hentai
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?

Author Topic: Tier List  (Read 91402 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline f-wlen ice loop

  • the troll that slays gods
  • Magus Candidate
  • ****
  • Posts: 790
  • Magic Circuits: 91
  • i did it
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #100 on: February 21, 2008, 11:51:41 PM »
lina is correct

also this list looks more accurate, people kept insisting Ciel wasn't top and I was like you're full of shit okay

Ren not being S makes sense, and I can agree with her being good but not the best
<fubarduck> hey bell good shit beating kusoru in melty
<fubarduck> he was like "i lost to a long haired asian"
<fubarduck> aaaaaaaaa

Offline HeartNana

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
  • Magic Circuits: 5
  • Stealth Momo
    • View Profile
    • My Japan Blog
Re: Tier List
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2008, 01:04:26 AM »
I suppose having the two top players of each character doing a FT5 against each other character might suffice. Would take a really long time though.
That judges the players, not the characters.
My new Japan blog  (updated weekly)- http://arcanaheartnana.blogspot.com/

Offline S-Blade

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 304
  • Magic Circuits: 9
  • melty blade player
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2008, 01:05:25 AM »
You'd need to have great players of each character who were all generally at the same skill level.

It really is better to just theory fight and ask ;p
"HERE'S A NEW TECHNIQUE - STOP BEING A RETARDED FAGGOT" -SprtJuice on smash scene

<kijea> im like really sad life faggot

Offline Zaelar

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1460
  • Magic Circuits: 70
  • 236c
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2008, 01:33:59 AM »
I don't agree with any of the lists arlieth posted.(as a tier list, among other things)

Also if you check the matchup chart, the numbers don't always add up on both sides.  The Koumas say that he has advantage on W.Len and the W.Lens say that she has advantage on Kouma, for example.  The chart is just some opinions, and some of them need to get some sense knocked into them.

Offline Arlieth Tralare

  • Die Zauberwaffe
  • Zaubererkommandant
  • ********
  • Posts: 1105
  • Magic Circuits: 123
  • POW!
    • View Profile
    • Melty Bread
Re: Tier List
« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2008, 05:05:25 AM »
Zaelar, that's because you think fullscreen supers are wakeups. Also, we already knew about the discrepancies.

Chart "X" is the scoring that's added up when you move horizontally along a row for a character (Row 1 is Ciel, so add up her matches along there until you hit the end), AVERAGED FROM EACH PLAYER. For example, Kubo's score is averaged with the other Sion player's score for "Sion X" score.

Chart "Y" is the scoring added up when you go VERTICALLY down a column for the versus matchups. Theoretically they should be the EXACT INVERSE of Chart "X" results (a 7:3 for Sion vs Satsuki means 7 for Sion going right and 3 for Satsuki going down). However, this doesn't apply to this chart! This is because it's basically a survey of ranked players that don't cross-reference each other's answers.

Chart "XY" is the average scores of each player for a character. It combines the average X character score with the Y score to make a chart that is consistent when cross-referenced.  I'll post a scan of it shortly.
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol

Offline linalys

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
  • Magic Circuits: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2008, 05:49:29 AM »
You'd need to have great players of each character who were all generally at the same skill level.

It really is better to just theory fight and ask ;p

This still doesn't work because take Arly, he doesn't know Nero vs say Aquiha very well.  He's never had to fight a good Aquiha.  Maybe in the ideal good player vs good player situation, the match is dead even.  But Arly thinks it's a 10:0 because he's never had a problem with her.  Is he wrong?  No, not in his experience and that's all we're asking.

The problem with this is that "great players" of each character almost 100% will not have played "great players" of every other character.  You even saw this in the Japanese chart where some people didn't answer how they did vs WRen.  They honestly didn't know and so that space was blank.  The US matchup list will be mostly blank if people want to be super honest about their experiences. 
<Xenozip> actually i think miyako was intuitive for linalys
<Xenozip> simple because his playstyle is.. well..
<Xenozip> linalys
<Xenozip> true chaotic

Offline FireBearHero

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Magic Circuits: 3
  • Deep
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2008, 05:49:14 PM »
You have a lot of time to set up orbs in training mode.

Her lack of damage also doesn't matter since the dummy regens to full anyway.

The dummy also never blocks her overheads, unless you set it to block them, in which case she has one of the combooffable grabs in the game.

Since when does practicing mean training mode, or even AI? Way to completely miss the point.

THE POINT







YOUR HEAD

Offline Zaelar

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1460
  • Magic Circuits: 70
  • 236c
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2008, 05:52:26 PM »
x+y=xy

The first is based on the average opinions, of for the most part two people, of how good a character is vs every other character.  Second is based on other people's opinions on how their character does against the character, and the third is the average of that.  Even an idiot would know thats not how you make a (good) tier list.  You'll likely get something not too far off if the people know what their talking about though.

Offline Arlieth Tralare

  • Die Zauberwaffe
  • Zaubererkommandant
  • ********
  • Posts: 1105
  • Magic Circuits: 123
  • POW!
    • View Profile
    • Melty Bread
Re: Tier List
« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2008, 11:43:05 PM »
Even an idiot, huh? :slowpoke:

Considering that the X+Y is really an averaging of usually two players per character along with cross-references, I think it's far more accurate than anything else we can come up with. When doing statistics, the more samples that you acquire brings you closer to the actual averages that you're looking for, and the XY list is better than whatever we can come up with in America (due to our lack of specialist players) or is practical to do in Japan (because this would require [20 characters * 2 players each] * [20 characters * 2 players each because it's round robin] - 40 matchups [you can't play against yourself]  * 20 matches each (you need 20 matches to get ratings such as 5.5:4.5 since 10 matches would only get you whole numbers) = a rough estimate of 31200 matches played to get ideal numbers.

YA RLY THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN :psyduck:

Also, as mentioned before, this mostly applies to top-tier play. You could introduce an error range of 0.2 in the last column and your results can shift wildly. The data I compiled (and duppy too I believe) won't make this very hard at all.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 11:46:19 PM by Arlieth Tralare »
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol

Offline Zaelar

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1460
  • Magic Circuits: 70
  • 236c
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2008, 01:47:05 AM »
TLDR version:  Tier lists are just guesses due to humans being incapable.  Even top players don't agree(proven by the chart).

You could introduce an error range of 0.2 in the last column and your results can shift wildly. The data I compiled (and duppy too I believe) won't make this very hard at all.

This is one of the reasons why I say this isn't how you go about making an accurate tier list.  You're basically averaging a small sampling of mildly educated guesses.  You're also comparing them in ways they weren't meant to be compared.

If you want a matchup chart based on this, start by taking every match up and averaging their scores and making an actual 10 point chart based off the averages.  For example, Sion vs VSion, start with the averages given,  5.75:4.75.  Add them and you get 10.50, thats 5% too many points.  Keeping them in the same ratio but adding to 10 you get 5.47619:4.52381, rounded to 5 decimals.  Do that for everyone and you have a matchup chart that adds to 10.  Lastly, for the KoHi column, assuming the different values are for who is on point, you'd have to take the lower of the two since someone using KoHi to their best potential will be using the better of the two on point.

While matchup charts are good information to have they aren't good ways to determine tier lists.  They usually get close, but by no means are the end.  For example, in a ggxx(#r?, not important) chart, Slayer was listed as the best, and Eddie second best.  Slayer had really big advantages against crappy characters, but did have a 4 or two in there.  Eddie had nothing below a 5, but since he didn't have as good matchups against the crappy characters he was ranked lower.  I'm not saying this list was wrong, I'm just saying it rewards things disproportionately than I feel is important.  For example I feel moving from a 4 to a 5 is a lot better than from a 7 to an 8, while this system rewards them equally.

I doubt any human or group of humans is capable of reliably accurately making a tier list unless it is glaringly obvious, but even with something seemingly obvious I wouldn't put it past humans to miss something.  It's all based on opinions, it's just there are different opinions(even among the best, as proven by the chart), and different ways to manage those opinions(as proven by this thread).  You can do whatever you want with the numbers on that chart, but I'm not going to agree with it as a way to determine a tier list no matter what you do with them since I disagree with the opinions on the chart in the first place.  You might coincidentally come up with a list I agree with, but I still won't be agreeing with your methods.  And if you bring up my wake-up preferences again I'll counter with your shield preferences and counter-hit with the top players in the chart obviously don't agree with the chart outside of their own row.

You can't use a huge round robin to come up with a tier list.  It might show about how well the best with each character are doing, but a tier list is about realistic potential.  Theres also upsets to worry about.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 02:05:59 AM by Zaelar »

Offline Arlieth Tralare

  • Die Zauberwaffe
  • Zaubererkommandant
  • ********
  • Posts: 1105
  • Magic Circuits: 123
  • POW!
    • View Profile
    • Melty Bread
Re: Tier List
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2008, 02:55:08 AM »
We've already discussed how the charts don't match up at all between X/Y(in otherwords, how the Japanese players don't agree with each other's lists), which is why the scores were averaged out in the first place. It is, however, better than nothing, and also sheds some light on the accumulated experiences that these top players possess. You can criticize the tier list all you want, but you haven't brought up an alternative tier list yourself, or made an effort to improve the tier list by averaging out scores for a more consistent result. This ignores the countless hours of effort put into compiling the list in the first place, not to mention the several hours that I took to average the scores out so that people have a better perspective on matchups. Tiers are never rock-solid rules (more like works in progress) and only apply to character potential, not the player, but are inevitable in any game that doesn't have perfectly balanced characters like Red and White Karate Master.

Hey, I'll gladly admit that I'm an idiot for shielding so much in a game that penalizes your damage by at least 40% for getting it right and has 20f+ penalty for missing. The whole reason I'm making fun of your wakeup EX Hiero/7th Heaven with Ciel is that you're disagreeing with a tier list that puts your character at the top, which puts your credibility at a tenuous position at best. But I'll stop poking fun at it.

If you want to reward matchups proportionally, then I'd suggest measuring Standard Deviations from the Mean for the scores. I was thinking about working on something like that but I might as well now since I've got statistics software burning a hole in my hard drive. I'm still in the process of making a finalized tier list from this data that actually matches up consistently between VS scores.
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol

Offline Zaelar

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1460
  • Magic Circuits: 70
  • 236c
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2008, 08:22:05 AM »
Edit: Bad wording.  I'm basically saying you're using information that can't be relied on, although it's the closest thing we have to reliable information.  I'm not trying to discredit you or dippy's work, but it shouldn't be taken as an accurate tier list.

Quote
The whole reason I'm making fun of your wakeup EX Hiero/7th Heaven with Ciel is that you're disagreeing with a tier list that puts your character at the top, which puts your credibility at a tenuous position at best.

So anyone who disagrees with a tier list that has their character at top has their "credibility at at tenuous position at best"?  If you disagree with a tier list that goes nero nekos w.len ... that would apply to you?  I've said Ciel isn't the best, but she is among the best.  Even if I thought she was the best, I would still disagree with ciel nekos w.len.  As I said, I won't agree with any tier list that comes from the chart unless it's coincidental.  This is because I don't agree with the chart being 100% correct.

I question anyone's sanity that will treat that chart as true just because it's based on top players.  Accepting it as a possibility is fine, but if you care about making an accurate tier list you should be doing whatever you can to form your own opinion and not relying on someone else's.  If you just want a fast estimate and don't want to do a lot of work, then taking other people's opinions and averaging them out is fine, but don't pass it off as accurate.  This wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but I'm betting theres some top player cock sucking lurkers around.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 10:10:36 AM by Zaelar »

Offline F9|Chibi

  • Strongest Idiot
  • *****
  • Posts: 2920
  • Magic Circuits: 136
  • portrait of eternal joy
    • View Profile
    • Pishi~
Re: Tier List
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2008, 09:22:40 AM »
I have to deal with him on a weekly basis.

D:
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


pishi.wordpress.com - Updated once a week~

Offline Dipstick

  • Poverty Emeritus
  • Melty Waffle
  • *****
  • Posts: 1144
  • Magic Circuits: 61
  • cascade of unrepentant doom
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2008, 12:10:59 PM »
Accepting it as a possibility is fine, but if you care about making an accurate tier list you should be doing whatever you can to form your own opinion and not relying on someone else's.  If you just want a fast estimate and don't want to do a lot of work, then taking other people's opinions and averaging them out is fine, but don't pass it off as accurate.
Honestly, I would trust the survey of a sample of Japan's top players far more than the full opinion of any one individual here. It may be a good mental exercise, but that is about it. However, the aggregate of every user on this forum would almost certainly be more accurate (and no, not just self-assigned 'top players'. Every goddamn user) than that list from Arcadia, no matter how wrong each individual person was.

The fact that you even think that people would be taking this simple statistical analysis as gospel shows how little you understand about the application of such statistics. The error bars on these data sets are pretty fucking wide; I think people could give reasonable arguments to move a single data point either up or down quite a bit.... which is exactly the problem.
Worst Nanaya and second worst Ryougi player in the USA

それがわたしのスタンダード!

Offline Zaelar

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1460
  • Magic Circuits: 70
  • 236c
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2008, 04:22:46 PM »
I think you underestimate human stupidity.

Just so I'm clear, I'm talking about people misinterpreting/misusing the statistics.  I'm sure someone went, 'japanese top players + averaged out by arlieth = good tier list' in their head.

Just so I'm even clearer, I'm not calling people that don't understand the statistics stupid, I'm calling people that don't understand them but pretend they do stupid.  Luckily they haven't been posting.  Unfortunately it makes me look dumb for posting this T.T

Offline Sledeau

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • Magic Circuits: 6
  • Talk to the cello, bitch.
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2008, 01:55:20 AM »
Anytime you hear someone comment on how a match was effected by tier, its either by someone being sarcastic/joking to some degree or they're literally a newbie to the game. Lighten up.

Offline Zaelar

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1460
  • Magic Circuits: 70
  • 236c
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2008, 12:27:06 PM »
Every match is affected by tiers.  Complaining about it is scrubby.  You had the same chance to pick a better tiered character as your opponent.

Offline Keith

  • Melty Muffin
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
  • Magic Circuits: 15
  • Back from the dead, hell yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2008, 04:44:31 PM »
It takes a hell of a lot more effort to squeeze out wins with one of the Necos than with one of the Shikis. This much we know.
Running H-Kohaku, and I don't want to stop.
Graced by the presence of His Wongness as he ly ped from the heavens and stole everyone's cash.

Offline Arlieth Tralare

  • Die Zauberwaffe
  • Zaubererkommandant
  • ********
  • Posts: 1105
  • Magic Circuits: 123
  • POW!
    • View Profile
    • Melty Bread
Re: Tier List
« Reply #118 on: February 25, 2008, 08:01:43 PM »
Well, tiers do matter in fighting games. But if I had the same chance to pick a better tiered character as my opponent, then doesn't that mean there has to be a 'good tier list' to reference in the first place? :V

But wait, we can't trust a tier list based upon the most experienced players in the WORLD! :psyduck:

Oh wait I have to make my own tier list based upon my own opinions of the characters! :psyduck:

Shoryuken.com :psyduck:
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol

Offline Ice Queen Lotus

  • Career Advisor
  • Nrvnqsr Chaos
  • ******
  • Posts: 666
  • Magic Circuits: 213
  • you're sick, sick as all the secrets that you deny
    • View Profile
    • 神曲
Re: Tier List
« Reply #119 on: February 25, 2008, 09:56:39 PM »
Sweetie, you're being contrary. :prinny:
there's someone inside me that softly kills everyone around
they don't know they're dead to me 'cause intent never makes a sound

Offline Zaelar

  • Magus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1460
  • Magic Circuits: 70
  • 236c
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #120 on: February 26, 2008, 01:35:45 AM »
Well, tiers do matter in fighting games. But if I had the same chance to pick a better tiered character as my opponent, then doesn't that mean there has to be a 'good tier list' to reference in the first place? :V

Nope.  Doesn't have to be a list somewhere for you to figure out Sion is a good character.  There is one requirement for being able to pick a better character than your opponent, they can't be using that character because then you would have to settle on picking the same tier.  Pretty obvious, but it's something that wasn't brought up.  I imagine everyone isn't so retarded they couldn't have figured that out on their own, but you did just ask if you need a good tier list for it to be possible to pick the best character in any game.

If you want to pick the best character, you're going to pick who you think the best character is.  Whether you are right or wrong is a different story.  And we get back to tier lists, which are just someone's guesses on the matter.

Quote
But wait, we can't trust a tier list based upon the most experienced players in the WORLD! :psyduck:

You can put your trust wherever you want.  If you really care about something being true or not, for whatever reason, I doubt you're going to trust someone else no matter who it is.  You'll likely get some opinions to look into, and maybe even believe them to be true, but you'll want to confirm it yourself.  You might believe something as true and go with it until you find out it isn't true if it doesn't affect you, or your just don't care enough to put in the effort, or maybe you just aren't capable of proving it.(Hi when the world was flat)

If you're buying a computer online(or some parts for building your own), you'd probably believe that everything works until you try to turn it on and it doesn't.  Best way to figure out if it works?  Buy it and try it out yourself.  As I said, you can trust whoever you want, but if you're ordering 3 computers for a tournament, if you get the chance to are you going to try them yourself to make sure they work or are you just going to keep them in the boxes until it's time to start the tournament?  Same with tier lists, only it isn't as important to have them be completely accurate.  Run MB at 90% speed?  not cutting it.  90% accurate tier list?  not causing much harm.

Ninja edit: More on the topic at hand, you'd obviously trust a top player over a scrub's opinion on tiers, but taking a top player's opinion as true just for that reason is moronic.

Quote
Oh wait I have to make my own tier list based upon my own opinions of the characters! :psyduck:

Ever think something is better than something else?  Congratulations you just made a tier list based on your own opinions of something.  If you see a tier list and think something is wrong, congratulations you have your own opinions!

« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 01:38:42 AM by Zaelar »

Offline c-nero 5[c]

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Magic Circuits: 13
  • another well-balanced masterpiece from frenchbread
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #121 on: February 26, 2008, 10:50:30 AM »
Tier lists are nothing more than opinion. If you agree with a tier list it simply means that tier list matches your own personal one. There is no such thing as a "definitive" tier list. hth
<Irysa> arcana heart 3 just red ringed my 360 im not even joking
<Sabator> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
<Sabator> BBCS RED RINGED MINE
<Sabator> FUCKING ANIME GAMES MAN

Offline Arlieth Tralare

  • Die Zauberwaffe
  • Zaubererkommandant
  • ********
  • Posts: 1105
  • Magic Circuits: 123
  • POW!
    • View Profile
    • Melty Bread
Re: Tier List
« Reply #122 on: February 26, 2008, 12:47:38 PM »
Quote
I question anyone's sanity that will treat that chart as true just because it's based on top players.

Zaelar: You haven't mentioned taking into account the player's actual skill level when taking tier lists into account. Matchup charts, from which tier lists are derived from, are supposed to represent the estimated % matchup rate that two characters played at their maximum potential can achieve. You're nowhere close to that, since you're taking your own opinions and perceptions to make your own 'tier list' when you only have limited experience with matchups and skill compared to Japanese players. Unlike you, I'm willing to accept that someone (or in this case, 45 of the best players in the world) is better at the game than I am.

Also, nobody's said that this is a 'true' (which implies 100% accurate) tier list (I don't know why you keep mentioning 'true'), but several of us do consider it the most accurate tier list currently available. You've got several dozen samples from top players who've put hundreds of hours into the game, and a compiled averaging of said samples. Also, the 3rd Strike tier lists were compiled from matchup charts (just like this one) and is generally accepted as accurate. For a matchup to be 100% impossible for a character would mean a 10:0 matchup ratio, which never happens. Yet you haven't offered any sort of tier listing for comparison for debate.

Then again,
Quote
I doubt any human or group of humans is capable of reliably accurately making a tier list unless it is glaringly obvious

I guess I'm wasting my time here.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 12:49:16 PM by Arlieth Tralare »
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol

Offline Alt

  • Spellcaster
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • Magic Circuits: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Tier List
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2008, 03:39:43 PM »
itt: science through math  :teach:

Offline Arlieth Tralare

  • Die Zauberwaffe
  • Zaubererkommandant
  • ********
  • Posts: 1105
  • Magic Circuits: 123
  • POW!
    • View Profile
    • Melty Bread
Re: Tier List
« Reply #124 on: February 27, 2008, 05:05:27 AM »
Attached PDF of the new accurately cross-referenced chart. All values are means which were compiled from the sample sources of players for each character.

By the way, if someone can somehow get this on the wiki, that'd be nice.  :prinny:  Tell me if you need an Excel file to paste the table from.

-The MB Chart is is corrected and averaged from Tougeki Damashii data.
-The Ordered version has all the characters sorted by tier.
-The MB Chart.xlsx file requires Excel 2007 to view. The chart uses some advanced features such as conditional gradient formatting (that's how I got all them pretty colorz). Do not download unless you know Excel, because it can be CONFUSING AS HELL.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2008, 02:05:03 PM by Arlieth Tralare »
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol