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Author Topic: Is Melty both accessible and deep?  (Read 20059 times)

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Offline FireBearHero

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2011, 01:04:13 AM »
What you will need to play various characters at a high level:  :laffo:

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« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 01:05:45 AM by Thana »

Offline Cristu

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2011, 02:20:31 AM »
the learning curve is low
But the curve goes really deep... That's why I like to say in MB you can have 1000 players, and all of them be in a totally different level... Comparing to RPGs, in MB you start in level 1, but you can get 25 levels a day and the limit level is 10000... You take much more time to master, but you learn and improve much faster, because MB is intuitive and simple... like stepmania or trackmania. So, if you are going to play competitively, sometimes you are "too far", even in low level. But nothing pratice mode wont solve.
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2011, 12:52:27 AM »
That's saying the game isn't accessible since you'll need to play for 40 days before you can compete on an even level with the current best.  Using your rpg analogy change the level cap to 100 and the last 10 levels take a day each, that is you can get close to the top fast but that last stretch is a pain in the ass.

Offline Inso

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2011, 10:25:35 AM »
That's saying the game isn't accessible since you'll need to play for 40 days before you can compete on an even level with the current best.  Using your rpg analogy change the level cap to 100 and the last 10 levels take a day each, that is you can get close to the top fast but that last stretch is a pain in the ass.
Acessibility is not how fast you can play like a pro, it's about how fast you can understand the game mechanics and play it like it's supposed to be played, how easily it sinks into your brain. In that regard, I don't think Melty is really acessible because there is a lot to take in, but since you don't need to know much to do some combos and move around on the screen it's kind of ok in that aspect, the case is that it is just more acessible than the majority of FGs (which doesnt say much, really). Shields, bunker, max, heats, last arc, reverse beat, dodge, those can be learned by playing the game further, and that is how it should be.

That being said, going from "oh, you can do this" to "this is the BEST way of doing it" takes time, and it depends on the person in question and who you have to play with, but I'd say that to compete on even level with the current best you'll need a lot more than 40 days. So yeah, it is deep.
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2011, 11:09:49 AM »
That's saying the game isn't accessible since you'll need to play for 40 days before you can compete on an even level with the current best.  Using your rpg analogy change the level cap to 100 and the last 10 levels take a day each, that is you can get close to the top fast but that last stretch is a pain in the ass.

Are you trolling?  A game is ridiculously shallow if someone can pick up the game and compete with the current best in less than 40 days.  Even 40 days is way too little time for someone to be able to pick up a game and become the best. 
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Offline Cristu

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2011, 11:37:11 AM »
That's saying the game isn't accessible since you'll need to play for 40 days before you can compete on an even level with the current best.  Using your rpg analogy change the level cap to 100 and the last 10 levels take a day each, that is you can get close to the top fast but that last stretch is a pain in the ass.

Yup. I think Melty Blood is not acessible competitively. Actually I think MB is less acessible then any other fighting game competitively. But surely not because combo execution. Most likely timing, neutral game, strings, hitconfirm, etc. But I also think MB is the most acessible game to play/understand.

Acessibility is not how fast you can play like a pro, it's about how fast you can understand the game mechanics and play it like it's supposed to be played, how easily it sinks into your brain.

Inso, you are right about the acessibility concept, but it's about acessibility to compete. Melty Blood is not more acessible then other fighting games in that. You take much longer to start winning in Melty then in other games usually.

Melty Blood is very simple to understand, and easy to feel you're good, because you always think you've improved a lot, but there is so much space to be filled with skill and planning... And truth is you usually didn't improve 10% of what you should. The bad thing is when you think that you're getting good, you start to worry less about improving... But you actually could keep improving at the same pace for years. Melty Blood in an extreme game... Look how japanese players can play it... And I don't think it's even close to the limit of the game. A good exemple of this is Hikonyan... That guy took the game to a different level from night to day. I'm sure so much more can be done. We are too far from knowing what this game really is imho...
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 12:44:43 PM by Cristu »
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Offline Inso

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2011, 02:01:22 PM »
Inso, you are right about the acessibility concept, but it's about acessibility to compete. Melty Blood is not more acessible then other fighting games in that. You take much longer to start winning in Melty then in other games usually.
Hmm.... yeah, me trippin'. Ignore what I just said, I misinterpreted the subject and even made Tonberry sink with me.

I guess the question is, could someone doing just basic ass combos like 2abc (insert launcher here) j.BC j.BC throw win games competively or do you NEED the 1-frame link execution and high damage combos to be a champ in MB?

Imagine that you are a veteran MB player and you play only one character, no subs. Then, you need to play with another character you know little about, but you manage to find a BnB and what's good on pressure and neutral during the match based solely on your knowledge of the game. I think you could win.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 02:06:04 PM by Inso »
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Offline zeech

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2011, 06:37:15 AM »
I consider "accessibility" and "depth" to be seperate concepts.

If you could pick up a game and start playing it at the highest level in days, I wouldnt call that an example of accessibility, but rather a lack of depth.

I think accessibility is mostly about how simple/uncomplicated/easy/low-practice it is to acquire the building blocks / basic skills of the game.

At the very first level, GUI.  Melty is relatively less accessible due to many meters that work in special ways. And in MBAA, the moon styles.
At the 2nd level, control UI.  Melty is more accessible due to standardised and simplified move motions, 3 attack buttons, generous canceling.
At the 3rd level, BnB combos.  Melty can be pretty accessible, depending on character.
At the 4th level, competitive mechanics.  Melty is probably less accessible due to air footsies being a bit tricky to get the feel of.

So yeah, I guess accessibility will vary as you move along the learning curve.  But its better to be more accessible in the early stages than it is to be tough early and easier later on.

Offline Rokunaya

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2011, 08:06:00 AM »
That's saying the game isn't accessible since you'll need to play for 40 days before you can compete on an even level with the current best.  Using your rpg analogy change the level cap to 100 and the last 10 levels take a day each, that is you can get close to the top fast but that last stretch is a pain in the ass.

Are you trolling?  A game is ridiculously shallow if someone can pick up the game and compete with the current best in less than 40 days.  Even 40 days is way too little time for someone to be able to pick up a game and become the best.

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Offline WYVERN LORD

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2011, 09:47:12 AM »
Outside of the ease of basic hitconfirms and comparatively simple special move inputs I  really don't see how melty is an easy game to get into, most people I've met who play the game for the first time are usually confused by the sets of three different, equally non-intuitive meter mechanics, reverse beats, "neverending pressure," and lack of clearly-defined character archetypes (this one is more important than a lot of people realize, not only does it make choosing a character difficult but characters' optimal play styles aren't immediately apparent). I think the initial hump to entry is probably higher than most games, though after that's surpassed I think the game is not exceptionally difficult or simple in comparison to others

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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2011, 02:47:31 AM »
Accessibility is how hard it is/how much practice it takes/however you want to word it to get to playing at a competent level.  Depth, depending on how you look at it is either how many [good] options you have in every situation or infinite by default because the options loop infinitely countering each other in rps fashion.  The true depth in fighting games comes from figuring your opponent out and is thus entirely reliant on them.  I'm not sure how to explain it but the basic idea is that when you play your opponent instead of the game you have more options.  It's not like now you can wakeup mash as an option, but planning for "mindgames" ahead, such as you're going to go high twice then low instead of deciding individually each time you set up the mixup.  This is why talking about depth in fighting games is mostly meaningless, every fighting game that isn't completely broken has the same depth.

One of the things that people seem to think is depth but isn't is the number of moves/combos/whatever you can do.  In the case of combos, outside of escape-able ones which I won't get into, there is zero depth.  After the point of hit-confirming you are always going to go into the best combo for the situation.  The decision making comes before the combo, as in how to land it, not the actual combo itself.  It's not a choice of do you want damage or do you want oki because unless you aren't prepared for the situation you will always choose the best one.  An easy example is when the damage option will kill a character/win a round.  It's obvious which is the better option then.  If you don't know which is better that isn't depth, that's you not being prepared for the situation.

An exercise you can do to help understand this is find any situation in any fighting game that you want.  Make a list of every option that both players have in this situation.  Include every single option, not just the good ones.  Now create a grid/spreadsheet and write what happens when both players use said options.  You'll quickly realize most of your options are completely useless because there is another option that does better against everything else.  Not understanding this makes games seem deeper than they are.  Even though your 2a will win against some things, your 5a does just as good or better against everything, thus 2a isn't an option for you.  In this situation 2a isn't providing depth but an uninformed individual might think it does.

What people are saying about the initial hurdle of accessibility for Melty is true.  Melty's chains don't work like any other fighter and there are a lot of system mechanics thrown right at you at the start, especially with the three moons but after you get over that it's easy for a while.  Most basic and almost advanced combos/techniques are easy, although some of the higher end stuff will make a vegetarian want to kick a kitten.  Once you get there you then have 80ish matchups to learn which isn't hard but it does take time and practically the entire world to get you a full roster.  All in all I wouldn't classify the accessiblitiness as hard but there is a lot to do and a bunch of it is thrown at you day 1.

TL:DR just because you can do something that you shouldn't doesn't make depth.  Not that people posting were talking about it but people reading it were.
Also lets keep arguing about how accessible and deep melty is when everyone thinks those words mean something different.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 02:50:29 AM by Zaelar »

Offline zeech

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2011, 03:45:46 AM »
Outside of the ease of basic hitconfirms and comparatively simple special move inputs I  really don't see how melty is an easy game to get into, most people I've met who play the game for the first time are usually confused by the sets of three different, equally non-intuitive meter mechanics, reverse beats, "neverending pressure," and lack of clearly-defined character archetypes (this one is more important than a lot of people realize, not only does it make choosing a character difficult but characters' optimal play styles aren't immediately apparent). I think the initial hump to entry is probably higher than most games, though after that's surpassed I think the game is not exceptionally difficult or simple in comparison to others

Yes, well, when I wrote the post I was mostly thinking of MBAC, which has less complicated systems/features/UI than MBAA.
Also I'm thinking for people who are new to FGs, and thus similiarity to other FGs is not a factor.

Offline Cristu

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2011, 09:28:58 PM »
Hmm. I always understood depth in a different way. Depth to me always seems like "how much can your skill, experience, training and planning can make difference in your gameplay and results". In SF4 for example, it's more like focused on matchups, reaction and bets/yomi. Skill, training and planning wont make much difference there (unless about execution). But in Melty Blood you can pretty much customize your gameplay: there is so much you can do, so many mixups you can create, so many different strings with different purposes, combo options to choose the situation you want. Also reversal not being supreme and throw no beating poke gives the game so much more mixup potential. You can't act mindlessy. Then you mix everything together in a fast paced game with 2 jumps and 1 airdash... there is no limit where your skill, experience, training and planning can take you. That's depth to me.

The more deep, the less acessible competitively. It's a logical rule. However, Melty Blood is very acessible game to learn because it's simple. Isn't trackmania simple, for exemple? But is it acessible competitively? Definitely no.
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Offline zeech

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2011, 09:03:28 PM »
hmm, I thought of a good analogy.

Imagine that the competitive landscape is a mountain.  The best players are at the top, beginners have to work their way up from the bottom.   People compete by throwing rocks at each other, so you can only win against people that are within rock-throwing distance, or if they are lower than you.


The depth of a game is how tall the mountain is.  If a mountain is only 5 meters tall, then the distance seperating the top players and the bottom players are still within a stone's throw.  Anyone can beat anyone.  The game has little competitive depth.   Whereas a mountain that's 10km tall, then there are nuances that seperate even players in the top 50% from the top 49%.


The accessibility of a game is how steep/shallow the mountain is.  (theoretically you can have a very shallow mountain that is nevertheless very tall - it just means the mountain covers a huge horizontal area.  but that's not relevant to this analogy :P )   As an example, BBCS1 Taokaka had an impassable cliff for me in the form of taunt loop - it was a requirement of her game, but even doing 1 taunt loop was impossible for me with the amount of practise I was willing to put in or my reflexes.  There were no "baby version" taunt loops for Tao, there were no "still viable but easier non-tauntloop combos" for Tao.  It was a cliff that made me give up that character.

If instead BBCS1 Tao had a gentle slope instead of a cliff (like the simpler alternatives I mentioned) then I might have made it further up the mountain and possibly even mastered the tauntloop gradually.  But the giant cliff in the way made it unfun and I gave up.


But I digress.  So yeah, depth = height, accessibility = slope :)

Offline Cristu

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2011, 12:16:56 AM »
I agree. And acessible competitively is how much time/effort it takes for you to surpass someone who's higher then you. Melty Blood is not acessible competitively not because the slope is steep, but because the mountain is too big. Even if you can climb easily, sometimes the guy is just too far imho.

And that only applies to low level gameplay. There are a lot of tricky and big barriers in mid/high level gameplay, but they're mostly not about executing combos imo. They're mostly the invisible barriers that prevents mid level players from improving to high level player... e.g. lack of info, lack of planning. Unless you pick some certain characters like C-Arcueid, C-Sion, C-Kohaku... Then you might have some troubles with combo execution...
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 12:34:38 AM by Cristu »
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Offline Crescent Saber

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2011, 06:42:13 AM »
That's saying the game isn't accessible since you'll need to play for 40 days before you can compete on an even level with the current best.  Using your rpg analogy change the level cap to 100 and the last 10 levels take a day each, that is you can get close to the top fast but that last stretch is a pain in the ass.

Are you trolling?  A game is ridiculously shallow if someone can pick up the game and compete with the current best in less than 40 days.  Even 40 days is way too little time for someone to be able to pick up a game and become the best.

Marvel?

LOL I love that you said this. I was thinking the exact same thing.

Melty imo is one of those games that's accessibility comes from it's simple inputs. It's not difficult to perform the moves so pretty much anyone can pick up the game, choose any character and get the moves down quick enough. But when it comes to depth, that is a whole separate issue. The depth of Melty is staggering. I've realized that myself after watching videos of high level play and observing matchup discussions and whatnot. I actually am one of those players who "thought" I was halfway decent at this game not too long ago but now I see exactly how FAR I am from the level of skill I thought myself to be at.

Offline vedasisme

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2011, 07:58:37 AM »
I'd just like to pop in to add my two cents.

A fighting game is not only as interesting as its game mechanics!!  I have a few friends that play fighting games on a somewhat casual level, and I USUALLY played GG or SF4 with them.  We also would pull out lots of other game like CvS2 and KoF98.  However, only ONE of them was willing to play Melty Blood with me until very recently, when we pretty much tricked them into playing with us.

You see, they had a lot of preconceptions about the game that made it seem uninteresting to them.  However, once they starting trying out characters they liked, they started to get into it, and now they play the game on a regular basis.  Not like they'll hop on the Melty Bread scene any time soon, but there it is.

In my case, what got me into fighting games in the first place was being able to connect with a character I found interesting (Robo Ky).  Guilty Gear's execution barriers meant nothing to me as long as I kept learning more about how to use a robot whose very existence parodied the main character's design.

SO...I guess what I'm trying to say is, a fighting game's accessibility and depth are not limited to its game mechanics, and I am sure people play otherwise broken fighting games because of how AWESOME it is as a GAME.

I suppose in the mountain analogy, it's the difference between having stones or exploding pies thrown at you.

Offline Zaelar

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2011, 04:41:59 AM »
You could say the same about any game.  How many people play game x because they have a hardon for the main character, or how many people don't play game x because they think it's too hard(or any misconception).