Melty Bread Forums

Atlas Academy => Melty Blood: Act Cadenza => Hisui => : CT_Warrior May 23, 2008, 10:06:16 PM

When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior May 23, 2008, 10:06:16 PM
I'm not saying that I know how to use Hisui as an expert, but I guess it would help to have a section that specifically has to do with.. well, her okizeme.

Ground Throw Okizeme Options (some of these work a lot better if you throw them the other way, 4Q)-

1) Low meaty (2a,2c) It is my experience that you should learn how to time these correctly instead of just mashing 2a since there's a higher chance that you could get thrown or poked. Follow up with whatever blockstrings and hitconfirms that you use.
2) Jump straightup, hold forward immediately (optional jC whiff before switching going behind them because it confuses them, but can sometimes attract unwanted attention to where your sprite is) so that you end up behind them (learn to time it so that you land behind them a little before they fully wakeup)
3) Jump straightup, hold forward after waiting a bit so that you end up in front of them (this won't work well if you don't train them to think it's a crossover.)
3a) Jump straightup, hold forward after waiting a bit , 2b/2c whiff (or hit if you time it really late))
4) walk forward a little, jump diagonal forward, dash backward as late as possible, 2c (time it so that you're dashing backward while they're standing up, or your own discretion)
5) Classic Obento Box/Chair
6) If you have Kohaku assist, I'd recommend using her summons if she's positioned correctly just because it works and it's pretty cute, heheh. Someone needs to write me a guide on how to use them.

EDIT: Whoa, try options 2 with jC whiff and 3a, they seem really identical so much that it's scary. o_o

2C-

I highly don't recommend okizeme for this, just do a damaging combo.
But this is for when you're staggering and you hit it unexpectedly.

1) Wait a bit and do some in the air attacks, however you want, experiment.
2) Obento/Chair
3) Ground meatys


Air Throw Okizeme -

Well, if they don't tech, that is.
1) I don't know how ikusat did it in his Hisui tutorial video on youtube, but he used jB as a crossup.
2) Obento/Chair
3) Ground Meaty
4) Air attacks

Personally, if it was in my ability, I'd do either 1, 2 or 4.
I don't know how to use the obento boxes at all, and I can't do ikusat's thingy. Just plain ground meaties are extremely easy to block (just.. block them) and you can do ground attacks after your air attacks anyway.

: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Numakie May 24, 2008, 04:26:00 AM
Some Okizeme's that i like to use

1)  Super jump forward and then dash back - (expanding a bit more on "Ground Throw Okizime" No4) Essentially you will cross over the enemy twice, baiting them to block wrong.
   
Follow ups:
A. j.C - Perhaps one of the best options in this situation, the Tables hitbox is so out there that it may most likely hit them when they get up.  I like to follow it up with a 236-C and continue the combo from there whether it continues or not.  This may get predictable however if done enough times.

B. Shield - Good players will wise up and may try to counter you with some crazy move (Curse that Ciel)  Use when you know they are gonna do a wake up move you know you cannot beat.

C. Air jump again - Can either be used defensively or as another cross up.

D. j2.C - In theory it may work since you become a massive hitbox going down. Done right, you might be able to cross them over a 3rd time and combo them from there.

E. Just land - Sometimes its better to just go down  and uhh... maybe throw them again or something... or hit em with a 2-B

---
2: EX Dust - Hell, it's there hovering above the opponent. It also opens all sorts of options (not limited to these options of course)
-It gives you 4 hit frames of cover to attempt to do some sort of High-Low game without the opponent noticing.
-It can even cover a Bento/Chair setup while they're standing. 
-If it catches them in a blocking jumping frame, you may be able to throw a guard crush (5A a blocking opponent in the air). 
-If they don't happen to block, then its free combo for you.
If you can spare some meter, might as well throw it out. Careful if the opponent is in Blood Heat though since they can wake up shield and hit you with a Last Arc.  *refers to a random casual against Lina back in uhh.. WT5 (i think) where he shielded my EX dust and killed me with Nanaya's Last arc.* :slowpoke:

---
Other fun, Probably impractical setups.

3: Stand there and do nothing. Then when they wake up, hit em with a 2b ;3

4: 2A whiff right before they get up and then throw them.

Cant think of more atm. :P

--
Oh yes, one other thing.
1) I don't know how ikusat did it in his Hisui tutorial video on youtube, but he used jB as a crossup.

There is actually 2 things going on here.
1. After an air throw, you can air dash, jump, attack, etc before you hit the ground.
2. Her back dash has an interesting property.
     a: If you do nothing during the back dash, then Hisui's backdash will halt prematurally and she will fall to the floor.
     b: If you do a jA, jB, or jC attack in mid backdash, she will keep flying backward rather fast. (If you need a comparison, Iori from KoF has something similar where he dashes back and you hit back-LK to make him go much farther back. It kinda works in a similar fashion.)

So essentially, in Ikusat's video, Hisui will Air throw an opponent, and after she plops them to the ground, she will do a dash back, then press jB to make her zoom over the opponent and land on the floor faster.

Hope this explains this.

-----
For anyone who wants to use any of these tactics i mentioned, use them at your own risk.  >:D
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra May 24, 2008, 05:48:39 AM
As far as meaty goes, 2B, 5B and 5[C] are your best options. Mix up the first two to discourage shielding, and 5[C] also beats low shields and can clash heat a lot.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi May 24, 2008, 09:31:33 PM
2A does not hit low. If you're going to go low always use 2B.

If you throw you should almost always do bento.

If you think they'll backdash after throw / bento set up, then set up B bento to catch the backdash or (if you have A bento set up) use 5C to catch the backdash as well. You can run up and throw as well if you think you've got the read.

And I've got tricks too, but I'm not sharing.

</3
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: abitofBaileys May 25, 2008, 12:45:37 AM
And I've got tricks too, but I'm not sharing.

</3

I beat you with pictures of Hisui naked.

For me, bento is always a good option, and, like Chibi said, the 22B bento for escapers since it's quite fast. Also, I've seen a retarded Sacchin trying to escape with 22A 22C cancel which can be easily predicted, blocked and punished thanks to the bento.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Numakie May 25, 2008, 04:25:52 AM

And I've got tricks too, but I'm not sharing.

</3

Pssh. no luv.  :toot:

I find myself using the bento alot more myself throw. These days I'm trying to use the chair more though. Beyond using the chair to set up more bentos, throw shit or use it as pseudo corner, I am not quite sure what else I can do with the chair.. or rather how to exploit it more...

Perhaps ill do some tests...
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: DJcream June 03, 2008, 04:04:23 PM
meh most of my mixups involve j.2c. Old MvC2 habits work sometimes.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: ikusat June 04, 2008, 01:13:39 AM
Being random is so good in this game that you can use basically anything discussed so far once in a while and it'll probably work.  That being said, bento oki with tick throws and high/low games should be your bread and butter.  Abuse it until it stops working 100%, and then starting throwing random into the mix.  You can probably go a really long way with just tick throws since it's so easy to score one off the bento.

If you face a wake up dp happy player, doing a bento and then neutral jumping towards them is a great way to counter it.  Their dragon punch will go under you, and if they choose to block, you will still land in time to throw them before the bento explodes.  The counter to this setup is a forward dash, but you can do backdash jc if you smell it, but that's just a whole other story.

Note that this only an example and is isn't the only use of the neutral jump wakeup game.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 08, 2008, 06:04:48 PM
ikusat speaks the truth, as usual.
Heheh, I found a lot of better ones that work more often.

Kohaku summons are a lot more useful imo.
A set time that will hit the opponent instead of an obento coverup.

Hisui's plant summon seems more useful than Kohaku's all of a sudden, heheh.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: dakanya June 08, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
who needs summons when you can throw cats and dogs out of your ass, none of kohaku's assists even hit high
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 08, 2008, 08:37:33 PM
I don't know who you're playing, but Kohaku as an assist is garbage, seriously.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 09, 2008, 04:32:04 PM
I'll PM you so that I can also keep it a "secret" if it works. Please don't make fun of me if it doesn't work. ;_;
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra June 09, 2008, 05:11:08 PM
Untill 214 lets me throw Kohaku around at various angles I'll stick to solo Hisui.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Numakie June 09, 2008, 05:14:44 PM
I like playing both versions of Hisui (solo and team). However, I find that stuff'fu has better uses overall then Kohaku Assist.  It is also much safer as well.

-Hisui's call out animation takes a painfully long time to do to use kohaku.  Stuff-fu has 2 versions of start up and an ex version that goes out quickly.
-The opponent can stop Kohaku but they cannot stop the Pot.

I believe that to use Kohaku assist effectively, you have to give up some of your air game (IE: Give up air combo's) for sweep Okizimes.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 09, 2008, 05:45:08 PM
Kohaku assist not being an overheard just destroys any real practical use she would have with Hisui on point. She's too slow, the actual attacks suck, it's just not threatening at all. Stuff-fu is a huge part of Hisui's game, both offensively and defenisvely, so giving them up for Kohaku just doesn't come off as being anywhere near a fair trade.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 09, 2008, 05:51:17 PM
That's true, but I still wanna be a true HisuKoha player, switching around during real matches. Might cost me some, but oh well.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 09, 2008, 06:38:24 PM
A true HisuiKoha player is going to play Kohaku on point and Hisui as an assist, otherwise you're just attempting to inflate your ego by playing a gimped version of Hisui.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra June 10, 2008, 07:29:14 AM
I picked HisuKoha once. "What the hell is that bitch doing there? ...Oh shit wrong character."
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Numakie June 11, 2008, 03:11:50 PM
If only you can have Kohaku and Stuff-fu at the same time... that shiz would be sick  ;D
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 15, 2008, 01:35:22 PM
Well, if you take it at another view. HisuKoha loses her stuff-fu, but gains not only her Kohaku summons, but also Kohaku.
When you have to fight really bad matchups (not only characters, but maybe even people who are just the counters of your style!), then you can just use Kohaku instead.

It works for me, but that's because I'm a low-level player, but I'll just keep using HisuKoha since I only use stuff-fu a few times a game anyway.
I can swear that there are at least some uses for Kohaku summons whether situational or whatever, but I'm not trying to inflat my ego since it means that I can switch between Kohaku and Hisui whenever I want for whatever reason.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: dakanya June 15, 2008, 01:45:37 PM
Does Hisui really have any extremely unfavorable matchups?

Looking at the tier list that Arlieth compiled, it says she's 4.63 against Ciel and Sion, 4.5 against Miyako, and 4.75 against Akiha and V.Akiha. This puts her at a B+ tier and assumes that she has stuff-fu.

Kohaku has so many unfavorable matchups that she's considered to be D tier without her Hisui assists.

HisuKoha is at a C-and it is probably assumed that the dominant character is Kohaku.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 15, 2008, 03:48:35 PM
I always thought the Shikis were her most unfavorable match up.

Go figure.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Numakie June 16, 2008, 12:22:30 AM
Playing HisuKoha more with Hisui lead more, i found that you have a fairly good advantage if you follow sweeps with Kohaku Assists.  Also this Hisui will have to rely much more on her chairs and bentos to support Kohaku assist.  Of course the main problem is keeping the opponent grounded. 

That is how I found it to be while playing around.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 16, 2008, 05:42:31 PM
Bento and chair are good enough on their own, you don't need some half ass set-up with Kohaku to add more to it, especially when someone can literally BLOCK LOW the entire time. I mean pot-book on its own is far better then Kohaku assist period.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: abitofBaileys June 16, 2008, 06:20:37 PM
That's true indeed, the only good thing about Hisui lead is when you do 214C, because you can punish high blockers with 2C, and low blockers eat Kohaku's jC, but even that is not a good one because Kohaku runs to the point where the enemy is when you did the command for 214C, if the enemy moved meanwhile, it won't hit.

So Hisui alone is really better than Hisui Team lead. Stuff-fu.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 16, 2008, 11:12:57 PM
Okay okay, fine.
Hisui > Hisui + Kohaku.

Makes sense. (no sarcasm)
But they're still more fun to play in casuals, and since fun is the point of the game, HisuKoha is better. ^^
And like I said, it's not only character matchups. I find that I can't beat some people without keeping my distance and exploiting my long broom.

I'm probably only saying this because I've never used or seen Stuff-fu usefully, but I really don't see how it's that useful as I rarely see it in higher-level matches.
Videos, anyone?

HisuKoha gain a few more arc drives too.
Is it really that bad to use HisuKoha?

There's always that 22D crossup too. :P
Maybe not for use in actual matches, but it's fun to try to master in casuals. (I actually think there's good potential for it in real matches)
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: abitofBaileys June 17, 2008, 03:05:35 AM
Stuff-fu is useful for lots of stuff since you can control what kind of stuff-fu Hisui throws, 2142A e.g. throws an antiair vase, 2146B punishes HEAT and dashing in.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Pfhor June 17, 2008, 03:26:20 PM
That's true indeed, the only good thing about Hisui lead is when you do 214C, because you can punish high blockers with 2C, and low blockers eat Kohaku's jC, but even that is not a good one because Kohaku runs to the point where the enemy is when you did the command for 214C, if the enemy moved meanwhile, it won't hit.

So Hisui alone is really better than Hisui Team lead. Stuff-fu.

214c Kohaku assist hits mid, that's why it's so useless.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: abitofBaileys June 17, 2008, 04:14:35 PM
...

THAT'S WHY IT ONLY WORKS ON CPU's  :slowpoke: :psyduck: :slowpoke: :psyduck:
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra June 18, 2008, 02:17:19 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2249969

Stuff fu is useful. Kohaku summon is useless.
Solo Hisui has more defense. HisuKoha has less defense.
Good character is fun. Bad character is boring.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 20, 2008, 08:41:46 PM
I think I finally found a use for a Kohaku summon.

If you throw them when they're in the corner, putting down an obento or chair is useless.
So what you do: 214B.

Throw - 214B

1) 2a, IAD jB whiff or jC hold-fake (if they react too slow) , grab/2b (Most of the time they don't react to the IAD jB for some reason, and then they try to process than you already landed and may attack low, at that time, their blockstun ends and you can grab them) jB whiff lands faster for lowmixup, jC has more of a guarentee on the tickthrow
And if they do block it, well, you still get to continue your pressure. Nothing's guaranteed to work anyway.

2) 2a, IAD jC (if they react too slow, you might as well hit them)

3) 2a2b5a, grab/2c (basically adds more pressure, better than nothing)

4) crouchguard, grab
Already a good mixup with her throw.

214B gives you a mixup opportunity as well as add some more confusing pressure as they will lose some sense of when their blockstun ends.
Unless anyone has better okizeme options when you throw them in the corner?

And occasionally, I use 22D to get out of pressure when they jump, it might be able to be used well.
There aren't many "true" (in my definition) HisuKoha players, so you might as well let me experiment and tell me when I'm wrong or right.

I like being able to take out a broomstick when I need it, especially against a better Aoko. x_x
You can argue that you might as well change characters at the beginning of the round but I bet you wouldn't.
You'll only want to stick with one character and be able to beat that Aoko with less concern of tiers.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 20, 2008, 09:15:00 PM
What are you on man, seriously?

How the hell can you say chair or bento is useless?

Bento ALONE trumps that entire 'setup' you have with Kohaku.

I mean you can try and run Hisui point with Kohaku assist all you want, but Kohaku assist really, REALLY is garbage man. Stuff-fu is far too good on its own to warrant playing interchangable maids, and Kohaku with Hisui assist is LIGHT YEARS better then the opposite, to the point where you really are just gimping yourself trying to go between the two to better your chances in certain match ups. It's seriously just not worth it. I mean of all things you're actually getting less defense man, and that's not something you want in this game.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Pfhor June 20, 2008, 09:24:55 PM
In the corner, when you dash throw (a normal walking throw will still put the bento close enough though) somebody, hisui's bento and chair go off screen and don't really do anything, except maybe on characters that have large hitboxes. That is what he is referring to.

In that specific situation, 214b Kohaku assist is way superior to bento.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 20, 2008, 09:29:48 PM
Still not worth playing Hisui lead for~

<3
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 20, 2008, 10:36:00 PM
Even if they are gimped, HisuKoha is still very playable.
It's not much different from a person choosing a lower-tier character because that character was his or her favorite.

Maybe it's not worth switching if Hisui's already your main, but HisuKoha isn't that bad. >_>

In that video, stuff-fu was only useful against Aoko, but it wasn't really used against Kohaku who likes to stay on the offense.
If I used Hisui I wouldn't really use stuff-fu that much, so I'm just going to stick with HisuKoha.

It's only 6% more damage, it's not that much. It might cost me a few matches, but not really.


: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 20, 2008, 11:15:37 PM
Dude, pot-book is an absurdly good tool, it practically creates her offense in a gigantic chunk of her match ups. I mean think about it, it's a projectile you can quickly follow up with a mix up after. No matter WHAT, it's going to help you get in, and getting in and STAYING in is where Hisui becomes an absolute monster. When you get rid of that simply to have the means to play Kohaku, you're just wrongly gimping the character.  It's more like playing with 1 1/2 characters instead of two. I mean big shit you get Kohaku assist, now you have to find a way to get in, or a better way to play defensively sans stuff-fu.

I mean sure, you're free to play Hisui without one of her best tools, but that's why I said it becomes a matter of silly pride. Hisui is scary enough on her own, adding Kohaku assist literally doesn't make her any scarier, she just doesn't need it.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra June 21, 2008, 06:32:10 AM
Even off screen bento serve their purpose. People know they sometimes blow up randomly so they'll still sit down scared.

Stuff fu has so much more potential over Kohaku that I don't know how you can even compare the two. You can completely lock down the air with pots, ground with lamps or books, both with pot books. This means against certain characters like Satsuki who can't do shit on the ground for movement, you lock down that character completely. Bitch can't even come at you without spamming shield like an idiot which is risky enough in itself. Not to mention A version stuff fu comes out so fast it will trade with many things and give you a CH to work with. If you know they're going to IAD in their blockstring, throw a pot you get a free CH.

All that makes it so much more worth it than a redundant Kohaku assist which a bento already does everything you might try to do with her, except even better.

And this isn't a matter of playing a character you like either. You're playing the exact same character, except one's a beast and one's a gimp.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Frostbolt June 21, 2008, 07:44:15 AM
I dont use Stuff fu much >.> I wonder

Offscreen bento's...
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 21, 2008, 11:13:25 AM
I agree with (almost) everything you had to say but.
Even though stuff-fu is infinitely better, without any hint or need for doubt, I just like HisuKoha too much. :P

Therefore, even without her most important tool that makes her worth using, I still want to be able to master this gimped version of Hisui as much as I can.
I already understand how important stuff-fu is and I still want to play Hisu-Koha.

Obviously I went to the wrong place when I went to the Hisui forums, but everyone in HisuKoha uses Koha (another point against me)
You have frame advantage if you do 5a2c214A which I think can be better than an obento setup in the corner depending on your opponent.

Yes, still not worth switching, but oh well. ~_~
HisuKoha may have better okizeme options in certain situations.
HisuKoha loses her most important stuff-fu.

I'll try to find more.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi June 21, 2008, 10:42:26 PM
Well then I'm going to just have to come out and say you're a freaking MORON for wanting to run HisuKohaku. What you lose by running maids with Hisui on point does not equal in the slightest what you are gaining (which in reality, is almost close to nothing). Hisui on point in maids is a joke. Have fun handicapping yourself in every match guy, seriously.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior June 22, 2008, 12:07:56 AM
Agreed..

PISHI!
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior July 01, 2008, 03:13:24 PM
By the way, I don't understand how to use the obento okizeme.
If I hit them 2a/2b/5b on wakeup, then try to do a mixup, they just backdash.
If I leave no holes, then.. I just continue my pressure as normal as though the obento were never there.

Anyone have example obento uses?
(At this point, I think Kohaku summons are superior than obentos [but still agree Stuff-fu is more useful])
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi July 01, 2008, 05:36:59 PM
Dude, why do you keep contradicting us when we try and help?

Kohaku summon is ASS compared to bento. Complete and utter trash. Your opinion is horrible. The people that you play suck.

Look at it this way buddy:

You nail a throw. Put down (A) bento.

Now they'll try something along the lines of:

A) Sitting there and blocking the bento.
B) Backdashing away from the bento.
C) Jumping straight up and likely away from the bento.
D) Shielding your meaty and then trying to get away.

Here's what you can do in anticipation.

If they go with A, hey all the better they respect your oki.

If they go with B, then just hold 5C down to chase them. You can also IAD after them. Another option is to set up (B) bento, as to catch them backdashing, and also allowing to follow up.

If they go with C, well then have an early j.C ready right above their head. Timing your meaties correctly should also keep this from happnening.

As for the last option, if they go with D, then run up and throw again, or 5C. That's easily the worst option to go for, given the delay in the bento exploding.

You have to pound it into your opponent's head that trying these things is something you will always have an answer for, and that's where the game starts to become lots of fun.

But dude, if you bloody contradict us again, then don't bother asking for help, please, it's really annoying.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: YuenSan July 01, 2008, 06:00:10 PM
ikusat's vid can help out here as you can see it'll display wut MC just said somewhere around 2:34. Kohaku sweeps somewhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRF2tZPdnec
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra July 01, 2008, 07:13:48 PM
They might also try to reversal your bento setup but you can simply wait and see, and if they don't do anything you still have time to throw them before bento blows up.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior July 05, 2008, 07:56:22 PM
Well, I've been playing with a lot of better players, and I improved very quickly because of them.
terry, romc, Prinny, and Munsu mostly, if not always.

I found that most of the tactics that work against better players.. don't work on the newer players who mash.
Frozen, I'll tell you an easy counter to the predictable obento setups: throw.

If you hit them with 2a and they block it, they have frame advantage, and would be the one throwing you while the obento blows up wastefully.
In normal 2a/5a tickthrows, you mixup your 2a/5a and your grab so they don't know which one you'll use. If they guess wrong, they'll either get poked or thrown.

In an obento setup, if you throw more than one 2a/5a, the obentos gonna explode and you're not gonna get your tickthrow (but a combo if you use another attack).
Resetting the obento is not something I really recommend until you train them to block. Besides, it's better to try for a combo instead of just a weak throw.

Chibi's examples were the ones that were the most accurate (completely accurate actually, but it doesn't sound right saying it that way).
Look at your "wakeup reversal and wakeup jump" that's already a 50% guessing game.

The reason I still say Kohaku summons are superior is because I've found a setup that's heat-safe, shield/ex-shield safe, EX reversal safe, backdash safe, parry safe, and jump safe all at once, where you can punish them with either a throw, a hit or two, or even a full BnB depending on which one they do. You also get a crossup if they block (even if it's extremely easy to block).

Another setup that assumes they'll block that's harder to block is there too.
I don't know the potential of obento setups as I've never used them seriously, so I'm not gonna contradict anyone but agree with myself.

: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra July 05, 2008, 09:03:14 PM
The reason I still say Kohaku summons are superior...
I don't know the potential of obento setups as I've never used them seriously

lol?

Wait then throw beats all of these options except jump (including wakeup throws, stop standing in their throw range), and nobody with half a brain is going to jump on a regular basis against bento. You don't need a gimped ass character to beat retards.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior July 06, 2008, 12:57:51 AM
Whatever. You're the one starting all the flames.
You think obento is better. You know obento is better.
I think kohaku summons are better. I know kohaku summons are better.

That's the only difference in opinion between us, yet all you do is disagree and swear.
The only "contradiction" I said was that kohaku summons are better.

If you can't deal with one simple disagreement, then YOU gtfo.
I've never insulted you once, just calm down, okay? Accept that there's an idiot who uses HisuKoha in the Hisui forums trying to prove he's not an idiot and stop swearing so much for one.
And Sphyra, you've got me misunderstood.

I'm saying that using obento as a tickthrow too predictably is easily countered by spamming anything, being blown up by the obento and not being further punished because your opponent is in hitstun. Then you can only use the obento to keep them blocking, and I think Kohaku summons do a better job at that by preventing some of their other options and giving you some more options for mixups instead of having to make sure they sit still.

Obentos aren't bad, I just think Kohaku summons are better at doing what obentos are supposed to do.
Never once did I say that obentos are horrible and that it is completely conquered by a countergrab. That's retarded.

EDIT: Oh. When I made that last post. I was referring to the obento setups listed in Frozen's post. :P
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Alfonse July 06, 2008, 02:11:43 AM
Chibi thinks that his method is the absolute way of playing Hisui. He will simply blast any variation you try to bring up.  :V
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi July 06, 2008, 09:36:53 AM
I don't care what you think about bento CT, because you play HisuKoha, and this forum is not regulated for that pair. This forum is for Hisui, who has stuff-fu, and who has to rely on bento.

Just please take your strats and leave them in that forum, because you're already demoralizing a tool you've stated to not be able to utilize properly. Great, you think Kohaku summon is better, but this isn't the place to tell anyone about it.

I don't want people think stuff-fu and bento are bad, because in reality they're extremely good tools, that's all.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior July 06, 2008, 12:13:23 PM
Fair enough, but we already agreed that HisuKoha forums are all KohaHisu players and I'm all alone. ;_;
It makes more sense to put it in a Hisui Throw Okizeme thread instead of a KohaHisu forum.

Plus, I've agreed that stuff-fu is a useful tool and that any gains (if any) with Kohaku summons are not worth the loss and that obentos are good.
I never said they were bad. :/

Frozen: I'm saying that their options are not defeated by grabbing. If they see that you're gonna grab, they'll change what they're gonna do and stuff you with an attack or grab you instead.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Sphyra July 06, 2008, 11:06:15 PM
Frozen: I'm saying that their options are not defeated by grabbing. If they see that you're gonna grab, they'll change what they're gonna do and stuff you with an attack or grab you instead.

Stuff you? And get counter hit by bento.

Grab you? I put down a bento on Zar pointblank this weekend, took a step backward, he whiffed his wakeup throw attempt, I walked back in and threw him.

The ONLY thing that beats bento in the corner, which is where they should be all the time if you're doing your j.bb strings properly, is jump and the risks of jumping far outweight the risks of blocking so you can get consistent throws off bento. Doesn't fucking matters if it's obvious, all they can do is sit there and take it up the ass.

You're telling us Kohaku summons are superior when you admit yourself you don't even know how to use bentos. That's what's ticking me off here. You come in here, ask us how to do everything, and then spit on our shit and come up with your own half assed combos and tactics and tell us it's fucking better? gtfo, seriously. You really gotta wonder why people don't talk about maid pair hisui lead even in the right fucking section of the forums.
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: CT_Warrior July 07, 2008, 10:06:01 AM
Well, it all depends then.

"Stuff you? And get counter hit by bento."
Depends on how late it is. Normally I have plenty of time to do 2c 2a and block the obento when my friend tries to grab me on my wakeup.
Even then, you can normally just poke one 2a and block the obento. But this is if they see that you're gonna grab.

"Grab you?"
Well he didn't exactly foresee a grab, he just tried to grab. Maybe after something obvious like 2a dashthrow.

Obento in corner seems good from what I see.

"You're telling us Kohaku summons are superior when you admit yourself you don't even know how to use bentos."
That's why I asked how to use them, to see if they are better. And I didn't see it.

Sure, it looks like I was being an asshole, but that wasn't my intention. I wasn't "spitting on your shit." I just needed to try to prove the point that obentos are supposed to keep them blocking, and not be used as a tickthrow. And if that were the case, then Kohaku summons force them to block more. And if that weren't the case, I would probably use obentos instead of kohaku summons, since I still have them even as a pair.

"You really gotta wonder why people don't talk about maid pair hisui lead even in the right fucking section of the forums."

I've seen the posts. Most of them are from people who never really tried to utilize kohaku summons, and are just spreading the word as you are. It gets put down so much (such as now) that few people even bother to try it. And from those few people, they're already convinced that they're crap before they learn how to properly use them.

As for why I'm ticked off.
People are always dissing Kohaku summons, even when someone claims that they have a good setup, they don't bother asking because they think it's crap. Even though I don't really know how to use obento setups, I tried to learn by asking so that I could compare the two better. Even with that, I get misinterpreted that I'm trying to spit on your shit. Maybe I am, but it's not my intention, and if it wasn't intended, then you shouldn't take it as such. Even when some of you get to throw out some of your setups, I get shot down before I can even try.

If that's the case, then I will gtfo. I don't know why I bothered to explain Kohaku summons to Hisui elistists anyway. I am stupid. (but you don't need to confirm that!)
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi July 07, 2008, 05:42:59 PM
Good, now we can get this entire forum cleaned out and start over again.

Elitists he says.

 :mystery:
: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: Dipstick July 10, 2008, 10:54:49 AM
OK so I just deleted about 15 posts in this thread.

CT_Warrior, you need to chill out and post HisuKoha strategy in the HisuKoha forum.

Master Chibi, you need to stop senselessly flaming people while providing zero content to the actual thread. This is not the first time you have instigated in the strategy forums either, ugh. Maybe you'll gain that privilege when you're not zero-for-life in Hisui mirror MMs. :V

Everyone else, please act less retarded.

: Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
: F9|Chibi July 10, 2008, 05:46:07 PM
I provided content to questions he asked, only to have it shot back at me.

Dude, can you just get rid of every thread in this forum except for the tech punish one?