but it will work on everyone else. Ikusat mentioned something about their hitboxes being abnormally low / small. You can try and go for 2B in these cases, but the window to tech punish in that case is supposedly 1 frame, so take that for what it's worth.

@ Villainous:

If you absolutely need a breather from pressure in the corner, 623C is the way to go if you get that one millisecond to throw it out there. Why? Absolutely NOTHING beats that dust cloud once it's out, so use it as a free shield. Do dust cloud, run right into the dust cloud, then put down an A bento. Then put down a B bento. By now the cloud should be dissipating, but you'll be sitting right ontop of A bento. Sure, your opponent could still rush in on you but you've got 623B at your disposal, and even they get in quick enough they'll be interrupted by the bento. At this point it's a good to run out to the B bento and place an A bento there, because the A bento will have likely faded away. Place a chair, then another B bento, and get to tossing shit around the screen.

One thing to make note of, it's really only a good idea to do the above when you half a significant lead in health, otherwise there's no reason for your opponent to come running in on you through all the crap you have set up. The above can also be used when you're not in the corner, as a mid screen tactic to annoy the shit out of your opponent. Works pretty well.

236A is not a valid wake up option. Ever. 236C is an acceptable wake option to be used as sparingly as possible. It's best only when you absolutely know your opponent is going to be spamming a meaty on you (ie 4000 2.A's). It's acceptable because it has a tiny bit of invincibility, but not enough to warrant to be used as a constant wake up option.

And 41236C is a fucking crazy good Last Arc, and fine as a wake up option (as it's safe and crosses up, go ahead and try it) but in a way it is a bit of a waste.

Noting in this game is 100% abusable in every situation, so take that as you will.

In reality, your best option really is to block your way out of the corner. You'll probably see holes in your opponent's offense start to sprout up, and really noone in this game can do block strings for forever. If your opponent just RUNS / iad's in when it's clear their offensive front has reached it's end, make them pay for it (2b, 623B, etc).

Also, some things to consider (after fucking around with her):

(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7264/623bea4.gif)

Hisui's upper body invincibility falls right in the space of that box. If something is directly above you (or just a bit off the center infront of you) that 623B is going to nail it. Uncharged B laser from Aoko, normal laser from M.Hisui, and I believe A crow from Nvsnzqr will go right through it.

And the proximity for her bento also falls in the box shown below. It was much bigger in the PS2 version, but it's clear they shrunk it, but you can combo INTO bento from an air combo (it'll bounce them right back up). I think that promixity actually falls back a bit further (to the left of the actual tray).

(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8745/bentoio1.gif)

;p
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Numakie January 14, 2008, 10:09:18 PM
@ Numakie:

Actually her 5A 2C will not tech punish both the Lens and both the Akihas...


Ohh. your right *just tried it*  Seems they go into a ducking animation after they tech.

Thanks for the heads up.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi January 14, 2008, 10:42:33 PM
Nah thank you.

I only have one V.Akiha player to play against here, and no Akiha or Len expierence what so ever so I didn't even know about this, I thought 5.A 2.C was universal.

Yes, I just thanked you.

I feel dirty.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Villainous January 15, 2008, 10:57:02 AM
snip

Ok, that should help a lot, I did not know that her 623B had upper body invincibility. That'll help a lot vs. his jump ins, as Arc's j.C seems to have retarded priority and beat out most of my anti air options on the ground, and also seems to beat anything I try when I jump.

While we're on the note of anti air, does Hisui have anything that's air unblockable?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Numakie January 15, 2008, 12:26:05 PM
snip

Ok, that should help a lot, I did not know that her 623B had upper body invincibility. That'll help a lot vs. his jump ins, as Arc's j.C seems to have retarded priority and beat out most of my anti air options on the ground, and also seems to beat anything I try when I jump.

While we're on the note of anti air, does Hisui have anything that's air unblockable?

Generally, characters in the air are unable to block against most attacks from a grounded opponent.  This means for, an example, a standing 5A will always hit an opponent in mid air regardless of if he tries to block or not (They can still shield or hit you with another move however).  I have heard this term being called "Guard crushing" from other peeps.

That being said, most of Hisui's grounded normals except the 6b will guard crush an opponent.  I i think the 623-b Dust in the air is unblockable as well (please verify).  Her Hisui-doken though is perhaps the best move since it covers a massive chunk of the bottom screen.. and it cant be air blocked ;3. 

: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sledeau January 15, 2008, 12:41:27 PM
Guard crushing is usually referred to when you hit someone with an air unblockable while they're in blockstun, not just the unairblockable normal itself. For example, hitting someone with a j.c in the air as you land, then 5a'ing them while they're still in the block animation. I could be wrong on that, maybe the air blockstun actually does end on a setup like that before you can hit them with 5a, but it seems fairly effective on me when a character like Satsuki uses that. Maybe I just need to mash shield more.

And yes, 623b can't be air blocked. 623c can be air blocked, but hey, free guard crush opportunity.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Felix Omni January 15, 2008, 08:35:45 PM
How should Hisui be played against Ciel?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi January 15, 2008, 08:58:15 PM
How should Hisui be played against Ciel?

Hit and run and as safe as fucking possible. Whatever was safe against the rest of the characters in the game suddenly doesn't become safe whenfighting against Ciel, all thanks to the likelihood of 236C looming afterwards. Bait flash kicks, look out for 2B's when activating heat, jump around jump around, etc. And try NOT to use 5C much.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Villainous January 20, 2008, 05:21:02 PM
snip

Ok, that should help a lot, I did not know that her 623B had upper body invincibility. That'll help a lot vs. his jump ins, as Arc's j.C seems to have retarded priority and beat out most of my anti air options on the ground, and also seems to beat anything I try when I jump.

While we're on the note of anti air, does Hisui have anything that's air unblockable?

Generally, characters in the air are unable to block against most attacks from a grounded opponent.  This means for, an example, a standing 5A will always hit an opponent in mid air regardless of if he tries to block or not (They can still shield or hit you with another move however).  I have heard this term being called "Guard crushing" from other peeps.

That being said, most of Hisui's grounded normals except the 6b will guard crush an opponent.  I i think the 623-b Dust in the air is unblockable as well (please verify).  Her Hisui-doken though is perhaps the best move since it covers a massive chunk of the bottom screen.. and it cant be air blocked ;3. 



Oh wow I didn't know grounded normals being unblockable in the air was in this game. I started out playing nero and people have been able to block a lot of my ground pokes in the air but I guess maybe that's because his stuff has such retarded range it wouldn't be fair otherwise. I was wondering tonight how come if I jumped at jump midair and started spamming j.A till I landed, the landed 5A would always hit. Good to know!
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sledeau January 20, 2008, 05:39:08 PM
The only unblockable Nero normal is 4c. His 5b and 2c are great because they've got huge hitboxes and are air unblockable (like most normals.)
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Lolly January 20, 2008, 09:44:30 PM
The only unblockable Nero normal is 4c. His 5b and 2c are great because they've got huge hitboxes and are air unblockable (like most normals.)

Nero 4c is blockable on the ground . the first hit is air unblockable, but the 2nd hit isnt
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Frostbolt February 03, 2008, 12:28:16 PM
Hey can some of you guys give me tips on how to Beat Miyako, i just got slaughtered over and over by a friend of mine :(

Also I cant seem to get the 2AC tech punish ever on practise x_x
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi February 03, 2008, 01:20:14 PM
Stay on the damn ground. If you have to do air to air against her use j.B.

Just get your chance to create space, put out bentos, chairs, and start throwing pots, and get ready to 623B when you can, otherwise play hit and run, or entirely defensive if you'd like. If she gets in on you then good luck getting her off. Miyako doesn't really have worthwhile tech punish set ups outside of using meter to do so, so use that to your advantage as well.

 :psyduck:
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Frostbolt February 03, 2008, 02:44:58 PM
wow thats like my whole game gone (stay on the ground)

How did you know i jump x_x
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi February 03, 2008, 03:04:54 PM
Because it's a given in this game. There are some match ups where you should just be IAD'ing back with j.B to create space and some where you should be teetering around the other character. Hisui is flexible like that. Chances are if the opponent's character is rushdown oriented, then you'll have the means to keep them the fuck out, UNLESS you end up jumping /sj'ing everywhere like a doofus, in which you're giving them an invitation to meet you up in the air and lose (Hisui's air game isn't all that great imo).
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: vedasisme February 21, 2008, 08:55:12 PM
I'm trying to do the [C] 2C B jABC jBC AT combo, but when i get to the jABC part, once i get to jBC, i can only connect either the jC or the AT...

I've pulled off the entire combo less than ten times, is there perhaps some sort of timing I'm getting wrong?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi February 21, 2008, 10:09:10 PM
Your timing is likely off, trying doing it faster.

Though I'm not sure why you'd use that combo.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: vedasisme February 21, 2008, 10:32:52 PM
it's a good high-damage combo that doesn't require circuit, that's mainly why i use it.

I'm a fairly mediocre player at the moment, though so I'm not sure why you'd say it's a bad combo...
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi February 22, 2008, 04:50:29 AM
Oh I just got for the regular BnB really, but if that combo's is working for you then by all means keep rocking it.

 :V
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: vedasisme February 23, 2008, 11:28:58 PM
haha, after mastering that combo, i realized that there are other variations of it that are easier to pull off and do more damage.

such as, BC 2C 6B jBC jBC AT
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: vedasisme April 08, 2008, 06:54:44 AM
it's been a while since i was last here, and i've definitely improved a lot.  However, my friend who plays Wara who started playing before me still beats me all the time.

It's mostly because I underestimate Warachia's range, and also because of dash-in 5B, which he uses in his blockstrings all the time during gaps where I think I could possible jump out.

Are there any tips specific to playing against a warachia?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra April 08, 2008, 07:09:18 AM
Warakia has really good range but that also works against him, so make sure to take advantage of it with stuff fu. Because of his extended hit box it's really easy to get counter hits on him with pots and lamps as he tries to zone. As for defending against his blockstrings, you can try to put out an EX dust if the gaps are large enough, which would force him to back away if it comes out.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: abitofBaileys April 09, 2008, 04:19:27 AM
Also, Hisui's 5A can hit Warachia's annoying jump-over-backdash jC stuff.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sh1k1 April 09, 2008, 11:15:03 AM
Also, on distance, you can also force the high-speed cloth hanger and metal tray to come out if you quickly press 6 right before pressing B when using Stuff-fu.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi April 09, 2008, 05:05:14 PM
Honestly I'd keep rushing the guy down.

And put mats out~
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior June 24, 2008, 08:37:10 PM
Whenever I get a knockdown, and do a 2b or 2c meaty, they always get "counter" if they try to attack.
Is that bad, is it my mistiming? Also, when you time the meaty, do you want the end of the attack to hit them, or the beginning of the attack?

When I played against Prinny's Arcueid, I could spam A all I wanted without getting a counter on wakeup.
And people seemed to be able to heat/backdash when they woke up against my meaty midscreen.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi June 24, 2008, 09:47:46 PM
If you're going to go with meaty use 2a or 2b. You can use 2c too, but 2a and 2b are the optimal normals to use here.

As for the timing, well you basically want any part of the normal to interupt them getting up, so that they have to wake up block. If they seem to be mashing 2a on wake up try whiffing a 2a and going right to j.2c for counter hit.

As for them doing heat or backdash on wake up, try double jumping over them and coming down with j.c to punish heat, or hold 5.C to clash with it. To get them backdashing, hold 5c to chase after them too.

Against ex hiero happy Ciels, use 2a for meaties when they have meter, so you can cancel straight into shield.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra June 25, 2008, 05:11:01 AM
What Chibi said and also...

Whenever I get a knockdown, and do a 2b or 2c meaty, they always get "counter" if they try to attack.
Is that bad, is it my mistiming? Also, when you time the meaty, do you want the end of the attack to hit them, or the beginning of the attack?

Doesn't matter if you hit them at the beginning or the end of the meaty, as long as they wake up into active frames of the move. You'll cancel into something else and it'll either combo if they didn't block, or you'll get a blockstring if they did block. I'm not sure about getting a counter hit on your meaty. It could mean you were late by a few frames and they tried to attack but maybe you can also get them on a perfectly timed attack, I don't know. Just time it as best as you can it's not that hard with practice.

When I played against Prinny's Arcueid, I could spam A all I wanted without getting a counter on wakeup.
And people seemed to be able to heat/backdash when they woke up against my meaty midscreen.

Wakeup heat, backdash, reversals (moves with invulnerability frames) all beat meaty attacks, even if you time it right. That's where you need to read your opponent, know what he's about to do and react accordingly. Chibi already gave a few options on what you can do in some of these situations.

You should add 5b to your list of meaties too. Mix it up with 2b to discourage people from shielding on wakeup.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior June 25, 2008, 11:57:48 AM
I see, so it was just a mistiming on my part.
Because when Prinny did meaties against me, I spammed heat as fast as I could, it wouldn't even come out.
Yet when I did it, I got heat-countered all the time.

How many frames do you get to heat safely?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra June 25, 2008, 12:24:27 PM
Not sure on how many frames you get to buffer it but you're much better off timing it than mashing it. Mashing inputs is rarely the solution. I'd say never but I'm sure some asshole is going to find a situation where you gotta mash it out.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior June 26, 2008, 06:52:31 PM
Also, I found a "new" BnB that has good potential.
When I hitconfirm and know that I hit confirm, I'll do this combo, minus some of the first few steps depending on when I get the hitconfirm:

2a 5b/2b 2b/5b 2c 5c 6c jBC djBC airthrow.

It's basically the same as the normal one with an added B.
5B2B does a bit more damage than 2B5B
If you get a jC in the corner, doing 5B 2B instead of just 2B gives you about 400 more damage.

I don't think it's worth it most of the time since you need to be a bit closer.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi June 26, 2008, 08:06:59 PM
If you're that close to begin with try doing 2ab5c, 2c, 6c, j.c, air dash, j.c, dj.c, throw~
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior June 26, 2008, 09:01:31 PM
Well, it's a bit harder and different from the typical BnB, and it does like 100 less damage. :P
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi June 26, 2008, 10:07:51 PM
Well you go ahead and keep making up BnB's that you'll barely use then and we'll chill with what we got, thanks~
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior June 26, 2008, 10:22:05 PM
Well, when I posted it, it was as a contribution to anyone who wanted to use it and didn't know about it.

You're really mean deep down.
In your pants and your heart. :o
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi June 26, 2008, 10:31:55 PM
Whatever you say guy~
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior July 25, 2008, 10:10:57 PM
Okay here's a tiny tiny contribution:
A slightly tweaked BnB that does about 100 more damage.

2C 5[C] 6C jBC djBC airthrow.


You might be thinking that it's exactly the same, but no!
The difference is in the 5C. If you hold it for a short period of time, it does three hits instead of two, since it doesn't prorate, it just basically adds about 100 damage to the BnB no matter what you do. Drawback is that you have to be a bit.. close. >_> Take it as you will. When you hit confirm off 2C or whatever.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: puKKa July 26, 2008, 01:58:47 AM
I think my heart just stopped! That's SO AWESOME!  :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck: :psyduck:
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Xavori July 26, 2008, 02:01:55 PM
(>д<) あの。。。CTさん。。。
2C hit confirm has 10 frame startup, while 2A has 4 frames and 2B has 7 frames.

Against White Ren:
Standard combo: 2ABC>5C>6C>j.BC>j.BC>throw = 3833 damage
CT combo: 2C>5C{3 hits}>6C>j.BC>j.BC>throw = 3696 damage
:prinny: combo: 2BC>5C>6C>j.BC>j.BC>throw = 3866 damage

In addition, 2C>5C{3} must begin closer than 2BC does, while also having more startup frames.

Not that I'm advocating 2B hit confirm or anything...
: !
: CT_Warrior July 26, 2008, 09:00:59 PM
Xavori, you misunderstood.
Like if you were staggering, and your 2C suddenly hit, my combo would do 100 damage more. BIG difference! I mean, psh, 100!
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Pfhor July 26, 2008, 10:52:46 PM
(>д<) あの。。。CTさん。。。
2C hit confirm has 10 frame startup, while 2A has 4 frames and 2B has 7 frames.

Against White Ren:
Standard combo: 2ABC>5C>6C>j.BC>j.BC>throw = 3833 damage
CT combo: 2C>5C{3 hits}>6C>j.BC>j.BC>throw = 3696 damage
:prinny: combo: 2BC>5C>6C>j.BC>j.BC>throw = 3866 damage

A partially charged 5c will work off of 2abc and do 3928 damage rather than 2833. It does not work at 2a's maximum range, however, and at the range it does work at a better choice would be her alternate relaunch bnb.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi July 27, 2008, 12:08:58 AM
woopy

charged 5c is better used for distance correction in her bnb
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior August 23, 2008, 11:11:43 AM
How's this for a BnB:
2A 2B 5C (one hit) 2C 6C 5B jBC jBC airthrow.

It works off a pretty far range of 2A or 2B. And you can do 5C (2 hits) if you think you're close enough. The second hit knocks them back about 1 and a half bodies more, so leaving it out really increases the range you can start from.

The thing is that it won't work if you manage to hit them when they're crouching.

Damage against vakiha:

4297 - standard BnB (2ABC 5C 6C jBC jBC airthrow)
4081 - jCBB ender

4431 - my BnB (2AB 5C[onehit] 2C 6C 5B jBC jBC airthrow)
4299 - jACBB ender (though I wouldn't due to double reverse beats)

4877 - alternative BnB (2AB 5C[twohit] 2C 6C 5B jBC jBC airthrow)
4753 - jACBB ender (maybe worth the reverse beat)

It does slightly more damage, looks cooler, and is easier to switch to the real alternative combo when you see a chance.
If the alternative relaunch BnB was meant to have the ambiguity for 5C, then I said this because I never see any Hisui using one-hit 5C.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Ultima66 August 23, 2008, 02:28:29 PM
Stop rebeating and do 5B 2B for the ground string like most characters?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: CT_Warrior August 23, 2008, 06:20:38 PM
That has less range, and at that range, it'd be better to do the alternate relaunch combo.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi August 23, 2008, 09:03:51 PM
derrr

let's test bnb's on vakiha

i think the normal bnb works fine
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra August 24, 2008, 05:34:12 AM
What combo you use really depends on what you hitconfirm with. There isn't a magical bnb.

2A 5B 2B 5C(2hits) 2C 6C j.C ad j.C dj.BC (or other various j.BB airstring varying on spacing from the corner) works fine. Even take out the 2A if possible and you want more damage.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi August 24, 2008, 07:46:20 AM
how a bout

2abc jaaaaaaaa dj jaaaaaaaa airthrow?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra August 24, 2008, 11:54:12 AM
ok!

edit: wait no you need a launcher lol u fail chibi ur so bad at making up combos
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Numakie August 24, 2008, 01:53:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxEqO7YGBfc

Yer missing dat 5A  :P
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: puKKa October 13, 2008, 10:55:44 AM
5B, y/n?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: F9|Chibi October 13, 2008, 04:30:19 PM
For?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Lolly October 13, 2008, 04:52:45 PM
5B, y/n?

yes!
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra October 13, 2008, 09:10:43 PM
poking n
meaty y
blockstring y
combo filler y
anti air... y
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: puKKa October 14, 2008, 01:44:22 AM
poking n
meaty y
blockstring y
combo filler y
anti air... y

thanks for reading my mind :3

One question though, I've found it quite useful for countering IADs when you are pressured in corner if timed well, also clashes or takes out some lower attacks. Just me being lucky or is this actually somewhere it can be used? As an anti-pressure poke.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra October 14, 2008, 05:35:37 PM
I have no idea, I never tried it. What I do though and I feel is a better solution when I get a good read on an IAD is throw a pot. They'll either get CH or they can try and shield the pot but you have to be really stupid or gutsy to IAD into a shield. Anyway if they shield it you can just keep on blocking.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: puKKa October 15, 2008, 02:35:32 AM
pot might be better as you said, however wouldnt you still be in recovery if they IAD shield and attack? Also 5B against IAD pressure only works against some characters and if the IAD is real IAD and not one too high.

regarding the jBB setup, Where is it that one should delay during the combo for a correct setup?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: ikusat October 15, 2008, 03:32:49 AM
I'm severely disappointed in all of you for ever doubting Chibi.


P.S. THIS POST HAS AN ATTACHMENT
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra October 15, 2008, 06:36:12 AM
pot might be better as you said, however wouldnt you still be in recovery if they IAD shield and attack? Also 5B against IAD pressure only works against some characters and if the IAD is real IAD and not one too high.

regarding the jBB setup, Where is it that one should delay during the combo for a correct setup?

If they IAD shield and you do nothing they land into punishable recovery. Don't get predictable with pots and if they get predictable with IAD you get a highly reliable tool to counter it.

I found out over the time that the real trick to j.BB is in delayed the second j.B. If you watch match vids of Jin or Mr.P and you'll see they often do it too. For 2C 6C j.C ad j.C dj.CBB you want to delay the second j.B, while for 2C 5C 6C j.BC dj.CBB you don't need to delay it.
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: puKKa October 15, 2008, 08:11:29 AM
as in jBjC dj. jC[delay]jBB or jBjC dj. jCjB[delay]B?
: Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
: Sphyra October 15, 2008, 08:43:49 AM
You don't need to delay for that string but for the other string it would be:

2C 6C j.C airdash j.C doublejump j.CB..B.

Basically you just want to do the final j.B at the time where they're highest, this gives you a few more frames upon landing to act. The delay is very light by the way.