When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?

Author Topic: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!  (Read 34970 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AlmightyNam

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Magic Circuits: 7
  • Holy F*ckin shit, my eyeballs
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2007, 04:13:02 PM »
Well, it was a discussion on two differing tactics till Chibi decided to get all angry because I continued to disagree with him.

Regardless of what you say Chibi, the chair is a viable antiair. I know this because I've used it countless times for that exact purpose with a staggering success rate. Now, I will concede to the fact that it may not be the best antiair, 'cause certainly the 623+B was made for the exact purpose of being an antiair, but the chair works. I don't think you realize just how long you have clash frames for and how safe you are when doing it. I don't think frame data has been released for Hisui, and the startup is not instantaneous, but if you know what you're doing, its good enough. So far the only people who have ever caught me more than once at startup was LK and Reloy, and LK was because It was a dumbass decision to use the chair to begin with, and Reloy because he plays against me too much.

Look, this is the last I'm going to say of this, regardless of the reply because arguments on tactics are completely worthless because with just forum posts alone, our arguments go unprovable. Chibi, if you're really this worked up about me liking a tactic, then just beat me. Thats really the only reliable proof of whose tactic is better. You're coming to C3, I should be there. If you can beat the chair in the air, then you'll show me the error in my judgement. If you can't, then admit that you're wrong gracefully. Hell, you don't even have to admit you're wrong, you just have to admit to the possibility that we can both be right.

Offline F9|Chibi

  • Strongest Idiot
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
  • Magic Circuits: 136
  • portrait of eternal joy
    • View Profile
    • Pishi~
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2007, 05:34:43 PM »
5C works as AA for you because your comp sucks.

I've gone through all the bullshit you can imagine in terms of working with Hisui in and out, and at best I'm still a bit above average. I was using 5C two years ago because it was the end all of anything in her arsenal. AA, block strings, tech punishing, etc. Then bara-cancels were discovered, then I stopped using it. Then people like Zar, Sp00ky, and Xaq started baiting the 5C and I got spanked for it hard.

I'm telling you this so you don't form bad habits early on. I don't give a shit about frame data or clash frames or anything. It's not worth using. 5B, 623B, or even running the fuck away with iad jbb are better options. I can't understand how you even consider it an AA, but whatever.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 05:36:45 PM by Master Chibi »
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


pishi.wordpress.com - Updated once a week~

Offline AlmightyNam

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Magic Circuits: 7
  • Holy F*ckin shit, my eyeballs
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2007, 06:08:34 PM »
Dude, the habit has already been made, and I'm trying to fix it. I've admitted to that multiple times in this forum, once even in this thread.

It works as AA for me if you know when its usable. Which, actually, because you said what you said, I realized that, one, I've been unclear what I meant by the chair being an AntiAir, and B, I'm arguing the wrong point about the chair. I've already said this before, the chair should be strictly used to stuff other moves, and SPARINGLY. It shouldn't be spammed till kingdom come, and you will get punished if you do. Also, as I said earlier, the chair is unblockable in the air. What does this mean. If the opponent has used up all jumps getting to youhe's a sitting duck as he lands. Thats when the chair is most effective. What is the opponent going to do? Attack? Clash frames. Block? Unblockable. Air dash? Chair is faster. You see where I'm getting my reasoning? Thats why I've been primarily using it for, but if i know the opponent is going to attack, I'll beat it with the chair. You see? I guess its not(edit:holy shit, I can't believe I forgot to write not) exactly a 100% reliable antiair, but the damage output is nice, and most of the baiting options that people have on the ground don't work in the air, like side dodge, jumping away, bara canceling, etc.

Also, 5B? I know you were just trying to make a point, but that has an even worse startup than 5C.

And just a word of advice when arguing. Back up what you say with evidence, and say it calmly. If you said what you said just now a post ago, I wouldn't have branded you as just "Getting all angry because I disagree with you" and I would've had to seriously rethink my tactic that I was defending. Sure, in the end, we both still don't 100%agree, but I understand where you're coming from now, and I hope you understand where I'm coming from with this post.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 06:10:33 PM by AlmightyNam »

Offline ikusat

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
  • Magic Circuits: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2007, 10:29:58 PM »
Quote
Also, 5B? I know you were just trying to make a point, but that has an even worse startup than 5C.

And just a word of advice when arguing. Back up what you say with evidence, and say it calmly.
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2166078

Offline ikusat

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
  • Magic Circuits: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2007, 10:58:30 PM »
Ok, here's the rest of the post.  I had to break it up into two because otherwise I'd lose some effect out of the one above :B

Veteru:   Hisui 5b = 7f startup
Veteru:   hisui 5c = 13f startup

I think Chibi is just trying to stop the spread of misinformation.  I certainly would not want to recommend a new Hisui player to use 5c as anti air.  Here's why:

5c has a very low vertical hit range(around waist level).  It is no doubt air unblockable, but again, the vertical range is very low.  The success you are seeing with 5c is most likely from the chair hitting the opponent's attack box.  When someone attacks you, their hit box is expanded, and the chair is hitting their newly expanded hit box.  In addition, the chair does have clash frames when she has it above her head(it will never, ever hit there though).

Now go try hitting an empty jump in with 5c.  It is rather difficult as they need to be pretty low to the ground.  Here's where the problem starts to unfold.

If they do an empty jump in while you are relying on them to attack, the 5c will miss and you'll be in for a world of hurt.  In addition, you are pre-empting their attack in this case, and should be using 623b instead.  If you're doing it on reaction, 5b is a much better choice.

If they start their attack higher up, the chair will never hit their attack at all, whether you use it early or late, and you're eating a beefy jump in combo.  The best you can hope is for it to clash.  Again, 623b is a better choice here if you're doing it early, or 5b if you're doing it late.

The only strong points for 5c is that is actually does counter predictable iad attacks very well.  This might be the sole reason you like it so much.  It stuffs low to the ground attacks quite well, and a 100% proration combo starter does lead to big damage.  However, I would not advise you to build tactics and bad habits based on countering sloppy play.

I will admit that I completed discounted 5c as anti air at first, but after analysis, it's still really not a very strong tool for anti air.  It has some merits, but I would definitely not classify it as an anti air attack, and I believe this is what Chibi was trying to say.

Offline F9|Chibi

  • Strongest Idiot
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
  • Magic Circuits: 136
  • portrait of eternal joy
    • View Profile
    • Pishi~
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2007, 11:09:04 PM »
Ikusat, please have my babies.
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


pishi.wordpress.com - Updated once a week~

Offline AlmightyNam

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Magic Circuits: 7
  • Holy F*ckin shit, my eyeballs
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2007, 06:31:13 AM »
Veteru:   Hisui 5b = 7f startup
Veteru:   hisui 5c = 13f startup

I think Chibi is just trying to stop the spread of misinformation.  I certainly would not want to recommend a new Hisui player to use 5c as anti air.  Here's why:
I did not know that. I guess its because there are actual animation frames for the 5B, It looks like it runs slower. Learn somethign knew everyday I suppose. Good to know. Man, I knew 'evidence' was poor word choice.
Quote
5c has a very low vertical hit range(around waist level).  It is no doubt air unblockable, but again, the vertical range is very low.  The success you are seeing with 5c is most likely from the chair hitting the opponent's attack box.  When someone attacks you, their hit box is expanded, and the chair is hitting their newly expanded hit box.  In addition, the chair does have clash frames when she has it above her head(it will never, ever hit there though).

Now go try hitting an empty jump in with 5c.  It is rather difficult as they need to be pretty low to the ground.  Here's where the problem starts to unfold.

If they do an empty jump in while you are relying on them to attack, the 5c will miss and you'll be in for a world of hurt.  In addition, you are pre-empting their attack in this case, and should be using 623b instead.  If you're doing it on reaction, 5b is a much better choice.

If they start their attack higher up, the chair will never hit their attack at all, whether you use it early or late, and you're eating a beefy jump in combo.  The best you can hope is for it to clash.  Again, 623b is a better choice here if you're doing it early, or 5b if you're doing it late.

The only strong points for 5c is that is actually does counter predictable iad attacks very well.  This might be the sole reason you like it so much.  It stuffs low to the ground attacks quite well, and a 100% proration combo starter does lead to big damage.  However, I would not advise you to build tactics and bad habits based on countering sloppy play.

I will admit that I completed discounted 5c as anti air at first, but after analysis, it's still really not a very strong tool for anti air.  It has some merits, but I would definitely not classify it as an anti air attack, and I believe this is what Chibi was trying to say.

Yeah, I can agree with this, and you also accurately stated why I like it so much. Thank you for clarifying what Chibi was doing so poorly to explain. Seriously, if this was done int he beginning it would've shut me up from the beginning.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 06:54:56 AM by AlmightyNam »

Offline F9|Chibi

  • Strongest Idiot
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
  • Magic Circuits: 136
  • portrait of eternal joy
    • View Profile
    • Pishi~
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2007, 07:02:03 AM »
Sorry, I'm not Ikusat, but I know when I'm right.

:\
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


pishi.wordpress.com - Updated once a week~

Offline AlmightyNam

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Magic Circuits: 7
  • Holy F*ckin shit, my eyeballs
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2007, 10:49:19 AM »
Funny because just yesterday, I knew I was right too. Maybe, just because we "know" we are right, doesn't actually mean that we actually are right.

Also, where did you get the frame data, Ikusat? Its not on melty info, and it'd be a great resource to anyone who has ever once thought to play Hisui.

Offline Qaenyin

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 274
  • Magic Circuits: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2007, 12:14:56 PM »
From the act cadenza perfect guide:

Startup Frames for Hisui:

5A:4 Frames
2A:4 Frames
j.A:5 frames
5B:7 Frames
2B:7 Frames
j.B:6 Frames
j.BB(second hit):6 Frames
5C:13 Frames
5C(charged):15 Frames
2C:14 Frames
j.C:9 Frames
j.C(Charged):27 Frames
4B:40 Frames
6B:15 Frames
6C:16 Frames
6CC(Second Hit):14 Frames
6CC 236C(Third Hit):13 Frames
j.2C:12 Frames
Airthrow:1 Frame
Ground Throw:3 Frames
Shield Bunker:1 Frame

Specials:
236A:9 Frames
236B:13 Frames
236(A or B) 236A(Last Hit):12 Frames
236(A or B) 236B(Last Hit):13 Frames
236C:15 Frames
j.236A:9 Frames
j.236B:13 Frames
j.236C:13 Frames

214A/B/C(startup variable on projectile, frames not listed)

623A:12 Frames
623B:11 Frames
623C:2 Frames

22A:96 Frames
22B:98 Frames
22C:(Does not Deal Damage)

Arc Drive:Invulnerable startup when uncharged, startup frames during charge are based on charge length.

Another Arc Drive:Startup is invulnerable.

Last Arc:No startup frames.

Offline linalys

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Magic Circuits: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2007, 12:40:22 PM »
ikusat says 2c is faster now and it's easy to prove. 

Do 2ac and it combos compared to 2a5c which doesn't. 
<Xenozip> actually i think miyako was intuitive for linalys
<Xenozip> simple because his playstyle is.. well..
<Xenozip> linalys
<Xenozip> true chaotic

Offline AlmightyNam

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Magic Circuits: 7
  • Holy F*ckin shit, my eyeballs
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2007, 03:58:04 PM »
Yeah, I know. Its just what happens when you say things without actually wanting to do the research.

This is the frame data for b2 v.1.03, right?

Offline linalys

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Magic Circuits: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2007, 04:38:34 PM »
It's not from the PC version which is what I was trying to point out with my post.  Up there it says 5c is 13 and 2c is 14 and I'm proving it false.  (Proving 2c is faster that is)

That's probably for Arcade B2 or PS2 ver b. 
<Xenozip> actually i think miyako was intuitive for linalys
<Xenozip> simple because his playstyle is.. well..
<Xenozip> linalys
<Xenozip> true chaotic

Offline ikusat

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
  • Magic Circuits: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2007, 06:48:28 PM »
I generally just use relative speeds when comparing moves.  I actually hate dabbling in frame counting, but there's a guy on IRC who loves doing it, so I just ask him.  I consider him a very reliable source of information since he'll usually gets good proof to back up his claims to avoid my WRONG AGAIN VET.

But the 5b faster than 5c thing is very obvious.  5a 5b combos, 5a 5c does not.  That was very instinctual and I just had him count frames just so we all knew exactly how much faster it was.

That list Qaenyin posted looks like it is from version A.  2ac combos in the ps2 version as well, and the jumping 236 attacks have also been sped up, I believe.  Bug Arly to stop being a lazy ass and scan some shit in.

Offline AlmightyNam

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Magic Circuits: 7
  • Holy F*ckin shit, my eyeballs
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2007, 07:20:03 PM »
Yeah, I don't like frame data that much either, but it does come in handy in a situation exactly like this one which could've prevented me from saying something really stupid.

Now, in an attempt of changing the subject, and having a serious question, looking at this vid, every once in a while Jin does an air combo and j.BB's yukinose in the corner(theres one at 0:33). Yukinose bounces, and jin does a 2c to make sure he doesn't tech away so he can do an oki. My question is, what if Yukinose teched instead of bounced? Would Jin have an opportunity for a tech punish? Or would he have been forced to go on the defensive?

Edit:Haha, the second Yukinose vs Jin vid answers my question. But now I have to ask, is it really worth it to do the j.BB that high up? It seems like its betting on the opponent making a mistake, and even though it is a hard thing to tech out of, its still looks to me like an unnecessary risk.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 07:23:37 PM by AlmightyNam »

Offline F9|Chibi

  • Strongest Idiot
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
  • Magic Circuits: 136
  • portrait of eternal joy
    • View Profile
    • Pishi~
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2007, 07:31:05 PM »
If you do 5.A then 2C you will tech punish the opponent regardless of how they decide to tech in the corner, back, foward, or neutral. If they dont' tech at all, the 2c grounds them and you can set up the end of the world for oki right after. There's spacing that needs to be done (which relies mostly on that j.BB) before hand to ensure that 5A 2C will always punish though.
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


pishi.wordpress.com - Updated once a week~

Offline AlmightyNam

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Magic Circuits: 7
  • Holy F*ckin shit, my eyeballs
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2007, 07:37:18 PM »
I knew that, but the thing is when its that high up, they hit the ground and tech faster than you hit the ground. In the second vid, Yukinose does just that, and Jin couldn't punish. The "second vid" i'm talking about is this one around 0:58. Of course, the possibility still exists taht he just missed the timing.

Offline F9|Chibi

  • Strongest Idiot
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
  • Magic Circuits: 136
  • portrait of eternal joy
    • View Profile
    • Pishi~
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2007, 07:48:41 PM »
Actually I'm pretty sure 5A 2C would have nailed him there too.
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


pishi.wordpress.com - Updated once a week~

Offline Sledeau

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • Magic Circuits: 6
  • Talk to the cello, bitch.
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2007, 09:55:39 PM »
Typically to setup the j.bb you want to wait until the last second after a j.c to j.bb. Its mostly vertical spacing you have to worry about. Be careful to not wait too long or else the first j.b will connect but not the second.

Offline ikusat

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 98
  • Magic Circuits: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2007, 10:40:13 PM »
I haven't found a situation where I'd land at an actual disadvantage with jbb.  Even though Hisui might hit the ground after they do, remember they're teching, which also takes some amount of frames.  If you notice at the 0:58 example you were talking about, Hisui whiffs a 2a before Akiha finished teching, and the next 2a gets blocked.  This is merely mistiming the tech punish attack.  In general it's better to use 5a 2c for comboing purposes, but 2ac would have worked just fine if Hisui had delayed the attack by a few more frames.

The jbb punish is basically like this:
Neutral tech, no tech: Do 5a2c6b2a etc right when landing.
Back tech, forward tech: Wait a smidge after landing, then do 5a2c6b2a etc

This is the easiest way to tech punish since you can use the same combo regardless of which tech they use, or if they don't tech at all.

Offline mizuki

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1647
  • Magic Circuits: 125
  • nasty
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2007, 12:08:27 AM »
If you need help I can just post up frame data off of Arly's B1 mook.
what the fuck is this game

Offline Qaenyin

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 274
  • Magic Circuits: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2007, 08:01:41 PM »
The frame data is for the PS2 version.  So not all of it is perfectly accurate, unfortunately.  I dont have the cash to spend another 40$ on the B2 version of the book.

Offline Psydunk

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Magic Circuits: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2007, 01:11:11 PM »
Hi, I'm new to using Hisui, so I have a question. What's a good way to get in with Hisui? I've been watching match vids and trying the stuff I see there, but I always get smacked around when I try it in an actual fight. :(

Offline F9|Chibi

  • Strongest Idiot
  • *****
  • Posts: 2926
  • Magic Circuits: 136
  • portrait of eternal joy
    • View Profile
    • Pishi~
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2007, 02:36:46 PM »
Depends on who you're fighting against.

Her rushdown is pretty solid, but she needs to set up a few things first, and just outright rushing in is a bit of a struggle for her.

In other cases she's better off playing defensively as well.

What characters do you play against?
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


pishi.wordpress.com - Updated once a week~

Offline Psydunk

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Magic Circuits: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2007, 02:49:02 PM »
I fight Nanaya alot mostly. I fight Ciel  and Kohaku/Hisui(Kohaku as the main) alot too, but not as much as Nanaya. I air dash in on them, but they always break my tables before the hit can register against them.