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Author Topic: The win of Sacchin.  (Read 70597 times)

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Offline Choco

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The win of Sacchin.
« on: March 01, 2007, 06:54:42 AM »
A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION IS OUT OF DATE IN MY OPINION. KEEP THIS IN MIND WHILE READING THE THREAD. I'LL UPDATE IT ENTIRELY ONE OF THESE DAYS. :: 06-08-2008

Why the hell would anyone play Satsuki? I mean, come on. We all know her ground dash sucks. She can only do one attack in the air and can't double jump or airdash afterwards. She only has a moderate amount of clash frames, and the only way to win with her is to use all your meter.

She's a BEAST!

Satsuki is a lovely beast. She has her limitations, but perfecting other aspects of your game will turn her into a very powerful character. Let's start off with some beastly BNB.

{xxx} = OPTIONAL MOVE(S) IN COMBO STRING.
#x/#x = Either/Or. One or the other. 5c OR 5b. Got it?


5b 623c after the first groundslam is character specific. Doesn't work against LEN, MIYAKO or CIEL. Replace 5b with 214a for LEN, 2c (2-hit) for MIYAKO and 5c for CIEL.

Average ground string: {2a{a}} -> 2c 5b{or 5c} 623b -> groundslam -> 5b 623c -> groundbounce -> 2c 5c {OPTIONAL: 214a} j.c 4/6A+D

Circuitless-version: {2a{a}} {5b} 2c 5c/5b {214a} j.c 4/6A+D.

This is the general best all around attack string for her. All 2c attacks should hit for two hits.

Deep j.C or j.B Circuit combo: 2b5b5c 214c -> wallslam to corner -> {2c [character specific]} 5c 214a JC to airthrow.

Against a full Shiki Tohno, this does near 5000 damage if you add in a j.C starter. The 2c after wallslam does NOT work very well on some characters. For safety, I recommend using the 2c sparingly unless you know you can hit people with it. If it comes out too late, Sacchin has to recover with no whiff cancel, letting the enemy tech and punish you with meaties into full combo. Also, using 2c in this situation might knock your foe too high, not allowing an airthrow after the 5c 214a. Thus, I recommend just using 5c 214a -> JC to Airthrow.

LONG-ASS DEMORALIZING WALL COMBO w/ OTG: IAD j.C {2a}5b2c5c 623b -> groundslam -> 5b2c5c 623c -> groundbounce -> 2c5c 623b -> groundslam -> 5b2b2c5c214a -> Jumpcancel to IAD forward or back.

If you land a j.C in the corner, this will do an excellent amount of damage, last for 22 hits, kill a lot of time, and end in a 214a jumpcancel that allows you to punish any teching option with a j.C/j.B that will reset the corner combo from the absolute beginning. No tech leaves you with okizeme to work with.

Sacchin's Bouncy Fun combo: j.[C] 5[C] j.[C] -> ground dash -> 5b 623b -> 5b 623c -> groundbounce -> 2c5c 214a JC 4/6A+D

This combo never gets old. NEVER. And the first hit pretty much guarantees a 40-50% damage combo. The big trouble is getting that first hit to... hit. It can be shielded and punished very easily, so if you decide to use them, make its use very unexpected and inconspicuous.


-----------------

Air combos? Lulz. No air combos. Grab from the ground using 623a/c, (super)jump into airthrow, or j.A/j.B air counterhit.

Wakeup Defense

Satsuki doesn't really have the invulnerable wakeup attacks that characters like Sion, Nanaya, etc. have. This leaves her with two options, not including block, 2a spam and wakeup throw.

Backdash. A few frames before wakeup, queue up the first 4, and around the full wakeup frame itself press 4 again for the backdash. There's a catch here. Keep holding 4 and you'll backdash on the wakeup frame. The invincibility frames here can save you if you're in midfield, and should only be uses sparingly against people who don't mash 2a in the corner.

22b/c. Due to the early clash frames on this attack, it makes it a very decent wakeup option. Just don't use it so much that it becomes predictable. Great against jump-in wakeup options, bad against other attacks that also have early clash frames. To properly use this attack, you will need to queue it up. The best way to do this is about 12 frames before your wakeup, you queue up the 22 part. When you press b, it will have to be on the wakeup frame or a few frames after depending on your timing. To help your defense, you will need to press 4, 1, 6 or 3 (the appropriate block direction) just before doing the move so that if you screw up the frame timing of the 22b, there will be less of a change of being punched in the face. AFTER THE FIRST HIT OF 22B, YOU HAVE A FEW OPTIONS. 1) Let it complete and possible get a hit/knockdown on opponent, or get smacked in the face due to the opponent using their clash frames a little too well themselves. 2) Cancel first hit into 22c. If attacker is on the ground, this will wallslam them. Superjump and j.[C] to continue the combo. You can do another j.[C] after that, or IAD to airthrow. Corner loops will work in the corner. 3) (untested) Cancel first hit into 214c. Invincibility frames will save you and blast your opponent in the face for a wallslam which you can combo off of depending on where you are on the screen. Best if the opponent is on the ground.

Randomness

Want to punish someone who you know you can't reach for a combo? Do they whiff cancel out really far so you can't counterattack? Getting stuck on the recovery frames of a 1-hit 2c?

CANCEL IT! On a 1-hit 2c, jumpcancel into IAD and go for a j.B/j.C. Most people will be blocking low because it feels natural.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 04:18:38 PM by Choco »

Offline Hintalove

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2007, 05:43:18 PM »
Satsuki's Arc Drive is pretty beastly, if timed correctly. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure how punishable it is, seeing as she falls over at the end, but I'm thinking it's probably just a regular knockdown after the invincibilty. It's unblockable and does massive damage, even on the non-bloodheat version. It makes a pretty sweet reversal, especially if your opponent wasn't watching to see if you're in max :D

Satsuki's 214a is jump cancelable on block, so you can keep preassurig out of that at the end of of your block strings, you just don't want to use it religiously. 2c5a is pretty beastly in it self, especially followed by another one or iad jc. The core of satsuki mixup is based around her airthrow highlow games, ad getting your opponent scared enough to let you cross them up as much as you want with sj.

One last thing. There is no possible way to combo off a ch jc, because it throws them on the ground immediatly. Jb is your air to air weapon of choice because it's comboable, *and* has more priority.

ps: you should mention how to combo len, miyako, ciel, and kouma. I know that ticked me off when I played satsuki..
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Offline Magikarp9

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2007, 07:47:34 PM »
Some serious corrections would be required in this post actually...

OTG relaunch into grab for individual characters is actually rather...different. on each end of the scale is shiki tohno(where 2c5b5a works...) and Ren (where 214a works...)

the MASSIVE SACCHIN COMBO of doom doesn't actually start from j.[c]... that actually has a 50% prorate when starting off it.

The Ultimate SACCHIN COMBO OF DOOM is off a counterhit...j.b on a GROUNDED opponent. Chain into 5b2b 236c for a 3k combo starter with 0% prorate...

Her AA ch j.b is pretty scary too, leads to free ex grab.

and her best 100% meter combos are off 214c , not through 623c relaunch grabbing.
Hella hard though.

Offline Choco

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 07:00:28 AM »
More is coming! I work full time for most of the week and am usually too tired to come home and type up more stuff. Like right now. And to make things worse, I must go wash some clothes. /sigh

Offline Sp00ky

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 02:50:30 PM »
I don't know how Satsukis 214A works on ver.B Arcade but I do want to point out that on ver.B ps2 it's only jump cancellable on block once. After that you must score a hit of some sort or be hit to reset the jump cancel on block property. It doesnt usually effect anything but if you've ever wondered why it seems like sometimes the jump cancel just 'didn't work' this is probably your answer.

Offline Choco

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2007, 10:03:11 AM »
Magikarp, j.B counter hit combo would be nice, but it's not really bread and butter. j.[C] is, on hit, pretty much a 40% damage combo. 50%+ if you want to splurge meter. It's definitely not something to frown at.

I also fail to see how 214c can produce the most damaging Satsuki combos. Care to elaborate? Seems to me  that if it was practical, JP Sacchin players would have started using it long ago. Bunker canceling to 214a -> 214c is nice and all, but hardly something to get really excited about.

Offline Sp00ky

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2007, 12:23:58 PM »
Actually the J.B CH combo IS definately a Satsuki staple. the J.[C] combo is the opposite, landing that on good players does not happen often at all.

And he's also correct about 214C (and 22C for that matter) Doing more damage than 623C loop, which is why the japanese players are starting to use it.

The tactics Karp is mentioning are the latest and greatest newest Satsuki ideas and not in many vids yet. Dismissing them is a mistake, learning them now can bring you up to speed before even alot of JP satsuki players.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 12:29:29 PM by Sp00ky »

Offline Choco

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2007, 05:08:58 AM »
Update on new BNB string explanation. Pretty good shit!

Offline Light

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 01:19:06 AM »
I tried during the new 214A combo with very little success. Anything special to note about the timing of the jump cancel for 214A? You have wait a bit after the hit no?
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Offline Choco

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2007, 01:56:24 AM »
If you mean the 2c 5b 214a jc 4/6A+B combo... make sure you're queuing into the 214a at the right time. Hit the 'a' input a few frames before the execution. Airthrow should be done EARLY. Meaning you jump cancel, and within a few frames of flight when you're actually allowed to attack or throw, do the throw. If you're still having trouble, I'll make a 214a video when I get home and post it on YouTube/here.

*psst* j.b or j.c 2b5b5c214c ->wallslam->5c214a 8j.c -> airthrow = awesome. TRY IT.

Offline Light

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 02:18:45 PM »
Oh I see. I didn't figure that you were suppose to jump cancel into airthrow that fast. I'll keep that in mind the next time I play her. Thanks.
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Offline Choco

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 05:31:53 PM »
SACCHIN 214a TO AIRTHROW EXAMPLE VIDEO

Just contains three examples of comboing into an airthrow.

1. 5b no meter example
2. 5c no meter example (what, 50+ damage? nothx)
3. New 100% BNB wallslam into airthrow (safe)

Offline Choco

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2007, 02:38:41 AM »
Updated post with full notation instead of that "string" BS, added a new combo string, took out a lot of :blah: - I'll try to add some replays of certain combos when we get verB2.

Offline motoh

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 08:13:26 AM »
Is Bloodsucking Impulse (63214C) still a move?  I can't get it to trigger.

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Offline Lolly

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 03:23:01 PM »
Is Bloodsucking Impulse (63214C) still a move?  I can't get it to trigger.

~M

yup, its still in the game

632146C is the motion, might explain why you're having trouble :p
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 03:25:33 PM by Lolly »

Offline Tropsy

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 05:25:30 PM »
In fact, I believe just 6216C works. At least I'm sure 63216C does work, and it used to be 6216C in FT times, I haven't investigated carefully since ver.B2 came out.

Offline motoh

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 06:07:25 PM »
Cool, thanks much to both of you!

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Offline SacchinWantPie

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2007, 06:38:29 PM »
In this string that Choko posted "Average ground string: {2a{a}} -> 2c 5b{or 5c} 623b -> groundslam -> 5b 623c -> groundbounce -> 2c 5c {OPTIONAL: 214a} j.c 4/6A+D" I usually replace the 623b -> groundslam -> 5b 623c with 623b -> groundslam -> 5b 2c 623c.  Im wondering if the way i do it is ok. Also, I wonder why I usually see it with just the 5b.

Thanks.



Offline Zaido

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2007, 06:50:50 PM »
i am not a sacchin player, but the thing you list, do youmean doing the first 623C where the 623B is at? in that case ur burning 200 percent meter, instead of just 100 percent ?... anyways... uh i dunno i htink sometimes you would just go for 1 623C cause of prorate?
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Offline magz

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2007, 07:18:42 PM »
More than one 623C in a Satsuki combo without the chance of killing your opponent from doing so or being in max mode is a gigantic waste of meter.
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Offline Lolly

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2007, 08:20:11 PM »
he's not talking about adding a second ex cancel to his combo..he's wondering about the OTG juggle. The reason you see 5b in the 'average ground string' is cause it'll work for most characthers in most situations. It'll also depend on your distance from the corner. Correct me if i'm wrong but the {5b 2c(dunno if you mean one or two hits?) 623c} you listed won't work on most of the cast mid-screen. Tho you can do a {2c(2hit) 5b 623} OTG juggle when you got someone in the corner. It's a little extra damage and meter but does add a rebeat..and I think it works on most of the cast.

Best advice I can give if you're looking for otg juggle specifics is watch more japanese vids/head into practice mode and start taking notes :p

Offline magz

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2007, 08:31:57 PM »
5B 2C (2 hits) 623C will work on Warakia, Shiki Tohno, Satsuki, and Kouma mid-screen.

5B 2C (2 hits) 623C will work in the corner against most everyone save for Nanaya.

Some other stuff that should be in this thread...

One variation of the corner combo after 623B that I've grown fond of that seems to work on most characters (some with character-specific tweaks here and there) goes likes this:

stuff 623B 5B 2B 2C (1 or 2 hits - char dependent) 5C 214A 623C

The meter-building corner combo you don't see much these days goes as follows:

stuff 2C (2nd hit knock-down) j.[C] 5a OR 2a x4 or x5 (character specific) 5B 2B 5C 2C (1 or 2 hits - char dependent) 214A (623C) - This 623C is character-specific and I can only remember it working on Warakia and Ciel. Note that you will lose jump-cancel capability early during this combo due to 2C being jump canceled. You can get around this by starting the combo off from a 2A OTG. Consider using the super-jump crossover variation outlined below should you use 623C at the end and have used up your jump-cancel early in the combo.

Example Video

A blockstring ending with 214B can net you a 623C or a j.Air Throw. It acts as an overhead so, if your opponent doesn't have Satsuki matchup experience, he will most likely fall for it a couple of times so long as you don't use it that often. On block, at the correct distance, you should be safe. In fact, people have a tendency to attack after blocking 214B which can allow you to take advantage of the situation. Throwing in a shield after 214B is blocked can net you another free combo.

Satsuki's crossup from 623C 2C (2 hits) has multiple options. You start out by jump canceling the second hit of the 2C into a forward jump. Immediately cancel the forward jump into a jump straight up and then hold forward. Satsuki will slowly fall to the ground now and if her path of movement is uninterrupted you should land directly behind your opponent.

Some of her options are as follows:

  • AD back j.C into combo. Crossup.
  • Land 2C into combo. Fake crossup.
  • AD back j.[C] (hold down charge so that it does not execute) land 2C into combo. Beats high shield. Beats heat if you anticipate it and space properly. 2C clashes through heat.
  • AD back j.[C] (hold down charge so that it does not execute) land 5B 2C into combo. Beats low shield (unlikely to be used >_>). eats heat if you anticipate and space properly. 5B clashes through heat.

Satsuki also has a crossup from her air throw so long as her opponent does not end up in the corner. From a situation like j.C 5B 2B 2C 623B 5B 623C 2C (2 hits) 5C 214A Air Throw you can superjump toward your opponent and create the same kind of situation above if you have your spacing and timing down.
If you find yourself not being able to just barely go over your opponent's head as he/she is getting up from the air throw after you superjump you need to do your air throw lower to the ground.

The standard options for this kind of a crossup are the same as the above if you have your spacing and timing down properly.

The trick to sealing this deal is to walk forward just a tiny bit or even dash and walk back a bit if the situation calls for it after connecting with the air throw. This can help with your spacing if you know for a fact that superjumping is going to land you in the wrong spot (i.e: in front of your opponent).

However, this is only one way of setting it up and requires you to air-backdash early in order to avoid hitting your opponent if they choose to rise in the standing state. Consider it the easy version of the more high-end setup.
The real trick in timing is to get it so that your air-backdash j.C hits almost perfectly meaty as your opponent gets up. In order to execute this, you need to superjump almost instantly after you hit the ground with little to no movement forward after landing. This will barely ignore the hitbox of your opponent when you air-backdash which creates one of the hardest Satsuki mixups for anyone to block. need to do more research on this part

If you find yourself superjumping toward your opponent but the distance is too far to cross him/her up you can do a j.[C] mixup.

The j.[C] mixup revolves around your opponent fearing being hit by a j.[C] due to it's high-damage and combo followup which leads to even more damage.
If your opponent blocks your j.[C] you are perfectly safe and it also eats a big chunk of his/her red bar. One path they can take to countering it involves shielding.
Both blocking and shielding of j.[C] cause your opponent to be susceptible to the j.[C] mixup.
The j.[C] mixup can be used in super jumps, normal jumps, and IADs toward your opponent.

Video Example

The central point of this mixup is the fact that j.[C] can be purposefully whiffed into the ground. By timing your charge so that j.[C] never finishes charging you can cause your opponent to block or shield while you land right in front of them with little to no lag at all to do whatever you want. You can throw, arc drive (risky!), 2C, 5B, EX Bite, etc.
 
I haven't fully researched these options against all characters so YMMV.

Update 1/29/08:

Don't be afraid to end your blockstrings with 236A if you feel that you've pressed a lot and your opponent is being pushed too far away. Everyone and their dog can predict the old 214A IAD j.C blockstring ender. This will at least end without you eating a bara or a random poke.

An interesting setup for mixup with Satsuki's air throw involves the usual superjump as soon as you land from throwing your opponent canceled at some point in time by a double jump up or toward which is then canceled almost immediately into an air-dash forward. Where does this put you? Somewhere above your opponent maybe, perhaps behind, or even in front. Can be used with j.[C] and j.C mixup variations into low 2C, grab, bite, etc. Be creative.

Using 2[C] as apart of your blockstrings can be beneficial in terms of mixup because a) some opponents don't expect it and get hit by it b) some opponents still block it but don't know that there's a 3rd hit and get hit by that c) seems to provide more frame advantage (need to check this). Furthermore, 2[C] has some weird clash properties that have been seen beating aerial and ground attacks of all kinds. YMMV

Having trouble connecting your 2C (2 hits) after 623C? Some alternatives include 2C (1 hit) 5C, 5B, and 5C into air throw setups. However, you can't bypass this if you're going for a 2C (2 hit) jump cancel mixup. What you can do if you want to go for air-backdash mixup after 623C on a char you can't land 2C (2 hits) on consistently is super jump over them right after 623C and continue as though you jump canceled the 2C (2 hits). Jump straight up, hold back while falling down right next to your opponent (you'll actually be moving forward because Satsuki will turn around) and then either land or air-backdash. Video Example Don't ever risk a guaranteed match/round because you don't know the precise timing to 2C (2 hits) after 623C. Save learning that for practice mode.

Another mixup you can use if you've trained your opponent to expect SJ forward airdash back j.C is to hold down that j.C to make it cancel into the ground by charging and immediately throwing out a 2C. This needs to be accomplished at extremely low heights and your opponent must be expecting an overhead attack by blocking or shielding high. Of course, there are other ways to get out of this like backdash, but that applies most all mixups anyways. This mixup in particular works well in the corner where you can combo off a j.C into a 2C (1 hit) 214C or just go for the j.C whiff into 2C (1 hit) 214C.

22A is a fairly reliable anti-air. However, you need good timing and spacing/positioning in order to use it properly. It will beat out a lot of jump-in's with a counter-hit to boot most of the time. From there you can go into 5B 623B whatever or at least 5B 623C. Make sure to note that it is air-blockable. This move has a very, very small hitbox and should be used with care.

More stuff later maybe...
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 04:51:38 AM by magz »
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Offline Lolly

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2007, 06:26:38 AM »
I just +heated my first someone!  :o nice post

Satsuki also has a crossup from her air throw so long as her opponent does not end up in the corner. From a situation like j.C 5B 2B 2C 623B 5B 623C 2C (2 hits) 5C 214A Air Throw you can superjump toward your opponent and create the same kind of situation above if you have your spacing and timing down.
If you find yourself not being able to just barely go over your opponent's head as he/she is getting up from the air throw after you superjump you need to do your air throw lower to the ground.

The standard options for this kind of a crossup are the same as the above if you have your spacing and timing down properly.

If you find yourself superjumping toward your opponent but the distance is too far to cross him/her up you can do a j.[C] mixup.

I've often wondered about this ..as i've been seeing in a lot of recent match vids, players omitting the 214a -> airthrow from the standard BNB and simply jump canceling into air dash airthrow instead.I couldn't really see an advantage in this other than the slightly faster time you landing and positioning yourself for the crossup followup. Does'nt really seem worth the waste of damage and meter tho. Maybe they're just oldschool players too used to the old 214a mechanics

Offline Choco

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2008, 06:46:16 AM »
Actually, 2c5c IAD airthrow string is the old skool way of doing things. It's true that it lets you land quicker, thus set up your superjump crossover/air backdash mixup differently (makes the air backdash easier). However, I never use this. The execution requirements are silly, there's less damage, and the air backdash mixup is more effective if you superjump right on your opponent's waking up head so it looks like you'll air backdash into them, but you get to land a j.C in their front side instead. In other words, I believe the old school combo is too easy to predict.

Offline noradseven

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Re: The win of Sacchin.
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2008, 09:13:02 PM »
What do you think about this start up with satsuki 2A(2A),5B,5C,2C,214C,2C,5C,623B...we all know the rest.

ONLY WORKS WHEN ENEMY IN CORNER.