MBAA Tiers

[Irysa]

I think you're kind of missing the point.

Sab wasn't saying "don't listen to Japanese players", he said form your own opinion. Opinions are pretty much exclusively created and shaped by what you experience so taking on board what other people say isn't the problem, it's just blindly accepting stuff for what someone else thinks. If you're not an idiot this will more than often be similar to what most most people's conceptions are anyway, but too many people really just leech/imitate and never think about anything themselves.

[Mistwraith]

Most scrubs are tier whores anyways 

As I mentioned earlier on, just play what you like and learn all you can on that character before jumping on to another. If you are good, it doesn't matter what tier the character is, I know alot of people who can still pwn with low tier characters.

And if you are just starting out, then obviously pick a easier character to learn with would be advisable instead of a more complex character.

[S-Blade]

This game does not have any bad characters. As [someone in irc] said, this game has broken characters, retarded characters, and pretty solid characters.

that being said there isn't a lot of excuse for not being able to take any given non-joke character and win with them. pretty much every character can pressure, mixup, or zone to a useful extent including the ones at C tier. ask 3s sean if he can do that and you'll understand the difference between the lightweight of these tiers and the more significant tiers of other games.

EDIT for moar:
my point is that you should play who you want to play, and that tiers should not stop you from doing so because as i said they really don't matter especially given the situation that the US scene is in (small and without a lot of knowledge of the game). not even for the point that each player is comfortable with certain playstyles and they should find a character with one, but just for the reason that they like a character. the more you like and are interested by the mechanics of the character, the more you will naturally sit down and discover your own tech, practice combos/blockstrings/pressure, and the more you will think about the possibilities of the character for new tech when not actively playing or talking about the game. i picked both my characters for AA because i was really hype for kara no kyoukai and because i had a lot of fun with rings, and neither are on any tier list still. even back in AC ps2, i don't even remember why i picked kouma because i was way more interested by aoko at the time, and look how far i got with him in terms of exploring the character.

[Ultima66]

Everyone except for top tier and moon styles no one wants to use are pretty much on the same tier anyways.

[MasterT]

zone... ask 3s sean if he can do that.

Basketball!!!

[Ultima66]

zone... ask 3s sean if he can do that.

Hey I've seen Sean basketball diss Ken SA3 combo for a win and him super straight through a Chun SA2 on reaction for punish. Clearly a broken character.

[MissedFRC]

This game does not have any bad characters. As [someone in irc] said, this game has broken characters, retarded characters, and pretty solid characters.

There's really no one 'broken' IMO in AA.

[mir]

This game does not have any bad characters. As [someone in irc] said, this game has broken characters, retarded characters, and pretty solid characters.

There's really no one 'broken' IMO in AA.

Except for Arch. Earth of course.

[Belegorm]

Here's the latest tier list with the expanded C tier (I listed out all the characters instead of being lazy like the original one that just put them in "everyone else"). Hopefully I didn't forget or double anyone. I'll assume they didn't mean for there to be any order within the tiers themselves.

S: H-Kohaku H-VSion H-Shiki C-Mech

A+: F-Maids C-Kohaku C-Shiki C/F-Miyako H/F-Nero

A: C-Nanaya C-Warc F-Arc F-Aoko F-VAkiha C-Nero F-Shiki F-Kohaku C-Maids

B: C/H/F-Akiha F-WLen F-Kouma C/H-Hisui C-Ciel F-Ries H/F-Mech H-Miyako H/F-Nanaya H-Maids F-VSion C-Wara H-Sion H-Satsuki H-VAkiha H-Roa C/H-Aoko H-Len C/H-Arc H/F-Warc

C: C/F-Roa C/F-Len C/F-Sion C-Vakiha C/F-Satsuki C/H-Kouma F-Hisui H/F-Ciel C/H-Ries C-Vsion C/H-Wlen H/F-Wara C/H/F Neco

Is this still the latest tier list?  I'd heard that WLen is higher now.

This is just out of curiosity though; I'll stick to Akiha through thick and thin

[MissedFRC]

Those are still arcade balance tiers correct?

[LoliSauce]

Those are still arcade balance tiers correct?

Yeah.  No ps2 balance tiers have come out because Japan basically only plays in arcades or on arcade balance.

I bet if the top US players got together and put some thought on it, we could get a ps2 balance tier list based on the old tiers, who was buffed/nerfed in ps2, and whatever personal experience they can attribute.

[MissedFRC]

I haven't gotten to any big tourneys for this since they're almost unanimously east coast and I live on WC, but I'm the best player here and I won the only AA tourney we've had so far. I wouldn't mind helping

I'm betting most of the old top tiers are still the tops though, sans H V-Sion.

[mizuki]

IMO, F-Sakiha is B tier (I wish there was a B+ or A- section), H is b tier also, C is definitely C (how appropriate). I also think C-WLen should be B tier instead of C.

[woof]

thanks, ill print out this tier list @ my local library after i put it on my floppy disk

[LordPangTong]

H-Ries, C-W Len, and F-Ciel should be bumped up to B tier, imo.

[Tae Seong Kim]

If you ask me, Full Moon Sakiha is bottom tier.  Her main problems are zoning, maintaining pressure, oki, mixup and average combo damage, which I can safely say are quite bad.

Zoning and Pressure

She has trouble against most of the cast in this department.  Characters like Nrvnqsr, F Tohno Akiha, Ciel, Mech, White Len, Aoko, beat the crap out of her.  Her above average speed helps, but at the same time it is hard to maintain pressure once you do get in since she can not reverse beat or use any of her predictable Specials.  Her DP helps against opponents jumping out and her Jedah Wheels can provide some support.  But only the EX DP is invincible and is highly punishable if shielded or blocked.  Her wheels come out way too slow to be used safely, and disappear if you get hit or if your throw gets broken.

Oki and Mix Up

One thing that has to be mentioned first is she can't get in a proper oki after her air grab.  With that said, you have all the basic high, low, throw mix up, which she can do off a sweep or ground throw.  She has no real cross up game without the use of Instant Heat, no unblockable and has not real good overhead.  She has to rely on her air normals and her really obvious 214B for overhead attacks.  TKing wheel or a simple jump in can start a high to low mix up game, but she has nothing for low to high mix up.  You have to either go for more lows or try a tick throw if you plan on starting your oki with a low.  For the overhead air attack themselves, you are a little limited since you can't dash cancel.

Combos

Basically, you can do a short low damage combo and get oki or, get in a good damage combo with no oki.  She can get in a very nice combo that can top out around 6500, but you need a max bar to Instant Heat, and your opponent has to be in the corner.

Characters like B tier H Tohno Akiha, can get in a full combo, knockdown with oki, and has better pressure and has the highest defensive in the game.  F Seifuku can't even touch that.

[CPhame]

Speaking as an H-Ryougi player, she really feels mid-tier to me.  A bit weak on pressure, slow normals, and nothing glaringly spectacular about her aside from her above average range.  Her range is great, but you hardly use it once you're knocked down and in the corner. 

I'm no F or C specialist, so I can't really comment on them.  But I would venture to say C has better tools than H, in more ways than one.

[Tae Seong Kim]

C Ryuogi can be a contender for top if you ask me.  She has very good mix up and pressure with all the awesome high low guessing games, unblockables, cross ups, and Arc Drive shenanigans.  The C and F versions of Ryougi can benefit from the instant kill glitch.  But even without it, she can easily run with the top tiers.

[LoliSauce]

C Ryuogi can be a contender for top if you ask me.  She has very good mix up and pressure with all the awesome high low guessing games, unblockables, cross ups, and Arc Drive shenanigans.  The C and F versions of Ryougi can benefit from the instant kill glitch.  But even without it, she can easily run with the top tiers.

Yo, Ryougi as a whole doesn't really have shit for mixups.  High/low for ryougi is a joke.  The only viable overhead she really has is on the second hit of her rekka, and guess what she can't do on the second hit of her rekka - a low hit.  There's that quick backspin kick (4c I think?) for some styles, but that has garbage range and her optimum range is just far enough where she can outpoke the opponent.  C and F have unblockables and AD setups.  That's about it  as far as setups and mixups go for Ryougi.  Her pressure is okay, she has some decent reversals depending on style, and her range is godlike.  That's about it.  Oh, and she takes damage like a bitch.  I'd say she's B, maybe low A.

[Shizuka]

I would have to agree with loli on this one, as one more note H-Ryougi has really good guard and chip damage, but again, she suffers from a lack of real mixups.

[mizuki]

You're saying C-Ryuogi is contender for top, while you say F-Sakiha is scraping the barrel? What kinda whackiness is this?

F-SAkiha averages +4k for basic BNB, and is neutral after air throw. Meaning you can air throw them into the corner and attempt to mixup (2b stager with 5b, occasional 214.) She has really good IH setups to get meter back, a good arc drive (which has good setups too.) She has 2 crossup air normals (j.c, j.b only on crouchers.) Anti heat setup which leads to her 22a loop which is meterless.

While you look at Ryougi, who is one of the most linear characters in the game, has the most obvious high/low game you can block on reaction, you can call her close to top? I think you have to play some good players or something, because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

[Shizuka]

top US players got together and put some thought on it, we could get a ps2 balance tier list based on the old tiers, who was buffed/nerfed in ps2, and whatever personal experience they can attribute.

Who do we consider top players? I mean obviously the EC guys, but it'll get kinda hectic if everyone posts their own opinions without being good at said character, or having a full understanding of what they can do

[LivingShadow]

I think Ryougi would be in the A-B range leaning more towards A. While she's low on hi-lo mixups she has several 6-4 mixup options some of which I might qualify as hi-low. Most notably 214c vs 421c, if you go to duck the 214c and they pulled a 421c instead you get hit by the overhead, although I'm sure most of you agree that 214c isn't that good so if they don't duck the worst they get is blockstun.

[S-Blade]

Ryougi isn't anywhere close to top, sorry. H and C don't have long enough range to really abuse well enough to be useful, and as for H and C rushdown, honestly X-COPYing banana shiki would be more effective (which is still good but you're arguing contender for top). It's hard for any style of ryougi to get strong enough knockdowns to start any kind of good pressure because her airthrow sucks and she doesn't really have a lot of moves that would be useful for a setup anyway. Add that she doesn't have a ton of moves that are neutral on block and you have a weak pressure game. F Ryougi benefits from lots of range and as a result, a good amount of abare with a more the great ability to get those random hits. However, her pressure is even weaker and has to be done carefully and under certain circumstances. What she does gain is 5[c], which, in addition to her unblockable rekka ender, at least keep the opponent on their toes while chipping away slowly at their lifebar from a safe distance. Her air to air is the best in the game, but her air to ground is probably the worst, creating issues since once you jump you've either already won or already lost depending on where your opponent is. I'd put F over C and H because she actually offers something that most other characters don't have (bias I know). However, I'd still put them all at upper-mid tier (A, although not A+) at absolute best, realistically being at B with everyone else

TSK, you make FSAkiha sound a lot worse than she actually is. She is bottom (since bottom in this game is pretty good), but more than usable and possibly useful for specific matchups. The zoning she can do with rings is actually pretty good since the rings stay out so long and she can do them from anywhere, and 22a/b and 214a/b as blockstring enders are decent and safe enough to be worth it to try and pressure. The rings are also really great for guard breaking people which can be really effective against some characters who jump a lot. When you start catching your opponent off guard and successfully pull off random rings in the corner for pressure, then her pressure/mixup actually starts getting a bit interesting and fairly good so there's at least some potential there. That being said, she's one of few characters who can both zone a lot of the screen (combining air mobility and rings) as well as pressure (with rings). If her rings couldn't be dealt with very easily on reaction (see ring -> dash forward can rape her and it really isn't that hard) she'd easily be at B tier with everyone else or possibly better than that, so IF you can manage to be random enough with your rings to not get punished for throwing them out in the corner, you can do well.

[CPhame]

I sat down and watched H Ryougi combo vids again, and I changed my opinion of her a little.  She has excellent combos, what with sweep loops and knife throw extenders.  That small fact puts her above C and F moon in regards to the amount of damage she can dish out, which is a lot.  She doesn't have any sandoori level mixups, but she does have very basic traps using her arc drive.  A lot of her moves give untechable knockdowns as well.

4C is a terrible overhead for being so short-ranged, but she can go into them rather easily from just a simple 2A 5B > 4C block string.  Plus, if you manage to land one, a sweep loop is waiting for you (depending on the character of course).  A blocked Air j.C > 6A+B > j.C is another example of a basic mixup game.  You can ignore the second j.C and just land normally, and move into a low hitting move.  214B is alright as far as overheads go, but it's not too reliable as it kills momentum on block.

Her guard crush strings are pretty beefy though.

j.C > 6A+B > j.C (land) 2A 5BB 2B 5C 2C >22A > 2A 5BB 2B 5C 2C 214C > j.B (land) 2A 5BB...

I'm not so sure if F would be better than C or H due to her damage output.  It's pretty small.  Her range saves her, but put that against a character with even more range and she's at a disadvantage (I'm thinking of F Nero for example).