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ahaha that's no--wait, what?

Topics - CT_Warrior

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1
Kohaku's Magical Garage / Baiting Reversals
« on: January 06, 2010, 01:41:44 AM »
What are some methods you use to bait reversals?

I honestly hate reversals, but I hate it even more when someone reacts to your baiting and puts the hurt on you even by the use of the scrubbiest means, so I thought it'd be good to learn different ways to bait them.

I'll share some of methods to start.

IAD jX
Time an IAD air attack so that it would/could hit the opponent as a meaty. So Kohaku's fake jC meaty into 2A could work, just block on reaction for EX flash (your attack meaty or fake meaty would whiff and you would land on the ground without recovery and block the revesral) or keep blocking for a bit longer if you have a hunch that they'll use a non-ex reversal, then 2A. Kohaku's fake jC into meaty 2A would not work.

Meaty 2A with latter active frames into block
This doesn't work consistently on reversals with fast startup, but you will be able to safely throw out the 2A and block the slower reversals.

Delay, attack
Delay enough so that any time for them to input a reversal on wakeup is passed, and attack. They probably won't be able to react fast enough to poke that gap unless they're mashing it or expecting it. This can get you annoyingly mashed out at times.

Appear to be doing a meaty, jump
You can mash 2A or dash in or something to trick them into predicting the wrong thing. The direction you jump varies per reversal.

Dash in, backdash
Depends on your character's backdash and works better for reversals that are air unblockable, pressure is significantly weaker unless they were mashing 2A for a misread tickthrow, which you can punish if you are Nanagay.

Specials that are safe to some extent
Hisui 623C, Akiha 214B, Kohaku 236[A], VSion 236B, Sion gunthing

2
Hisui & Kohaku (Team) / The C-Maids Guide and Thread
« on: September 13, 2009, 02:37:15 PM »
Kohaku lead-

Compared to her solo form, Kohaku gains some Hisui summons for a useful pressure option (214B) and an additional overhead (214C) that can be tricky to block, and much better midscreen offense with air summons.
In exchange, she loses her command throw, molotovs (limited usefulness), and 6C, which is a useful addition to her combos, particularly midscreen.

The tradeoff isn't too bad. Even without her command throw, she has her less damaging normal throw that can setup plant oki for more potential damage. Her strength gained from Hisui summons debatably outweigh the strength gained by molotovs. Without 6C (the main loss), there are still alternative midscreen combos Kohaku can do for less damage, and she has around the same damage output in the corner from very specific hitconfirms.

In general, the play style between the two are notably different. Once your opponent respects your air summons, they'll probably avoid camping on the group, and you have a great advantage in the air. The biggest difference is the moves that are used in pressure. Since you do not have the leniency of 2C 6C 236BC as a hitconfirm, you have to save 5C or 4B in your blockstrings depending on your position or preference for stronger pressure.

Normals-
2A: A fast short poke that's neutral on block and hits LOW. 4 frame startup.
2BB: First attack hits mid, second attack hits low. Moves you a bit forward, which will be useful in pressure and hitconfirm for your corner combo. 8 frame startup.
2C: Long range to tag jumpouts and hits low, but easily punishable on whiff. In my opinion, it's better not to use it for pressure. 10 frame startup.
5A: Whiffs over most crouchers, neutral on block. 5D5A works as antiair. 4 frame startup.
4B: Hits low. +1 on block. Charged version vacuums them towards you with +3 frame advantage. Quick 7 frame startup. This is such a awesome move. ;_;
5B: Anti-air with pretty good range. I'd use it to swipe them out of the air as they jump or from a distance, but not to counterhit them as it will most likely fail. Can be charged for a nontechable knockdown and further range. Not very good for pressure due to knockback, but works well when charged to punish jumpouts. 9 frame startup.
5CC: 5C itself is mainly used for blockstrings and combos. Inputting C another time will cancel pushback and trigger a 4 hit broomspin that also moves her forward, the last of which will launch for a high proration combo. The canceling of pushback and the forward movement is extremely important in her midscreen combos. 5CC is also used in blockstrings, but make sure to master the weird timing of canceling it!
jA: hits mid, good air poke at close range, recoverable after throwing it out, so you won't be forced to land.
jB: hits high, long range attack horizontally upward. You have to land after throwing it out. It's also angled a bit upward near the tip, so keep that in mind.
jC: hits high, long range attack vertically forward. It doesn't hit directly under you, so aim it a bit more in front of you. I like the changes of this hitbox. It was a bit frustrating in MBAC when jC would whiff versus crouchers because you were just a bit too close to the corner.
6E: Kohaku throws them with enough frame advantage to lay down the plant oki. I'd receommend 22A in the corner, and 22C in midscreen if you have meter. (6Q in MBAC, they changed Q to E.)
j6E: One of the better airthrows in the game in that it is untechable and you have enough frame advantage to continue pressure.

Specials-

236A: Sword slash aimed low with a fantabulously pretty arc. You can charge this move so that it becomes and overhead that sets them into untechable knockdown and you can cancel this move into another ex move on hit or whiff.

236AA: Knocks them upward and can be canceled into an ex move on hit or whiff. It can vacuum your opponent towards you if they are hit while standing.
236AB: Cancels 236A with a roll on hit or whiff.

236B: Sword slash aimed high that can catch them whenever they aren't blocking in the air and for combos. It can be charged to become air-unblockable or to wallslam for usage in combos. Cancel into 22C to avoid being punished on whiff or block.

236BA: Knocks them upward, but is not cancelable. If you hit the opponent with the latter frames of this move (requires a combo setup), you can link into 5A if you're close enough or 4B early in the combo for high damage.

236BB: Roll cancel 236B wondraslash.

236B~C: Battou fake. Can be pretty deceptive if you know how to use it. If you're going for a fake overhead, don't cancel the attack immediately into this. The sudden animation change makes it more apparent.
236C: The EX version of her 236X moves. It's used at the end of your combos for untechable knockdown and plant setup. It's possible to use this as a reversal, but it's inconsistent and pretty weak even if it lands.

214A: Hisui summon. Kohaku calls on Hisui to dash forward and face palm them. Air unblockable, so can be used to end midscreen pressure in hopes of landing a hit.

214B: Hisui runs up and smacks them with a chair for decent frame advantage. Used mostly in corner pressure. Air blockable.

214C: Hisui runs up, jumps and hits them with her overhead table. Strong mixup when not overused. Cannot be comboed off of without a plant.

22A: A drilly plant that flies off diagonally. You can hold A to delay the launch. Very useful for comboing off mixups you normally couldn't before. If you do 22AB(hold), you can hold the B button instead of the A button. They work like Aoko's held orbs in that you can switch which buttons to hold the plant with.

22B: The spinny plant that hits 8 times. Serves a much more general purpose than 22A with longer range and more midscreen usage. There are many mixups off of this.

22C: Kohaku throws out her little punching cactus. It is air unblockable when it is in the air and allows for some of her deadliest mixups once they're in blockstun.

2222C: A plant that isn't used too much. It shoots a number of fireballs for a relatively short time. Encourages the opponent to jump or otherwise be stuck in blockstun.

22222C: A poison plant that drains her opponents health about once per a second for a good amount of time if it hits.

j214A: Same as her 214A, short recovery on land.

j.214B: Same as her 214B, short recovery on land. Has uses for her neutral game too.

j.214C: Not an overhead, short recovery on land.

1632143C: Her drug-on install still has loooooooong startup but the bloodheat lasts a bit longer and the superarmor seems more useful than MBAC.

41236C (Max/Heat): Soya! This move hits OTG and is often used after any move that untechably knocks down the opponent like charged 5B. Good damage, and circuit breaks the opponent.
41236C (Blood Heat): A weaker version of her arc drive in all regards except damage. Too slow to hit OTG.

Combos-

Midscreen:


2A 2BB 4B 2C 5CC (three hits) 236A 236BC 2A 2C 5CC 236A 236BC 2A 2C 5CC IAD jB land jAAAB djAABC
Probably not original, but I found this combo on my own. It does 5k or more damage and takes them all the way to the corner.

2A 2BB 4B 2C 5CC IAD jB land jAAAB jAABC
This is the easier combo. Easy, consistent, and puts them into the corner most of the time.

Corner:

Take a look at the mizuumi page too.

2A 2B 2C 5C 5B(charged) 4B 236BA 5A 5C 5B(charged) 2B 4B 236BA 5A 5CC 236B(charged) xx

Enders-
1) 5A 5CC 236BB(charged) 2C 22A/22B/22C
2) (5A 5CC 236B(charged)) x2 into 2222C Johnny.

I'll try to find out how to chain into her other enders later.

Blockstrings-
I'm not exactly great with Kohaku, but I'll just explain the general pressure metagame and how it works.

Pressure in MB is pretty much trying to keep your opponent in the corner or push them into it while punishing them when they try to get out when they're not supposed to or to able to use mixups to break their guard.

In a single blockstring,
2A will be the backbone of your pressure. 5A to whiff cancel.
2B/2BB 5B 4B and 5C are most of everything else in your pressure. For hitconfirming, damage, etc.
2C is one of your last resorts if you think they'll try to escape after running out of B moves that can prevent them from escaping, because you probably won't be able to reset pressure if it's blocked.
214B can replenish the rest of your moveset and maintain pressure, but there's a small gap in which you can be poked out of.

You can RESET PUSHBACK (so that you don't get pushed back too far) by dashing in (least safe), IADing in, jumping back and dashing in, and jumping in.
You can do this after a 2A, B move whiff canceled into 5A, 4B, or 214B. However, there will be an escapable, pokable GAP between blockstrings. Your opponent knows this too, so he would probably try jumping out or poking during these times.

You can PUNISH his attempt to escape or poke during those gaps by throwing out a suitable attack almost immediately after usually called a FAKE WHIFFCANCEL in the cases of whiffcanceling or a HITCONFIRMING move for everything else. You have probably at least three to seven points per string in which you can either reset
your pushback or throw out a fake whiffcancel/hitconfirming move. You mixup these two options to discourage your opponent from taking action. He will have to read gaps to see whether it is a reset or another hitconfirming move. Beyond this simple concept, you can purposely make gaps bigger than they should be to bait an action only to punish it.
You should only attempt this if your opponent respects your pressure, as the gap is big enough for them to counterattack you by mashing an attack immediately after leaving blockstun at their own risk.

In addition to the reset/attack mixup to scare the opponent enough to be able to reset pressure, you also have 4B(charged) and 214B and 236[A]/236BC. The 4B(charged) application is nearly the same as the above. Sometimes you should do a half charged 4B to punish them for trying to react early, other times you can do 4B(charged) to reset pressure at the risk of the additional time gap.
For 214B, the gap is nearly unreadable unless Hisui is far away from your opponent. In contrast to 4B(charged), resetting pressure after 214B hits is less guaranteed and spacing dependent.

Example blockstring and explanations:


After a 2A starter, you have so many options that he'll probably stay blocking unless he reads a gap too big, but the more 2As you throw out, the more likely he'll try to escape.
After something like 2A 2B 5A, your options are limited since you can't whiffcancel again. From here, you can either try to reset pushback via air as stated above, or do a fake whiffcancel by cancelling 5A into:

5B(charged), to smack them out of the air or punish late attacks.
2A (not really a cancel), if you are close enough for it to hit, you can punish pokes or jumpouts before they come out and have more options if it's blocked.
4B, 5B, 5C give the same effects with less range limitations at the cost of a bit more pushback and less options.

If your fake whiffcancel hits, hitconfirm into a combo. If not, then you just continue on with your blockstring.
Your blockstring continues this way until there's a point where you are pushed back too far. This is why you have to mix-in pushback resets to prevent this, and also because it can allow you to do mixups while pressuring them.

Continuing on with the example, let's say you did 2A 2B (5A)whiff 2A.
Already, you have another point in which you can try to reset pressure, or continue with your blockstring. Remember that you have those points after 2A's, a B-move whiffcanceled into 5A, 4B nonwhiffcanceled, or 214B.

Here are some of your options after 2A 2B (5A) 2A.

1) 2A 2B (5A) 2A IAD jC :: Resets pressure, mixup opportunity, and all done in your opponent's fear that you might throw a B move or 5C after that 2A. Even if they were mashing 2A, IAD jC would beat it clean, thus attacking during a blockstring is usually the worse option in comparison to trying to escape.
2) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B :: If you have a hunch that your opponent will try to get out after that 2A (he's got to try to escape sometime), throw out a 4B, and you can hitconfirm into a 4000+ damage combo.

Let's say that that 4B was blocked, still.
You're getting closer and closer to being pushed too far, ending your pressure. 4B is a great move though, you have so many options after it.
You can try to reset using IAD, dashing in (not as safe, normally for tickthrows), 214B to reset using a small gap, or use 5C to continue even further with your blockstring.

1) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B IAD xx :: resetting variation with potential mixup
2) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B dashin grab :: mixup, readable, somewhat risky unless your opponent respects your pressure enough.
3) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 214B xx :: resetting variation so that your opponent has more options to read and be less prepared to do an anti-IAD strat aka jumping or whatever.
4) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 5C xx :: hitconfirm

That's for those who prefer reading notation.

If you used 5C and had it blocked, you could use 2C, or 214B, or 5B(charged) at a risk since it will whiff their crouching hitbox.

1) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 5C 5B(charged) :: hitconfirm that gives you another point to reset or throw out another move at the cost of rebeat.
1a) .. 5B(charged) 2C :: hitconfirm
1b) .. 5B(charged) 214B :: reset
2) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 5C 214B :: reset
3) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 5C 2C :: hitconfirm

If 2C is blocked, it's pretty much over. You can probably squeeze in a 214A to knock them out of the air if they react slow, but it's probably better to cancel your 2C into something else like 236BC or 5A only if you chose a blockstring without a fake whiffcancel and try to keep them from leaving the corner. You can also go for the 236[A] mixup and 236BC fakeout to reset.

1) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 5C 2C 214A :: pretty worthless
2) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 5C 2C 236[A] :: overhead mixup
3) 2A 2B (5A) 2A 4B 5C 2C 236BC :: fakeout and cancel in order to have a higher chance of retaining pressure via air (pushing them back into corner with your air moves)

Once it comes to this. It's almost a neutral situation again, your opponent has as good chance of hitting you as much as you do. You have a slightly advantage in that they're in the corner, try not to let them get past you, but let them get past you if your spacing fails.
Also, during maybe of your IAD reset attempts. Your opponent may have reacted or guessed correctly too and jumped, so now it's air versus air. You have the upperhand though, although your opponent might be able to win out.

Mixups without plants-

They're a pretty big part of Kohaku's game since her mixups are so good. Blockstrings can only punish the opponent for trying to get out when they weren't supposed to. It'd be very helpful if you were able to punish your opponent for blocking the wrong direction (low and high or left and right), or blocking when they shouldn't (tickthrows).

Basic:
jC ad (airdash) jC
jC(whiff) 2A
People fall for this basic mixup all the time, even at the higher levels.

jCB
It doesn't really have another fake with it, but it's sorta like a readable fuzzy guard. It's possible to block jC ad jC by first blocking high, then blocking low and realizing that your opponent airdashed to block high again. It's not possible to block jCB this way, so that explains why it sometimes works.

IAD jB/C
IAD jC (slight charge to delay it so that it whiffs) 2A
Most people only use the jC whiff variation, but there are a good number of players who like to mock them and block low the whole time.

IAD (delay) jC(hit)
IAD (delay jC(whiff) 2A
Sometimes extending the airdash may make them block low out of habit. Use sparingly, and show them the above mixup first at least.

IAD jC(whiff) grab
Sometimes even blocking is the wrong choice.

IAD jC 236[A]
IAD jC(whiff) 236[A]
Double overhead, because people don't expect double overheads, unless they do. Your opponent needs to not expect this at all for this to work, since it's easily readable in my opinion.

IAD jC j214B 236BC 2A
Frame advantage protected tricks.

IAD jC j214C 2A
This is for people who don't know that 214C hits mid.

IAD jC j214C 236BC 2A
This is for people who do know that 214C hits mid.

Mixups with plants-

22B/

dash 2A
dash 214C
This worked so well for me in MBAC.

dashin 2A 2C
Beats jumpouts, and backdashes.

IAD xx
Can potentially beat some backdashes, and allow for some strong mixups (some crossups!) if they sit still.

dashin grab
Normally used to kill off their remaining health. If used otherwise, throw out 22C afterward.

5C 2[C] xx
Some super high damage combo that'll strong discourage them from jumping. I don't know the string for MBAA. For MBAC it was 5C 2[C] 2B 5B jBCAA djBC at (airthrow) or something.

22[A]/

IAD jC dj jC [A] (let go of A) xx
I'll fill it in later

22AB(hold) 2A staggers (or none) into tickthrow, release B for added damage.

22AB(hold) 2A staggers into mixups

22A[C] 6A6E2B xx option select

22C/

All previous mixups.
IAD jC djC fuzzyguard.

Hisui Lead-

Compared to her solo form, she loses stuff-fu and j6B and gains kohaku summons.
I've always felt that stuff-fu was overrated. You can camp and zone with it, and fish for counterhits, but Hisui doesn't need to camp and she already has 623B and obentous to use in the stead of stuff-fu.
I do agree that stuff-fu is essential in some matchups, but those matchups are still playable and one has the option of switching to Kohaku for bad matchups.

She gains much better oki over the standard obento setups, especially in the corner.
Obentos tend to fly offscreen if you get a throw in the corner as well, and Hisui-solo loses incentive to tickthrow for the risk of being mashed out.

Comparing damage (Versus VSion)..

Tickthrows)

Obento: 1084 damage (if it didn't fly out of the screen).
214A: 2017 damage.
214B: 2467 damage!
214C: 1827 damage.
All of this, plus reset.

Combos)

Obento: 22A 2B 5C(onehit) j[C]AB land jACB djCBB 3309 damage.
Obento: 22A 2B 5C(onehit) 6C jC ad jBB 236A jAAC djCBB 3450 damage.
214A: 214A 2B 5C 2C 6C jC ad jBB j236A jAAC djCBB 3725 damage.
214B: 214B 2B 5C(threehits) jC ad jBB j236A jAAC djCBB 5168 damage.
214B: 214B 2B 5C(threehits) jC ad jBB j236B 6B 2A djBC djCBB 5276 damage!
214C: 214C 2B 5C 2C 6C jC ad jBB j236A jAACB jCBB 4880 damage.

3
Hisui / Hisui Tutorial
« on: November 12, 2008, 12:18:43 AM »
Hisui is a very good character overall (Top of A-tier), with some minute weaknesses.

Her Strengths:
Good air game (air normals/dashes/jumps)
High meterless damage
Great zoning (stuff-fu, 623B antiair, airgame)
Great Okizeme (obento setups or !molotov summons! after throw and corner BnB [wow, even after the corner BnB!).
Easy to use.
Good dash for tickthrows and presssure.
Good, safe arcdrive.
Ex dust.
236A yulululululu

Her Weaknesses:
Low priority (I seem to always lose in clash situations with multiple attacks)
No good reversals on wakeup (they're risky anyway. :P)
No good bara-cancel moves (yay, less execution, but you can still bara with the default)
No quick air attack that hits below you.

Combos:
Hisui has three main variants to her meterless BnBs.
The underlines are the variants where you can input other attacks for hitconfirming, extra damage, and other situational things like jBB depending on the situation.
5[C] = partial charged 5C

Any Range: ____ 2C 5C uncharged/ 5[C] partial charged 6C aircombo
Closer Range: ____ 5C (two hit) 2C 6C 5B aircombo
Closer Range #2: ____ 5C (two hit) 2C 6C aircombo

Now I'm going to teach you how to fill in the blank at the beginning and to choose a combo.
The [] brackets are to show that the attack is optional/situational.

From air)
Any Range: jC / jCB  (jCB does more damage if you have no reverse beat penalties and allows you to combo if you connected jC too high in the air. ) > [2A] (if you don't think you can combo jC 2B because you connected jC too high, but lowers the damage by about 100-300) > [5B] (if you're close enough for extra damage) > 2B > Any Range combo
jC / jCB > [2A] > [5B] > 2B > Any Range combo
Closer Range: jC / jCB > [2A] > 2B > Closer Range combo
Closer Range #2: jC/jCB > [2A] > 5B > Closer Range combo #2

From ground)
Same as air, but without jC, and maybe some more 2As for easier hitconfirming.

Aircombo:
Any Range: jBC /jCB (if you're too low, jCB will help you gain vertical height to do the rest of the BnB at the cost of rebeat, won't matter for this BnB, but just saying) > djBC at (airthrow)/dj[A]CBB (read corner tech punishes)
Closer Range: jABC > djBC at / djCBB
Closer Range #2: jC ad (airdash) > jC/jB (jC does more damage, but harder) > dj [A]BC / dj [A]CBB

Depending on which variants you used and your reverse beats, Closer Range and Closer Range #2 will do more damage. Experiment to find out which works best in each situation. The Any Range BnB is just the easiest to hitconfirm into when you start, and I'd recommend learning that first.

EX Dustloop combo:

5[C] / 2B 5C / 5B 5C > 623C 5B 5C (delay) 5B 5C (delay)
1) 5B 2B 2C 5C 6C jBC > djBC airthrow / djCBB
2) 2B 5C 2C 6C 5B jBC > djBC airthrow / djCBB
3) 5B 2B 5C 2C 6C jC ad > jB / jC >  djBC airthrow / djCBB

Arcdrive Combo:

5[C] / 2B 5C / 5B 5C > 41236C > 2C 5C 6C > aircombo
41236C (close range crossup)> 2B 5C 2C 6C 5B > aircombo
41236C (far range) > dash 2C 5[C] 6C> aircombo


Counterhit-from-Air Combo:

2C 5C 6C > aircombo (higher damage)
5B 6C> aircombo (lower damage but tons easier)

Ex-shield Antiair Combo:

5D 5A(counterhit) dash 2C 5C 6C > aircombo
5D 5AAA jAAA dj AAA airthrow (You never know if it'll counterhit or not! Not optimal combo)

OTG Combo:

They're all close enough in damage. You can use 623C to extend it and throw a chair out afterward. I use 2B[5B]5AAA




Normals/Command Normals:
5A: Quick anti-air, whiffs over most crouched hitboxes, your primary whiff cancel move.
2A: Hits mid. Quick poke to stop tickthrows, failed pressure, etc. Also used to whiffcancel after you use up your first one.
2B: Hits low. Shielded low.Use it to techpunish, for mixups, and to beat high shield for okizeme (what you do when your opponenet is getting off the ground).
5B: Hits mid. Shielded high. High damage combo starter and to beat low shield for okizeme.
6B: Launcher. You can use it in some ghetto combos, or for when you hitconfirm after using up your 2C launcher, normally after 5C. Low range. Cannot combo from 2B/5B. Not too useful.
2C: Hits low. Untechable. Pretty good range.
5C: Slow. Use only in combos and pressure.
5[C]: Tons of clash. Can beat run-in attempts if they attack early and don't predict it (not a good chance against better people). Pretty good anti-air at times, but can be baited. I personally use this a lot in neutral game. People tell me all the time not to use this in pressure. I'd disagree, it's not bad. People can react to it easily and try to bait it, but I've baited their bait and allowed myself to continue pressure by very partially charging 5C so that it won't hit the opponent to shield/dodge. If you don't always use it after 2C and mixup when you use it, then this is a valuable tool for continuing pressure and catching jumpout and poke attempts. Use 623C or 5A to continue pressure. You will not be able to continue pressure by dashing in after 5A.
6C 6[C] 236C: Pan attack. Only use 6C in combos. Unless you want to run Pishi mixups: 6C delay 2C (low) 6C 6[C] (high)
jA: Poke angled downwards, main air attack for zoning though maybe not for attacking.
jB: Overhead that can't be used as an overhead by itself. Not for jumpins except after jC because it'll whiff. Stronger and faster than jC for opponents higher than you.
jC: You want to hit your opponents with this when you're in the air. Your main overhead. Good hitbox. Doesn't really hit below the table as well, so beware of anti-air.
j2C: Great priority, hitbox, and counterhitter. Changes your momentum in the air to bait some attacks/shield. Neutral/advantage on block depending on when you hit, and death on shield.

Specials:
236ABC: Don't use 236A/236B. 236C can be used as a wakeup reversal sparingly that work against some attacks, but is punished heavily by baras, or on block. "236C IS PRETTY MUCH FUCKING AWESOME."
j236ABC: j236A (combos into j236C) and 236B (can be TKed and continue pressure with) actually counterhit a lot of things, but it's not worth using since there are better options. Bara-able if they're grounded. j236C after superjump backdash jC mixup to combo.
623AB: 623A sucks, can cancel into another EX move though. 623B is super anti-air, don't get too obvious or it gets shielded or baited in some other way like IAD or dashins.
623C: Super awesome move. In corners, you can get major frame advantage, or if they're blocking it in the air for whatever reason, you can get a 5B guard-break combo onto them. Can use for keepaway, get out of corner during a random point in their blockstring, or as a safe spot to throw potbooks or etc.
214ABC: "There should really only be four 'items' you should be using when doing stuff-fu (214+A/B).

The one you'll be using most is 2141+B, aka pot books. The book comes out at a low angle, hits twice (once on contact, and a second when opening up on the floor) and the pot travels at a nice arc at nearly full screen. If you're given a chance to do it, super jump and follow 'pot', it's practically free entry on your opponent.

Then you have 2142+A, which is just pot if I'm not mistaken. You should use this every so often after block strings in the corner or when you might want to stop someone from jumping around aimlessly. Please note that this 'pot' comes out faster then 'pot-books', hence it being worth using.

Next is 2146+A, which is just book. Throw this out randomly in block strings when you have the guy in the corner and don't have dust to rely on. It'll also otg. Not sure about it's speed in coming out.

Lastly is 2146+B, aka TRAY-BOOKS. This is your primary spam projectile from a little bit past half to full screen. Tray will fly across the screen pretty damn quick, and book comes out per usual. Use this to annoy your oppent into doing something stupid, but sparsely against characters who can retaliate (even without meter) like Aoko, Chaos, Mech Hisui, and Ciel. Don't use it against Ciel at all, the bitch can DASH under it and her dash will clash with book as well.

You can not control what comes out from 214+C (with no meter) nor can you do it with ex-stuff either. At best EX-Stuff is a decent option for a bara move which can lead to a MASSIVE counter hit stun (they'll be stuck in the air for a good 2-3 seconds)."

22ABC: Close bento, far bento, chair. Shall explain this in detail soon enough.
4B: Drains 30% meter and knocks them down if they don't block low. Pretty worthless, but still awesome nonetheless.


General Strategy/In-depth Play:
The round is starting.. and you start off doing anything you want.
Find a signature opening of random dodges or anything just because you can.

My advice would be to start far away from the opponent.
If you're on the ground at a distance, 90% of the time they'll come at you through the air in anticipation of your stuff-fu.
You can probably just run right under them and throw a potbook afterward. yomi!

Depending on which character you're playing, they're probably go rushdown mode on you since they don't want you to use stuff-fu.
You want to force them onto the defensive with stuff-fu and get in somehow.

Once you get in, you want to stay in and do as many mixups and tickthrows without being too predictable as you can until they die.
If they get out, then you simply have to get in again. If you get in yourself, get out or turn it around. That's probably the core of the game.

You keep them in with blockstrings and spacing to stop their jumpout attempts, which I will try to describe how (I'm not too good or bad at it myself)
You kill them with mixups and tickthrows, which I will list out, and describe how to do.

Blockstrings:

Here's the block string concept I'm using now.

Three blockstrings-
1) 2A [2A] > [5B] 2B 2C 5[C]

Sometimes adding the 2A at beginning makes 5B whiff. Sometimes you want to do the second 2A instead of the 5B. Sometimes 5B will whiff characters with short crouching hitboxes unless they're really close and you want to avoid it. Pick either 5B, 2B, 2C, and 5[C] and whiffcancel (5A) without delay and then try to reset. Mixup which attack you whiffcancel off of so that they never know beforehand when it's safe to poke/jump out. If you always whiffcancel 2C for example, they can just hold jump the next time you 2C and jump out. If you notice that one of your attack hits, finish your blockstring as fast as possible (so that it combos) and then combo from there. Hitconfirms into the Any Range combo.

2) 2A [2A] 2B > 5C / 5[C] > 2C

Another blockstring to mix things up. Less moves to hitconfirm with. And may sometimes whiff if too far back. Hitconfirms into Closer Range #1/#2 combo.

3) 2A [2A]x??? > dash in, [6A]6Q > 22A

A tickthrow.

You need to add delay in between attacks though. It's something called.. staggering.
Ask someone to do 2AA5B2B on you as fast as possible. If you block the first 2A, you automatically block all the rest of the moves. So you would have to intentionally add delay so that they have a small gap to try to jump/attack out, only to get hit by the next attack in the blockstring. The delay after an A attack is small, B is medium, C is large.

You have three ways to reset a blockstring:
1) Dash in - 2A/throw
2) IAD jC/jA/airthrow
3) Jump > diagonally forward > backward then airdash jCB etc

Dashing in is the least safe, but it has some of its merits. You can't dash in after a C move whiffcanceled to continue pressure, too much of a gap. Loses if they jump or mash/expect it.
IAD gives you a mixup, and can somewhat catch jump (as in force them to block so they're on the ground again) if they react slow and catches 2A/2B/2C mashing.
Jumping is somewhat safe and can catch jumps if you're good enough to hammer them back into the corner even after they doublejump after blocking your first attack(s) and is safest. Loses to dash.

Rules:
Stagger your attacks (leave small gaps in between attacks) otherwise the blockstring is pointless and you can't hitconfirm. If you do your blockstring without gaps, then they're forced to block and can't even poke out or jump out if they want to.
You should not be able to be hit by normals in your blockstring. If you do, then make the gaps between the attack smaller.


Mixups:
jC ad jC
jC whiff 2B
jC ad jC whiff 2B
jCB

After your mixup, you'll probably go into one of your combos that end in jCBB. So..

jBB Corner Techpunishes: http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=1267.0
And ikusat's video tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBoT4DbKPFM

Example Tickthrows:
jC whiff airthrow
jC ad jC whiff airthrow
jC ad jA -delay- throw at earliest possible moment.
2a [2a] [2a] dashin throw
2b5a dashin throw

What to do after tickthrow:
1) Obento

Obento Gimmicks Explained:
After you grab, you'll lay down a 22A for the most part. Sometimes 22B to catch backdash.
That obento covers your mixups or encourages them to block.

They may, on wakeup:
1)Jump out.
2)Backdash out or teleport.
3)Attack/grab.
4)Block
5)Shield
6)Use reversals

Your options to that:
1) 2B/5B 5C j[C]B land jBC > djBC at / dj CBB
Fancy and highly damaging combo that will hit if they try to jump out, attack/grab, or shield (50%, but they won't be shielding anyway, since the obento is there to blow them up)
This setup will still work if you do 22B, so you can cover jump and backdash at the same time. It's probably better to do 22B.

2) Crouchblock until their 2 invincibility frames are over, dash grab.
Beats some backdashes, blocking, shielding, and reversals.

3A) 2A meaty, dash in throw
The 2A should almost always hit unless they backdash. It's a less obvious tickthrow since there's less throw protection. Catches them off guard a lot of times.

3B) 2A meaty, delayed 2B
If they predict a dash in throw from the A setup, then they'll almost always try to jump or backdash. 2B will hit, and the obento will explode. I dunno the optimal combo.

4) Jump up, tilt forward.
Beats a lot of reversals and that annoying wakeup grab some people do on wakeup. x_x



After airthrow:
1A)jB to have less recovery frames on landing.
1B) airbackdash, delay jB to land on the otherside.
2)Guess front or back techpunish, react to neutral and no tech.
3)Punish according, or if no tech, do some kind of oki.

No tech mixups (if you think they'll block on wakeup):
1) IAD jB crossup.
2) Fake crossup sj backdash jC
3) Look at mixup section or make your own.

Sometimes your opponent will backdash on wakeup:
5[C] will catch them, but it's shieldable. Just run and 2B or something to catch them when you predict it or IAD.


That's basically it in a nutshell I guess. I'll add more later.

4
Hisui / 236C Cancel
« on: July 23, 2008, 08:00:10 PM »
Did you know that you can cancel 236C with another EX move on whiff?
If you're willing to waste 200 meter, you can possibly freely relieve yourself of okizeme.

5
Akiha Vermillion / A Guide to Hisui Lead
« on: July 10, 2008, 11:59:19 AM »
REMOVED MY SUPER SECRET TECHNIQUE.

I've been using HisuKoha for about 3 months now, so you can have some hope that I know what I'm talking about.

You don't have stuff-fu, you need to use other tools.

You have three options:
1) Chair
2) Obento
3) Approach

I throw out chairs instead of stuff-fu usually, they work well against some characters. You can tech to it, watch them clash the chair, then punish them while they're unable to do anything or at least get out. (character dependent). The chair also protects you from aerial attacks usually if you duck, then you can smack them while they clash and get a BnB on them. It also seriously messes up their combo or blockstring when they clash it.

The obento isn't really used too often outside of okizeme because your opponent can easily avoid it, and it has a long startup time, making it very risky.
They normally hesitate when you throw out a chair, so you could probably throw out a 22B and approach them.

The approach is.. just however you want to approach them. I find that nowadays, I'm just in complete rush-down mode, and I don't bother with chairs and obentos.

I find that the chair is underused because of stuff-fu, but it's time that somebody learn to use them to their max potential!

The differences between solo Hisui and Hisui lead.

Solo Hisui:
1) Stuff-fu and the zoning and mixup opportunities it brings.
2) Higher defense (approximately 6%)

Hisui lead:
1) Kohaku summon okizeme and chair replacements.
2) Lower defense.
3) Able to switch to Kohaku and all the uses of that.

The defense difference is extremely minor and you wouldn't notice it in a game. Maybe it might save you a few games, but not really.


KOHAKU SUMMONS!

214A)

Outside of okizeme:
Easiliy blockable/avoidable on reaction

Okizeme:
Lose frame advantage.

SCORE: FAIL, DON'T USE IT, EVER.


214C)

Outside of okizeme:
Good for zoning, don't throw out all the times you get a chance otherwise they'll rush you (like stuff-fu)
Has little (less than 214B) chance for counterhit if your opponent rushes too late.

Okizeme:
Better and safer than a standard meaty, but don't bother.

SCORE: BETTER THAN NOTHING.


214B)

Outside of okizeme:
Better than 214C for surrounding yourself. Has pretty good blast radius. It's sort of a luck thing to see how well this thing goes.

Okizeme:
Much better than obento in my opinion (corner AND midscreen)


214B Pros (against obento) (damage against kohaku)-

Punishes some/more EX reversals than obento.
More damage on tickthrow (2220 vs 975).
More damage on hit+combo and individual hit (1569 vs 540)
Works from throw in corner (obento flies offscreen, but still explodes randomly)
Doesn't have to be within proximity to explode
Can vary the explosion time a bit by varying when to summon Kohaku (not too useful, but allows for alternative setups)
Can catch backdash if Kohaku is positioned correctly. (character dependent)
Explosion can hide or distract and it's fairly big too.
There's a good period of time that Kohaku can be hit during and after the summon, if you two get combo'ed at the same time, you take a good amount less damage.
Opponent only has one chance to get out, and is punished harder if he tries to do so.
Can sometimes stop jumpout attempts, but not punish with the explosion.

Cons -
Is useless after the time it explodes (if they get out of obento, it's still there)
Kohaku position dependent (throwing them backward can help)
Less tickthrow opportunities (and less chances for your opponent to get out)
Mainstream setups all lose to heat.


Obentos in corners are really random and unreliable and can blow up when you don't want it to and cannot work well to your benefit other than a small damage explosion that you can't predict and combo from.

Midscreen 214B setups work 50% of the time, do more damage when they work, and are a lot safer because the explosion catches a lot of reversals and Kohaku can tank some damage.

Okizeme:
You only need two things. Throw setups, and meaty setups. That's it.


Throw, 214B:
Corner Throw Setups (universally beats blocking, parrying, shielding, attacking + reversals except grabs, and backdash in corners. Some characters harder to time against)
A) Low block, then throw ASAP. (1700-2700 damage beats low attacks, looks identical to MeatyA, delay the summon if you have trouble timing it)
B) Walk backward, walk forward to grab last moment to avoid heat or countergrabs (1700-2700 damage, beats heat and some grabs, though you should combo if they whiff a grab or heat)

Throw setups lose to jumpouts (the kohaku summon can bring them back down for some characters), EX/regular grabs, and teleports.

Throw, 214B:
Corner Meaty Setups (universally beats attacking, jumpouts, backdashes in corner)
A) 5B/2B 5[C] (partially-charged 3 hits) 6C jBC jCBB (4500-6000 damage and resetup, discourages shielding)
B) jC ad jC dj jBC airthrow (doesn't have to be a meaty, generally a safer "meaty" setup that allows a few mixups on block, but doesn't catch jumpouts)

Loses to reversals (they'll still probably get bombed, so you take less damage and stay in a neutral position, and Kohaku eats over half the damage of attacks like EX Hiero and dps), blocking (sorta, you're still in control), parry rolls like Kohaku's or Miyako's.

Alternative Setups (try to make one that covers the most options)
A) Heat. (Uh, yeah)
B) IAD/Jump and do whatever (anything to beat EX grabs)
C) Yes. (anything to beat teleports)

Loses to.. etc.


Throw, 214B:
Midscreen Throw Setups (universally beats blocking, parrying, shielding, attacking + reversals minus EX grabs, and has a chance to catch backdash witih molotov.)
A) Low block, throw at last moment. (1700-2700 damage beats low attacks)
B) Walk backward, dash forward to grab (1700-2700 damage, throw backwards if necessary, beats grabs and heat sometimes [character dependant, timing dependant])

It loses to everything I mentioned before and the new: backdashing, but it doesn't matter much. They can choose to jump and achieve the same results.
The kohaku summon random catches backdash depending on position.

Midscreen Meaty Setups (universally beats attacking, jumping, and backdash)
A) 5[C] (if they don't backdash)
A1) If Kohaku is positioned in a way that the opponent will be launched into the air from the molotov: 6C jBC jBC/jCBB
A2) If molotov will partially hit or not at all: EX Dust loop, or 2C 6C jC ad jB jACBB
A3) 5[C] (if they backdash) 6C jBC jBC/jCBB

If they block the 5C, EX dust can help keep them blocking to continue pressure.

Alternate Setups (corner alternative setups apply too)
A) 2A meaty, IAD jC (whiff/hit) 2B/grab (Easy to change setup into combo, adds mixups, loses backdash punishes)
B) Superjump, backdash, jC, j236C, combo. (not too hard to block, not good, just an example)
C) Heat Punish: Jump, jC ad jAB djCBB

And that's all you need to know about 214B.

MY OPINION:
Hisui's high and low are shit and very easy to block consistently compared to someone like Kohaku. That's why you need her tickthrows stronger. Kohaku summons make her tickthrows more powerful, especially in the corner. Stuff-fu helps you get in, and chair helps you be awesome. Stuff-fu is annoying to play against and use. For the type of player that I am, I'd do better with HisuKoha than Hisui solo.

Good luck and have fun!

6
Kohaku's Magical Garage / Does heat or EX specials buffer on wakeup?
« on: July 05, 2008, 01:07:35 AM »
I seem to have a lot of trouble timing it, I would think that it would be easier with 5-6 frames.
But do I even have 5-6 frames?

There's only one reversal frame.. hmm.
Probably my last question on mechanics, then I'll do some answering. ^^

7
Hisui / Hisui Block Strings?
« on: June 25, 2008, 09:21:49 PM »
I don't know how to pressure with her.

For me, the only thing I know how to do is 2abc 5[c] ;_;
Can anyone provide some example blockstrings?


8
Kohaku's Magical Garage / Air Tech Punishing?
« on: June 25, 2008, 12:07:12 PM »
When do the invincibility frames end?
What would be a good way to punish it?

I just jump and do an airthrow normally, it's beyond reaction and unblockable.
But I don't time it well.

9
Hisui / Hisui Throw Okizeme
« on: May 23, 2008, 10:06:16 PM »
I'm not saying that I know how to use Hisui as an expert, but I guess it would help to have a section that specifically has to do with.. well, her okizeme.

Ground Throw Okizeme Options (some of these work a lot better if you throw them the other way, 4Q)-

1) Low meaty (2a,2c) It is my experience that you should learn how to time these correctly instead of just mashing 2a since there's a higher chance that you could get thrown or poked. Follow up with whatever blockstrings and hitconfirms that you use.
2) Jump straightup, hold forward immediately (optional jC whiff before switching going behind them because it confuses them, but can sometimes attract unwanted attention to where your sprite is) so that you end up behind them (learn to time it so that you land behind them a little before they fully wakeup)
3) Jump straightup, hold forward after waiting a bit so that you end up in front of them (this won't work well if you don't train them to think it's a crossover.)
3a) Jump straightup, hold forward after waiting a bit , 2b/2c whiff (or hit if you time it really late))
4) walk forward a little, jump diagonal forward, dash backward as late as possible, 2c (time it so that you're dashing backward while they're standing up, or your own discretion)
5) Classic Obento Box/Chair
6) If you have Kohaku assist, I'd recommend using her summons if she's positioned correctly just because it works and it's pretty cute, heheh. Someone needs to write me a guide on how to use them.

EDIT: Whoa, try options 2 with jC whiff and 3a, they seem really identical so much that it's scary. o_o

2C-

I highly don't recommend okizeme for this, just do a damaging combo.
But this is for when you're staggering and you hit it unexpectedly.

1) Wait a bit and do some in the air attacks, however you want, experiment.
2) Obento/Chair
3) Ground meatys


Air Throw Okizeme -

Well, if they don't tech, that is.
1) I don't know how ikusat did it in his Hisui tutorial video on youtube, but he used jB as a crossup.
2) Obento/Chair
3) Ground Meaty
4) Air attacks

Personally, if it was in my ability, I'd do either 1, 2 or 4.
I don't know how to use the obento boxes at all, and I can't do ikusat's thingy. Just plain ground meaties are extremely easy to block (just.. block them) and you can do ground attacks after your air attacks anyway.


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