Steps to anti-scrubbery?

[Keith]

No one uses Aoko... [since she "sucks,"]

Tell your friends they are dirty liars and that my fist would like to have a couple of words with their faces someday.

Aoko's got too much good stuff to be placed in the "suck" pile. Beams, orbs, and what else have you. I'm picking her up at the moment, and I have a blast nailing suckers down with a j.236A/B or placing some orbs her and there to get in their way. Taking lessons from Zar. (I can't reliably string together j.CB j.BC for my life right now, it seems)

All I guess you can really do is break them out of their insanely bad newb habits. If they can't get the suck out of themselves on their own, you'll have to de-suck them by force.

[liphian]

I'm curious, what is the threshold between being a scrub and becoming a "decent player"? Does it just mean being able to crank out a few bnbs, or does one only become a "decent player" once they go beyond the whole bnb phase and start to get in the mind-games aspect of things?

[FireBearHero]

This thread has enlightened me. I'm gonna hang up Aoko- Glancing through cross-ups with 5B's utterly retarded hitbox for brutal punishes is just too much work.
I'm gonna pick up Shiki and EMBRACE the beautiful scrub that lies inside all of us.
Not really.

If J.AAAAAAAA is fun for you then you must really hate winning as you won't be doing any of it unless you radically change up your game.
Do whichever you think is most fun, but it just so happens that most of us like winning so the choice becomes mutually exclusive. Choose wisely 

[Irovax]

as for random select thing

Err-- I'm the one picking randomly, but I'm afraid that having to deal with all of the characters' different playstyles might be throwing them off. I mean, in the extreme circumstances, they become turtling little pansies when my Ciel is EX Hiero ready or my Warakia is in Heat for fear of katto Arc Drive, and they simply break down in tears when my Nanaya is in Blood Heat. But on the less counter-scrub level, they can't deal with Tatari's, Ciel's, Nanaya's, etc. pressure strings, expecting them to always end with the same move, i.e. as soon as they see Shiki's 2C or NAC's biimu.

[Nandeyanen]

MB was the first 2d fighter I learned. I believe these are the steps I went through from starting up, to where I am currently. I'm not great by any means, but this could potentially give you some ideas. 25 steps, with 1 being where I started, and 25 being where I want to end up. It's rather disorganized, and I've added my thoughts/some notes to it, and bolded some points (possibly at random). I am currently rather sleep deprived and may clean/organize it later.


My 25 Steps from Scrubbery: Getting Owned Legitimately

1. Obtained a copy of the game.
2. Found a character I liked and was fairly comfortable playing with, after consulting with a few other players. <- Akiha initially.
3. Tried out my different normals, and throws, and tried to get a general feel for the game and its mechanics. <- In practice mode. On pad.
4. Learned basic combos. <- It was something like 2a 5bb j.bc air throw.
5. Got my face smashed in by other players, got a feel for what did and did not work. Also practiced hit confirming off of 2a into simple combos. <- At this point, I also developed bad habits like using 2c too frequently, and as an ground-to-air anti-air attack.
6. Started to learned how to block correctly, and tried to get a feel for pressure and basic mix-ups. <- At this point it was basically 2a/throw mix-up.
7. Integrated more hits into my simple combo <- 2a 2c 5bb j.bc dj.bc air throw (More like 2aaaaaa 2c 5bb j.bc dj.bc air throw)
8. Glanced through Psylocke's guide on Akiha, the general game play mechanics threads and through other threads I though relevant/interesting.
9. Learned the standard BnB and practiced so I could execute it consistently in matches (2a 6c 4c 5c 2c 5bb j.bc dj.bc air throw). Started to implement whiff canceling.
10. Learned situationally useful variations of the BnB (mainly the guaranteed safe heat version) and the standard wall slam combo as well as the wall slam -> whiff -> safe heat activation variation.
11. Tried to learn the most advanced/situational combo/blockstring with the idea that it would help my execution and overall game play (Akiha's 2c 2a 5a whiff combo, and 2a 5c 2c 623b -> 41236c blockstring) <- This was a huge failure and a large waste of my time. It's not a good idea to learn something that you won't know when to use, and that you won't be able to execute consistently even if you did know.
12. Played multiple games until I was comfortable with the execution of the combos.
13. Learned situationally useful combos like the 623b to corner pit combo and TK9 flame tongues and the TK9 flame tongue oki cross-up. Learned to ex-cancel 623b inconsistently, learned invalid combos along with some basic forms of tech punishing. Started implementing IADs. <- On pad
14. Read through Psylocke's guide and watched some game play between people who knew what they were doing.
15. Learned OTG strings, basic oki, intermediate block strings, heat baiting, heat punishing, TK 7 and 8 flame tongues, and since I was really lacking a good overhead, started to try to get down instant j.2c and the IAD j.a j.2c ->  combo. <- It's necessary to have options. When you remove the quick high/low ground mix-up, you're missing an essential element of the game. Akiha has j.b, but it's harder to combo off of, and easier to anticipate/see.
16. Started noticing and working on correcting some of my bad habits, and refining what I had learned up until that point through game play. <- Bad habits include always getting heat baited when at low health, using 2c as ground-to-air anti-air, etc.
17. Watched many of Yukinose's (as well as other Akiha players') matches/videos to see how he plays, what he uses, and what I could improve upon.
18. Started looking for more players whom I could play against, also started to netplay and traveling to (not so) nearby sessions. <- It's good to play against a variety of play styles, and to play against players that are stronger than you.
19. Switched from pad to stick <- &*&$%^#$%
20. Played many games. Tried out different characters, eventually switched my main. Stopped teching as frequently.
21. Stopped mashing 2a as much (after realizing that when people high shield, it stops 2a, and removes my high/low mix-up). <- This may be a bit character specific. Also, I tried to start maximizing damage at this point, and realized that 2a prorates quite a bit.
22. Examined my move set more thoroughly (Which moves have clash, and when? Does it work as anti-air? Air unblockable? Low or high shieldable?). Examined my blockstrings and high/low/throw mix-up options (How can I best throw off my opponent? In which way can I have them block a certain way instinctively? How do I deal with 2a/j.a mashing?). Worked on follow-ups off of counter hits.
23. Started to integrate shielding/ex-shielding. Realized that circuit sparking is an option. Examined movement (What options are available to me, how can I keep them open? What's the most efficient way of moving? What's good movement to use to bait specific moves?). Tightened blockstrings/pressure. Also, when being pressured, started to look for opportunities to escape or retake the initiative. Examined teching (Should I tech? Which direction is safe? Is it worth the risk?) <- Maintaining pressure doesn't mean you stop thinking (no running in and mashing 2a).
24. ???
25. Profit.

[Irovax]

Insert Aoko "Sugoi sugoi!" here.

Uwaaaaaa~~ Nandeyanen, that's amazing, and exactly what I was looking for! I learned the game through practice and replay reviewing, but ((ahaha)) that doesn't work for most normal humans. =P

Thank you so much, everyone, for you help!

[mir]

24.
25. Profit.

24) Stop relying on the superarmor in moves and realizing that dragonpunch isn't the only wakeup in the game =)
25) Realizing that doing a bit less damage is generally more beneficial than missing your hard combo and eating a bnb for free! Actually no, strike that, I like having free combos =)
26) profit

fixd >.>

[Nandeyanen]

After some thought, I've created a 10 step program for them. Note that I may use unique terminology for things.

Pushing Someone Out of Scrubdom

1.  Have them each pick a character (at this stage, it should be someone they’re comfortable with, or really like as a character. You can give them advice on characters you think would be well suited to their play styles).

2.  Explain basic mechanics: blocking correctly (airborne: block high, grounded: block low. They can learn/you can explain character specific overheads as they play), basic yomi/mix-up (guessing, reading, and using high attacks, low attacks, and throws), ex-cancelable/canceling moves, damage reduction (press in time~) and relevant character specific inputs (for example, if they chose Hisui, then controlling Hisui’s pot output, and if they chose Nero, then controlling Nero’s A snake, and his double snake glitch, etc.).

3.  Have them examine their character’s move set. Have them learn their character’s  basic mix-ups, combos, etc.

4.  Have them play games against each other to see what works, and what doesn’t work. Have them rotate after every few matches. They may start to develop some strategies against specific players/play styles. Discuss problems/frustrations (possibly as a group) they come across when playing against specific characters, players, or play styles, as well as strategies they’ve developed.

5.  Explain intermediate mechanics: IADing, TKing moves, block strings (how to use them, staggering moves, etc.), teching (when they should tech and in which direction), shielding/ex-shielding (when they should be used, attacks that are 'low/high shieldable only'), maintaining pressure (tightening block strings, resetting pressure using throws, okizeme, etc), escaping pressure (circuit sparking, shield bunkers, dodging, jumping out, clashing, anti-airs, wake-up moves, etc.), basic yomi/mind games (tick throws, jump -> land -> 2a, etc) and cross-ups (2nd player glitch, Satsuki cross-up, etc).

6.  Have them each learn their character’s intermediate/essential combos and basic block strings, and re-examine their move set (for clash moves, anti-airs, etc.). Have them refine general techniques (IAD) as well as those relevant to their character (ex. Akiha’s instant j.2c, TK motions, etc.) and play more games.

7.  Advanced mechanics: whiff canceling, intermediate yomi/mind games (tech/heat/circuit spark traps, avoiding traps, etc), fuzzy guarding and damage maximization (reverse beat, proration, and counter hits).

8.  Have them learn their character’s advanced/situational combos (ex. Akiha’s pit setup), block strings, techniques (ex. Aoko's roman cancel), etc. (if they exist), refine what they've learned up until this point and play more games.

9.  Assorted strategy & other stuff: field presence (controlling the field using your projectiles, summons, orbs, bentos, and active hit boxes), damage maximization vs. knockdown (full damage combo vs. options/field control), advanced movement (efficiently using your super jump, dash, back dash, jumps and air dash/es), zoning and positioning (recognizing, making use of, and staying within your character’s ideal range/zone, while staying out of and taking advantage of your opponent’s), recognizing and abusing characters’ strengths and weaknesses, meta-gaming, recognizing/correcting bad habits and advanced mind games/yomi (training and punishing your opponent’s instinctive reactions during a match, making use of frame traps, etc.).

10.  Bara canceling


Notes

They should be free at any point to switch their character, but in doing so, they should recognize that they will have to start all over again, and may find themselves "behind" the other players. However, sometimes it is necessary, as some people can only go so far with certain characters, and may find their play style more suited to another character.

Also, before starting, you should make sure that they can input all the basic motions consistently, 236/214(quarter circles), 623/421 (dp), 41236/63214 (half circles). If they're on pad, and having trouble with the dp motion, have them think of it as forward (or backward) followed by a quarter circle motion in the appropriate direction (ex. 6 -> 236). That motion might also help them get down IADing later on if they're on pad, as they can think of it as something like 6 -> 96.

I may add/adjust more later.

[Keith]

A +HEAT to you, good man.

[Nandeyanen]

Much appreciated. Also, I think this is probably the difficulty level of each character for them in terms of their execution, basic/intermediate game play, hit confirming, etc. I'm not even going to take advanced game play into account, because the probably won't reach that point for a while. Take note that all of this is based off what I've experienced as a player and some may be (horribly) incorrect. I will adjust/correct it as I obtain more information.

Difficult
Satsuki <- basic strings might be troublesome (consistant 623 usage), no air combo, utilizing cross ups (other than that, I really don't know much about Sacchin)
V. Akiha <- momiji loop, low health, utilizing her movement efficiently
Ren <- low health, cat setups, ex-ice/double ice combos, cross ups
White Ren <- she's hard enough as it is
Mech-Hisui <- whip usage, TK jet packs
Arcueid <- positioning character, key corner combo may prove challenging, diagonals may be unfriendly to pad players
Aoko <- orb setups, utilizing her movement effectively. If we ignore her intermediate/advanced orb setups, she's not difficult, but starts to lack as a character

Moderately Difficult
Sion <- most people consider her difficult (I assume because of landing a hit confirm/comboing from a hit confirm, as well as execution concerns.)
V. Sion <- I think she's probably a little easier than Sion because she has a 2c trip, and slightly safer anti-airs (on whiff). However, if we take summon usage into account, I believe she should be categorized in difficult (some people don't consider her summon game to be a necessity though).

Average
Warachia <- new players seem to have trouble dealing with his pressure/far pokes
Hisui <- j.c, pots, 5c

Easy
Shiki Tohno <- 2c, j.c, j.a, best back dash (you may find him lacking game play later on)
Shiki Nanaya <- good back dash, teleport mixup (not actually all that great later on), 236a/b/c, corner game
Akiha Tohno <- high health, simple BnBs, above average damage, good zoning, great AD/AAD, j.2c (if you take her intermediate/advanced game play into account, I'd consider her moderately difficult because of execution concerns)
Ciel <- Hiero, fast low profile dash, much clash
Nero <- j.b, j.c, 2b, relevant quarter circles
Red Arc <- 2b, blood rings, j.b

Other
Kouma <- unorthodox game play (grappler), no air combo, cross ups (I know very little about Kouma)
Miyako <- no idea
KohaHisu/HisuKoha <- no idea
Kohaku <- no idea, basic strings seem simple enough though. Plant usage prove challenging
Nekos <- Don't play the Nekos (it'll cause the other players a lot of grief at this point)

[Pranagy]

Fact : Nandeyanen does triple viper rc combos in guilty gear

Trust me, it's so broken you literally fly off the screen

[mizuki]

Blocking.

[DarkSaint]

Get them off of the keyboard. Obviously it's too hard for them to pick it up on the kb. Have them play GG(since it's easier to learn and some things from GG can be applied to MBAC) See what they are comfortable playing with. ie controller or stick.(the kb is incredibly hard for some people to play with) And have them play other people/watch vids. playing you gives them a safety net, it must be taken away(even though you beat them down)Have them pick knowledge from good players with their main(the internet is here for a reason more than just setting up matches) And throw them in training mode for a week.(until they're doing BnB's on command don't let them out)Teach them how and when to punish, after that they should be able to learn on their own.(I wouldn't even be halfway decent if I didn't learn from the people who beat me down regularly)

[Draku]

Get them off of the keyboard. Obviously it's too hard for them to pick it up on the kb. Have them play GG(since it's easier to learn and some things from GG can be applied to MBAC) See what they are comfortable playing with. ie controller or stick.(the kb is incredibly hard for some people to play with)

I'm afraid i'm going to have to disagree. I play MB and GG on a keyboard quite a bit better than I do with a pad. I do prefer a stick though.

Now, I am not saying that all people will be like me, I am saying that it is all preference.

[DarkSaint]

^I realize that. That's why I said SOME PEOPLE in my post. For some the keyboard is to hard to pick up. That could be the problem.

My preference is a stick. I can play with a pad, but I'm crap on the keyboard(better in GG than Melty) But I fail to see how it would be easier on the keyboard to noobs.

[Boku]

Have them play GG(since it's easier to learn)

LOLWUT?

[DarkSaint]

Have them play GG(since it's easier to learn)

LOLWUT?

Sorry, that was my opinion. If they can't grasp MB throw them in GG. IMO, it's easier to learn links and commands that can be carried over to MB. The moves and inputs(also wakeup attacks)are more friendly than MB's constant punishing for attacking when you should be blocking or shielding. If they can't grasp GG then I say give up. This was my opinion(probably not a very good one)and I probably shouldn't have included this. Either disregard or see if they would have an easier time learning after learning GG.

[Arcrenciel]

lol somebody's gonna need to really help DaeDay teach a (not-so-interested) player (me) how to move away from scrubbiness in this game, cause I can see him getting frustrated already.

[Pranagy]

Nandey you scrub

26. REACT TO STUFF
27. learn the game, not just how to do COMBOS:V

[Alfonse]

Have them play GG(since it's easier to learn)

LOLWUT?

Sorry, that was my opinion. If they can't grasp MB throw them in GG. IMO, it's easier to learn links and commands that can be carried over to MB. The moves and inputs(also wakeup attacks)are more friendly than MB's constant punishing for attacking when you should be blocking or shielding. If they can't grasp GG then I say give up. This was my opinion(probably not a very good one)and I probably shouldn't have included this. Either disregard or see if they would have an easier time learning after learning GG.

I couldn't figure out what's a hard slash or dust in GG for the life of me. 

[Lolihunter Ota]

my advice to people usually is: stop sucking so goddamn much.

problem solved 

[REAL DAKANYA TALK]

but if you throw them into gg, they won't want to play melty blood.