Melty Bread Forums
Misaki Town Bakery => Melty Blood Auditorium => : S-Blade January 30, 2008, 08:35:59 PM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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[21:27] <sekuwrite> these are agreed upon by like
[21:27] <sekuwrite> the entire mbac bbs
here we go
S: Sion, Len, Ciel, Warc, Miyako, Akiha
A: Hisui, Kouma, V.Sion, Mech-Hisui
B: V.Akiha, Arc, Aoko, Nanaya, Tohno, Nero, Satsuki, Maids
C: Kohaku, Wara, W.Len
D: Nekos
Thanks hellmonkey for retrieving this...twice and putting up with our bullshit of you translating it and us yelling at you in disagreement even though you weren't the one who made it.
Now bicker and complain amongst yourselves and how much you disagree with this list.
EDIT: Keep in mind that this tier list assumes you're playing your character at the best of its ability. If this tier list were an "easiest to learn" kind of tier list, Ciel would be first by a huge margin and Nero and Aoko would go down a tier.
EDIT may28,08:
sekuhara: S:Ciel(83)Len(81)Sion(77)Warc(77)
sekuhara: A:Miyako(69)Akiha(67)Mecha(66)Kouma(59)Hisui(58)Nero(53)
sekuhara: B:Vsion(47)Nanaya(44)Arc(43)Satsuki(40)Aoko(39)vakiha(35)
sekuhara: C:Hisukoha(26)Tohno(26)Wara(24)wlen(24)kohaku(23)
sekuhara: characters were rated from S(4 points) to C(1 point) by all of the top players
supposedly revised from the same place (i.e. some popular japan bbs)
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[21:27] <sekuwrite> these are agreed upon by like
[21:27] <sekuwrite> the entire mbac bbs
here we go
S: Sion, Len, Ciel, Warc, Miyako, Akiha
A: Hisui, Kouma, V.Sion, Mech-Hisui
B: V.Akiha, Arc, Aoko, Nanaya, Tohno, Nero, Satsuki, Maids
C: Kohaku, Wara, W.Len
D: Nekos
Thanks hellmonkey for retrieving this...twice and putting up with our bullshit of you translating it and us yelling at you in disagreement even though you weren't the one who made it.
Now bicker and complain amongst yourselves and how much you disagree with this list.
Len? Miyako? Warc? How are any of those 3 top tier? Warc has pretty terrible pressure. She's A at best. Miyako being above B is being very optimistic. Len is probably A. Aoko, Arc, and Satsuki should all go up a tier. Other than that I pretty much agree,
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In Korea, Warc is considered S? :O
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I'll be watching this thread. Don't make me lock ANOTHER tier list thread.
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lol miyako is such a beast. I think I'll drop aoko for her now.......
=/
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Kohaku? C? pssh... i guess ill have to bump her up then ;3
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In Korea, Warc is considered S? :O
Yeah, there is a saying "then just use warc and stfu" that is used whenever somebody complains about their character's weaknesses, their character's matchups, or their skill in general in Korea. As there are few or no competitive sion players in Korea, warc boasts the most amount of competitive players, highest showing in the high brackets of tournaments, and is the primary subject of the I-Lost-Only-Because-Your-Character-Is-Better-Than-Mine comment.
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Ah, I see. That's pretty interesting.
I also don't think Miyako is S tier. V Sion as A tier is a bit :prinny:, and V Akiha's like bottom of A (but top of B is pretty much the same thing, but w/e). Then again the only one who's actually winning with her over there is Hato anyways. :'( Akiha's position is iffy to me too.
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its very interesting seeing the tiers for different regions
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EDIT: Keep in mind that this tier list assumes you're playing your character at the best of its ability. If this tier list were an "easiest to learn" kind of tier list, Ciel would be first by a huge margin and Nero and Aoko would go down a tier.
I don't quite agree with this statement. Just because Ciel isn't hard to use doesn't mean that EVERYONE else is harder to use than her. Melty Blood is a very pick-up-and-play friendly game. I'm going to put up my flame shield since I get the feeling I'll take some heat for this. But keep in mind that I'm saying this from an objective standpoint and that I'm not trying to ignite some stupid war among fanboys, and that I'm also not someone who picked this game up over the course of the past month.
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There is a valid argument for each of those characters, and I'd assume the japanese players know more about this game than I do. However, for the sake of theory fighting, which I find enjoyable, I'll give my input as to what I think the tiers are, in horizontal order as well.
S: Sion, Akiha, Len, Ciel
A: Aoko, Kouma, Mecha, Hisui, Sacchin, Hisui, Warc, Nanaya, Vakiha
B: Miyako, Arc, Maids (Kohaku lead), V.Sion, Tohno, Nero
C: Kohaku, w.Len, Maids (Hisui lead), Wara
D: Neco's
I feel it's necessary to separate Hisko and Kosui as they are basically different characters. All the S, A, B characters are very close together compared to tier lists of other games, with only the C and D characters having a universal disadvantage in most matchups. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm very happy with Melty's balance as a fighting game.
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EDIT: Keep in mind that this tier list assumes you're playing your character at the best of its ability. If this tier list were an "easiest to learn" kind of tier list, Ciel would be first by a huge margin and Nero and Aoko would go down a tier.
I don't quite agree with this statement. Just because Ciel isn't hard to use doesn't mean that EVERYONE else is harder to use than her. Melty Blood is a very pick-up-and-play friendly game. I'm going to put up my flame shield since I get the feeling I'll take some heat for this. But keep in mind that I'm saying this from an objective standpoint and that I'm not trying to ignite some stupid war among fanboys, and that I'm also not someone who picked this game up over the course of the past month.
I'll admit that the example might have been bad. I was only trying to show that there'd be a clear difference between characters whose potentials are easier to fulfill and characters who are better if you play them at their fulfilled potential.
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I think it's safe to say that the tier list is accurate, given the source is Japan and its agreed upon by a lot of MBAC BBS. To my knowledge, tier lists such as these have no order from best to worst, other than whatever tier they fall into. For example, Sion being first in S tier does not mean she's the best of all the S tier characters. If anything, it means that all the S tier characters have even match ups with one another, and have favorable match ups with anyone below them in tiers (in most cases).
MBAC v. B has been out for how long now? Over a year? And it's life will continue until AA comes out sometime later this year, but even then it'll be focused on until after Tougeki. The game has been out for a while, and the potential for each character has likely been tapped for each character in Japan.
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I really don't get all the shit about wlen being low tier. Her mixup and pressure game are both superior to Len's, and although the dash is a criplling factor her amazingly bullshit EX command throw more than makes up for it. Trhoughout 2008 hopefully we'll see more and more established wlen players who can get some good results in.
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I really don't get all the shit about wlen being low tier. Her mixup and pressure game are both superior to Len's, and although the dash is a criplling factor her amazingly bullshit EX command throw more than makes up for it. Trhoughout 2008 hopefully we'll see more and more established wlen players who can get some good results in.
She takes damage like a bitch and doesn't have very good mobility. Her aerial attacks have super low range and her damage output isn't really amazing either. Also to get the most out of her normals, the good ones need to be charged. =\ All of this made her really hard for me to play.
Anyways, I am pretty surprised (as are many, it seems) that Miyako is as high tier as she is while Arc is that low. I guess I can see Miyako being kind of high with her corner game being so stellar and being able to combo off of throws...but really, S tier? =\ I dunno bout that.
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She takes damage like a bitch and doesn't have very good mobility. Her aerial attacks have super low range and her damage output isn't really amazing either. Also to get the most out of her normals, the good ones need to be charged. =\ All of this made her really hard for me to play.
Anyways, I am pretty surprised (as are many, it seems) that Miyako is as high tier as she is while Arc is that low. I guess I can see Miyako being kind of high with her corner game being so stellar and being able to combo off of throws...but really, S tier? =\ I dunno bout that.
White Len has the 3rd highest defense in the game, so taking damage isn't a problem. I think the only thing that is keeping her from being higher is her (as you said) short ranged and not too spectacular air attacks in a game where air superiority is very important. Once she knocks down she has plenty of options, the problem is getting that knockdown. I do hope to see a highly skilled White Len that uses her to her full potential that maybe I don't see.
As far as Miyako goes, I can understand the argument. Her ONLY weakness is her short range. She more than makes up for it with her high priority moves (especially her air attacks which basically beat everything in the game if used properly), high damage output, stupid fast movement, seemless and staggerable corner pressure strings, the ability to combo off of throw at anywhere on the screen, and some other shit I don't know of.
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She takes damage like a bitch and doesn't have very good mobility. Her aerial attacks have super low range and her damage output isn't really amazing either. Also to get the most out of her normals, the good ones need to be charged. =\ All of this made her really hard for me to play.
Anyways, I am pretty surprised (as are many, it seems) that Miyako is as high tier as she is while Arc is that low. I guess I can see Miyako being kind of high with her corner game being so stellar and being able to combo off of throws...but really, S tier? =\ I dunno bout that.
White Len has the 3rd highest defense in the game, so taking damage isn't a problem. I think the only thing that is keeping her from being higher is her (as you said) short ranged and not too spectacular air attacks in a game where air superiority is very important. Once she knocks down she has plenty of options, the problem is getting that knockdown. I do hope to see a highly skilled White Len that uses her to her full potential that maybe I don't see.
As far as Miyako goes, I can understand the argument. Her ONLY weakness is her short range. She more than makes up for it with her high priority moves (especially her air attacks which basically beat everything in the game if used properly), high damage output, stupid fast movement, seemless and staggerable corner pressure strings, the ability to combo off of throw at anywhere on the screen, and some other shit I don't know of.
Oh, my bad on the defense mistake. For some reason I got mixed up and thought she was low on defense. :slowpoke: But yeah, mainly her weak air game and awkward mobility made her really hard for me to try playing.
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I really don't get all the shit about wlen being low tier. Her mixup and pressure game are both superior to Len's, and although the dash is a criplling factor her amazingly bullshit EX command throw more than makes up for it. Trhoughout 2008 hopefully we'll see more and more established wlen players who can get some good results in.
I don't see how her command grab is bullshit. 100% meter for 1500ish damage doesn't seem worth it to me at all. :V
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I really don't get all the shit about wlen being low tier. Her mixup and pressure game are both superior to Len's, and although the dash is a criplling factor her amazingly bullshit EX command throw more than makes up for it. Trhoughout 2008 hopefully we'll see more and more established wlen players who can get some good results in.
I don't see how her command grab is bullshit. 100% meter for 1500ish damage doesn't seem worth it to me at all. :V
The reach.
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I really don't get all the shit about wlen being low tier. Her mixup and pressure game are both superior to Len's, and although the dash is a criplling factor her amazingly bullshit EX command throw more than makes up for it. Trhoughout 2008 hopefully we'll see more and more established wlen players who can get some good results in.
I don't see how her command grab is bullshit. 100% meter for 1500ish damage doesn't seem worth it to me at all. :V
Uh, she can make 3k off it and get a good oki setup, or 4k raw damage. Watch more recent wlen matches.
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You have to keep in mind japanese base tiers on current styles of play for characters, not their potential.
Sure wlen at full potential might be better than some of the characters tiered above her (especially wara who just sucks) but none of the wlen players play her at that potential yet. This is the same reason kouma and aoko were considered garbage tier when version a was out for a while before moving up significantly as more people found stuff with those characters.
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Reckon if theirs a point to a EU Tierlist? =/
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Reckon if theirs a point to a EU Tierlist? =/
Nothing stopping you, It might add to the conversation.
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I have a quick question. I big is the difference in the teirs. Like is the difference between an A and a S so big that it would cause the S player to win even though the A player is considered better in skills? I have never really been on the fighting game scene too much before I started playing MBAC.
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Honestly I dont think so, Because theres theres Vsions that will kick my face in but im higher in tiers
EU tierlist looks like im gonna ask the crew :P
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I play Ciel and lose to Ren a lot
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I agree 99% with OP tier list. Only thing is Kohaku is A imho. I'm surprised the japanese put vAkiha where they do, too.
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Melty Blood's tiers (at least as of now, before actress again arrives and does god knows what) are very close together. If one of the players is a genuinely better player who is experiencing an even matchup situation, the only reason (tier-wise) s/he should lose is if s/he's using one of the nekos.
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I agree 99% with OP tier list. Only thing is Kohaku is A imho. I'm surprised the japanese put vAkiha where they do, too.
Based on sp00ky's post, Japanese players based their tiers on current performance. V Akiha has been doing really shitty in Japan till Hato came back on the scene.
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reason VSion is up there cause all the VSion player are awesome.. like oyashiro, motomachi and stuff !! :prinny:
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Based on sp00ky's post, Japanese players based their tiers on current performance. V Akiha has been doing really shitty in Japan till Hato came back on the scene.
Yeah, the only reason Warcueid is S tier in Korea is because those players has done so well in tournaments. I wonder if Sion would have been S tier had Kubo not used her... :mystery:
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Based on sp00ky's post, Japanese players based their tiers on current performance. V Akiha has been doing really shitty in Japan till Hato came back on the scene.
Yeah, the only reason Warcueid is S tier in Korea is because those players has done so well in tournaments. I wonder if Sion would have been S tier had Kubo not used her... :mystery:
Same could be said for Akiha and Yukinose.
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Miyako is a fucking monster, bitch is scary as fuck when she gets in on you, more then any other character in the game imho.
I agree with the op list.
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Miyako on a Hisui, dead :(
In Korea, Warc is considered S? :O
Yeah, there is a saying "then just use warc and stfu" that is used whenever somebody complains about their character's weaknesses, their character's matchups, or their skill in general in Korea. As there are few or no competitive sion players in Korea, warc boasts the most amount of competitive players, highest showing in the high brackets of tournaments, and is the primary subject of the I-Lost-Only-Because-Your-Character-Is-Better-Than-Mine comment.
In smash we say 'No Johns'
Which means no excuses, I love the korean thinking :)
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Here's my 2 cents. I really don't know why Kohaku and Aoko were ranked pretty low, they have some ridiculous setups.
S: Sion, Len, Akiha, Ciel
A: Hisui, Mech-Hisui, Aoko, Kohaku(Maids), Miyako, Warc
B: V.Sion, V.Akiha, Nanaya, Satsuki, Kohaku, Arc, Kouma, Hisui(Maids), Tohno, Nero
C: Wara, W.Len
Not sure if I'd keep V.Akiha at A or B. But due to the fact that she's a kind of instable character cause of her poor defense mod, I'll keep her a tier lower.
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Aoko sucks.
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That may be true, but I think she is fun to play. What's cooler than having laser eye? It could only be shooting a laser out of your foot.
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Aoko sucks.
Why?
1) She has good 3C anti-air then can catch alot of jump startups that's also cancellable into blockstring on block.
2) Solid oki setups that allow her to re-dash with the help of orb position.
3) Plenty of throw setups that reset back into orb pressure.
4) Numerous overheads that lead to knockdown into setup. ( Even 4C when coupled with 214A/B/C orbs).
5) Practical fuzzy guard setups.
6) Decent defense mod.
7) 3 Air Jumps and 2 Air dashes for aided corner pressure.
8 ) Decent guard break options.
9) Decent damage.
10) Anti-air shyoruken that for no reason at all is possible to combo follow up if they don't tech, or if they do allows you to tech punish if you call it.
11) Practical tech punish setups.
12) If your opponent respects you enough, you can do some really strong air to ground strings with j.C/j.B/j.214/j.236, especially in the corner.
The list goes on. I seriously don't see how she sucks when you compare pros and cons.
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Aoko sucks.
Why?
1) She has good 3C anti-air then can catch alot of jump startups that's also cancellable into blockstring on block.
2) Solid oki setups that allow her to re-dash with the help of orb position.
3) Plenty of throw setups that reset back into orb pressure.
4) Numerous overheads that lead to knockdown into setup. ( Even 4C when coupled with 214A/B/C orbs).
5) Practical fuzzy guard setups.
6) Decent defense mod.
7) 3 Air Jumps and 2 Air dashes for aided corner pressure.
8 ) Decent guard break options.
9) Decent damage.
10) Anti-air shyoruken that for no reason at all is possible to combo follow up if they don't tech, or if they do allows you to tech punish if you call it.
11) Practical tech punish setups.
12) If your opponent respects you enough, you can do some really strong air to ground strings with j.C/j.B/j.214/j.236, especially in the corner.
The list goes on. I seriously don't see how she sucks when you compare pros and cons.
The main reason she sucks is that priority on her basics are extremely bad. Without orbs, she is said to be at heavy disadvantage against other characters in general fighting. But this is talking at Tougeki level play. That is, these differences won't be obvious unless Aoko and the opponent is at a very very high level of play.
CL(extremely high level Ciel player) stated himself that he felt Aoko was at too much of a disadvantage against high priority characters. When he went to Japan, he said he was able to beat high level Aoko players only because he could stuff every move Aoko had with Ciel's priority.
As for my opinion... I don't know, I suck and get beaten by Aoko all the time :psyduck:
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reflecting in no way of how good the actual characters are, just my opinion based on what I think other North America players opinions are:
S: Sion, Ciel, Warc, Len
A: Aoko, V Sion, Akiha, Nanaya, Hisui, Kouma, Satsuki
B: Shiki, Arc, V Akiha, Meido Tag Team, Nero, Mech Hisui
C: Miyako, Kohaku
D: Warakia, White Len, Necos
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The list goes on. I seriously don't see how she sucks when you compare pros and cons.
3c is NOT good anti air. It just isn't. 623a is better. Now 3c is good at beating anticipated jumps and can be safe on block.
Points 2-12 (except for 6 obviously) require Aoko to have the advantage to matter. If she doesn't have the momentum, those points don't matter. Saying you have an awesome high/low setup when you have an orb on them in the corner DOESN'T MATTER if you can't get them into the corner with an orb on top of them. It can be very hard for this to actually happen. Like was stated, Aoko's normals aren't the best. She can have a bit of a hard time trying to get anything started with just her normals.
You also need to specify point 11. What exactly is her great tech punish setup?
Edit: I need to add that I don't believe she sucks but she's not godly either.
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You guys forgot to mention that Aoko is practically immune to cross-ups.
Not only should you have an orb above you somewhere whenever possible, but you can just press 5B and go right through a bunch of shit. (not kohaku; the god of "how the fuck did that just hit me?")
I can't tell you how many times my Miyako playing friend whiffing right through me and eating shit has saved me. (could be more)
Aoko's 5B is the most rewarding move in this game for psychic-esque twitch players IMO, hands down.
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V Akiha is an A tier character.
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Here's my 2 cents. I really don't know why Kohaku and Aoko were ranked pretty low, they have some ridiculous setups.
S: Sion, Len, Akiha, Ciel
A: Hisui, Mech-Hisui, Aoko, Kohaku, Miyako, Warc
B: V.Sion, V.Akiha, Nanaya, Arc, Satsuki, Kouma, Maids, Tohno, Nero
C: Wara, W.Len
Not sure if I'd keep V.Akiha at A or B. But due to the fact that she's a kind of instable character cause of her poor defense mod, I'll keep her a tier lower.
If Kohaku is in A tier it should be her Maids counterpart. :|
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Like lina said, Aoko's 3c isn't really good anti-air. However, it is good for clipping people who are starting to jump. So while it won't stuff jump-ins, it will punish people who like to jump after blockstrings, after blocking orbs, after backdashing, etc.
On another note, poor Warakia really has the shit piled on him. Remember, despite his crap tier reputation, Shonen using Warakia in SBO 2006 got pretty far. It could be that if more people actually bothered to use him at all, he'd be higher up in the tier list. Just off the top of my head, I'll list a few of his good points:
1) Top-tier dash. Although it doesn't have Ciel's ZOMG clash frames, it covers ground and keeps him low to the ground.
2) Range. Sure in MBAC zoning isn't as useful in general, but it never hurt. Warakia, I will argue, has more tools than average to avoid being rush down. His crappy initial HP puts him at a disadvantage early, but Warakia really shines in end-game when both sides have low HP and are just looking to get that last poke or combo in.
3) One of the best DP in the game. Warakia's 623c is a wonderful thing. It comes out fast and comes out straight above him. I've caught a lot of jump happy players just by doing dash --> 623C. Works really well against ring-spamming Warcs.
4) Decent oki. Granted, VSion's shadows make Warakia's look retarded. But as a whole, Warakia's shadows aren't terrible. Nero blocks people from jumping. Nanaya blocks people from backdashing. And Akiha is an overhead. A slow overhead, but an overhead nonetheless.
5) Overall, the basic gameplan of Warakia is to play keepaway until you can use his high mobility to grind out a combo. It's not the most top tier strategy, but Warakia can do it well. He has shadows, tornadoes, long normals, etc that keep the other player at a distance, a situation where Warakia does best. He can do respectable damage with meter and can grind down the clock if he wants to. His biggest flaw is that once the opponent gets close, he has a difficult time pushing back. But then again, a lot of characters don't deal with rush down well.
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Wara basically suffers from the same "huge hitbox" problem as chaos, but his moveset is for the most part inferior to chaos'. The only scary thing about him are his nero summon mixups and those are a lot easier to escape than many other mixups. He is a fair bit faster than chaos but his limited mixups and inferior airgame as well as his inferior zoning put him lower in tiers than chaos, who is already low-mid in almost everybody's tier list. that's the main reason he's so often tiered low. On top of that, Warakia is perhaps one of the most reliant on whiff cancelling characters in the game, right up there with Nanaya and Hisui, and his damage will plummet very early in a match.
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Sabator didnt you quit MB?
Miyako C << WUT
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Sabator didnt you quit MB?
Miyako C << WUT
:slowpoke:
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The list goes on. I seriously don't see how she sucks when you compare pros and cons.
3c is NOT good anti air. It just isn't. 623a is better. Now 3c is good at beating anticipated jumps and can be safe on block.
Points 2-12 (except for 6 obviously) require Aoko to have the advantage to matter. If she doesn't have the momentum, those points don't matter. Saying you have an awesome high/low setup when you have an orb on them in the corner DOESN'T MATTER if you can't get them into the corner with an orb on top of them. It can be very hard for this to actually happen. Like was stated, Aoko's normals aren't the best. She can have a bit of a hard time trying to get anything started with just her normals.
You also need to specify point 11. What exactly is her great tech punish setup?
Edit: I need to add that I don't believe she sucks but she's not godly either.
Yeah, I was meaning the early jump catch for 3C, but I didn't really know how to term that so I just put anti-air. But I mean in some instances I also seeing it have potential to trade hits for CH air to ground. As for getting the knockdown, her j.A seems to be pretty good air to air, although it does have short range, so does everyones. She can trade off CH with her 214 if they try to air to ground her. Aoko 123 sweep into 623A into the corner you can tech punish neutral, back and forward and if they dont tech it's like free damage. Also throwing, and if they don't do anything you can setup orb. I mean she doesn't have amazing setups like Miyako with 22 or Akiha with j.2C but she atleast has the option to force more damage. 236A is also a stable for mid range air jump or poke attempts that can possibly score CH's. It may be harder to get the knockdown only relying on her normals, but I dont think that factor alone would make her 'suck'. I see your point that having momentum is key in any fighting game but a lot of characters wouldn't be so great if points were invalidated just because they don't momentum. Like Akiha, with the exception of her quick 2C/2B and risky 4C to counter re-dashin pressures. Akiha without her tech options, flamepit setups, instant j.2C overhead would definitely not be top tier. kimjjo makes a nice point about the prioritiy thing, and is why I didn't put Aoko that up. Of course she'd probably have a bad matchup against someone like Ciel or perhaps Miyako, though I'd still fear a good Aoko over a good Miyako. I do agree with lina that it might be quite harder to get an orb setup in the corner because you'd literally have to combo them in the corner or somewhere close, but her midscreen orb setups aren't too, too bad either.
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Here's my 2 cents. I really don't know why Kohaku and Aoko were ranked pretty low, they have some ridiculous setups.
S: Sion, Len, Akiha, Ciel
A: Hisui, Mech-Hisui, Aoko, Kohaku, Miyako, Warc
B: V.Sion, V.Akiha, Nanaya, Arc, Satsuki, Kouma, Maids, Tohno, Nero
C: Wara, W.Len
Not sure if I'd keep V.Akiha at A or B. But due to the fact that she's a kind of instable character cause of her poor defense mod, I'll keep her a tier lower.
If Kohaku is in A tier it should be her Maids counterpart. :|
Oh right, usually when I see Kohaku, I just assume maids, lawlz.
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There's no chance in hell I'd ever fear a good Aoko over a good Miyako, and I play against the only Aoko on this side of the damn world that's worth playing against to begin with.
But that's just me. I still lose to this person almost everytime we play even when I play the 'better' character, but lord if he ever switched to Akiha or Miyako, ugh forget it.
:(
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I'm kind of surprised that Kohaku and Satsuki isn't ranked S-level after all the complaints I've heard of them being really cheap and annoying. It's too bad however that most of the characters I play as are mostly on B-level.
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Personal tiers:
S: Sion, Ciel, Akiha
A: Len, Maids, Warc, Hisui, Aoko, V akiha, V Sion, Arc, Kouma, Sacchin
B: M Hisui, Nanaya, Miyako, Kohaku, Tohno, Nero, Warakia
C: W Len
D: Neko's
EDIT: Lol if anyone is reading this far back, my new tiers:
S: Ciel, Sion, Akiha, Len
A: Warc, Miyako, M Hisui, Hisui, Kouma, V Akiha
B: V Sion, Maids, Aoko, Nanaya, Nero, Kohaku, Sacchin
C: Tohno, Arc, W Len, Warakia
D: Neko's
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Personal tiers:
S: Sion, Ciel, Akiha
A: Len, Maids, Warc, Hisui, Aoko, V akiha, V Sion, Arc, Kouma, Sacchin
B: Arc, M Hisui, Nanaya, Kohaku, Tohno, Nero, Warakia
C: W Len
D: Neko's
Miyako doesn't exist lawl :slowpoke:
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Personal tiers:
S: Sion, Ciel, Akiha
A: Len, Maids, Warc, Hisui, Aoko, V akiha, V Sion, Arc, Kouma, Sacchin
B: Arc, M Hisui, Nanaya, Kohaku, Tohno, Nero, Warakia
C: W Len
D: Neko's
Miyako doesn't exist lawl :slowpoke:
Neither does Nero :toot:
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Personal tiers:
S: Sion, Ciel, Akiha
A: Len, Maids, Warc, Hisui, Aoko, V akiha, V Sion, Arc, Kouma, Sacchin
B: Arc, M Hisui, Nanaya, Kohaku, Tohno, Nero, Warakia
C: W Len
D: Neko's
Miyako doesn't exist lawl :slowpoke:
Neither does Nero :toot:
Nigga you blind? :psyduck:
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Personal tiers:
S: Sion, Ciel, Akiha
A: Len, Maids, Warc, Hisui, Aoko, V akiha, V Sion, Arc, Kouma, Sacchin
B: Arc, M Hisui, Nanaya, Kohaku, Tohno, Nero, Warakia
C: W Len
D: Neko's
Miyako doesn't exist lawl :slowpoke:
:toot:
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Oh, no Miyako, huh?
Whatever. . . :toot: :toot: :toot:
I forgot. :(
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Personal tiers:
S: Sion, Ciel, Akiha
A: Len, Maids, Warc, Hisui, Aoko, V akiha, V Sion, Arc, Kouma, Sacchin
B: Arc, M Hisui, Nanaya, Kohaku, Tohno, Nero, Warakia
C: W Len
D: Neko's
Miyako doesn't exist lawl :slowpoke:
Neither does Nero :toot:
Nigga you blind? :psyduck:
IN MY LEFT EYE YES!
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i dunno why len keeps being put at S tier, either? Yeah, she has an awesome airgame and very high damage, but her specials other than 236 and cats are nothing to write home about and her ground normals are pretty average. I just don't see how people can rank her on par with characters like ciel and sion.
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Her priority is all kinds of bullshit. Not to mention her air moves being "awesome" being an understatement.
Usually that isn't enough to be put at S tier, but.....it's that bad. (besides, you don't need -that- much strength over the other characters to be put at S tier in this game compared to others because as said before the space between tiers is small)
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Black cats are enough to make her S tier. She wasn't considered as good in the past because she couldn't do them on command, she got them randomly.
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Not to mention her air moves being "awesome" being an understatement.
I know.
Holy fuck at her j.C, seriously.
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Len's jC is probably one of the more annoying jC's ive played (Havnt played much characters)
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Len's jC is probably one of the more annoying jC's ive played (Havnt played much characters)
Nrvnqsr has the worst one!
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Len's jC is probably one of the more annoying jC's ive played (Havnt played much characters)
Nrvnqsr has the worst one!
You can't crossup for free with it, though.
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Len's jC is probably one of the more annoying jC's ive played (Havnt played much characters)
Nrvnqsr has the worst one!
You can't crossup for free with it, though.
Nero's doesn't have as much priority either.
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Ugh, I hate the word priority in MB. Len's just has a better hitbox, unless you're trying to hit something 4 character lengths in front of you.
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Not to mention her air moves being "awesome" being an understatement.
I know.
Holy fuck at her j.C, seriously.
FUCK HER JUMP C!
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http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8547/tierlistmaybeud5.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8547/tierlistmaybeud5.jpg)
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http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8547/tierlistmaybeud5.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8547/tierlistmaybeud5.jpg)
I'm not sure how to read that tier list, but isn't it out of order? Warc is below Arc despite having a higher "score".
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This is a collection of the matchups based on opinions of the japanese mb players (multiple players for each character). The matchup numbers are added together in the second to last column, the higher the number, the better the character is overall. The final number is how far apart the total character score is from 100.
For some reason the people who play Sacchin think she is shit tier.
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This is a collection of the matchups based on opinions of the japanese mb players (multiple players for each character). The matchup numbers are added together in the second to last column, the higher the number, the better the character is overall. The final number is how far apart the total character score is from 100.
For some reason the people who play Sacchin think she is shit tier.
Why isn't it in order? Stupid japs.
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This is a collection of the matchups based on opinions of the japanese mb players (multiple players for each character). The matchup numbers are added together in the second to last column, the higher the number, the better the character is overall. The final number is how far apart the total character score is from 100.
For some reason the people who play Sacchin think she is shit tier.
Why isn't it in order? Stupid japs.
It is, good job. The chart is organized perfectly fine. Don't blame JPs for being dumb.
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Can someone translate that? Or is it in order of the character select screen or something?
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That chart is great, you get to see diff opinions from the top players regarding their characters and matchups.
I just find it funny how the guy who won SBO pretty much has the lowest score out there listed for Satsuki.
If we go by that list, Ciel is #1, Warc #2, Sion #3, Hisui #4, Len #5
Crazy.
Sled:
the order is:
Sion
V.Sion
Ciel
Arc
Warc
Akiha
V.Akiha
Hisui
Kohaku
Hisui/Kohaku
Mech Hisui
Shiki
Nanaya
Miyako
Nrvnqsr
Warakia
Satsuki
Len
Aoko
Kouma
White Len
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Thanks!
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Here's the player names romanized, from top to bottom
Sion-kubo, TTK
VSion-THER, Wagu
Ciel-niya, kazuyaki
Arc-You, SII
Warc-tsujisosu, Leo
Akiha-Yukinose, tei-ru
V. Akiha-Hato, Kou
Hisui-Jin, Mr. Protoprahe
Kohaku-Tashiro, fankyu-
Hisui&Kohaku-Messhii, Chigami
Mech Hisui-Nemutora
Shiki Tohno-Doremifadeguchi, Shiki
Nanaya-ILS, Taka
Miyako-Kanna, Mirumirumiruki-
Nero-Bubu, Luckystar, SAT
Wara-Donguri, RYU
Satsuki-Otoyume nyan, hagi, Denpa
Ren-Yoshino, Shuu
Aoko-Wizu, Oba, Gintoki, Jeffrey Manson@Ero, ShonenA
Kouma-Nidaime Soutou D, Kaimato
White Ren-Shiro, Wizu
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http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5539/tierlistmaybecopyvb9.jpg (http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5539/tierlistmaybecopyvb9.jpg)
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I HAS A TIER LIST!
Sourced from my penis.
S: Ciel, R.Arc
A: Len, Sion, M-Hisui, Miyako
B: Hisui, V.Akiha, Nanaya, Akiha
Aoko: Aoko
C: Wala Kouma Shiki Nero V.Sion KohaHisu
D: Arc Kohaku
E: W.Len Satsuki
Actually this is based on something, but I'm too lazy to finish it up and put up the full results. This is just preliminary results.
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Just goes to show how tiers don't have a huge significance in this game, which is a testament to the game design. You can win with any char (well, maybe not the Nekos).
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I'm so printing out this chart and taking it to WTX so I can
tier matchup whore the entire tournament. :teach:
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I'm so printing out this chart and taking it to WTX so I can tier matchup whore the entire tournament. :teach:
Lol, this'll be fun.
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I'm so printing out this chart and taking it to WTX so I can tier matchup whore the entire tournament. :teach:
Just stick with Ciel, Red Arc, or Sion only and you'll be a counter to everybody!
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Just stick with Ciel, Red Arc, or Sion only and you'll be a counter to everybody!
You're TOTALLY missing the point!
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what is aoko tier
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Aoko supposedly comes in at +-0 from whatever values Dippy calculated for everyone, making her the middle/neutral.
IMO the tier list works a lot better than the created match-up-tier-list from this chart that Dippy made for us, but because of what people see as a "tier list" and what it means, but even MORE so from how many discrepancies are present in this list, even though its coming from the opinions of top players. Just compare a character's row and a character's column and you'll see.
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what is aoko tier
GOD. Just practice and you'll see what I mean.
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what is aoko tier
GOD. Just practice and you'll see what I mean.
what?
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what is aoko tier
GOD. Just practice and you'll see what I mean.
what?
I don't get it either :-\
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You have a lot of time to set up orbs in training mode.
Her lack of damage also doesn't matter since the dummy regens to full anyway.
The dummy also never blocks her overheads, unless you set it to block them, in which case she has one of the combooffable grabs in the game.
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Hey, I'm working on a spreadsheet that recalculates averages for the matchups from the tier list. I'll post results soon.
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Here's the X(Wins) Averaged Tier List:
Ciel 14.75 2.44 S
Red Arc 12.25 2.02 S
Sion 8.75 1.45 A+
Ren 7.75 1.28 A
Hisui 6.75 1.12 A
M.Hisui 6.50 1.07 A-
V.Akiha 4.50 0.74 B+
Kouma 4.25 0.70 B+
Miyako 3.00 0.50 B
Akiha 2.00 0.33 B-
Warakia 1.50 0.25 B-
Aoko 1.50 0.25 B-
Nanaya 1.25 0.21 B-
Nero -0.50 -0.08 C+
T.Shiki -0.75 -0.12 C+
V.Sion -1.50 -0.25 C
HisuKoha -2.00 -0.33 C
Arcueid -3.00 -0.50 C-
Kohaku -4.50 -0.74 C-
W.Ren -13.00 -2.15 D+
Satsuki -15.50 -2.56 D
Y (Losses) Tier List: (REALLY weird results)
Ciel -11.77 -1.88 S
Red Arc -10.5 -1.68 S
Ren -9.12 -1.46 S-
Miyako -5.32 -0.85 A+
M.Hisui -4.1 -0.65 A
Sion -3.92 -0.63 A
Nanaya -3.08 -0.49 A-
Akiha -0.53 -0.08 B+
V.Akiha -0.42 -0.07 B+
Hisui 0.95 0.15 B
Aoko 1.33 0.21 B
V.Sion 2.38 0.38 B-
Nero 3.13 0.50 C+
HisuKoha 4.23 0.68 C+
Warakia 4.33 0.69 C+
T.Shiki 5.63 0.90 C-
Kouma 6.78 1.08 D+
Arcueid 7.42 1.18 D+
Kohaku 9.15 1.46 D
W.Ren 17.85 2.85 D-
Satsuki 19.55 3.12 D-
XY (Averaged) Tier List:
Ciel 26.52 2.15 S
Red Arc 22.75 1.85 S
Ren 16.87 1.37 A
Sion 12.67 1.03 A
M.Hisui 10.6 0.86 A-
Miyako 8.32 0.68 B+
Hisui 5.8 0.47 B
V.Akiha 4.92 0.40 B
Nanaya 4.33 0.35 B
Akiha 2.53 0.21 B
Aoko 0.17 0.01 B-
Kouma -2.53 -0.21 C+
Warakia -2.83 -0.23 C+
Nero -3.63 -0.29 C+
V.Sion -3.88 -0.32 C+
HisuKoha -6.23 -0.51 C
T.Shiki -6.38 -0.52 C
Arcueid -10.42 -0.85 C-
Kohaku -13.65 -1.11 D+
W.Ren -30.85 -2.51 D
Satsuki -35.05 -2.85 D-
PS: I filled in blanks with the best guess (i.e.: if one person was missing W.Len stat, then I filled it in with the other). Therefore, my numbers may be slightly different than Duppy's.
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Noooo Sacchin! :'( :'( :'(
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Isn't it sad, Sacchin?
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at Evo, I'd like to do round-robin matchups with the best players of characters to make our own, but it might take too long :V
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Lol damn. But man I play White Len and Kohaku. Thanks japan.
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at Evo, I'd like to do round-robin matchups with the best players of characters to make our own, but it might take too long :V
Nah arly, you should totally do it.
But you'd have to do it like....shit....out of 30 at least to get good numbers. And that's really tiring.
Other option could be to just ask each one of those players like this magazine did :V
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I suppose having the two top players of each character doing a FT5 against each other character might suffice. Would take a really long time though.
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It'd only work with Kijea/Nerina level players though. Unless we actually really don't care about absolute tiers and just want "here's where the US is with these charas".
But then results are incredibly skewed. Nero is top tier (arly :V). No good aokos (zar) to represent, no good arcs (xaq?), no good etc etc etc.
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lina is correct
also this list looks more accurate, people kept insisting Ciel wasn't top and I was like you're full of shit okay
Ren not being S makes sense, and I can agree with her being good but not the best
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I suppose having the two top players of each character doing a FT5 against each other character might suffice. Would take a really long time though.
That judges the players, not the characters.
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You'd need to have great players of each character who were all generally at the same skill level.
It really is better to just theory fight and ask ;p
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I don't agree with any of the lists arlieth posted.(as a tier list, among other things)
Also if you check the matchup chart, the numbers don't always add up on both sides. The Koumas say that he has advantage on W.Len and the W.Lens say that she has advantage on Kouma, for example. The chart is just some opinions, and some of them need to get some sense knocked into them.
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Zaelar, that's because you think fullscreen supers are wakeups. Also, we already knew about the discrepancies.
Chart "X" is the scoring that's added up when you move horizontally along a row for a character (Row 1 is Ciel, so add up her matches along there until you hit the end), AVERAGED FROM EACH PLAYER. For example, Kubo's score is averaged with the other Sion player's score for "Sion X" score.
Chart "Y" is the scoring added up when you go VERTICALLY down a column for the versus matchups. Theoretically they should be the EXACT INVERSE of Chart "X" results (a 7:3 for Sion vs Satsuki means 7 for Sion going right and 3 for Satsuki going down). However, this doesn't apply to this chart! This is because it's basically a survey of ranked players that don't cross-reference each other's answers.
Chart "XY" is the average scores of each player for a character. It combines the average X character score with the Y score to make a chart that is consistent when cross-referenced. I'll post a scan of it shortly.
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You'd need to have great players of each character who were all generally at the same skill level.
It really is better to just theory fight and ask ;p
This still doesn't work because take Arly, he doesn't know Nero vs say Aquiha very well. He's never had to fight a good Aquiha. Maybe in the ideal good player vs good player situation, the match is dead even. But Arly thinks it's a 10:0 because he's never had a problem with her. Is he wrong? No, not in his experience and that's all we're asking.
The problem with this is that "great players" of each character almost 100% will not have played "great players" of every other character. You even saw this in the Japanese chart where some people didn't answer how they did vs WRen. They honestly didn't know and so that space was blank. The US matchup list will be mostly blank if people want to be super honest about their experiences.
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You have a lot of time to set up orbs in training mode.
Her lack of damage also doesn't matter since the dummy regens to full anyway.
The dummy also never blocks her overheads, unless you set it to block them, in which case she has one of the combooffable grabs in the game.
Since when does practicing mean training mode, or even AI? Way to completely miss the point.
THE POINT
YOUR HEAD
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x+y=xy
The first is based on the average opinions, of for the most part two people, of how good a character is vs every other character. Second is based on other people's opinions on how their character does against the character, and the third is the average of that. Even an idiot would know thats not how you make a (good) tier list. You'll likely get something not too far off if the people know what their talking about though.
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Even an idiot, huh? :slowpoke:
Considering that the X+Y is really an averaging of usually two players per character along with cross-references, I think it's far more accurate than anything else we can come up with. When doing statistics, the more samples that you acquire brings you closer to the actual averages that you're looking for, and the XY list is better than whatever we can come up with in America (due to our lack of specialist players) or is practical to do in Japan (because this would require [20 characters * 2 players each] * [20 characters * 2 players each because it's round robin] - 40 matchups [you can't play against yourself] * 20 matches each (you need 20 matches to get ratings such as 5.5:4.5 since 10 matches would only get you whole numbers) = a rough estimate of 31200 matches played to get ideal numbers.
YA RLY THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN :psyduck:
Also, as mentioned before, this mostly applies to top-tier play. You could introduce an error range of 0.2 in the last column and your results can shift wildly. The data I compiled (and duppy too I believe) won't make this very hard at all.
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TLDR version: Tier lists are just guesses due to humans being incapable. Even top players don't agree(proven by the chart).
You could introduce an error range of 0.2 in the last column and your results can shift wildly. The data I compiled (and duppy too I believe) won't make this very hard at all.
This is one of the reasons why I say this isn't how you go about making an accurate tier list. You're basically averaging a small sampling of mildly educated guesses. You're also comparing them in ways they weren't meant to be compared.
If you want a matchup chart based on this, start by taking every match up and averaging their scores and making an actual 10 point chart based off the averages. For example, Sion vs VSion, start with the averages given, 5.75:4.75. Add them and you get 10.50, thats 5% too many points. Keeping them in the same ratio but adding to 10 you get 5.47619:4.52381, rounded to 5 decimals. Do that for everyone and you have a matchup chart that adds to 10. Lastly, for the KoHi column, assuming the different values are for who is on point, you'd have to take the lower of the two since someone using KoHi to their best potential will be using the better of the two on point.
While matchup charts are good information to have they aren't good ways to determine tier lists. They usually get close, but by no means are the end. For example, in a ggxx(#r?, not important) chart, Slayer was listed as the best, and Eddie second best. Slayer had really big advantages against crappy characters, but did have a 4 or two in there. Eddie had nothing below a 5, but since he didn't have as good matchups against the crappy characters he was ranked lower. I'm not saying this list was wrong, I'm just saying it rewards things disproportionately than I feel is important. For example I feel moving from a 4 to a 5 is a lot better than from a 7 to an 8, while this system rewards them equally.
I doubt any human or group of humans is capable of reliably accurately making a tier list unless it is glaringly obvious, but even with something seemingly obvious I wouldn't put it past humans to miss something. It's all based on opinions, it's just there are different opinions(even among the best, as proven by the chart), and different ways to manage those opinions(as proven by this thread). You can do whatever you want with the numbers on that chart, but I'm not going to agree with it as a way to determine a tier list no matter what you do with them since I disagree with the opinions on the chart in the first place. You might coincidentally come up with a list I agree with, but I still won't be agreeing with your methods. And if you bring up my wake-up preferences again I'll counter with your shield preferences and counter-hit with the top players in the chart obviously don't agree with the chart outside of their own row.
You can't use a huge round robin to come up with a tier list. It might show about how well the best with each character are doing, but a tier list is about realistic potential. Theres also upsets to worry about.
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We've already discussed how the charts don't match up at all between X/Y(in otherwords, how the Japanese players don't agree with each other's lists), which is why the scores were averaged out in the first place. It is, however, better than nothing, and also sheds some light on the accumulated experiences that these top players possess. You can criticize the tier list all you want, but you haven't brought up an alternative tier list yourself, or made an effort to improve the tier list by averaging out scores for a more consistent result. This ignores the countless hours of effort put into compiling the list in the first place, not to mention the several hours that I took to average the scores out so that people have a better perspective on matchups. Tiers are never rock-solid rules (more like works in progress) and only apply to character potential, not the player, but are inevitable in any game that doesn't have perfectly balanced characters like Red and White Karate Master.
Hey, I'll gladly admit that I'm an idiot for shielding so much in a game that penalizes your damage by at least 40% for getting it right and has 20f+ penalty for missing. The whole reason I'm making fun of your wakeup EX Hiero/7th Heaven with Ciel is that you're disagreeing with a tier list that puts your character at the top, which puts your credibility at a tenuous position at best. But I'll stop poking fun at it.
If you want to reward matchups proportionally, then I'd suggest measuring Standard Deviations from the Mean for the scores. I was thinking about working on something like that but I might as well now since I've got statistics software burning a hole in my hard drive. I'm still in the process of making a finalized tier list from this data that actually matches up consistently between VS scores.
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Edit: Bad wording. I'm basically saying you're using information that can't be relied on, although it's the closest thing we have to reliable information. I'm not trying to discredit you or dippy's work, but it shouldn't be taken as an accurate tier list.
The whole reason I'm making fun of your wakeup EX Hiero/7th Heaven with Ciel is that you're disagreeing with a tier list that puts your character at the top, which puts your credibility at a tenuous position at best.
So anyone who disagrees with a tier list that has their character at top has their "credibility at at tenuous position at best"? If you disagree with a tier list that goes nero nekos w.len ... that would apply to you? I've said Ciel isn't the best, but she is among the best. Even if I thought she was the best, I would still disagree with ciel nekos w.len. As I said, I won't agree with any tier list that comes from the chart unless it's coincidental. This is because I don't agree with the chart being 100% correct.
I question anyone's sanity that will treat that chart as true just because it's based on top players. Accepting it as a possibility is fine, but if you care about making an accurate tier list you should be doing whatever you can to form your own opinion and not relying on someone else's. If you just want a fast estimate and don't want to do a lot of work, then taking other people's opinions and averaging them out is fine, but don't pass it off as accurate. This wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but I'm betting theres some top player cock sucking lurkers around.
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I have to deal with him on a weekly basis.
D:
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Accepting it as a possibility is fine, but if you care about making an accurate tier list you should be doing whatever you can to form your own opinion and not relying on someone else's. If you just want a fast estimate and don't want to do a lot of work, then taking other people's opinions and averaging them out is fine, but don't pass it off as accurate.
Honestly, I would trust the survey of a sample of Japan's top players far more than the full opinion of any one individual here. It may be a good mental exercise, but that is about it. However, the aggregate of every user on this forum would almost certainly be more accurate (and no, not just self-assigned 'top players'. Every goddamn user) than that list from Arcadia, no matter how wrong each individual person was.
The fact that you even think that people would be taking this simple statistical analysis as gospel shows how little you understand about the application of such statistics. The error bars on these data sets are pretty fucking wide; I think people could give reasonable arguments to move a single data point either up or down quite a bit.... which is exactly the problem.
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I think you underestimate human stupidity.
Just so I'm clear, I'm talking about people misinterpreting/misusing the statistics. I'm sure someone went, 'japanese top players + averaged out by arlieth = good tier list' in their head.
Just so I'm even clearer, I'm not calling people that don't understand the statistics stupid, I'm calling people that don't understand them but pretend they do stupid. Luckily they haven't been posting. Unfortunately it makes me look dumb for posting this T.T
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Anytime you hear someone comment on how a match was effected by tier, its either by someone being sarcastic/joking to some degree or they're literally a newbie to the game. Lighten up.
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Every match is affected by tiers. Complaining about it is scrubby. You had the same chance to pick a better tiered character as your opponent.
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It takes a hell of a lot more effort to squeeze out wins with one of the Necos than with one of the Shikis. This much we know.
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Well, tiers do matter in fighting games. But if I had the same chance to pick a better tiered character as my opponent, then doesn't that mean there has to be a 'good tier list' to reference in the first place? :V
But wait, we can't trust a tier list based upon the most experienced players in the WORLD! :psyduck:
Oh wait I have to make my own tier list based upon my own opinions of the characters! :psyduck:
Shoryuken.com :psyduck:
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Sweetie, you're being contrary. :prinny:
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Well, tiers do matter in fighting games. But if I had the same chance to pick a better tiered character as my opponent, then doesn't that mean there has to be a 'good tier list' to reference in the first place? :V
Nope. Doesn't have to be a list somewhere for you to figure out Sion is a good character. There is one requirement for being able to pick a better character than your opponent, they can't be using that character because then you would have to settle on picking the same tier. Pretty obvious, but it's something that wasn't brought up. I imagine everyone isn't so retarded they couldn't have figured that out on their own, but you did just ask if you need a good tier list for it to be possible to pick the best character in any game.
If you want to pick the best character, you're going to pick who you think the best character is. Whether you are right or wrong is a different story. And we get back to tier lists, which are just someone's guesses on the matter.
But wait, we can't trust a tier list based upon the most experienced players in the WORLD! :psyduck:
You can put your trust wherever you want. If you really care about something being true or not, for whatever reason, I doubt you're going to trust someone else no matter who it is. You'll likely get some opinions to look into, and maybe even believe them to be true, but you'll want to confirm it yourself. You might believe something as true and go with it until you find out it isn't true if it doesn't affect you, or your just don't care enough to put in the effort, or maybe you just aren't capable of proving it.(Hi when the world was flat)
If you're buying a computer online(or some parts for building your own), you'd probably believe that everything works until you try to turn it on and it doesn't. Best way to figure out if it works? Buy it and try it out yourself. As I said, you can trust whoever you want, but if you're ordering 3 computers for a tournament, if you get the chance to are you going to try them yourself to make sure they work or are you just going to keep them in the boxes until it's time to start the tournament? Same with tier lists, only it isn't as important to have them be completely accurate. Run MB at 90% speed? not cutting it. 90% accurate tier list? not causing much harm.
Ninja edit: More on the topic at hand, you'd obviously trust a top player over a scrub's opinion on tiers, but taking a top player's opinion as true just for that reason is moronic.
Oh wait I have to make my own tier list based upon my own opinions of the characters! :psyduck:
Ever think something is better than something else? Congratulations you just made a tier list based on your own opinions of something. If you see a tier list and think something is wrong, congratulations you have your own opinions!
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Tier lists are nothing more than opinion. If you agree with a tier list it simply means that tier list matches your own personal one. There is no such thing as a "definitive" tier list. hth
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I question anyone's sanity that will treat that chart as true just because it's based on top players.
Zaelar: You haven't mentioned taking into account the player's actual skill level when taking tier lists into account. Matchup charts, from which tier lists are derived from, are supposed to represent the estimated % matchup rate that two characters played at their maximum potential can achieve. You're nowhere close to that, since you're taking your own opinions and perceptions to make your own 'tier list' when you only have limited experience with matchups and skill compared to Japanese players. Unlike you, I'm willing to accept that someone (or in this case, 45 of the best players in the world) is better at the game than I am.
Also, nobody's said that this is a 'true' (which implies 100% accurate) tier list (I don't know why you keep mentioning 'true'), but several of us do consider it the most accurate tier list currently available. You've got several dozen samples from top players who've put hundreds of hours into the game, and a compiled averaging of said samples. Also, the 3rd Strike tier lists were compiled from matchup charts (just like this one) and is generally accepted as accurate. For a matchup to be 100% impossible for a character would mean a 10:0 matchup ratio, which never happens. Yet you haven't offered any sort of tier listing for comparison for debate.
Then again,
I doubt any human or group of humans is capable of reliably accurately making a tier list unless it is glaringly obvious
I guess I'm wasting my time here.
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itt: science through math :teach:
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Attached PDF of the new accurately cross-referenced chart. All values are means which were compiled from the sample sources of players for each character.
By the way, if someone can somehow get this on the wiki, that'd be nice. :prinny: Tell me if you need an Excel file to paste the table from.
-The MB Chart is is corrected and averaged from Tougeki Damashii data.
-The Ordered version has all the characters sorted by tier.
-The MB Chart.xlsx file requires Excel 2007 to view. The chart uses some advanced features such as conditional gradient formatting (that's how I got all them pretty colorz). Do not download unless you know Excel, because it can be CONFUSING AS HELL.
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hey according to this tier list warakia is not bottom tier
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Wait, is this list based on the newest Tougeki Damashii (vol 8 )? Looks kind of familiar, but if it is, it's not character rankings, it's some other ranking that's in kanji that I can't read :<
If it's not, then nevermind :blah:
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It's based on it, yeah. All the information was averaged out because the versus data wasn't matching up with each other.
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I'm up for tossing this up on the wiki. I was looking for something to do anyway.
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By the way, for each character, it might be good to put a listing of their matchups in order from Best to Worst.
For example: Kouma
5.75 Arcueid
5.63 Sion
5.42 Satsuki
5.38 Warakia
5.38 Kohaku
5.25 HisuKoha
4.88 Ciel
4.88 M.Hisui
4.88 Nanaya
4.88 Akiha
4.88 W.Ren <- WOW wtf :V
4.78 Aoko
4.75 Red Arc
4.75 Hisui
4.63 Ren
4.63 Miyako
4.63 V.Akiha
4.63 V.Sion
4.50 T.Shiki
4.29 Nero <-hehehe
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What's the exact translation on the magazine ranking? I can only read something about "up" haha.
yes W.Ren ... W.Ren OCV at shakuji also!!! :slowpoke:
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I thought kouma had a comparitively easy time VS wlen since she has to IAD after a 236{A}. Kouma is one of the few characters that can bunker cancel it without trading it getting punished or anything. She gets to run down her 623 mixup game all day VS most other characters.
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(this is sort of off topic)
236[A] is not good for him at all. It's very hard for him to get out against a good W.Len player, and you're bunker cancelling a projectile so you're bound to get your ass beat for doing that. Throw in that W.Len can simply just keep her assault aerial while Kouma is in there to prevent any bara'd EX Dunks and it becomes hard for him because a lot of his escapes get shut down.
You have to keep in mind that this is at each character's full known potential. For example, Kouma is 4.63 vs. V.Sion. Normally a V.Sion player wouldn't be that much of a problem for him....at an American level of play. Because V.Sion isn't great at escaping either, she usually has to just block out whatever gets thrown out at her. What does Kouma, a grappler, want you to do? He wants you to block. However at a japanese level of play, critical stuff like this is taken into account and both characters are playing according to the matchup, and one of them is getting more bang for their buck in doing so.
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What does Shiki Tohno have over Len and V. Akiha? And.. Kouma?
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His sweep is longer than Kim Kaphwan's. Like a true Korean.
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im going to say something said alot before miyako S tier wtf. Sure miyako is fast and has gay combos but after playing like 4-5 diff miyako players online where that 4 frames of lag really does make her S tier, predicting her attacks isn't really that bad, and many of her attacks if you predict you can punish pretty hard, if you sat in pratice mode and found out what wins. But basically every char can do really powerful combos, once in corner.
and plus wlen low tier try playing as her she is damn hard, and has some massive problems against chars like Ciel.
don't forget you can combo off of her regular grab too. The only rape about wlen is that once she starts raping you its hard to get out of it cause her moves have sick overide and she can do some pretty interesting cancels, and combos of her pretty much all of her EXs
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Can anyone explain how they arrived at these numbers? It's pretty interesting to see how they managed to assign a numerical value to specific match ups.
This should be how tiers in fighters should be determined. Pretty slick.
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Can anyone explain how they arrived at these numbers? It's pretty interesting to see how they managed to assign a numerical value to specific match ups.
This should be how tiers in fighters should be determined. Pretty slick.
People guessed based on their experience, and no.
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Can anyone explain how they arrived at these numbers? It's pretty interesting to see how they managed to assign a numerical value to specific match ups.
This should be how tiers in fighters should be determined. Pretty slick.
People guessed based on their experience, and no.
Wow, that's a great explanation.
What I was asking for the methodology. Anyone have the survey form they used? Formula for computing match ups? etc?
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It's rare for a match up to go beyond 3-7 and since you almost always go with .5 values, you're not left with that many choices.
You go something like:
5 for neutral
5.5 for slightly advantageous
6 for advantageous
6.5 for very advantageous
7 for fairly one sided
8+ shit is broken
This hardly requires any maths.
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So...
1. Select top japanese players for each character take a survey.
2. They're asked to rate individual character match ups based on their character. So a Sion player would rate his Sion against the rest of the cast.
3. Value assigned range from 1 - 10.
4. Numbers are averaged and collated.
Reason why I want to know is I wanted to repeat the process for another fighter where tiers are more of an issue due to vast counterpicking.
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Im pretty sure they just take the averages win and losses per round of all major tournies, by char thats the most effective way to do it, and its pretty accurate, but in this game there are very few bad matchups.
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You can download this .xlsx file (http://www.meltybread.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,26/action,dlattach/topic,1170.0/attach,1680/)to see the compiled/crunched numbers. It requires either OpenOffice or Excel 2007 to view, though.
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This game actually has quite a few uneven matchups, but they don't get as hopeless as matchups in some other fighting games do. Like Makoto vs Akuma/Remy in 3s. One grab when she has meter is pretty much loss of round, which is far worse than any MB matchup.
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So how long will it be until Sion goes down a tier? Kubo quit and I haven't even seen a recent video of Sion winning a match or something in a long time now.
I mean, a character having potential doesn't really say anything when there's not that many good players who use her.
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My guess is, they're going by her mechanics.
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how come sacchin is so low I have never seen a final 8 without a sacchin player.
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how come sacchin is so low I have never seen a final 8 without a sacchin player.
Cause Tier lists in MBAC don't make a very big difference in the end, the player does.
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Truest words ever spoken..Rayza
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Cause Tier lists in MBAC don't make a very big difference in the end, the player does.
Except when talking about the Necos. But yeah, true words.
edit: before you start flaming me, show me some high level tournament results with high-placing Necos. Only then will I consider retracting my statement.
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Cause Tier lists in MBAC don't make a very big difference in the end, the player does.
Except when talking about the Necos. But yeah, true words.
edit: before you start flaming me, show me some high level tournament results with high-placing Necos. Only then will I consider retracting my statement.
I think it's more of the lack of neco players due to their lack of appeal vs the rest of the cast. I recall seeing some 2 v 2 match vids not so long ago, and this neko arc chaos player was winning a whole lot, beating a lot of the regular characters.
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updated the first post.
congrats on nero moving up an entire tier and vakiha moving down almost an entire tier (maybe if her throw was more threatening it wouldn't have happened), and ciel finally taking her bullshit all the way to the top.
not too much else happened. i'm guessing the japanese found nero combos that actually do fair damage though (and i'm not exactly sure how much damage the new 2[c] combos do but i know they are an improvement)
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More like there are 9001 good Nero players and one good V Akiha. Shit is :/.
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postan mah tier list itt fuck the haters
S) Ciel/Warc/Akiha/Miyako/Satsuki/Len
A) Sion/Vakiha/Vsion/Kouma/Mhisui/Hisui/Nero
B) Arcueid/Maids/Wlen/Nanaya/Tohno/Aoko
C) Warachia/Kohaku
D) Random Select
E) Neco-Arc
F) Neco-Chaos
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Lmao
Randomselect is low-tier.XD
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YEAH ME TOO FUXYAHATORZ
S: Sion/Ciel/Akiha/Miyako/Mhisui
A: Aoko/Len/Nanaya/Kouma/Warc/Miyako/Hisui
B: Vakiha/Vsion/Tohno/Wlen
C: Arcueid/Satsuki
D: Warachia/Kohaku/Nero
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YEAH ME TOO FUXYAHATORZ
S: Sion/Ciel/Akiha/Miyako/Mhisui
A: Aoko/Len/Nanaya/Kouma/Warc/Miyako/Hisui
B: Vakiha/Vsion/Tohno/Wlen
C: Arcueid/Satsuki
D: Warachia/Kohaku/Nero
Lol
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Here is my tier list.
S+++: Len's cat minions
S: Neko Arc Chaos
A: Neko Arc
B: Chaos deer
C: W.Len
D: everyone else
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Here is my tier list.
S+++: Len's cat minions
S: Neko Arc Chaos
A: Neko Arc
B: Chaos deer
C: W.Len
D: everyone else
deer is too low
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Here is my tier list.
S+++: Len's cat minions
S: Neko Arc Chaos
A: Neko Arc
B: Chaos deer
C: W.Len
D: everyone else
deer is too low
psssh non-believer.
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Wuts this Tier List based on...how many strike you can put in in one combo? Power in a combo? Quickness? Resistance from taking a hit???
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Wuts this Tier List based on...how many strike you can put in in one combo? Power in a combo? Quickness? Resistance from taking a hit???
mine is based on awesomeness+gayness+cuteness/2
the official one is based on match ups or something dumb like that.
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tch, matchups, then that sux... it can be anyone if they set there goal to it...all the girls would be top tier imo if it was related to cuteness, lol, k wutever went overboard. I'll start on mine in a few days. ::)
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[21:27] <sekuwrite> these are agreed upon by like
[21:27] <sekuwrite> the entire mbac bbs
S: Ciel
sekuhara: S:Ciel
(i.e. some popular japan bbs)
its about focking time u kids found the light...
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Man Ciel is LOW-Tier...You just gotta believe in the power of MB.
Grasp the holy book of Melty Blood.
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Stop hanging around the tier list section :V Thought were better than that :slowpoke:
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Stop hanging around the tier list section :V Thought were better than that :slowpoke:
Go to animesuki :V
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Slightly tangential question - Im just wondering how dominant are the tiers in this game? Do low tiers have no chance or is it fairly balanced?
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It's very balanced. In AC there are about 4 characters, 2 of them joke characters, that you don't see winning often. In AA it seems a little worse but still pretty much every character has at least one mode that can compete. It's still too early to definitively tell though, and there could still be a version b/c/d on the way which could change things.