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Author Topic: Hisui Throw Okizeme  (Read 20951 times)

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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2008, 11:12:57 PM »
Okay okay, fine.
Hisui > Hisui + Kohaku.

Makes sense. (no sarcasm)
But they're still more fun to play in casuals, and since fun is the point of the game, HisuKoha is better. ^^
And like I said, it's not only character matchups. I find that I can't beat some people without keeping my distance and exploiting my long broom.

I'm probably only saying this because I've never used or seen Stuff-fu usefully, but I really don't see how it's that useful as I rarely see it in higher-level matches.
Videos, anyone?

HisuKoha gain a few more arc drives too.
Is it really that bad to use HisuKoha?

There's always that 22D crossup too. :P
Maybe not for use in actual matches, but it's fun to try to master in casuals. (I actually think there's good potential for it in real matches)

Offline Rowanism

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2008, 03:05:35 AM »
Stuff-fu is useful for lots of stuff since you can control what kind of stuff-fu Hisui throws, 2142A e.g. throws an antiair vase, 2146B punishes HEAT and dashing in.
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Offline Pfhor

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2008, 03:26:20 PM »
That's true indeed, the only good thing about Hisui lead is when you do 214C, because you can punish high blockers with 2C, and low blockers eat Kohaku's jC, but even that is not a good one because Kohaku runs to the point where the enemy is when you did the command for 214C, if the enemy moved meanwhile, it won't hit.

So Hisui alone is really better than Hisui Team lead. Stuff-fu.

214c Kohaku assist hits mid, that's why it's so useless.

Offline Rowanism

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2008, 04:14:35 PM »
...

THAT'S WHY IT ONLY WORKS ON CPU's  :slowpoke: :psyduck: :slowpoke: :psyduck:
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Offline Sphyra

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2008, 02:17:19 PM »
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2249969

Stuff fu is useful. Kohaku summon is useless.
Solo Hisui has more defense. HisuKoha has less defense.
Good character is fun. Bad character is boring.
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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2008, 08:41:46 PM »
I think I finally found a use for a Kohaku summon.

If you throw them when they're in the corner, putting down an obento or chair is useless.
So what you do: 214B.

Throw - 214B

1) 2a, IAD jB whiff or jC hold-fake (if they react too slow) , grab/2b (Most of the time they don't react to the IAD jB for some reason, and then they try to process than you already landed and may attack low, at that time, their blockstun ends and you can grab them) jB whiff lands faster for lowmixup, jC has more of a guarentee on the tickthrow
And if they do block it, well, you still get to continue your pressure. Nothing's guaranteed to work anyway.

2) 2a, IAD jC (if they react too slow, you might as well hit them)

3) 2a2b5a, grab/2c (basically adds more pressure, better than nothing)

4) crouchguard, grab
Already a good mixup with her throw.

214B gives you a mixup opportunity as well as add some more confusing pressure as they will lose some sense of when their blockstun ends.
Unless anyone has better okizeme options when you throw them in the corner?

And occasionally, I use 22D to get out of pressure when they jump, it might be able to be used well.
There aren't many "true" (in my definition) HisuKoha players, so you might as well let me experiment and tell me when I'm wrong or right.

I like being able to take out a broomstick when I need it, especially against a better Aoko. x_x
You can argue that you might as well change characters at the beginning of the round but I bet you wouldn't.
You'll only want to stick with one character and be able to beat that Aoko with less concern of tiers.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 09:00:10 PM by CT_Warrior »

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2008, 09:15:00 PM »
What are you on man, seriously?

How the hell can you say chair or bento is useless?

Bento ALONE trumps that entire 'setup' you have with Kohaku.

I mean you can try and run Hisui point with Kohaku assist all you want, but Kohaku assist really, REALLY is garbage man. Stuff-fu is far too good on its own to warrant playing interchangable maids, and Kohaku with Hisui assist is LIGHT YEARS better then the opposite, to the point where you really are just gimping yourself trying to go between the two to better your chances in certain match ups. It's seriously just not worth it. I mean of all things you're actually getting less defense man, and that's not something you want in this game.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 09:16:52 PM by Master Chibi »
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Offline Pfhor

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2008, 09:24:55 PM »
In the corner, when you dash throw (a normal walking throw will still put the bento close enough though) somebody, hisui's bento and chair go off screen and don't really do anything, except maybe on characters that have large hitboxes. That is what he is referring to.

In that specific situation, 214b Kohaku assist is way superior to bento.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 09:30:06 PM by Pfhor »

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2008, 09:29:48 PM »
Still not worth playing Hisui lead for~

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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2008, 10:36:00 PM »
Even if they are gimped, HisuKoha is still very playable.
It's not much different from a person choosing a lower-tier character because that character was his or her favorite.

Maybe it's not worth switching if Hisui's already your main, but HisuKoha isn't that bad. >_>

In that video, stuff-fu was only useful against Aoko, but it wasn't really used against Kohaku who likes to stay on the offense.
If I used Hisui I wouldn't really use stuff-fu that much, so I'm just going to stick with HisuKoha.

It's only 6% more damage, it's not that much. It might cost me a few matches, but not really.



Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2008, 11:15:37 PM »
Dude, pot-book is an absurdly good tool, it practically creates her offense in a gigantic chunk of her match ups. I mean think about it, it's a projectile you can quickly follow up with a mix up after. No matter WHAT, it's going to help you get in, and getting in and STAYING in is where Hisui becomes an absolute monster. When you get rid of that simply to have the means to play Kohaku, you're just wrongly gimping the character.  It's more like playing with 1 1/2 characters instead of two. I mean big shit you get Kohaku assist, now you have to find a way to get in, or a better way to play defensively sans stuff-fu.

I mean sure, you're free to play Hisui without one of her best tools, but that's why I said it becomes a matter of silly pride. Hisui is scary enough on her own, adding Kohaku assist literally doesn't make her any scarier, she just doesn't need it.
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Offline Sphyra

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2008, 06:32:10 AM »
Even off screen bento serve their purpose. People know they sometimes blow up randomly so they'll still sit down scared.

Stuff fu has so much more potential over Kohaku that I don't know how you can even compare the two. You can completely lock down the air with pots, ground with lamps or books, both with pot books. This means against certain characters like Satsuki who can't do shit on the ground for movement, you lock down that character completely. Bitch can't even come at you without spamming shield like an idiot which is risky enough in itself. Not to mention A version stuff fu comes out so fast it will trade with many things and give you a CH to work with. If you know they're going to IAD in their blockstring, throw a pot you get a free CH.

All that makes it so much more worth it than a redundant Kohaku assist which a bento already does everything you might try to do with her, except even better.

And this isn't a matter of playing a character you like either. You're playing the exact same character, except one's a beast and one's a gimp.
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Offline Frostbolt

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2008, 07:44:15 AM »
I dont use Stuff fu much >.> I wonder

Offscreen bento's...
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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2008, 11:13:25 AM »
I agree with (almost) everything you had to say but.
Even though stuff-fu is infinitely better, without any hint or need for doubt, I just like HisuKoha too much. :P

Therefore, even without her most important tool that makes her worth using, I still want to be able to master this gimped version of Hisui as much as I can.
I already understand how important stuff-fu is and I still want to play Hisu-Koha.

Obviously I went to the wrong place when I went to the Hisui forums, but everyone in HisuKoha uses Koha (another point against me)
You have frame advantage if you do 5a2c214A which I think can be better than an obento setup in the corner depending on your opponent.

Yes, still not worth switching, but oh well. ~_~
HisuKoha may have better okizeme options in certain situations.
HisuKoha loses her most important stuff-fu.

I'll try to find more.

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2008, 10:42:26 PM »
Well then I'm going to just have to come out and say you're a freaking MORON for wanting to run HisuKohaku. What you lose by running maids with Hisui on point does not equal in the slightest what you are gaining (which in reality, is almost close to nothing). Hisui on point in maids is a joke. Have fun handicapping yourself in every match guy, seriously.
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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2008, 12:07:56 AM »
Agreed..

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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2008, 03:13:24 PM »
By the way, I don't understand how to use the obento okizeme.
If I hit them 2a/2b/5b on wakeup, then try to do a mixup, they just backdash.
If I leave no holes, then.. I just continue my pressure as normal as though the obento were never there.

Anyone have example obento uses?
(At this point, I think Kohaku summons are superior than obentos [but still agree Stuff-fu is more useful])

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2008, 05:36:59 PM »
Dude, why do you keep contradicting us when we try and help?

Kohaku summon is ASS compared to bento. Complete and utter trash. Your opinion is horrible. The people that you play suck.

Look at it this way buddy:

You nail a throw. Put down (A) bento.

Now they'll try something along the lines of:

A) Sitting there and blocking the bento.
B) Backdashing away from the bento.
C) Jumping straight up and likely away from the bento.
D) Shielding your meaty and then trying to get away.

Here's what you can do in anticipation.

If they go with A, hey all the better they respect your oki.

If they go with B, then just hold 5C down to chase them. You can also IAD after them. Another option is to set up (B) bento, as to catch them backdashing, and also allowing to follow up.

If they go with C, well then have an early j.C ready right above their head. Timing your meaties correctly should also keep this from happnening.

As for the last option, if they go with D, then run up and throw again, or 5C. That's easily the worst option to go for, given the delay in the bento exploding.

You have to pound it into your opponent's head that trying these things is something you will always have an answer for, and that's where the game starts to become lots of fun.

But dude, if you bloody contradict us again, then don't bother asking for help, please, it's really annoying.
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Offline YuenSan

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2008, 06:00:10 PM »
ikusat's vid can help out here as you can see it'll display wut MC just said somewhere around 2:34. Kohaku sweeps somewhere else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRF2tZPdnec
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Offline Sphyra

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2008, 07:13:48 PM »
They might also try to reversal your bento setup but you can simply wait and see, and if they don't do anything you still have time to throw them before bento blows up.
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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2008, 07:56:22 PM »
Well, I've been playing with a lot of better players, and I improved very quickly because of them.
terry, romc, Prinny, and Munsu mostly, if not always.

I found that most of the tactics that work against better players.. don't work on the newer players who mash.
Frozen, I'll tell you an easy counter to the predictable obento setups: throw.

If you hit them with 2a and they block it, they have frame advantage, and would be the one throwing you while the obento blows up wastefully.
In normal 2a/5a tickthrows, you mixup your 2a/5a and your grab so they don't know which one you'll use. If they guess wrong, they'll either get poked or thrown.

In an obento setup, if you throw more than one 2a/5a, the obentos gonna explode and you're not gonna get your tickthrow (but a combo if you use another attack).
Resetting the obento is not something I really recommend until you train them to block. Besides, it's better to try for a combo instead of just a weak throw.

Chibi's examples were the ones that were the most accurate (completely accurate actually, but it doesn't sound right saying it that way).
Look at your "wakeup reversal and wakeup jump" that's already a 50% guessing game.

The reason I still say Kohaku summons are superior is because I've found a setup that's heat-safe, shield/ex-shield safe, EX reversal safe, backdash safe, parry safe, and jump safe all at once, where you can punish them with either a throw, a hit or two, or even a full BnB depending on which one they do. You also get a crossup if they block (even if it's extremely easy to block).

Another setup that assumes they'll block that's harder to block is there too.
I don't know the potential of obento setups as I've never used them seriously, so I'm not gonna contradict anyone but agree with myself.


Offline Sphyra

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2008, 09:03:14 PM »
The reason I still say Kohaku summons are superior...
I don't know the potential of obento setups as I've never used them seriously

lol?

Wait then throw beats all of these options except jump (including wakeup throws, stop standing in their throw range), and nobody with half a brain is going to jump on a regular basis against bento. You don't need a gimped ass character to beat retards.
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Offline CT_Warrior

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2008, 12:57:51 AM »
Whatever. You're the one starting all the flames.
You think obento is better. You know obento is better.
I think kohaku summons are better. I know kohaku summons are better.

That's the only difference in opinion between us, yet all you do is disagree and swear.
The only "contradiction" I said was that kohaku summons are better.

If you can't deal with one simple disagreement, then YOU gtfo.
I've never insulted you once, just calm down, okay? Accept that there's an idiot who uses HisuKoha in the Hisui forums trying to prove he's not an idiot and stop swearing so much for one.
And Sphyra, you've got me misunderstood.

I'm saying that using obento as a tickthrow too predictably is easily countered by spamming anything, being blown up by the obento and not being further punished because your opponent is in hitstun. Then you can only use the obento to keep them blocking, and I think Kohaku summons do a better job at that by preventing some of their other options and giving you some more options for mixups instead of having to make sure they sit still.

Obentos aren't bad, I just think Kohaku summons are better at doing what obentos are supposed to do.
Never once did I say that obentos are horrible and that it is completely conquered by a countergrab. That's retarded.

EDIT: Oh. When I made that last post. I was referring to the obento setups listed in Frozen's post. :P
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 01:04:18 AM by CT_Warrior »

Offline Alfonse

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2008, 02:11:43 AM »
Chibi thinks that his method is the absolute way of playing Hisui. He will simply blast any variation you try to bring up.  :V
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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui Throw Okizeme
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2008, 09:36:53 AM »
I don't care what you think about bento CT, because you play HisuKoha, and this forum is not regulated for that pair. This forum is for Hisui, who has stuff-fu, and who has to rely on bento.

Just please take your strats and leave them in that forum, because you're already demoralizing a tool you've stated to not be able to utilize properly. Great, you think Kohaku summon is better, but this isn't the place to tell anyone about it.

I don't want people think stuff-fu and bento are bad, because in reality they're extremely good tools, that's all.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 09:41:53 AM by Master Chibi »
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