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Author Topic: Nero's pressure options  (Read 5317 times)

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Offline Nerk

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Nero's pressure options
« on: August 29, 2008, 09:48:36 AM »
Harro

I started this thread to discuss some of Nero's options when it comes to pressure. From what i can piece together, he pretty much has no high-low game, and his pressure is based mostly on the fear of being thrown, and punishing those who are too eager to get out. My current tactics are:

Airthrow into corner -> Ex crows -> either: 2a or 2b
                                                          Delayed 2b
                                                          Walk up and throw

I have that part down, but what follows after that is kind of a blur. I mostly follow up with 2b -> 214b or 421a. If it's snake, my opponent either jumps out and away, or jump attacks into me with no time for me to counter with 2c. If it's deer, it'll get blocked and i'll be too far away to do much else. I also have a habit of getting eaten by long range EX or Nanaya 214b if i ever decide to end a string with a summon. I can whiff cancel 2b with 5a, but then my next attack will get beaten out by a faster character's 2a most of the time.

So yeah, my pressuring abilities are fail and i'd like to improve. Any tips from solid Nero players would be appreciated  :teach:

Offline GenericSuperhero

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 11:05:38 PM »
My 3AM advice; I might have missed your real question:


It matters very much where you are airthrowing from:
If you are airthrowing at the wall and landing right next to the opponent, there is a set of options different from if you are airthrowing after a crossup jc airdash and landing about the range of 2b away.
To clarify, crossup jc airdash would be when you jc the opponent away from the wall, airdash after him, and throw him back into the corner.  This is the safer setup.

If you're landing next to them, having ex crows out is effectively largely the same as having nothing at all in terms of your options; it just worries the opponent because he will take extra damage from a throw and he will be more inclined to expect you to throw because of this if he is inexperienced.  And yes, if he stands unblocking in front of the crows doing something, he may get hit.

You have the basic option of meaty or throw, and you have to watch out for DP's and heats if you are going for either.  As a meaty, 5b is the fastest and allows you to delay as much as possible before revealing your intention.  If you expect a DP, just block and punish.  If you expect heat, avoid it and punish.

It's simple rock-paper-scissors at this range.  If you guess that the opponent is not going to attack, you can use summons.  Some long range ex attacks with teleports will get you on reaction, so you just have to be safe if the opponent has enough meter.  Summon setups at this range are not very complicated; they're just like normal pressure.  A deer or snake followed by aggression or, if you expect the opponent to block, more summons which can begin a serious summon setup.  At that range, an A deer would be very unreliable unless you know it will turn around and hit.  In all likelihood though, if you don't throw then you will end up in a normal corner pressure situation.  Anything you could do after not throwing you could have done without the crows anyway.

Be aware of people who try to ex shield, jump and shield, chicken jump, etc.  If you can't punish, bring out more summons to make the ground dangerous and force the opponent to stay airborne.  Use your ground to air while aware that you may be ex shielded especially if the opponent knows he can only avoid getting hit by shielding.  Of course, you can go airborne if you think it's right.


Regarding the faraway ex crows setups:
Use your imagination.  At this distance, you can use a meaty to keep them from escaping the ex crows and still have time to put up another summon such as B crow in a matter of time so that the opponent will be under continuous attack.  With a second summon approaching the opponent, you could be using a third summon or, more likely, moving forwards while covering the opponent's air escape/attack route.  If he doesn't aggress, he'll be in blockstun as you land.  If you time correctly, you can end up right next to the opponent with a third summon keeping him blocking while you put out something right next to him.  Now you have something nasty for him to think about while you're right next to him ready to throw or hit.  Of course, this sequence should be broken at any time if the opponent tries to escape; his options will be limited by having summons all over the place and you should be able to punish.  Until the opponent is in blockstun, however, you still have to be wary of long range DP's.

Faraway ex crows setup is one of the few Nero pressure/mixup options that does not have gaping, punishable holes in it.  If you time properly, your summons will keep you as safe as if you were a character who could actually keep an opponent safely in blockstun.

The difference in pressure between the two setups is enormous.  In the former, you just have extra damage and an air buffer.  In the latter, summons are blocking many of the opponent's routes and leaving only one or two options at any given time.  This means you have less things to worry about while he has more to worry about as he tries to choose the correct course of action.  If you get something next to him, you have one of Nero's scariest situations.  The opponent can be thrown at any time, but if he tries to attack, jump, or counterthrow he not only has to worry about the possibility of a meaty, but also the summon hitting him.

To exemplify the pressure, if locked down by an ex deer with Nero right next to him, an opponent is pressured at each charge by the deer.  After blocking one deer strike, there is a small window in which Nero can throw, meaty, or defend.  The opponent will get owned if he is left open while doing something and gets hit by the deer, will get owned if he tries to do something and the Nero meaties, and will take a 2k+ dmg throw if he gets thrown.  If he gets hitconfirmed, he takes Nero's most damaging combos which are in combination with the deer.  In the case of just having ex crows above his head and Nero next to him as in close range ex crow setup, none of these factors are present.

The thing about the faraway ex crow setups is that the opponent will most likely try to escape at some point and you have a large advantage against him.  In the case that he decides to just defend, you end up with close range, summon assisted pressure assuming you didn't break into a high/low mixup or just decide to throw at some point in the setup, which is another option. 

Idk how useful, accurate, or coherent this is but it's something i guess.  other, more qualified people will probably help more.
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Offline Nerk

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2008, 09:46:38 AM »
Thanks for the reply. Good points there, and i agree with most of it, but i like to think that close range ex crows is scarier than you make it out to be. It forces most characters to duck unless they want to take chip damage, negates enemy jump-outs, makes jump-ins 100% safe, amplifies the threat of them being thrown, and generally psyches the opponent out, making him more inclined to stuff up.

My problems come from not knowing how to link together successful summon strings. You pointed out that if done right, a summon-based corner pressure string can cause real trouble for an opponent, leaving few escape options. At this point, I'm not good enough at it, and that's where i need advice. My opponent escapes me a lot easier than I'd like him to -.-

If my opponent falls into a dear trap, i can normally hit him with something, providing he doesn't guess perfectly. But dear traps end when the dear goes home, and then the round basically resets back to zoning after my block string ends. From what I've seen of other players, this shouldn't be the case, or rather i should at least remain on the offensive for a lot longer than i do.

I spose my real question is, what summons are best for creating those situations where the opponent will be hard pressed to to find an escape route out of my pressure? When should they be used, and what should i look out for when performing summon-based block strings? How do i cover all exits?

Offline GenericSuperhero

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2008, 11:46:10 AM »
Yeah, so your problem really comes down to you not knowing how to blockstring well.  I meant what I said when I talked about close range crow setup just ending up as a normal blockstring; it's true that you have one safe move window while the crows attack but that just allows you to execute a normal blockstring with less worry about getting poked (ex specials will still get you), but after that it's up to your basic skills.  Unlike some other characters, a nero player ideally shouldn't learn blockstrings but instead should learn how to create blockstrings on the spot.  Besides the normal factor of situation present for all characters, summons additionally change the position of the players, creating added variability, and nero's summons can theoretically be linked endlessly and infinitely.

Obviously I'll give some of my advice, but rather than asking for help you should really just sit down in practice mode and truly understand each summon; look at how they can be linked, how each will affect every situation, how an opponent will react to any setup that you may execute.  You really need to know exactly where all your shit is and what it is going to do at every moment so you can take the most advantageous timing and know when you are in danger.  The opponent will have to focus on his own course of action as well and so will not be able to focus on the details of your summons along with your potential actions as much as you will.  To really understand the character to his core you should sit and see how every move interacts with every other move and every move after that.  That's how the people who came up with Nero's most effective strategies found them, and they are the best players.  If you don't go through the same process yourself, you miss the experience and character-player connection building that those players went through and you will be weaker for it.

As for basic setup advice, i'll start with the close range ex crow.  You asked specifically for summon setups, so i'll ignore the enemy's initial potential for aggression.  The following setup advice begins after you have stuffed the enemy (having chosen not to throw) with a 2b.
The most common follow is to cancel out of 2b with a B crow.  Having done so, you have jump in options.  A large variety of aerial maneuvers, high lows, and tick/land throws are present, and I won't go into them.  If you land next to the enemy with one jump (one stuffing aerial attack during the jump) you should have a free moment while the B crow hits the opponent.  In this window, we will assume you choose to go on with the summon setup.  You can use any kind of snake and use essentially snake oki tactics.  Or, you could use a b snake and continue summoning.  If the opponent doesn't poke out and you haven't decided to meaty, you have time to summon again while he gets hit by the snake.  Here you can use some kind of deer and you will be in the aforementioned situation.  If you choose to, you could continue summon setup during the deer's lockdown by summoning something again.  There are so many ways to end up in this situation depending on where if at all you decided to meaty, what summons you chose, etc.  In terms of effectiveness, deer setup is most dangerous to the opponent with snake/excrow setup about tied behind.  B crow is comparable to a really weak ex crow setup.

That setup is just a sort of example of the kind of thinking process you should try to adapt.  Starting with the B crow from faraway, you can use any kind of jumpin or different summons in any kind of combination.  If you aren't sure how to continue pressure at some point, you can reset yourself pretty safely to a highly advantageous position by using ex crows at the end of 2b in your blockstring (after, for example, jumpin-5b-2b).  The basics of summon setups is to lock down the opponent with either mindgame or a real threat (another summon) so you can use more summons to put yourself eventually into an ideal situation.  At any given time you can meaty into a normal blockstring, and with a proper read you can start up a summon setup again.  Always watch the opponent's meter when considering using a summon because arc drives and ex specials can get you.  Keep in mind that it's more likely that the opponent will try to poke out than let you finish a whole setup if he is a player who likes to take risks or is just not careful.

Sorry if this still isn't exactly what you want, but my advice is that the right thinking process is what you should strive for rather than solid facts.  If you are thinking the right way then you won't have need to ask many questions.  If you want some inspiration, watch videos of japanese nero players such as SAT.  It would take like 5+ pages to specifically and pragmatically give directions on most of the possibilities and ways to build pressure, and I'm not qualified or energetic enough to do that.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 12:04:39 PM by GenericSuperhero »
<Dipstick> bell would have a significant advantage in length and size
<Dipstick> but Sp00ky has a lot more experience

Offline Fui

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2008, 12:37:27 AM »
I'll just point out situational pressure options and techniques for Nero...take from it what you will...

Okizeme/Blockstrings:
5b meaty. Good for wakeup mashy people. Follow up with 2b 2c jb jc jc jc airthrow. If blocked, follow up w/ blockstring (2b B snake, 2c B snake, 5a whiff, 214a, etc.)
5b(1) 2c --> 4c jc jb jc (if it connects) or 214b/421a/5a if it's blocked. Blockstun from 2c is sufficient to safely release b snake in most situations.
B snake. Either walk up and grab, block/bait poke for CH/knockup, or release B deer during blockstun.
5b(1) 214b throw - gimmicky
Ex Crows: You know how to use these. If you have a ton of meter (MAX/Blood) you can Ex crows > 2b > Ex Crows > Ex Deer/Heat/Arc Drive

Situational stuff/tricks:
A snake > walk up throw. Jump if you smell a poke/heat/reversal grab and activate A snake to punish.
Unblockable AD setup: B snake > Ex Crows > AD. B snake needs to hit to generate blockstun for it to chain into blockstun setup. Matter of timing/intimidation.
Fullscreen combo: B snake > A crow knockup. This combos into a fullscreen knockup if timed correctly and A crow hits. Follow up w/ SJ jC aircombo.
Snake glitch: 214a/b > 214a/b while first snake is dropping out of coat. Hold A after second if A snakes are released.

Neutral Heat/Deer setups:
(B snake) Ex crows > Heat/Ex Deer
Heat > Ex crows > Ex Deer - Health is recovered during Ex Crows summon animation, use last bit of meter to summon Ex Deer.

Reversals:
Shitty 63214C (7f) reversal, obvious. Relies entirely on startup invincibility and assumption that opponent is poking with a meaty.
Antiair: 5d 5a 2c aircombo <-- essential antiair reversal for Nero.
2c CH. Most people will pick up on this if you spam it and will jump-in shield. This is bad news for Nero because recovery on 2c is so bad a neutral shield will still leave you at a disadvantage. Follow up CH with 2c aircombo.
5a. Very situational. If CH'd, 2c into aircombo. However, if you want to use 5a antiair you will need to immediately follow up with 2c for the knockup, whether or not it's going to be CH'd or hits normally.

Corner grab combo:
Throw(corner) 5b 2c jb jc jc airthrow (invalid)
Timing is very strict (1-2f?), unsafe on whiff if opponent ground techs. Good damage. Assumption that opponent will not airtech.

Winning back pressure:
Know his normals. jC at max range is best, because opponents don't suspect to get hit at its max distance and opponent's lack of ability to counter at its max range.  jA is very good at mid-close range due to its low hitbox, large amount of active frames, and fast speed. jB is good to follow up on an already-blocked attack, or to hit at its max distance. It's very slow for its properties, and should not be used in general except on jump-ins. If you are falling back on your blockstrings, try jumping forward with jA and preparing to combo into jC. If they are still crouching while you throw out jA, fall with jB to go on the offensive. Your main concern using ja is CH moves, like mecha's jetpacks, aoko's 236a, and Ciel's random ex halo from nowhere. Nero's quickest approach is his IAD, but you are vulnerable during the beginning of the airdash. IAD jB is pretty effective for closing in.

Be able to connect jB into 5b. This is crucial. 5B has a knockup property against crouching opponents so you can combo jB 5b 2c aircombo. Useful because Nero's jB is 2-hit it's not as easily blocked. If opponent is somehow hit while standing, 5b can be combo'd with 4c knockup.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 11:05:41 AM by Fui »

Offline Deafdefiler

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 01:09:06 PM »
...Wow. This is amazing! Thanks!

If I knew how to +rep, I'd do it for everyone in this topic.

Offline Hades Hatred Edge

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 06:12:25 AM »
*not really about his pressure but dealing with pressure*

I'm a new Nero player and I have trouble dealing with throws in the corner/in general. Usually they'll just run up and grab me. I'll ty 2A but it doesn't work. If there's a gap I try j.A but I have no idea how safe/reliable that is.

Another thing is if people are jumping above Nero trying ot mix him up, what are his options? Just hope that you block correctly?
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Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 08:05:28 AM »
*not really about his pressure but dealing with pressure*

I'm a new Nero player and I have trouble dealing with throws in the corner/in general. Usually they'll just run up and grab me. I'll ty 2A but it doesn't work. If there's a gap I try j.A but I have no idea how safe/reliable that is.

Another thing is if people are jumping above Nero trying ot mix him up, what are his options? Just hope that you block correctly?

Your 2a requires 8 frames to come out. You'd be better off using 5a or 5b to stuff tick throw attempts. Of course, a better option would probably be to jump out, given how much safer that is.

As for people floating above you, I don't about Nero, but there's something that works for almost every character. Either block or airthrow. I guess 2c could work, but that's quite risky. And is very punishable on shield or whiff.
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Offline Van_Artic

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 09:27:43 AM »
try 421A against jumping lamers, you will probably come out in a counter and then combo
5B 2B (or reversed) 214B is good for pressures, sometimes the opponent will jump to escape, then you could choose 2C or 421A again
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Offline heir

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2009, 10:04:56 AM »
try 421A against jumping lamers, you will probably come out in a counter and then combo
5B 2B (or reversed) 214B is good for pressures, sometimes the opponent will jump to escape, then you could choose 2C or 421A again
No, just... no.
If you're in the corner, block until you can jump out, or if your opponent gets predictable with iads, 2c him. A-deer will never come out if your opponent knows what he's doing. 5b is an option, but since it loses out to 50% of the air normals in this game, it's not such a good idea. 2c is slower, but it will get you a combo or a ch if you're fast enough. Dash is always an option, but don't do it more than once or twice per game since it's oh so punishable. 5da works too, as always.

Releasing a 214b after 5b/2b isn't a good idea, do it after 2c since that will provide enough blockstun (i.e. iad jb 5b2b(x1)2c 214b). 5b/2b into 214a/421a, however, is a decent frametrap. Remember that your 5b, 2c, 2[c], and 4c (1st hit) are air unblockable. And 5a, obviously. Making your opponent block in the air is your wet dream. Anyway, not much I can say about pressure that wasn't already said in the thread. And I'd risk fui calling me a scrub. Which he already does. But I use his colour anyway.

Offline Fui

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2009, 10:53:31 AM »
*not really about his pressure but dealing with pressure*

I'm a new Nero player and I have trouble dealing with throws in the corner/in general. Usually they'll just run up and grab me. I'll ty 2A but it doesn't work. If there's a gap I try j.A but I have no idea how safe/reliable that is.

Another thing is if people are jumping above Nero trying ot mix him up, what are his options? Just hope that you block correctly?

Uh when you're in the corner things are not good. His normals aren't really meant to deal with close pressure. Here are your options:
1. Block and wait for a gap to jump out. This is arguably the best option, especially against certain characters. You can do a defensive jumpout with jA or just try to jump airdash out.
2. Forward dash out. Works only with meaties that have a lot of recovery time on whiff. His teleport is highly punishable, and against a lot of characters you will find yourself punished on most whiffed attacks.
3. 2B. This has an early clash frame, despite the fact that it takes a while to come out. May clash the poke during the opponents blockstring and deal a hit into aircombo. Loses to fast pokes and IAD.
4. 5B. This is "fast" but the first hit is somewhat high, so it loses completely to low pokes like Warc/Arc 2B, Nanaya 2B/C, etc. Beats IAD, loses to low pokes.
5. 2C. This is a psychic anti-air reversal. You need to completely predict that the opponent is going to jump and attack. It still loses to certain IADs since it takes so long to come out. You'll most likely end up with a comboable CH, but this really shouldn't be used. It has one clash frame, but takes forever to come out and STILL loses to certain attacks since it clashes once and then completely whiffs until the ridiculously long cooldown ends.
6. Dodge/shield. What can I say, this is pure yomi. Dodge beats out meaties with a lot of recovery but loses to 2aaaa/throw, shield is a 50/50 gamble if you completely guess (assuming you time it correctly). If you land it, punish them.
7. 2A. Nero's 2a kinda sucks because of its slower-than-normal-2a speed, and not easily comboable at a certain distance. You won't find this working too often, especially if you're a masher. It can give some pushback though at a certain distance (where their 2a whiffs), giving you the advantage to get out of the corner.
8. Reversal (63214C). Uhh, pretty bad idea but still an option. Punishes/wallslams meaties, grants full invincibility on startup but it takes so damn long to come out and is 100% punishable on block. Bad idea except on wakeup, in which it's still kind of a bad idea.
9. Shield Bunker(214D)/Bara(63214C~D). Nero's bunker kinda sucks. Doesn't wallslam, instead it grants a techable knockup (can't OTG bunkers either, don't try). His bara can be used if you're good at punishing moves with a lot of hitstop.

Ultimately, learn to block and jump out. Eating a throw or two most likely won't hurt you too much. Be patient and watch your opponent for gaps. Also, against characters that reset blockstrings with a lot of reverse beats (ie Nanaya), their damage is highly prorated, so the longer you duke it out the lower their damage will be (up to 3 consecutive RBs).

Edit: Changed 5C to 2C (typo). Nero 5C as an option hahaha funny.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 09:21:54 AM by Fui »

Offline Arlieth Tralare

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 12:01:27 PM »
Option 1: Shield.
Option 2: Dodge.
Option 3: Dodge, then Shield.
Option 4: Refer back to Option 1.
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Offline Ultima66

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2009, 12:12:57 PM »
Option 1: Shield.
Option 2: Dodge.
Option 3: Dodge, then Shield.
Option 4: Refer back to Option 1.
Arlieth only needs Option 1.

Offline Van_Artic

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 12:42:02 AM »
just remembered, after a corner throw, an average Nero OTG:

2A 2A 2C 2B 4C

does it work well? tried by myself and, unless the opponent doesn't tech, it's a good one
anyone have better options? in the end Nero suck on OTGs too  :emo: :emo:
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Offline heir

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 04:36:08 AM »
Why would you ever otg with Nero? Just throw out a summon.

If you want to do something off a corner throw, do a 5b2c aircombo.

Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2009, 11:59:30 AM »
Why would you ever otg with Nero?

Extra damage for the kill.

Duh.
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[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
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[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Arlieth Tralare

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Re: Nero's pressure options
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2009, 04:52:31 PM »
Actually, for MBAA, especially Half and Full Moon Nero, OTGs might be interesting, because they either have different normal attacks all together or their specials/EXs give them new options. For example, Half Moon Nero can not only go into an OTG combo, but do an EX Crows afterwards which machine-guns outward and can tech-punish opponents. Also, Half Moon (i dunno about Full Moon), when low-shielding, automatically knocks down the opponent with a low shield-bunker (no chance to launch for a combo), so an OTG for guaranteed damage would be useful here.
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol