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Author Topic: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.  (Read 17906 times)

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Offline Qaenyin

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2007, 03:23:35 PM »
*sighs* Try to keep this a reasonably clean debate please.  This isn't a popularity contest.  :/

And I'm pretty sure Kryo meant that theres little difference between high level players of the same character in guilty gear, not little difference between character.  Which, of course, I'm not sure I agree with, but again that's something for another thread.

Offline S-Blade

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2007, 03:30:05 PM »
I'm half agreeing half disagreeing here.

Mizuki has a very valid point. But the reasons for why what he stated is happening is probably just because the scene is so small :V

Once the scene gets bigger, people will start to realize they need to be different from everyone else who plays their character unless they wanna get their ass handed to them by noname players. It's just that there aren't enough people playing every character (or at least the ones you mentioned) for everyone serious with the game to be able to just know how to play against them like that. But right now the only person I can clearly see has a completely unique playstyle while still being very good instead of shitty mcshit is Arly. Things that you thought wouldn't work because you simply aren't maximizing damage or anything like that.....get unused, and people expect them a whole lot less. What Mizuki is looking for is five more players who can mindfuck you as bad as Arly does, and in the same way. That's an indication that the scene is evolving.

And its no coincidence that those of us who haven't watched and learned from japanese videos happen to play completely differently. Does that mean we're worse? No. Even though we probably are, you can't assume we are from just that.
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Offline thebrassthief

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2007, 03:49:24 PM »
Quote
Usually I don't have a problem with this (I play CvS2) but a lot of the combos/tactics being used are the same, boring ones I've seen for years in older match videos. In my NorCal vs SoCal commentary at WT7 I made a comment when I had the mic that "I've seen this match before, haven't I?" was actually just a joke, but since then I actually thought, "Wait, this is true!" Alot of people use the same character the same way which makes it seem boring an monotonous. Now if people whored out those characters, but had a distinct style of playing them I wouldn't be making this post. At West Toast 7, I played 3 Akihas, by the end of the tourney and a time to sit and rest and think, I know how to win against any Akiha in the US. Also watching the people play at the finals, and how they play I know how to counter alot of these common characters (Knowing does not equal executing against them, fyi).

Agree 100 fucking percent. Playing casual MBAC at a tourny I went to and NetPlay, it has gotten to me that the same singular combo is used for every Wallachia, Akiha. It is one reason I find myself hating MBAC every time I am done with a round if NetPlay. When I had no idea how to play and I introduced a local game store to MBAC, I had a lot better time watching people learn characters and vary how they played then what I see online.

Quote
"But it works!"
Indeed it does! Keep on using the same combos again and see how long this game will live for. Keep on using the same tactics for a certain character, the game won't be able to develop.

Werd. Another thin that bugs me about the way MBAC plays.
Quote
"How can we take you seriously Mizuki, you fucking suck."

I suck too but I am seeing it as well so, proof.
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Offline Hd - phnz - !!!

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2007, 04:05:16 PM »
My opinion:

1. People still think there are ways to fine-tune the current style they're working with.
2. Not too many people are being rewarded for creativity yet.
3. There aren't enough new ideas being thrown around. Let's face it, there are only a few innovators in a given scene and everyone else is either copying or trying to improve the old ideas.
4. There aren't really enough people to gauge character strength. We only have 20-30 people playing in a given tournament. Half a Nanaya at WT7 but at Evo there were like...500. We had two Hisuis, two Miyakos, a Mech-Hisui and a Sion at WT7. What if somewhere in Alaska there was a 10-man group of Neco-Arc players? Numbers are inconclusive at this point. At any tournament between now and the time US Melty Blood hits critical mass a bunch of Satsukis can come out of nowhere and I'll be worst out of 30 instead of worst out of 6-8.

Then again, I play simulation games. My fighting game experience is playing shit tier and gluing my fingers to the fierce button so I can spam my second slowest move. Instead of zoning and playing good defense like most people I butt-hump my opponent until they get stunned. Needless to say, I'm a relatively mediocre player in 3s and Melbooty.

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2007, 04:11:55 PM »
You know now that I look back at it, I don't understand what you're complaining about at all Miz.

And I play CvS2 as well (and I'm better then you to boot  :V), but how are doing the same combos and sets up boring? Really, who said you had to be entertained when watching other people to begin with? As a White Len player, would you want to be using the inferior tools of your character? Would you want to utilize a weak tactic? Something that leaves you at a disadvantage? No, of course not.

You should be use to this by now. If you can beat these Akiha's, it's only because you might have seen a repeating pattern in their rushdown / defense / playstyle to exploit, because them doing the same combos should be expected. I would hope people would do what works best in a situation (ie bnb into airthrow), because you are sitting down and playing someone in hopes that you'll win, right?

And people have their own playstyle and 'originality' once they're finally comfortable with their character. Zaelar's Ciel and H-F Blade's Ciel play vastly different from one another. B.B Hood's Arc and Xaq's Arc play vastly different from one another. And so on and so forth.

Hell, all I know is that I'm still a novice Hisui, but the Japanese STILL continue to evolve with her, there's new shit everytime I check out a vid. Get inspired, take notes, work on your own shit before worrying about what everyone else is doing.

:\
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 04:15:08 PM by Master Chibi »
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Offline Psylocke

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2007, 04:26:59 PM »
Quote
Usually I don't have a problem with this (I play CvS2) but a lot of the combos/tactics being used are the same, boring ones I've seen for years in older match videos. In my NorCal vs SoCal commentary at WT7 I made a comment when I had the mic that "I've seen this match before, haven't I?" was actually just a joke, but since then I actually thought, "Wait, this is true!" Alot of people use the same character the same way which makes it seem boring an monotonous. Now if people whored out those characters, but had a distinct style of playing them I wouldn't be making this post. At West Toast 7, I played 3 Akihas, by the end of the tourney and a time to sit and rest and think, I know how to win against any Akiha in the US. Also watching the people play at the finals, and how they play I know how to counter alot of these common characters (Knowing does not equal executing against them, fyi).

Agree 100 fucking percent. Playing casual MBAC at a tourny I went to and NetPlay, it has gotten to me that the same singular combo is used for every Wallachia, Akiha. It is one reason I find myself hating MBAC every time I am done with a round if NetPlay. When I had no idea how to play and I introduced a local game store to MBAC, I had a lot better time watching people learn characters and vary how they played then what I see online.

Quote
"But it works!"
Indeed it does! Keep on using the same combos again and see how long this game will live for. Keep on using the same tactics for a certain character, the game won't be able to develop.

Werd. Another thin that bugs me about the way MBAC plays.
Quote
"How can we take you seriously Mizuki, you fucking suck."

I suck too but I am seeing it as well so, proof.

Regarding the combos issues, they are called bread and butters(BNB) for a reason.  Most combos that people use have a balance between 1.maximizing damage and 2.setting up the best oki option(usually a knockdown, like an airthrow).  Considering how long the game has been out, most of the best and practical combos have already been explored, so what reason is there to use a different(and most likely inferior) combo?  The only reason I can think of is if the standard combo is somewhat difficult and you don't have the execution required to constantly pull it off, which is acceptable.  But combos in Melty are really easy for the most part anyway, so this shouldn't be an issue for most people.  At the high end level of play in this game, everyone is expected to hit their combos 100% of the time, so combos really don't matter, it's the strategies that are employed that do.

As for using the same tactics, what reason is there to not use the same tactic repeatedly if it's a dominating one?  Although I personally think that everyone should always consider counters to their own strategies and find counters to those, if you are having a lot of success with a certain strategy, there really is no reason to stop doing it.  At this point, it becomes up to your opponents to figure out a way to counter whatever it is you're doing, and that is when the real game begins, because then you have to counter that, and it goes back and forth.  That is how a game develops, so just give it some time.

Melty's been out for a long time, but it's only until recently that areas in the US other than NY really played this game seriously.  If you really think that everyone is playing the same styles, it is probably because everyone is trying to mimic their favorite Japanese player of their character(I'm guilty of this).  People will definitely develop their own styles over time.
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Offline mizuki

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2007, 09:44:42 PM »
Chibi: You have a point. I play CvS2, guilty of the crouching fierce syndrome. Maybe it's just a hidden inborn feeling of superiority towards Capcom games(lol dsp j/k), who knows. Maybe it's just that there's the groove variety and huge character cast, I may never know.

Also just something to clear up. This isn't just based off of WT. It's just been something on my mind for a bit.
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Offline Qaenyin

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2007, 10:03:42 PM »
Obviously, the root of the problem is that people are using characters with no room for development! So I say screw you all!

Everyone should switch to maining Necos and White Len!

Offline DivineKnightX

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2007, 10:50:33 PM »
I agree with some of the stuffs aforementioned. Especially concerning the lack of players in areas. I live in Detroit, so there arent many people who play where I am, I know twoa dn one who abandoned ship for CS2, the other plays Kouma....And Ive beaten him enough times, that im actually looking for more players. I also see that people will keep doing the same things, as long as they see that what they are doing is effective agains tthe type of enemy they are up against. Why would a guy who lives in the desert learn how to fish? Or why would a guy who live sby the ocean learn water conservation skills? Its the same difference to me. When people start figuring out how to not get killed by the same stuff...the "Predators" will have to develope new ways to capture their prey.

Offline thebrassthief

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2007, 11:09:04 PM »
Regarding the combos issues, they are called bread and butters(BNB) for a reason.  Most combos that people use have a balance between 1.maximizing damage and 2.setting up the best oki option(usually a knockdown, like an airthrow).  Considering how long the game has been out, most of the best and practical combos have already been explored, so what reason is there to use a different(and most likely inferior) combo?  The only reason I can think of is if the standard combo is somewhat difficult and you don't have the execution required to constantly pull it off, which is acceptable.  But combos in Melty are really easy for the most part anyway, so this shouldn't be an issue for most people.  At the high end level of play in this game, everyone is expected to hit their combos 100% of the time, so combos really don't matter, it's the strategies that are employed that do.

As for using the same tactics, what reason is there to not use the same tactic repeatedly if it's a dominating one?  Although I personally think that everyone should always consider counters to their own strategies and find counters to those, if you are having a lot of success with a certain strategy, there really is no reason to stop doing it.  At this point, it becomes up to your opponents to figure out a way to counter whatever it is you're doing, and that is when the real game begins, because then you have to counter that, and it goes back and forth.  That is how a game develops, so just give it some time.

Melty's been out for a long time, but it's only until recently that areas in the US other than NY really played this game seriously.  If you really think that everyone is playing the same styles, it is probably because everyone is trying to mimic their favorite Japanese player of their character(I'm guilty of this).  People will definitely develop their own styles over time.

The thing is tho, I look at GGAC and hell even 3s and I see, or at least feel like, both games have more style the MBAC when it comes to executing. I know my shit with Axl in GGAC and I mix stuff up all the time and some of it works and some of it doesn't and some of it gives me and my friends a good laugh. This goes for everyone I play with. In 3s, I find nothing more fun then screwing with my tourny friends game by doing random shit. In MBAC, I see none of this, and when I decide to try something, I get nothing but punishment. It feels like MBAC is in a mold that it has a real hard time breaking.
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Offline pc1x1

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2007, 06:48:15 AM »
The main issue is a large pooling of players. We do not have a large US scene, most of us play in our pcs, there is no pressure to get good fast, playing the game is free and theres no alternative competition. Alot of players are still using pad and keyboard, a limiting factor right there.

The US MB community is various communities in its own. Here in EC, Florida, I don't think I ever played vs a real VAkiha. This is our local characters.

Sion
Arc
Red Arc
Len
Miyako
Hisui
Shiki Tohno
Shiki Nanaya
Nero

Those are the chars that seem most play, though we do play with others characters as well.

As far as emulating, if you watch my Sion, it would look Japanese, granted I am nowhere near as good as I should be, I am pretty sure I can count all the competitive Sion players in one hand, I realize picking her as my main, when I just started this game, is going to make me the suck for quite a while, I believe in as an investment. The Japanese scene grew out of their investment phase, and are peaking. Its a matter of time, and hopefully real life competition, that will garner our scene some respect. Otherwise for now theres to much disparity, and lack of real dedication to the game. Though we all need time, I do at least, I play completely different than when I played Choco in the tourney, and despite some technical things that made me worse when playing him, I am certainly better now.

But if you want a true solution, then meet up with people, at least in Cali your somewhat near a player. I think the closest player to me is in Orlando, aside from the local scene.

Offline FireBearHero

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2007, 10:50:33 AM »
Whether we all use the same combos or not is irrelevent(not saying we all do) and even execution is irrelevant.
At least playing Aoko i've noticed the main thing that advanced my play is spacing.
You have to know what distance to stand away from every character, and even individual players for best results.

This is all fine and dandy for most characters, but what about the super aggressive Hisui/Miyako/W.Arc players that will give you no choice but to abandon good spacing? You have nothing in your arsenal that can stuff them at point blank. What do you do now that you're about to unavoidably lose your spacing to a powerful rushdown character? Here is where high level playing starts.

Do you block and wait for them to use something with long recovery frames?
Do you bait them to jump in and shield?
Do you parry and 5a? Or is it a lamer Ceil trying to bait you into her 236C?
Do you try to 3c them into the basic air combo for a throw into the corner?
Do you wait and try to catch them with a 5[C]?
Do you jump and hope to evade their hit and get them with j.[C] into air combo?
Do you dash in and try to win a clash?
Or maybe you have your browning mines in a good place and you don't have to anything but wait for them to blockstun or hit it like a dumbass?

Knowing all this is great and all, but as i'm getting tossed around like a rag doll and beat into a god damn pulp I often realize if I could have beat that rushdown if i'd just stayed put and stuck with 5b.

I hope you understand what i'm trying to get at.
I'm saying it's not so much what combo you use but how you throw it all together and react to the bullshit your opponent is trying to force down your throat.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 10:55:10 AM by Thana »

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2007, 11:23:05 AM »
Aoko has 623+C, bara-orb, and gratitous use of A-laser to keep the likes of much of the cast out.

It's more of a chore to get in on her.

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Offline Zaelar

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2007, 01:01:35 PM »
"But it works!"

If you find something good, you abuse the hell out of it until someone finds a counter(or you find the counter yourself).  Then you find a counter to the counter, and you have gameplay advancement!  The do good thing or do a counter to the counter is how a fight goes after you make that advancement.  What happens when you see a top player vs a scrub(with the top player actually trying)?  Top player does good thing, hits scrub, top player does counter to the counter to that good thing, gets hit by something random, ect., first game is close.  Second game scrub gets destroyed now that top payer just spams that first good thing.

"Now wait Mizuki! You play CvS2!"

Comparing two top japanese cvs2 players to two top american mb...wait we don't have two top mb players.  We have one and a bunch of scrubs that just mimic youtube(most of which failing)....and me throwing out 236c randomly.  If you're just trying to say that the us mb scene is a bunch of scrubs then I agree.

"How can we take you seriously Mizuki, you fucking suck."

That doesn't mean you can't post something whorthwhile.  This post sucking means you can't post something worthwhile.

Offline FireBearHero

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2007, 10:44:33 AM »
Aoko has 623+C, bara-orb, and gratitous use of A-laser to keep the likes of much of the cast out.

It's more of a chore to get in on her.

>_X

My friends bait that shit so hard  :emo: besides shotgunning A-laser which is too fast to bait effectively  >:D

It's important to toss out stupid random stuff(as long as it is relatively safe), as it'll sometimes work and net you free hits.
Random 236C with ceil is just wicked, though ,,|,,


Offline Boku

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2007, 06:46:21 PM »
Aoko has 623+C, bara-orb, and gratitous use of A-laser to keep the likes of much of the cast out.

It's more of a chore to get in on her.

>_X

My friends bait that shit so hard  :emo: besides shotgunning A-laser which is too fast to bait effectively  >:D

It's important to toss out stupid random stuff(as long as it is relatively safe), as it'll sometimes work and net you free hits.
Random 236C with ceil is just wicked, though ,,|,,


Truth.
Shitty of a player as I am, this is why I'm able to catch people off guard with Akiha's 623B or 2BB, both moves have painful recovery time which is why no one expects them most of the time because they're just plain stupid.

But they work, maybe once per match if that.
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2007, 07:57:05 AM »
The reason you want to do "random" moves is to not get repetitive/predictable.  They normally aren't used to hit the person, it's to let your other moves have a better chance of hitting when they are afraid of that stupid random move.  Said random move must actually be decent enough to have some purpose, like beating something weird out, covering something your usual moves don't cover, having an odd counter-hit setup, etc..  This rarely works in high level play due to your opponent knowing of that odd use.

Offline HeartNana

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2007, 11:11:53 PM »
There's a bit of a difference between SEEMINGLY random moves (since nothing is truly random, if a player does a move, they intend to do that move, to the opponent though, it doesn't seem that way, and it's a strange move in a strange situation, especially something risky that works, we tend to blame it on the random) and mixing up gameplay.

Seemingly random moves is throwing moves out there and just hoping it will hit without really having a good reason. One thing that might cause people wanting to do this is if it works against certain people. To me, i played against a guy who i would use B whip a lot against, and so against other people, i would throw out B whip in "weird spots" but it's just me trying to hit it on the other opponent the same way i hit it against the guy i played against the most.

Mixing up gameplay is like doing a reverse beat into a throw or jab mixup. It gives the opponent a direct 50/50 (for the most part) situation that they are forced to try to stop. Seemingly random moves can generally be stopped by just not attacking or not jumping.

Random moves might work once or twice, or for a match, but really, to level up a lot, you have to not rely on the fact that your opponent is gonna be scared of the random moves. What if they dont fall for your first "random move" attempt and you get hella punished. Now you're scared to pull out the random move with no backup plan. You have to learn how to just make the best out of every situation, and just tossing a move out doesn't always accomplish that. EVERY TIME you throw out a move, you should throw it out with a clear goal in mind and some reasoning behind it. A random move might not be bad in the case of like: "everytime my opponent does a 2C 5A they run up and throw afterwards if blocked. So after they do 2C and i see them whiff the 5A, i'll throw out a dragon punch, which would seem random to them, as it's not on wakeup, and im not coming from the air." If it hits, the opponent might check it off to randomness. The thing is, do that against the next guy you play, if it works, they'll be like "huh, so random, why would you do that there" etc.

Its like in this sausagefest2 vid:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oz6o6U0QZFs
Zar was commenting on the match. I do 2C 214A(with Sion of course) and then Spooky blocks it and i DP from like, quarter screen away, further than DP distance, thats for sure. It hits and Zar goes "wow, random DP into 623C...or maybe it wasn't random, completely intentional"

Obviously, it was a small setup i knew, but at the time, it just seemed like i was tossing stuff out for the sake of it. Not that i plan on scaring my opponent with that tactic, it was just a "use once and hope they do what i want them to do in that situation" thing. So im not saying don't use setups and stuff, but don't base your gameplay off of hoping stuff that you just kinda toss out hits. Don't ever rely on one of those V.Akiha 2BB's for the kill because the second you start to do that, a good player will block it and kill you for it, and thats the match.

As for the US Melty scene. Simply put, not enough people. As for the lack of characters thing, I know it's gonna sound mean, but just HAVING someone who plays a certain character doesn't always mean much. If there's a guy who uses, say, Warc, but he's really not that great, then the community, while it has a "Warc player," it doesn't mean that the person is any good. If someone just isn't that great, they can only help the scene so much. This is why Zar is referenced so much. He is REALLY REALLY good. Its not who he uses, its how good he is. He puts lots of time into the game, studies it etc. Does it matter if he uses Aoko or Akiha?

Not really, if the top player is the top player, then whoever they use is gonna be who people find the toughest. Regardless of whether its a character "everyone uses" like the 5 you listed, or a character that not a lot of people use like Len, Warc, Miyako, etc. What matters more is how good the players are.

If Arly was winning with Kohaku instead of Nero, would it make a difference? No, what matters is that he's a top US player, and because of that, the players around him can get better.

It doesn't matter if you're the only one who uses your character in the US, or if you're one of 15 people. What matters is your skill level.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 11:14:34 PM by HeartNana »
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2007, 03:29:47 AM »
I don't think that post will fit in my sig T.T

Offline Arlieth Tralare

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2007, 11:27:12 AM »
Quote
If Arly was winning with Kohaku instead of Nero, would it make a difference? No, what matters is that he's a top US player, and because of that, the players around him can get better.

That would be true, but I don't really play casuals that much. :3
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol

Offline scottind

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2007, 12:22:05 PM »
Thanks to mason on that "creativity" point and striving to be different.

Now you know why i don't random/wakeup-EX Heiro.

fuckin scrubs

Offline HeartNana

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Re: My thoughts on the Melty Blood US Scene.
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2007, 06:31:44 AM »
Quote
If Arly was winning with Kohaku instead of Nero, would it make a difference? No, what matters is that he's a top US player, and because of that, the players around him can get better.

That would be true, but I don't really play casuals that much. :3

Well, there's more than one way aside from playing casuals.

To me, the motivation to be the best is enough. If i'm second best to someone, i really want to try hard to become better in any way i can. Even if i dont play against the "best person" all the time, i will do what i can to get better. You keep winning the CA tournies, and im sure the 2nd place and on people really want to win, so they're getting better to try to level up and beat you, without even playing you anywhere but a tourney setting. You get what im saying?
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