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Author Topic: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code 1.07  (Read 279065 times)

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Offline Celestein

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #275 on: July 08, 2010, 03:59:15 PM »
As I have the arcade version of BB:CS, I can confirm running it on a PC through the IO emulator does indeed lag, but not for the reasons people normally think.

#1. The IO board in a typex2 adds about 3~ frames of lag normally(it's just a shitty piece of hardware), arcade fighters are designed around this, so if you run it on a normal PC, there's always 3 frames of lag you can't remove built into the game, it's really rather jarring when you have them side-by-side to compare.

Could I ask for a bit of a clarification on this? If the IO board has it, why does the emulator have it too? And if the arcade fighters are designed around this, why would it be noticeable?


The Emulator doesn't have it, the small delay is built into the games. Basically the (arcade) version of the game always has 3 frames of lag no matter where it's being played, the difference is in the arcade version they're synced together so instead of feeling like input lag, it just makes the gameplay feel "heavier", this is why people who played, say, SF4 hardcore in the arcades insist that the console version if "faster".

When you play it on your PC it's the same, but since it's not in sync anymore, it "feels" like input lag.

Basically the input lag is always there in both versions, but it's a matter of perspective as to how you "feel" it. Like I said, if you have both side-to-side it's very jarring, though if you've only ever played it on PC you probably wouldn't notice.

 On top of that other PC issues add some(joy2key/xpadder, as mentioned).

Offline mauve

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #276 on: July 08, 2010, 04:36:32 PM »
The Emulator doesn't have it, the small delay is built into the games. Basically the (arcade) version of the game always has 3 frames of lag no matter where it's being played, the difference is in the arcade version they're synced together so instead of feeling like input lag, it just makes the gameplay feel "heavier", this is why people who played, say, SF4 hardcore in the arcades insist that the console version if "faster".

When you play it on your PC it's the same, but since it's not in sync anymore, it "feels" like input lag.

Basically the input lag is always there in both versions, but it's a matter of perspective as to how you "feel" it. Like I said, if you have both side-to-side it's very jarring, though if you've only ever played it on PC you probably wouldn't notice.

...Yeah, no. You've got something wrong here. I asked for confirmation because your original statement does not make sense, and this statement actually makes less sense than the last.

You input something, it happens 'x' frames later. Period. There is no sync as far as input is concerned. There's some stuff in the middle, along the lines of: input -> input processing -> game processing -> video processing -> video display/sync. Somewhere along the lines, one of these is gumming up the works in the PC version, that is not doing so in the arcade version.

If there is compensation, it would be in the form of GGPO-like rollbacks. This obviously is not happening, or everyone would notice, so the linear pipeline is preserved. It also wouldn't make sense in an arcade environment.

What you are asserting is that it's always there in the arcade version, and it just magically mysteriously compensates somehow. And SF4 being slower in the arcades is somehow proof of this. Bad news for you, but output lag is the issue for SF4 (video display/sync). If output lag is where the 3 frames are coming from for this game, then it would be on top of the input lag which is apparent on the PC version, provided both are the same. This is obviously not the case, so therefore the delay is elsewhere.

This has only convinced me that there's something very wrong with the X2/system library replacements, particularly the input processing code, not that there is some sort of mystical voodoo nonexistent compensation that only happens on the arcade version despite it being the exact same code.

Offline Celestein

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #277 on: July 08, 2010, 07:45:28 PM »
I really don't know what you're getting at, I clearly said that both versions have the same amount of input lag, but the visual presentation being delayed to correspond to it simply made it feel heavy, where on the PC the expectation simply makes it feel jarring.

The same thing is happening on both systems. I don't know where you get that I'm claiming magic here.

I alluded to already that the primary difference is simply a matter of PERCEPTION and not actual technicality, and beyond that, the arcade is a (mostly) consistent environment where on the PC you're adding several factors that *can* contribute to worse performance.

If you feel I'm articulating poorly than I apologize(and you're probably right), otherwise I'm not here to argue for the sake of it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 07:53:46 PM by Celestein »

Offline mauve

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #278 on: July 08, 2010, 09:43:52 PM »
If you feel I'm articulating poorly than I apologize(and you're probably right), otherwise I'm not here to argue for the sake of it.

Yeah, I do think you are. I only value numbers and accuracy, statements like "I feel x" or "I feel y" don't really hold water with me, I need a technical explanation.

I'm still not buying this whole "it feels slower" thing, without a real explanation, but I have nothing to compare it with so whatever.

Offline Splork

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #279 on: July 08, 2010, 09:53:37 PM »
"but the visual presentation being delayed to correspond to it simply made it feel heavy"

Press a button, game receives signal, visual is delayed... why?

This is the dumbest thing I've read in a very long time, and I've been around the block, I have to ask you in all sincerity: "are you stupid?"

"where on the PC the expectation simply makes it feel jarring""

Oh, you feel frames, ok. Yeah I feel sun rays and shit too so I'm right there with you, feelings and maybes and guesses and oh I dunno but I'm right.

You know what you need to do right now? You really need to provide some concrete evidence to what you are saying, because other people have provided facts and evidence regarding this subject and their results do not fit you fucking acidtrip puke-sludge that you are spewing now.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 09:55:08 PM by Splork »

Offline LoliSauce

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #280 on: July 13, 2010, 10:25:30 AM »
Yo Splork, you might want to tone down the hostilities.  Celestein may be throwing out some nonsensical stuff, but starting off around here by being a blatant dick isn't going to get you very far.
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Offline Legendary Blue Shirt

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #281 on: July 14, 2010, 07:13:41 AM »
I'm going to try your suggestion with upping the USB polling rate to see if I can pull off some 2xQCFs.

Offline Synthesis

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #282 on: July 16, 2010, 12:45:47 AM »
I think it makes perfect sense. He's saying that it isn't actually lagging, however because of the change in the system (from arcade to PC) it's going to feel different. I know Mauve said that he wasn't buying that, but it's literally comparing imputs from an arcade machine to a direct port. It's going to feel just slightly different because the hardware running it isn't the same.
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Offline Ultima66

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #283 on: July 16, 2010, 02:59:01 PM »
If there was actual input lag people would notice. It's not about it being synced for both players, but if there was input lag people would notice. 3f is long enough that it's obvious when you push a button and the actual input comes up 1/20th of a second later. It's noticeable in one of the console ports of ST that had 2f of input lag.

And 3f of input lag makes certain things not work. Vakiha's (in MBAC, should be the same for Crescent in MBAA) 2A is a lvl 1 move so it has 12 frames of hitstun. 5C has 10 frames of startup. This means it's a 3f hitconfirm from 2A to 5C. If there's 3f of input lag, this confirm is literally impossible.

Offline Celestein

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #284 on: July 17, 2010, 02:38:55 AM »
I think it makes perfect sense. He's saying that it isn't actually lagging, however because of the change in the system (from arcade to PC) it's going to feel different. I know Mauve said that he wasn't buying that, but it's literally comparing imputs from an arcade machine to a direct port. It's going to feel just slightly different because the hardware running it isn't the same.

Actually it's more apt to say I was simply saying it's psychological, you always bring your expectations with you when perceiving something.

i.e. I don't expect an arcade machine to lag, however I look for it on a PC, and thus notice it, even though they both lag. Thing is even after you test for it, and know it's not there, you can still perceive it. Human mind is crazy like that.

Reminds me of how people complain about my laggy plasma TV(it's not), but will play without complaint on the CRT I have actually proven lags until I show them otherwise, and then still insist the data must be wrong.

I'm more concerned that people think that's a "magic" explanation or something with this "I am a man of Science" stuff(Sorry, not intending to call you out or anything Mauve, you're being quite civil and I intend to return the favor).

I mean, if we insist on pretending to be pseudo-scientists here you could most assuredly conduct a double-blind trial and I'd bet get the expected results, expect this kind of test has already been conducted a million times, with the general conclusion that with the right circumstances, different people will perceive the same thing differently, and also most of the time, the same person can perceive the same thing differently on different occasions.

Which was really all I was claiming, don't see what's contentious about that.

That said, any new current code info? couple weeks away, I still have my pre-order in-place though I don't think I'm going to be able to afford to pay it off right at release.

Offline Kusanagi

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #285 on: July 17, 2010, 08:26:10 PM »
That said, any new current code info? couple weeks away, I still have my pre-order in-place though I don't think I'm going to be able to afford to pay it off right at release.
:V
Would you mind telling me where can I get MBAACC arcade? and If by any chance there's KOF XIII x3333
I'm looking for places where I actually can get them to send it off to Mexico :<
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Offline Dintrao

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #286 on: July 17, 2010, 09:19:34 PM »
That said, any new current code info? couple weeks away, I still have my pre-order in-place though I don't think I'm going to be able to afford to pay it off right at release.
:V
Would you mind telling me where can I get MBAACC arcade? and If by any chance there's KOF XIII x3333
I'm looking for places where I actually can get them to send it off to Mexico :<

I'm also looking for this info  :V
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Offline Celestein

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #287 on: July 18, 2010, 05:23:55 AM »
I ended up using Fujita Communications, since my normal distributor couldn't guarantee it on release(not that it makes a difference now, ha).

Y248,000 + shipping.

Offline Dintrao

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #288 on: July 18, 2010, 05:29:34 AM »
I ended up using Fujita Communications, since my normal distributor couldn't guarantee it on release(not that it makes a difference now, ha).

Y248,000 + shipping.


Time for me to go get a job  :V
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Offline Rei

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #289 on: July 18, 2010, 11:37:55 AM »
I ended up using Fujita Communications, since my normal distributor couldn't guarantee it on release(not that it makes a difference now, ha).

Y248,000 + shipping.


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Offline Dark Pulse

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #290 on: July 18, 2010, 03:39:54 PM »
About $3k, like I figured.

...Damn. Wish I had rich friends. :(
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Offline scottind

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #291 on: July 18, 2010, 07:48:51 PM »
#1. The IO board in a typex2 adds about 3~ frames of lag normally(it's just a shitty piece of hardware), arcade fighters are designed around this, so if you run it on a normal PC, there's always 3 frames of lag you can't remove built into the game, it's really rather jarring when you have them side-by-side to compare.

You have a Taitox2??? so do i, and there is no I/O board inside a Taitox2 unit. There are MANY different kinds i/o board made by different companies, all vary by efficiency and features.

That said, the encryption and security schemes on ringwide and ringedge are lightyears beyond what the TypeX and X2 used(hint: you can partially "break" the encryption just renaming a fucking file...it's that pathetic, and to fully remove it, all you do is edit a few lines to remove the reference to the USB dongle, to put it in laymans). Saying it had any security is intellectually dishonest at best.
do you even know how ringwide games come on? it's on a disc, not a compactflash. what's this talk about auto-format?

Offline Dark Pulse

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #292 on: July 18, 2010, 10:05:46 PM »
do you even know how ringwide games come on? it's on a disc, not a compactflash. what's this talk about auto-format?
The games might come on a disc, but the storage medium isn't. RingWide uses 8 GB CF Cards; RingEdge uses a 32 GB SSD.
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Offline scottind

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #293 on: July 18, 2010, 11:13:56 PM »
i know what i said, which is why i mentioned Compactflash. I has assumed that ringwide games would come on CF cards (w/ security dongles), and they'd be swappable, like Taito, atomiswave and neogeoMVS carts, but its not like that at all.

i'm still wondering about that I/O board issue inside the Taitox2 and this supposed 3 frames of lag...

Offline Dark Pulse

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #294 on: July 18, 2010, 11:33:10 PM »
Nah. RingWide is more like how CPS3 worked, but thankfully not as stupid. Probably need to keep the disc in, but the game is flashed to the CF/SSD. The disc is still needed to boot it, I think, and a new game would mean a reflash.

The advantage is that game costs are kept down, of course, since for a new game all one has to send for are the new disc, marquees/art, etc.
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Offline Celestein

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #295 on: July 19, 2010, 02:13:49 AM »
You have a Taitox2??? so do i, and there is no I/O board inside a Taitox2 unit. There are MANY different kinds i/o board made by different companies, all vary by efficiency and features.

I'm referring to the internal PCI IO board, the one that links up with COM2 that you plug your external Capcom/RS/Naomi/Namco/whatever IO board into(which can add issues on it's own as you pointed out).

In fairness I've never actually seen the tests, but always read on various arcade forums that it caused slight input delay in the X2 setup that they tried to design around.

As for Ringwide, just speculating how they might do it based on Ringedge and Lindbergh, we'll find out in a few weeks.

Offline scottind

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #296 on: July 19, 2010, 06:29:16 AM »
it's not a PCI I/O board, it goes into the motherboard directly without a controller. similar to how most bemani PC boards work. It's very propriatary, so most people dont know what the port is linked to, software-wise.

what arcade forums?


Offline ikeTATARI

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #297 on: July 23, 2010, 08:14:08 PM »
If there's really going to be any extra characters, they'd either need to be invented for the game, because about the last two Tsukihime characters that can be pulled out are Altrouge and SHIKI.

Except that Kara no Kyoukai (same universe!) has tons of other characters that can be pulled. Azaka and Touko being two obvious choices (Touko especially, being that Aoko actually references her in her Tsukihime/Melty Blood storylines, iirc) and Azaka and Shiki actually have a pretty awesome backstory. Additionally, the Ryougi family is actually mentioned in some Tsukihime canon as one of the lineages (along with things like Arima) that are well known.

That's not to mention people from Kara no Kyoukai like Souren Araya, Fujino Asagami, or Cornelius Alba. There are plenty of characters in the Tsukihime universe that would fit perfectly into a fighting game - hell, watching Kara no Kyoukai, I'm surprised Azaka isn't there already - she's basically Akiha if Akiha fought like Satsuki. Would be really interesting to play, imo.

Offline Dark Pulse

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #298 on: July 23, 2010, 09:10:04 PM »
Except that Kara no Kyoukai (same universe!) has tons of other characters that can be pulled. Azaka and Touko being two obvious choices (Touko especially, being that Aoko actually references her in her Tsukihime/Melty Blood storylines, iirc) and Azaka and Shiki actually have a pretty awesome backstory. Additionally, the Ryougi family is actually mentioned in some Tsukihime canon as one of the lineages (along with things like Arima) that are well known.
While I quite like Azaka, for all intents and purposes she's a fairly (if not nearly) identical character to Akiha in nearly all ways except for two: Azaka actually has a chest (which Akiha would probably kill for), and that Azaka's fire abilities are actual fire creation, not merely absorption of heat. As for the Ryougis, the only other one who'd probably be "worth" having would be Ryougi Mana... and canonically, she can't quite be born yet. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Touko, either. Or Altrouge Brunestud. ESPECIALLY Altrouge Brunestud. About the only thing Melty doesn't have is the Creepy-Cute Loli - Len is loli and cute, but not very creepy, and neither is White Len - she's more mischievous.

That's not to mention people from Kara no Kyoukai like Souren Araya, Fujino Asagami, or Cornelius Alba. There are plenty of characters in the Tsukihime universe that would fit perfectly into a fighting game - hell, watching Kara no Kyoukai, I'm surprised Azaka isn't there already - she's basically Akiha if Akiha fought like Satsuki. Would be really interesting to play, imo.
Let's make one thing quite clear...

Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime are *NOT* the same universe. They are all part of the greater Nasuverse, but they are not the same universe. At all. Fate, KnK, and Tsukihime are the three sub-universes that make up most of the greater Nasuverse. (There's also stuff like DDD in there, but then we're getting real in-depth - for all intents and purposes, those are the three that "matter.")

The only reason Ryougi Shiki showed up in Melty at all is that she got summoned as a Counter Guardian to counter the "apparent" return of Archetype Earth, but this isn't the real Archetype Earth, it's an illusion. Regardless, that illusion was powerful enough for Ryougi Shiki to be summoned over as a Counter Guardian on the behalf of humanity.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 09:12:55 PM by Dark Pulse »
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: The MB:AA:CC thread: Current Code
« Reply #299 on: July 23, 2010, 09:23:21 PM »
They could always just put in some dead apostles and/or true ancestors and use tatari as explanation if they've been killed already.  Zelretch would be pretty gdlk.
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