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Author Topic: The win of Sacchin.  (Read 70582 times)

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Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #125 on: August 25, 2008, 06:40:25 PM »
Try it. I think you'll be in for quite the suprise.

Can't you just answer the question like a normal person?

 :slowpoke:
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline magz

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2008, 05:28:42 AM »
What incentive do people have not to shield Sacchin's 4-way?

I mean, doesn't that turn it into a 2-way?
If you like eating 2B 5B 22C, sure. I guess you could try shielding.
"Accent Core is perfection. It's like the concept of freedom captured into a videogame."

Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2008, 09:12:44 AM »
What incentive do people have not to shield Sacchin's 4-way?

I mean, doesn't that turn it into a 2-way?
If you like eating 2B 5B 22C, sure. I guess you could try shielding.

Neat.

:O

Also, I found something about the 4756 mixup. Depending on whether you do 7,8, or 9, you can alter the way the mixup works. 4956 is the fastest but I'm having a tough time getting used to it. I think I'm going to start using it.

 :V


Edit: 496 is the most hilarious crossup ever.
Now I just have to learn the infinite.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 05:03:18 PM by Abstract Nonsense »
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Twinniss

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2008, 08:28:18 PM »
why was this unstickied

we can still have info on MBAC, it's what the majority of americans still play. Just make a new thread on MBAA sacchin and sticky that as well
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[20:13] <@bellreisa> with practice mode you can turn 10% into 100%

http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=232643&p=8761841&viewfull=1#post8761841 "For Instance, Cammy's strong kick(crouch) is two frames, because it takes almost 2 seconds to do"

Offline Sprint

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #129 on: October 20, 2008, 04:10:12 AM »
If you like eating 2B 5B 22C, sure. I guess you could try shielding.
You'd eat it anyway due to blocking in the wrong direction. High shield is a perfectly valid option.
Low shield not so much; holding 3 covers against all low hits from behind, and ones from the front are easy enough to react to since they rely on gimmicks.
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Offline Xkun01

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #130 on: October 22, 2008, 08:32:08 AM »
Gimmicks have been turning matches around for a while now..
"I play ALL the Sacchins"

Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2008, 08:35:02 PM »
Gimmicks have been turning matches around for a while now..

None that matter really. However, the front low is great for the occasional surprise and offending your opponent's intelligence. Though it's gimmicky, I wouldn't say it's a total waste of an option. Front low is best if you suspect high shield or react to it if you're some kind of superman. It will make the opponent scared to try it.

 The only real way to de-gimmick front low is to mix in jC fake land Ex-Bite, jC fake land 623c for jumps, and I don't know what for backdash(IAD jC?). All in all it's kind of ridiculous and relies on you being quite good at reads.

   Anyways, as per the high mixups, I've finally finished my experiments with 496. They are a semi-success. The mixup itself is kind of gimmicky and the spacing is very finnicky. But if you implement it right it's pretty damn solid. Especially if you're not afraid to mixup the spacing on standard backdash jC. Say, adapting it for high airthrows. 4756 itself is kind of shitty and slow, and 496 off of high airthrows is almost the exact same speed as standard jC backdash making it great to mix in occasionally if you don't want to deal with 4756's shittiness. The best way by far to improve your 4way though is to alter the spacing on backdash jC with longer walkups and earlier backdashes or shorter walkups and later backdashes. The problem with 496 is that off of lower airthrows it can be extremely slow and easy to see. So unless you think your opponent is fucking terrified, you shouldn't risk it off a low one and stick with mid/high. What should be kept in mind is that at higher levels some people can block oki on reaction if you get stale, which is why you have to be tricky with spacing and options to put the fear of god into them. That fear is going to make them fuck up, and it's what you're really going to be depending on.


Why did I make this post? It's not going to help anyone, aside from Ultima maybe.  :emo:
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 10:07:57 PM by Boxbot »
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Ultima66

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2008, 10:25:03 PM »
Gimmicks have been turning matches around for a while now..

None that matter really. However, the front low is great for the occasional surprise and offending your opponent's intelligence. Though it's gimmicky, I wouldn't say it's a total waste of an option. Front low is best if you suspect high shield or react to it if you're some kind of superman. It will make the opponent scared to try it.

 The only real way to de-gimmick front low is to mix in jC fake land Ex-Bite, jC fake land 623c for jumps, and I don't know what for backdash(IAD jC?). All in all it's kind of ridiculous and relies on you being quite good at reads.

   Anyways, as per the high mixups, I've finally finished my experiments with 496. They are a semi-success. The mixup itself is kind of gimmicky and the spacing is very finnicky. But if you implement it right it's pretty damn solid. Especially if you're not afraid to mixup the spacing on standard backdash jC. Say, adapting it for high airthrows. 4756 itself is kind of shitty and slow, and 496 off of high airthrows is almost the exact same speed as standard jC backdash making it great to mix in occasionally if you don't want to deal with 4756's shittiness. The best way by far to improve your 4way though is to alter the spacing on backdash jC with longer walkups and earlier backdashes or shorter walkups and later backdashes. The problem with 496 is that off of lower airthrows it can be extremely slow and easy to see. So unless you think your opponent is fucking terrified, you shouldn't risk it off a low one and stick with mid/high. What should be kept in mind is that at higher levels some people can block oki on reaction if you get stale, which is why you have to be tricky with spacing and options to put the fear of god into them. That fear is going to make them fuck up, and it's what you're really going to be depending on.


Why did I make this post? It's not going to help anyone, aside from Ultima maybe.  :emo:
Lol only 4 Sacchin players and 2 of them don't need any help.

Offline Xkun01

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #133 on: October 25, 2008, 11:54:56 AM »
Make it 3.I have a much better understanding on this character these days.
"I play ALL the Sacchins"

Offline Sprint

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #134 on: October 25, 2008, 01:28:09 PM »
None that matter really. However, the front low is great for the occasional surprise and offending your opponent's intelligence. Though it's gimmicky, I wouldn't say it's a total waste of an option. Front low is best if you suspect high shield or react to it if you're some kind of superman. It will make the opponent scared to try it.
...except land behind 2B/C already covers that, and has a much more realistic chance of actually hitting them.

It's not really worth considering unless the opponent is in the corner, where it improves somewhat because:
1. You don't have the option of landing behind them.
2. Landing empty puts you at point blank range, where you'll eat the full brunt of any reversal attempt.
3. You can do IAD j.C instead of 2C after landing. Still in gimmick territory, but pretty damn confusing.

Another front-low option is to superjump from a spot where even you can't tell which side you're going to land on. It takes away your overheads, but it's still a 50-50 mixup so it isn't that bad.
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Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #135 on: October 25, 2008, 05:20:42 PM »
Another front-low option is to superjump from a spot where even you can't tell which side you're going to land on.


I must be netplaying too much then. Because I find j[C] fake land 2c midscreen will connect if I throw it out judiciously. And I have the exact opposite experience with high/low airthrow late/early sj mixup option. Damn thing is blocked almost 100% of the time. How you manage to confuse even yourself, I have no idea. So I may be doing it wrong.

 :mystery:
« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 05:23:24 PM by Boxbot »
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Ultima66

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #136 on: October 25, 2008, 06:05:41 PM »
Another front-low option is to superjump from a spot where even you can't tell which side you're going to land on.


I must be netplaying too much then. Because I find j[C] fake land 2c midscreen will connect if I throw it out judiciously. And I have the exact opposite experience with high/low airthrow late/early sj mixup option. Damn thing is blocked almost 100% of the time. How you manage to confuse even yourself, I have no idea. So I may be doing it wrong.

 :mystery:

I've superjumps from spots where I land j.C meaty as a crossup without doing anything. It'll just hit them on the way down and I'll land behind.

Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #137 on: October 25, 2008, 06:18:54 PM »
Another front-low option is to superjump from a spot where even you can't tell which side you're going to land on.


I must be netplaying too much then. Because I find j[C] fake land 2c midscreen will connect if I throw it out judiciously. And I have the exact opposite experience with high/low airthrow late/early sj mixup option. Damn thing is blocked almost 100% of the time. How you manage to confuse even yourself, I have no idea. So I may be doing it wrong.

 :mystery:

I've superjumps from spots where I land j.C meaty as a crossup without doing anything. It'll just hit them on the way down and I'll land behind.

Really? I've always wondered if that was possible but I could never get it to work.
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Sprint

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2008, 07:06:22 AM »
I must be netplaying too much then. Because I find j[C] fake land 2c midscreen will connect if I throw it out judiciously. And I have the exact opposite experience with high/low airthrow late/early sj mixup option. Damn thing is blocked almost 100% of the time. How you manage to confuse even yourself, I have no idea. So I may be doing it wrong.

It's not that it doesn't work. It's that it sucks compared to the other options available.

Which would you rather be forced to block at zero health; Kohaku j.C or Aoko 6[A]?
The difference here is about the same.

As for the front/back 2C mixup; it should generally only be used after a particularly high airthrow, where you're likely to land too far away for standard oki to work properly.
  • vs Shikis, Satsuki, Warc, Necos (and to some extent; Arc, Hisuis):
    Aim to land right on top of them. Precise timing doesn't matter, just get the positioning right. Throw in a jumpcancel and/or airdash too if necessary.
    You can't bump into these characters while they're in the process of standing up, which means no matter how early or late arrive, you're always going to land where you aim unless you do it so stupidly late that they've already recovered by the time you get there.
    This method works fine on other characters too, but you have to get there earlier so you land before their collision box rises high enough to interfere, otherwise you'll end up in front of them every time.
  • vs anyone else:
    Aim to land barely behind them. If you go early you'll land behind them as usual, but if done late you'll bump into them and land in front. The trick is to time it right on the border between the two, the exact timing of which varies between characters.

I've superjumps from spots where I land j.C meaty as a crossup without doing anything. It'll just hit them on the way down and I'll land behind.

Unfortunately it's not really effective by itself. The opponent can block it by just holding 4 as normal. It's the attack that comes afterwards that's hard to deal with since it could come from either side depending on exactly where the j.C connected. Try to stagger the followup if they blocked it.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 07:57:28 AM by Sprint »
Blah.

Offline sumbody

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #139 on: October 26, 2008, 09:14:47 AM »
I read through the few pages and can't seem to find strats on defending the 4-way. Mostly were tips on executing the 4-way. Sorry if this question has been repeated.

Honestly speaking, what are the best options to defending a 4-way. Blocking? I tend to block the wrong direction. I see the Japs prefer back dashing but its easy to end up dashing forward instead due to wrong directions. Dodge doesn't seem so effective as well.

Any suggestions?

Offline Ultima66

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #140 on: October 26, 2008, 01:34:23 PM »
I read through the few pages and can't seem to find strats on defending the 4-way. Mostly were tips on executing the 4-way. Sorry if this question has been repeated.

Honestly speaking, what are the best options to defending a 4-way. Blocking? I tend to block the wrong direction. I see the Japs prefer back dashing but its easy to end up dashing forward instead due to wrong directions. Dodge doesn't seem so effective as well.

Any suggestions?
Good reaction time. That's it.

The whole point is for it to have a very small amount of time to react to. If it wasn't like that, Sacchin would be a much more terrible character (although she is already really lacking in a lot of areas so...).

Offline Tempered

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #141 on: October 26, 2008, 01:39:36 PM »
High block until you see her going another direction, thats about it.
During Loser's Finals at NECX:

<Crowd at Jiyuna about to Lose> Na na na naaaa, na na na naaaa, hey hey hey, Goodbyeeee~

Offline Sprint

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #142 on: November 01, 2008, 03:55:38 AM »
Something I'm kicking myself for not thinking of:

For okizeme against a character with a roll-dodge; tap 4/6Q in between j.C and the followup attack.
If j.C whiffs you get the throw. If j.C hits then the throw doesn't come out and you're free to combo off it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iWbmHpJvXRs#t=9m5s
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 03:58:10 AM by Sprint »
Blah.

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2008, 04:48:33 AM »
Something I'm kicking myself for not thinking of:

For okizeme against a character with a roll-dodge; tap 4/6Q in between j.C and the followup attack.
If j.C whiffs you get the throw. If j.C hits then the throw doesn't come out and you're free to combo off it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iWbmHpJvXRs#t=9m5s
stop finding more broken sacchin stuff ;_;

Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #144 on: November 01, 2008, 12:12:09 PM »
Something I'm kicking myself for not thinking of:

For okizeme against a character with a roll-dodge; tap 4/6Q in between j.C and the followup attack.
If j.C whiffs you get the throw. If j.C hits then the throw doesn't come out and you're free to combo off it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iWbmHpJvXRs#t=9m5s

By the gods it is brilliant.

[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Tempered

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #145 on: November 01, 2008, 01:13:30 PM »
too bad she doesnt get much from throwing :(
During Loser's Finals at NECX:

<Crowd at Jiyuna about to Lose> Na na na naaaa, na na na naaaa, hey hey hey, Goodbyeeee~

Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #146 on: November 01, 2008, 03:50:41 PM »
too bad she doesnt get much from throwing :(

Normally I just do backdash jC, and if I see a roll I throw out 5aaaaaaa I always fail to hitconfirm that though.

 :'(
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Xkun01

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #147 on: November 10, 2008, 11:06:15 AM »
Something I'm kicking myself for not thinking of:

For okizeme against a character with a roll-dodge; tap 4/6Q in between j.C and the followup attack.
If j.C whiffs you get the throw. If j.C hits then the throw doesn't come out and you're free to combo off it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iWbmHpJvXRs#t=9m5s
I had no idea what he was talking about,until I realized,I do this usually.But not for roll dodge characters.

Neat :toot:

Edit:If you want more for the throw, buffer the 632146C off the jC.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 11:12:09 AM by Xkun01 »
"I play ALL the Sacchins"

Offline Sprint

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #148 on: November 11, 2008, 07:14:57 AM »
It shouldn't be used against characters with normal dodges.

Time-wise; the recovery of a normal dodge overlaps with hitstun.
Dodge makes j.C whiff, but they'll eat the follow-up anyway unless you press it way too early. Throwing in this situation is a waste of a free combo.

It's good specifically for rolling dodges, since their movement and longer duration causes the j.C follow-up to completely whiff too. Inserting the throw input is insurance against this.
Blah.

Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #149 on: November 11, 2008, 03:24:38 PM »
I'm bored, let's pool our bite setups:

[blockstring], late 5c, 214a whiff, exbite
 2a2[c] (on block), walkup, exbite. The 2[c] increases their blockstun but your recovery stays the same. Then your walkup doesn't become enormous and you don't have to whiff cancel. Eew reverse beat.

{} = may or may not be needed

{2a}5b5a (blockstring), {walkup}, exbite

IAD jC (blocked or whiffed), {walkup}, exbite
IAD jC (blocked or whiffed), 2a (blocked or whiff), {walkup}, exbite
2a (blocked), exbite

Almost all of these depend on having trained your opponent to block and the fact that you can start pressure up again during walkup with a simple 2a, 5c, 2b, or 2c. 5B is risky due to start up vulnerability. Don't get stale. Watch out for reversal heat and EX. Remember to make them pay for jump outs, sj airthrow, 623c, etc. This will keep them on the ground for your setups.

Also, for 5C anti-air clash, what do I do if the opponent uses an extra jump to jump out of the clash, or if I suspect they will do so? 214a? 5a? 22b?
 
Edit: Choco says shield bunker or instant airthrow. I did some testing, I think 5B is pretty good too.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 06:00:58 PM by Boxbot »
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you