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Author Topic: C-Nanaya General Discussion  (Read 20708 times)

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Offline hipikachu

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C-Nanaya General Discussion
« on: March 17, 2013, 11:01:09 AM »
Hi guys, I'm new here, but we seriously do need some moon-specific threads. I'm somewhat new to Melty Blood as a whole, but am experienced with other anime fighters such as BB and GG. I hope you guys can show me how it's done here.

To start off, can anyone offer any advice regarding these problems:

2C>5C>jc>j.BC>AD>j.B>dj>j.BC>AT
I'm pretty sure this can be done, but the air dash keeps screwing me over.

stuff>2C>5BB>22C>jc>j.B>stuff
I don't understand how 22C brings the opponent any lower. I can do this link, just not consistently. Nanaya's j.B has some really awkward hitbox, and has issues linking into j.C at lower heights

Applying pressure
Ground overheads in this game seems difficult to land, and 214A cannot be combo'ed from IIRC. My mixup is somewhat limited, and my pressure is pathetic. How does one maintain and reset pressure without being pushed out of range? What blockstring enders does one use?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:04:57 AM by hipikachu »

Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 11:47:50 AM »
For the j.BC j.66B dj.BC, the important thing is to keep them low and close. The way I do it is 2C (delay as much as possible) 5C j.9B(2)C j.66B dj.BC. Honestly, I don't see this as being worth it. If you're after carry, just do dj.BC dj.66A, which I find much easier. Damage isn't exactly something to write home about either.

As for the 22C stuff, it's only lower than doing the 5BB combos normally. You'd usually have to do the special neutral super jump cancel from 5BB. That means you airthrow from higher and land slower. With this, you can do a normal jump. As for why you'd do a 5BB combo in the first place, it's so you can do 5C 2C instead of 2C 5C, which does far less damage.

EDIT: As for blockstring enders, whiff a 5A. CNana has a lot of moves that move him forward. Good blockstring moves are 5B, 2B, 5C, 2C... Meaning ALL YOUR MOVES. Do stuff like 5CA, 5{C}2B, 5A6E, 5B[B]22C, etc. CNanaya blockstrings are the hardest to learn 'cause they're so good. You have so many options that it takes a lot of experience to know what to do in a situation. In general, you want to whiff cancel (or 22C) your slow normals and get back in there with a 2B, dash, IAD, etc. CNana pressure isn't really a high/low mixup game, though, so don't feel like you have to throw an overhead every so often. It's more of a "I hate this game" type of pressure, 'cause you stay in there with frametraps for hours.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 12:39:03 PM by Sacchin 22A »
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Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 05:35:31 PM »
I see now, thanks a lot! Seeing the dates of the last activity on these boards, I was afraid this ghost town wouldn't yield any results for weeks. Thanks again for the fast reply. Just wondering, how do you guarantee a full j.BC>j.BC>AT string off a 22C>jc? The opponent seems to tech rather high in the air, while Nanaya's air normals mostly hit downwards.

Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2013, 05:55:51 PM »
The first j.BC should be fine if you spend a few minutes getting the timing down. The second part, you can do a super jump cancel. Just do 29 to do the double jump. Should make the rest of the combo trivial. If you can't get the airthrow, you can do an empty airdash before you airthrow. That said, you don't really need the 22C. You can save the 22C tech for when you're doing longer combos. Stuff like
2B 5C 2C 214B (close, sideswapping version, so time it when 2C brings you close) dash back in 2A 5BB 22C j.BC j.BC Airthrow or 2B 5C 2C 5BB 22C 236C 2C 214A. Longer combos increases gravity which makes them drop lower and makes the first one easier. The second one doesn't even require for you to pick them up with a jump.

EDIT: By the way, I don't actually play Nanaya, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 06:25:38 PM by Sacchin 22A »
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2013, 11:58:56 AM »
stuff>2C>5BB>22C>jc>j.B>stuff
I don't understand how 22C brings the opponent any lower. I can do this link, just not consistently. Nanaya's j.B has some really awkward hitbox, and has issues linking into j.C at lower heights

I'll just add my 2 cents about this, since I actually get asked this question a lot. First, let me say that you are not jump canceling the 22C, it is a link. It's not so much that the opponent is any lower, as Nanaya is lower and can avoid a rebeat penalty in the air string. Nanaya being lower means he lands a little faster after AT, and so you have a little more advantage. The link it self is not hard, but if they are teching, you may be jumping too late, attacking too late, or they may be too high b/c you did not build sufficient gravity in the ground string. I don't think you can use 22C this way off every confirm. You need gravity, but I'm not sure exactly how many hits you need for that gravity.

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Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2013, 01:19:26 PM »
Right, about the number of hits, I'd say 2B 5C 2C 5BB 22C (5 hits) is the boundary between difficult and easy. I drop it from a 2B starter occasionally, but if I do a 2A beforehand (6 hits) it's pretty much impossible to drop.

The effective range of 2C in combos is pretty short, so if you are trying to confirm a max range 2B (a situation when you aren't using a 2A starter), you wouldn't be using this combo anyways. Again, I don't play CNana, but I'd imagine that at max 2B range, you'd do the 214B corner combo (2B 5C 214B TKj.22 214B 2C 214A) or 2B 5C 214B (you can IAD into more stuff if you're close enough). At close range you'd probably do 5BC 2CB j.BCA sdj.BC66 Airthrow or the sideswap 214B combo.

So basically, what I'm saying is that I don't really use 22C in combos except to connect a 236C or for a 214B sideswap combo. Then again, my Nanaya is the worst.

EDIT: Never mind, even 2C 5BB 22C (3 hits) is braindead easy if you delay the 5BB enough. I guess you should just delay 5BB. :V
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 01:31:03 PM by Sacchin 22A »
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Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2013, 01:27:42 PM »
Thanks guys, I was aware it wasn't a jump cancel, but I use "jc" to annotate any point in a combo where you have to jump, force of habit I guess. The tip about the gravity really helped though, this is my first time with such a mechanism.
So another couple things, if you guys don't mind.
<1> What DO I do with Cheese Slicer? I'm hoarding meter right now solely for 623C in the corner, but I'm clueless on advanced meter combos midscreen.
<2> Likewise, is our meterless corner combo really 2C>214B>j.22>2C>214A? It seems kinda unrewarding considering the execution. Perhaps some super meaty 50/50 oki setup?
<3> I'm on netplay, and I actually have difficulty teching, such as after an invalid Ciel 214B>Hiero. In Blazblue, we mashed to tech, and that works fine in the air in this game. However, I am constantly plaqued by ground knockdowns and air-unblockables, both which should be more than easy to avoid.
<4> Does A mashing beat grabs in this game? Because grab oki seems stupidly effective for some reason.
EDIT:
2C 5BB 22C (3 hits) is braindead easy if you delay the 5BB enough. I guess you should just delay 5BB. :V
Even against Neco-Arc? Some characters in this game have stupid hitboxes.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 01:32:01 PM by hipikachu »

Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2013, 02:05:01 PM »
1. 236A is a decent blockstring tool. I think it's -1 or neutral on block. You can move during it too, so you can space yourself so that your 2B beats their 2A clean. 236B can be used to setup his AAD, I believe. Pretty sure it's just gimmick tier. As for combos, you're out of luck.

2. (5B) 2B 5C 214B TKj.22 214B 2C 214A is the most practical combo you're gonna get. You can 29 j.22 for a 50/50. Or you can walk forward a tiny bit 29 IAD for a strange 50/50 mixup that no one does. You can go for damage combos instead, of course.

3. Air techs are a 4/5/6+A/B/C . Ground techs are just 4/8/6. Invalid doesn't mean that you can tech, but rather that you could have teched sometime in the past, so even if it says invalid, you're probably still gotta be in an untechable knockdown. Generally, you want to tech at parts in their combos when you think they might drop it. C/F Satsuki 623[A] j.[C], FArc 236B 2C, C/F Sion j.[C] j.[C], etc. Eventually, you learn where a character usually drops a combo and know when you're likely to be able to tech. 'Cause normally, if you're allowed to tech, it's probably a trap. You tech Hisui's air combo? You just air teched against Tager while magnetized.

4. Mashing 2A beats grabs probably 90% of the time. On wakeup, it should beat grabs 100% of the time (except maybe for characters like FRyougi or Himes who have 7-8f 2As). Also, when you wake up, you have a few (4? 6? 8?) frames of throw invuln. Same for after you leave blockstun.

EDIT: It's okay, most combos whiff on NA. Shouldn't worry about it.

EDIT: Actually, it works fine on NA. It's actually easier. Maybe there'll be problems with Ryougi, Riesbyfe, or Kouma, 'cause they have strange air hitboxes.

EDIT: Also forgot to mention 623BB combos. Worth considering if you're cornered and you managed to poke out. Just do some forward moving at the end and 623BB.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 03:14:29 PM by Sacchin 22A »
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Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2013, 03:09:35 PM »
3. Air techs are a 4/5/6+A/B/C . Ground techs are just 4/8/6. Invalid doesn't mean that you can tech, but rather that you could have teched sometime in the past, so even if it says invalid, you're probably still gotta be in an untechable knockdown.
Exactly, but I really should not be failing to tech as many times as I have. Back to the Ciel 214B>Hiero example; it's a two-hit link, and invalid. Therefore, I should be able to easily tech out of the 214B, block immediately, and punish Hiero. However, it doesn't work out for me like that. Should I be mashing 8 whenever I'm in hitstun? I'm not used to have to use seperate techs for the ground and air specifically.

Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2013, 03:21:29 PM »
I don't know what you mean by Ciel 214B ExHiero. Do you mean if it hits you out of the air?

EDIT: Eh, the point of that question is that you'd need to do 8+A or something like that if you're teching from the air. Air is pressing an attack button with optional direction input (4 and 6). Ground is just 4, 6, or 8 for back, forward, and neutral tech.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 03:44:57 PM by Sacchin 22A »
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Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2013, 09:41:09 AM »
EDIT: Also forgot to mention 623BB combos. Worth considering if you're cornered and you managed to poke out. Just do some forward moving at the end and 623BB.
You can combo off of 623BB? I thought that was Full Moon only. Also, is 5[C] and 5B[B ] the only overheads you can combo off of?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 11:06:12 AM by hipikachu »

Offline Sashi

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C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2013, 10:02:32 AM »
No, but it's a reasonable combo ender since it throws them behind you.

And yes, 5B[B] and 5[C] are your overhead combo starters. Jump ins too, of course.
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Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2013, 11:08:32 AM »
This seems more like a "Help hipikachu" thread than a general discussion~

I also seem to have a lot more success with Half-Moon in terms of picking up and playing though. Not only is 5B a good poke thats safe on block, I can easily reset pressure with 214B mid blockstring. Not to mention his combos are more damaging, easier to pull off, and have better oki with meter. Is this to be expected?

Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2013, 11:29:11 AM »
Pretty expected. H has a way better time in neutral than C. You can do a lot with C, but it takes a lot more effort. H is very simple and does a ton of damage.
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Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2013, 11:58:29 AM »
I found this in the Wiki:
(Corner) 2B 5C 214B 9 j.B j.BC j.BC AT
How is this possible  :psyduck:

Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 12:03:24 PM »
You jump cancel the 214B (wallslam version) and do a late j.B, land, then jump and pick them up with j.B and continue the combo.
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 12:12:40 PM »
<2> Likewise, is our meterless corner combo really 2C>214B>j.22>2C>214A? It seems kinda unrewarding considering the execution. Perhaps some super meaty 50/50 oki setup?

His double 214B stuff does good damage, but a lot of chars in this game have to sacrifice damage for oki.

<3> I'm on netplay, and I actually have difficulty teching, such as after an invalid Ciel 214B>Hiero. In Blazblue, we mashed to tech, and that works fine in the air in this game. However, I am constantly plaqued by ground knockdowns and air-unblockables, both which should be more than easy to avoid.

For ground techs, you can hold the direction to tech. For air techs, you have to time direction + button. And, if you are teching before a hiero, chances are, you are going to get tech punished by the hiero.

<4> Does A mashing beat grabs in this game? Because grab oki seems stupidly effective for some reason.

4. Mashing 2A beats grabs probably 90% of the time. On wakeup, it should beat grabs 100% of the time (except maybe for characters like FRyougi or Himes who have 7-8f 2As). Also, when you wake up, you have a few (4? 6? 8?) frames of throw invuln. Same for after you leave blockstun.

In general mashing on wake-up in going to beat throws, since melty has throw protection on wake-up which lasts 8 frames after wake-up. and you do NOT benefit from throw protection after block stun, you just cannot throw people in block stun. For instance, you get a hard down, you meaty 2A, delay, throw. There wont be time to poke this, as all move have more start-up than throw.

Not only is 5B a good poke thats safe on block, I can easily reset pressure with 214B mid blockstring. Not to mention his combos are more damaging, easier to pull off, and have better oki with meter.

H-moon 214B is not plus on block, so resetting with it will prolly get you mashed out.

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Offline Tonberry

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 12:25:33 PM »
<1> What DO I do with Cheese Slicer? I'm hoarding meter right now solely for 623C in the corner, but I'm clueless on advanced meter combos midscreen.

You can use 236a as an anti air and confirm it into 236c on hit.  In the corner you can do blah blah 214b j22 2c 5c 236c 2c 214a.

you do NOT benefit from throw protection after block stun, you just cannot throw people in block stun. For instance, you get a hard down, you meaty 2A, delay, throw. There wont be time to poke this, as all move have more start-up than throw.

 >:( There's like 13f of throw protection after blockstun.  Anything --> throw will not beat 2a mashing. 
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Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 12:27:33 PM »
I tried it a few times with Aoko 421 orbs (same concept as a meaty 2A) and I've never had the throw beat a 2A.

EDIT: By the way, I found this video while looking for cool CNana tricks. Didn't know Leo had a solid Cana.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 12:40:14 PM by Sacchin 22A »
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2013, 12:55:23 PM »
Guess it's just me then. I can't mash people out of this. I get thrown 100% of the time. I call tick throw and start mashing, and get thrown. I EX-Gaurd C-Arc 5A and start mashing the dash in and still get thrown.

Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »
@ the bolded: I don't get it. Explain.
I typed in 5[C] and 5B[B ]. The [B ] without the space after the 'B', automatically bolds the rest of my sentence for no good reason.

EDIT: Oops, you meant your bolded quote. Well, I know H-Moon 214x not safe per say, but I've been able to use it in frametraps against 2A mashy friends, along with whenever I'm desperate to cover the knockback distance after a long blockstring. While it is punishable on block, it's nowhere near as  :bricks:
a blocked C-Moon 214B.

For ground techs, you can hold the direction to tech. For air techs, you have to time direction + button. And, if you are teching before a hiero, chances are, you are going to get tech punished by the hiero.
Wait, I can't air tech, block EX Hiero, and punish with combo? This isn't high-level play I'm talking about. This is my friend having below average execution and dropping a combo, and me not teching out in time.

BTW guys,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ne8KvPvkCHU#t=39s
So it DOES combo into stuff.

Another thing, does shield have any startup? It kinda feels like Hakumen's 5D, which is like 5 frames. It would be nice if I could airtech, and shield air-unblockables immediately.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:19:01 PM by hipikachu »

Offline Sashi

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2013, 01:23:20 PM »
Well, it's an AD. It's also spacing dependent. Also does less than 236A 623C(6)~C.

EDIT: Shields are instant. Techs have long recovery, though. In general, teching is bad. Air teching in the corner is especially bad. Teching against characters like Hisui, Len, etc, is super duper bad. IT'S ALWAYS A TRAP!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 01:33:36 PM by Sacchin 22A »
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Offline hipikachu

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2013, 09:07:11 AM »
236A 623C(6)~C.
623C(6)~C :psyduck:
IT'S ALWAYS A TRAP!
I guess it really must be that bad if high-level players are actually telling me to avoid teching in a competitive fighting game. I still have nightmares of Atomic Collider even though I play Hazama.

You have to hit the first j.B close to the ground then land and immediately buffer a jump into the standard air combo. Pretty sure it's easier if you do an IAD after the forward jump (9). Not sure if it's even worth it though, to be honest.
I thought this game didn't allow you to jump cancel twice within the same combo? Jump cancel after 214B to j.B, and then again after relaunch.

Also, what is the magic oki/meaty I can do off a 214A ender, since everyone is so insistent on using that ender? That, and what is the optimal followup to 5[C]? I'm kinda stuck with 5[C]>5A>air combo right now.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 09:12:50 AM by hipikachu »

Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2013, 10:01:54 AM »
IT'S ALWAYS A TRAP!
I guess it really must be that bad if high-level players are actually telling me to avoid teching in a competitive fighting game. I still have nightmares of Atomic Collider even though I play Hazama.

There are situations were air teching is a good idea, like when you still have all your air movement. Ground teching almost always can be punished, but you will learn just by playing when it might be a good idea to tech.

You have to hit the first j.B close to the ground then land and immediately buffer a jump into the standard air combo. Pretty sure it's easier if you do an IAD after the forward jump (9). Not sure if it's even worth it though, to be honest.
I thought this game didn't allow you to jump cancel twice within the same combo? Jump cancel after 214B to j.B, and then again after relaunch.

Also, what is the magic oki/meaty I can do off a 214A ender, since everyone is so insistent on using that ender? That, and what is the optimal followup to 5[C]? I'm kinda stuck with 5[C]>5A>air combo right now.

Well you are jump canceling the 214B, but once you hit the j.B and land, you have to link the jump after the short landing recovery into another aerial. So the jump after land is not a jump cancel.

The oki off 214A usually involves super jump fast fall 50/50 mix-ups. Depending on timing of the fast fall and sometimes what super jump you do (29 / 28) you could land on either side of them with j.22. Once you land, you can hit them meaty with the normal of your choice, or go for more risky BE5C or Teleport stuff or tick throw.

What I see most of the time after BE5C is just jump cancel and air combo. But there may be other options involving 236C/623C that get you more damage or a set-up. I'm not so sure on that as I'm not too familiar with this guy.

Offline Tonberry

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Re: C-Nanaya General Discussion
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2013, 10:03:41 AM »
I guess it really must be that bad if high-level players are actually telling me to avoid teching in a competitive fighting game. I still have nightmares of Atomic Collider even though I play Hazama.

A number of characters have ground techable enders or moves near the end of their combos that can be ground teched and also have ways to cover numerous tech directions.  Here's an example of that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXQ_3FleZhM

It's still usually fine to ground tech if you know your opponent screwed up his combo but otherwise it's a huge risk.

Air techs on the other hand are fine almost all the time. 
 
I thought this game didn't allow you to jump cancel twice within the same combo? Jump cancel after 214B to j.B, and then again after relaunch.

You can't jump cancel off of a ground normal twice within the same combo. 

Also, what is the magic oki/meaty I can do off a 214A ender, since everyone is so insistent on using that ender? That, and what is the optimal followup to 5[C]? I'm kinda stuck with 5[C]>5A>air combo right now.

Off 214a ender you can do 29 j44 jC/j22 2b.  66 8 j44 jC.  66 8 land 2b.  You can always opt to land throw as well.  You can really do almost whatever you want after 214a ender since it gives so much knockdown time.

You can do 5[C] 5B air combo instead.  If you're further away you can do 5[C] 236A 236C 2C 214A.
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