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Author Topic: Me vs. Turtle  (Read 13595 times)

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Offline Irovax

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Me vs. Turtle
« on: May 23, 2007, 09:50:59 AM »
Currently, there's only one person at school who can beat me, and the only way he does is by turtling+2BB,Dash to distance you, and spamming Akiha's Flame pit and EX Flame column if you stay too far away. The problem is, he's REALLY good at turtling. He knows every characters' pressure strings and high/low mix-ups and can tell the difference far too often.

I'm using Ciel, and my strategy so far has been to EX Hiero when he tries to EX, but I run out of Circuit. He crouch-blocks more often than standing, but Ciel's high-block-only is a charge, which gives him more than enough time to react, and I can't combo after her Bladesinger unblockable.

I'm perfecting Ciel's 2C2C Mix-up, though I have pulled it off to little avail. I'm also learning to use Ciel's Hiero to Throw, but since he's crouching, it's hard to grab before landing. I don't mind learning a new character, and I was wondering if there was a better unblockable character.

Also, what's the best thing to do if I enter Max Heat mode against him? I use one EX Swordrain, but that gives him more Circuit than the chip damage is worth...

Thanks so much for helping out this noob~

Offline Light

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2007, 10:24:27 AM »
Currently, there's only one person at school who can beat me, and the only way he does is by turtling+2BB,Dash to distance you, and spamming Akiha's Flame pit and EX Flame column if you stay too far away. The problem is, he's REALLY good at turtling. He knows every characters' pressure strings and high/low mix-ups and can tell the difference far too often.

I'm using Ciel, and my strategy so far has been to EX Hiero when he tries to EX, but I run out of Circuit. He crouch-blocks more often than standing, but Ciel's high-block-only is a charge, which gives him more than enough time to react, and I can't combo after her Bladesinger unblockable.



How exactly far away is he doing this stuff to you? Flame pit is only effective if the land do while your knocked down or getting knocked down.
 


I'm perfecting Ciel's 2C2C Mix-up, though I have pulled it off to little avail. I'm also learning to use Ciel's Hiero to Throw, but since he's crouching, it's hard to grab before landing. I don't mind learning a new character, and I was wondering if there was a better unblockable character.



Which version are you using and are you hitting him?

From what I read so far, IMO, the best thing you can do is work on your mixup besides learning how to get pass his midscreen game. If he`s blocking that much, he`s giving you good opporunities to land damage on him. If his defensive game is real basic, and you know how he reacts to certain situations, then you need to severly exploit his weaknesses and try to force him to stop being on the defensive so much, so he can try to retaliate against you more often.
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Offline Choco

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2007, 11:40:56 AM »
Teach him to stop blocking. Start throwing a lot, especially tick throws. Staggering your moves to bait him out of blocking just at the wrong frames would be good. If he likes to block while you're in max mode, go for blood heat and punish him with an unblockable air drive. And unless I am mistaken, 4[ b ] as Ciel is an overhead, right? Slow, but it might work if you use it sparingly.

Also, if you haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbqaak52pjc
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 08:20:22 AM by Choco »

Offline Zaido

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2007, 01:51:59 PM »
Currently, there's only one person at school who can beat me, and the only way he does is by turtling+2BB,Dash to distance you, and spamming Akiha's Flame pit and EX Flame column if you stay too far away. The problem is, he's REALLY good at turtling. He knows every characters' pressure strings and high/low mix-ups and can tell the difference far too often.

I'm using Ciel, and my strategy so far has been to EX Hiero when he tries to EX, but I run out of Circuit. He crouch-blocks more often than standing, but Ciel's high-block-only is a charge, which gives him more than enough time to react, and I can't combo after her Bladesinger unblockable.

I'm perfecting Ciel's 2C2C Mix-up, though I have pulled it off to little avail. I'm also learning to use Ciel's Hiero to Throw, but since he's crouching, it's hard to grab before landing. I don't mind learning a new character, and I was wondering if there was a better unblockable character.

Also, what's the best thing to do if I enter Max Heat mode against him? I use one EX Swordrain, but that gives him more Circuit than the chip damage is worth...

Thanks so much for helping out this noob~

go to the Ciel section and watch the videos that they posted of Korean CL player and other Ciel videos to learn some Ciel tricks rush down etc... you can see what they do... watch Ikusat's Ciel Tutorial as well to learn some basics of combos mix up etc...
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2007, 03:46:09 PM »
Grab.  Throw knives at full screen to build meter if he lets you.  Save your meter for punishing with 236c, and maybe regening life.

Offline Irovax

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2007, 05:07:27 PM »
Let me start by saying, Thank you all so much for your input!

Clear Sky- He doesn't ignite the pits, he just casts them to suck up circuit and force me closer to him. I'm using Final Tuned, 2.501. I have the Act Cadenza for the PS2, but it's a pain to lug a TV and the console to school, so I just bring my laptop. I've tried emulating ((It should be okay to say this, right? I own the actual disc...)), but it's not the same at 30 fps.

Choco- How should I get a throw in? If I ever dash in, he hits me with a 2A>2BBB. I've tried getting in during the clash frames, but if I try to start a clash war, I lose. ((Maybe I'm using the wrong moves? I usually use 2A or 6A...)) Should I just mash throw, and will it break a clash war? I just learned that I can jump out of a clash war, so I'll be trying that tomorrow. Also, could you expand on tick throwing? And is the air drive still 41236C? I've never heard of it. >.<;; And yeah, 4 is an overhead, but he just stands up and blocks it. I'm thinking of a way to chain out of it, since it's so slow that he just 2A's, so maybe if I could fake it, then follow up into a low combo or something...

Zaido- Yeah, I basically have Ikusat's video as my homepage, and is played once a day on my PSP. X3 I can pull the combos off at a slower speed, and am currently making my way up to normal. I am having a problem landing the air-throw at the end, but I guess that's just something I'll have to work out on my own-- but just curious, is it because I'm using the A+D shortcut button instead of pressing A and D?

Zaelar- Same thing about throwing-- I can't get through his 2A. >.> He also doesn't mash 2A, so if I try to dash into an attack, he pauses just long enough after the first 2A to block an attack, and just short enough to win the Clash. Also, is it worth giving him as much circuit as I earn?

Also, I'm learning to use Warcrueid, since she has an EX grab... but can that be blocked?

Again, thank you so much for your help!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 05:29:49 PM by Irovax »

Offline Zaido

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 05:39:51 PM »
reasons airthrow can miss are either too far or too high...  or the way ur pressing 6 A+D if it s a little off like 7 A+D then you will not throw and just shield

if AKiha casts Flame Pit

just rush in and hit him

if he does 2aaaa2BBB block it and block the last B from 2BBB and punish it

if akiha is doing 214A or B or C just shield it
and punish him

if he does air 236A while running just block it and rush in again

there are many forms of rushing in, you just have to know how to block what is gona happen
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Offline Irovax

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 06:08:54 PM »
Yeah, I think I'm not moving in the right direction during my combo. I don't hear the block, I just grab nothing.

Anyways...

Quote
if AKiha casts Flame Pit

just rush in and hit him

He only casts the pit whenever I'm at the opposite end, which is more than enough time, even if I throw a sword, for him to return to blocking.

Quote
if he does 2aaaa2BBB block it and block the last B from 2BBB and punish it

O_O Thank you! I didn't know it was blockable! I played as Akiha during the old Re-ACT ((non-FT)) days, and I never saw a computer block it. I've been watching CL's videos for pressure strings, so I'll be fighting a really close game from now on.

Quote
if akiha is doing 214A or B or C just shield it
and punish him

If I shield it, I'm stuck in the animation for too long to do anything. The EX move is even worse, since it's full screen height. I've gotten some lucky Hiero wallswitches in when he tries to cast it, but he's learned, and no longer uses it if I Hiero. My best bet has been to dash forward and hope it erupts behind me, but it's scary to see the EX flash and dash, rather than block.

Quote
if he does air 236A while running just block it and rush in again

._. I WISH he jumped. He's on the ground all the time except when BnB-ing.

I've also gotten good at landing some last-frame jB's, so hopefully I can cross over and hit him before he switches directions, then maybe start faking once he gets used to it. There is a problem of the landing cooldown ((I'll try to practice IAD-ing out of it before I land, but since he's crouching, it'll be really hard for me...)), as well as him sticking to a corner like an emo, but hopefully some pressuring will drag his butt out. On the topic of pressuring, say he blocks every single attack ((>.> Which is far too often)). What would be the best combo to let me run my little butt out of range as soon as it's over? It doesn't have to be long at all, just safe.

Also, I realized that I'll never have a chance to use Ciel's 2C2C mix-up, since I won't be able to whiff the first hit ever... Any other suggestions for mixes?

And if I block Akiha's 2C at the very end of its reach, is there anything I can do? I mean, 2C is such a cooldown unfriendly move that there has to be SOMETHING... maybe.

Finally... I realize that this is a really, really noob-y question to ask, but what are all of Ciel's High or Low block only moves?

Anyways, it turns out he's getting sick... so I'll have to wait a bit longer for our rematch. =P
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 06:20:53 PM by Irovax »

Offline Psylocke

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2007, 06:44:44 PM »
Just pretend the Flamepit isn't there.  If he's going around randomly casting flamepits everywhere(especially if they're the A or B versions), then you're not going to be losing that much life from standing on them.  The only time regular Akiha's flamepits become a real threat is when she casts the EX Flamepit when she has you in the corner.  If he's randomly casting the EX Flamepit everywhere, then..  just let him waste his circuit  >:D
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Offline Zaido

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2007, 07:39:25 PM »
214A shielding isnt' so bad.. 214A akiha has a pretty long recovery

214B has a little bit more start up

214C also has quite a start up, but Shielding it would let you be able to cancel to a normal or special and attack back anyways...

if he does 236A on the ground block those too or jump over it and attack

Akiha isn't That crazy when it comes to turtling not like Aoko and orbs, Akiha has some frame traps and allthat with the Flames and stuff but other then that all you have to do is get in there and attack him.. Ciel has a long list of varieties she can use to engage Akiha and should be used...
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Offline COD3player

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2007, 08:21:16 PM »
Wow. I have A LOT of experience with this matchup. Hehe. You can check my page for some matches of me vs Psy's Akiha. Then again, Psy doesn't turtle and those matches are pretty old so I'm wondering how useful they'll really be. However you still might find something useful.

General advice vs Akiha:
-If your opponent is bold enough to do 236C while you're knocked down in the corner with meter, reversal with your own 236C. This is a MUST as it gets you out of the corner while being able to score damage and put them in the corner.
-Akiha doesn't have a reliable dp to get her out of wakeup corner situations but you must be wary about her wakeup 236C as it grants her a fair amount of invincibility on startup and it leaves her at an advantage in a trade. So after you land an air or ground throw, try to time your jump-in/air dash in such a way that you have enough time to block the 236C. After a ground throw, you can do an empty jump towards her and if she does 236C you still have your double jump and air dash to avoid the super entirely. Position yourself in such a way so that she can't hit you upon landing.
-Throwing is your friend, ESPECIALLY against a turtle. Mix up your throw attempts. Check the Tutoring Center in the Ciel subforums for different throw setups.
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Offline LoliSauce

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2007, 11:12:27 PM »
Since you're playing in Final Tuned, why don't you just save the replays of the matches against him and zip+host em for us.  That way we can see you two in action and give specific advice that will be able to help you much better.
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Offline Magikarp9

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2007, 11:48:55 PM »
You're contradicting yourself actually.

When you dash in, does he 2a you immediately?If so, do dashing 4c, its an easy way to beat that cleanly.
Oh, wait, you said he's a turtle, then dash in and just throw his ass.

Oh, he does EX flametongue as a reversal?Empty chain your whiffed 2a into EX Hiero then!

Pits?Did you know you have normal swords?214a is untechable on counterhit and combos into EX Hiero even.

Hmm...why doesn't he sound so hard afterall?

Offline Zaido

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2007, 11:50:12 PM »
You're contradicting yourself actually.

When you dash in, does he 2a you immediately?If so, do dashing 4c, its an easy way to beat that cleanly.
Oh, wait, you said he's a turtle, then dash in and just throw his ass.

Oh, he does EX flametongue as a reversal?Empty chain your whiffed 2a into EX Hiero then!

Pits?Did you know you have normal swords?214a is untechable on counterhit and combos into EX Hiero even.

Hmm...why doesn't he sound so hard afterall?

lol Lord magus has spoken :O
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Offline Irovax

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2007, 12:53:29 AM »
=O Indeed, so he hath.

Quote
When you dash in, does he 2a you immediately?If so, do dashing 4c, its an easy way to beat that cleanly.
Oh, wait, you said he's a turtle, then dash in and just throw his ass.

I didn't mean that he does each of those all of the time, but I that I have a fifty fifty chance of damaging him. However, I've never had luck on my side, and I only get him about once every five approaches. >.> Maybe I have a tell, or maybe his LUK is 255.

Quote
Oh, he does EX flametongue as a reversal?Empty chain your whiffed 2a into EX Hiero then!

I try, but what should I do about circuit? He gains faster than I do, since he's blocking.

Quote
Pits?Did you know you have normal swords?214a is untechable on counterhit and combos into EX Hiero even.

But swords don't travel fast enough to reach him before he can return into his shell.

Oh! Don't get me wrong, by the way. Your stuff was really helpful!!

These only apply to how I WAS playing. I'll be more in-his-face next time, so I should be able to flame sword/EX Hiero next time. I've been practicing an A-Hiero A infinite ((It's not really an infinite, but if he's blocking, it'll push me far enough away to go again, and it deals decent chip damage)), which works wonders in theory ((a.k.a. Training)). However, I want to toss in some throws, but I can never seem to reach the opposite side of the screen consistently. I can C-throw a standing player every time, but I just barely miss a crouching person ever so often. I'm holding 6 and pressing A to release, if that's the problem.

Offline Zaelar

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2007, 02:27:51 AM »
You're playing FT?  Spam 4c.  Dash 4c all day.  Clean ground hits that aren't too far combo into 2c5c air, far hits go into 5c xx 236c, air hits just go right into air or 236c.  On block whiff a 2a or throw knives to build meter/chip.  If it loses to clashing, try going into 2b.

When we say throw, we mean ground 6a+d, not 236 a/b, c.

Offline Magikarp9

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2007, 10:36:09 PM »
There's no way that blocking gains meter faster than the person attacking, unless you're doing like EX Swords.

When I say to use 214a to counterhit->ex hiero him, you don't do it in response, you use it to encourage him NOT to randomly flamepit unless safe, meaning you do it as a pressure tool.

Learn your safe strings and your ambiguous strings. Multi A Hiero does not work at all - cut out the gimmicks and just smack him down. Your opponent is playing supremely poorly.

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2007, 10:44:05 PM »
I love it when karpy gets mad.

The hate just overflows.

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Offline COD3player

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2007, 01:14:55 AM »
A bit excessive, but the point does get across.
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Offline Choco

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2007, 07:51:39 AM »
Choco- How should I get a throw in? If I ever dash in, he hits me with a 2A>2BBB. I've tried getting in during the clash frames, but if I try to start a clash war, I lose. ((Maybe I'm using the wrong moves? I usually use 2A or 6A...)) Should I just mash throw, and will it break a clash war? I just learned that I can jump out of a clash war, so I'll be trying that tomorrow. Also, could you expand on tick throwing? And is the air drive still 41236C? I've never heard of it. >.<;; And yeah, 4 is an overhead, but he just stands up and blocks it. I'm thinking of a way to chain out of it, since it's so slow that he just 2A's, so maybe if I could fake it, then follow up into a low combo or something...

Before anything else, IF YOU ARE PLAYING FINAL TUNED ON A PAD, then bind D+A to a button. Shoulder button works well. This will allow you to be much more precise with your throwing and get you in practice for it. If you're on a keyboard.... May God have mercy on your soul.

This is where the mind games come in. You need to make your opponent fear you. If you're coming flying in for a j.C, he'll probably block it. After blocking it, instead of attacking the moment you hit the ground, you can wait for his blockstun to wear off. When that wears off, you'll be right next to him and can perform a throw. He needs to expect that you'll attack for this to really work.  Mix it up so you throw, or you attack after a short delay and catch him off guard when he tries to counterattack. In fact, you don't even need to j.C. Land and throw. High -> low and high-> throw and low -> throw mixups randomly mixed up should have a positive effect.

Someone else could explain the theory of the tick (throw) better than I can, so I'll let them do it.


Offline Zaido

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2007, 11:46:59 AM »
final tuned on keybaord already had a bined Throw button its the J button :/ if you left the controls as default
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Offline Irovax

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2007, 09:59:32 PM »
=X Sorry to say, but the multi A Hiero did the trick best, with a Hiero throw finish. I got a few throws in, and a few mixups, and the jC-wait-throw worked wonders a few times, as did the flame sword>EX Hiero.

Oh, and apologies for the exaggeration about gaining meter faster than I did... I thought it would be obvious. >.<;;;;;;

=P A group of us have been playing from three P.M. until two A.M., so forgive my wooziness.

I thank you all muchly for your help!

Now he's trying to do Ren's ball-twirl and Sion's Throw-low kick-knee-low whip/overhead kick infinites, so I just have to learn to bara-cancel, and all will be well. At least the Akiha fortress has crumbled. ^^;

Offline Magikarp9

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2007, 09:58:49 AM »
I have no idea what
Quote
Ren's ball-twirl and Sion's Throw-low kick-knee-low whip/overhead kick
is, but they sure as hell are not infinites.

I don't think you need to learn to bara cancel to beat those. Generic 22c as an EX reversal will beat that if he's just spamming that on you while you block. Properly timed 2a to beat or 4c to clash beats too.

Again, you guys are just using gimmicks. Solid play, even if its simple, will assure you of a win.

Offline Irovax

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2007, 02:53:31 PM »
Quote
Properly timed 2a to beat or 4c to clash beats too.

Ahh! So it does! I was trying to dash-clash, but that worked sooo much better. >.< Thank you so much!

>.> Sorry for using gimmicks. I figured that if he is using the same move over and over again, why not use a move that will beat it every time over and over again, but if he ever tries turtling again, I'll be sure to only use the other strategies.

Now that no one is using anything dumb, I've become... Top Tier, among us? X3 I hope I can say that I have developed at least a simple solid play-style. I guess I'll be hanging around the Ciel, Warcueid, and KohaHisu specialized forums ((or here if they're reserved for tutorials only)), so if you want to critique a poor innocent girl's playing to scrap, I'll be posting replays there. =P But I need to get better, so please do.

Offline LoliSauce

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Re: Me vs. Turtle
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2007, 04:08:16 PM »
Quote
Properly timed 2a to beat or 4c to clash beats too.

Ahh! So it does! I was trying to dash-clash, but that worked sooo much better. >.< Thank you so much!

>.> Sorry for using gimmicks. I figured that if he is using the same move over and over again, why not use a move that will beat it every time over and over again, but if he ever tries turtling again, I'll be sure to only use the other strategies.

Now that no one is using anything dumb, I've become... Top Tier, among us? X3 I hope I can say that I have developed at least a simple solid play-style. I guess I'll be hanging around the Ciel, Warcueid, and KohaHisu specialized forums ((or here if they're reserved for tutorials only)), so if you want to critique a poor innocent girl's playing to scrap, I'll be posting replays there. =P But I need to get better, so please do.
You should hop on IRC.  You can usually get quick answers for any question you might have, as most of the regulars hang out in there.  =>
<LoliSauce>   Yeah, so I live right in between an elementary school and a middle school about a block on each side of me
<Zar>      God loves you, Lolisauce
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<Mauve>      [The Touhou fandom] are like the moe character equivalent of furries.