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Author Topic: General Strategies (for all moons)  (Read 13334 times)

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Offline Mistwraith

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2010, 04:58:51 PM »
5B is really a risk on whiff, the move itself has substantial recovery time. Personally, I still prefer C over to H due to her better air normals. I just can't bring myself to like the jC of her H version. Ryougi wise is still weak against people who can rush down really fast or those that have fast and long range moves, Kohaku, Mech Hisui.

Ryougi doesn't have much advantage over Hisui too. I say it is the other way round instead with Hisui having more misc stuff to keep Ryougi down in check with faster air normals.

Offline Nas

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2010, 08:39:27 PM »
no this matchup i feel is in ryougi's favor.. the only thing hisui has on you picnic trap setups and maybe some range tools.. her block strings aren't that hard to read just look for overhead and break throws her combos do little even to ryougi.. and her guard breaking isn't that strong (unlike ryougi's)  and once you get momentum.. it's hard for hisui to do anything about it unless she does bunkers/Saturday night fever/heat ... you outrange her as far as normal..( i think i can say this for each moon, but i do know i out range her in F).. even with her projectiles, in F you can just dash 2C (possibly), or 3C underneath.. F 3C has a  mad low hitbox...
Basically... kind of a big deal....

Offline Shlowpoke

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2010, 12:22:11 PM »
I've been meaning to post this for a while:  I came up with a much more effective way to pressure with H-Ryougi.

I noticed that my pressure was really focused on getting as many ground hits as I possibly could while confirming into a combo, and this kept me at a range where it was very difficult to threaten grab or overhead or dash back in to continue pressure without using knife. So my pressure basically lost to patient ex-guarding.

The fix: short pressure strings that end with 3c
The cost: more effort for hit-confirms and slightly less damage

Basic string:
2a, 2b, 3c

After this, if you started it at point-blank, you're close enough to:
1) 5b (safe)
2) dash in and repeat
3) dash in and grab
4) overhead

My new standard pressure string (if I suspect disrespect) is:
2a, 2b, 3c ->
5b (delay)b*, 2c, 3c ->
5b, 5c, 2c, 22a ->
whatever
And at any point I could dash in to grab or reset pressure.

*The delay after 5b is for hit-confirming attempted jump-outs. You can actually delay that second hit of 5b for a pretty long time and still combo.

Offline Rei

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2010, 09:41:01 PM »
I've been meaning to post this for a while:  I came up with a much more effective way to pressure with H-Ryougi.

I noticed that my pressure was really focused on getting as many ground hits as I possibly could while confirming into a combo, and this kept me at a range where it was very difficult to threaten grab or overhead or dash back in to continue pressure without using knife. So my pressure basically lost to patient ex-guarding.

The fix: short pressure strings that end with 3c
The cost: more effort for hit-confirms and slightly less damage

Basic string:
2a, 2b, 3c

After this, if you started it at point-blank, you're close enough to:
1) 5b (safe)
2) dash in and repeat
3) dash in and grab
4) overhead

My new standard pressure string (if I suspect disrespect) is:
2a, 2b, 3c ->
5b (delay)b*, 2c, 3c ->
5b, 5c, 2c, 22a ->
whatever
And at any point I could dash in to grab or reset pressure.

*The delay after 5b is for hit-confirming attempted jump-outs. You can actually delay that second hit of 5b for a pretty long time and still combo.

Don't forget 4C overhead. you can do stuff like at point blank. 2A 5B 2B 4C 22A which is pretty easy to hit confirm.

also options 2 and 3 get beaten by stuff like Kohaku mash out 5C and other fast mid-ranged attacks. You should try to stick with long strings IMO, 22A is pretty gdlk with how much + you get with it and then you can throw in the short strings when your opponent is used to the long ones. Like, you can start with stuff like 2A 2B 3C and yeah, you can pretty much select what you want to do via flow chart method. I personally like to do strings which won't reverse beat just so I can keep my damage up.

tl;dr version, use short AND long strings. especially since Ryougi's attacks auto stagger.
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Offline Dipstick

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2010, 07:33:09 PM »
Don't get me wrong. I think C is playable and has some pretty cool tools, but a character with a health bar as bad as Ryougi benefits greatly from better zoning, and that's where H and F shine. I personally think their execution is a bit easier as well.
You sir, are on crack. H-Ryougi has easier than C? On what planet? Maybe if I you consider having to learn different timing and different loops on every single character in the game easier, or you're OK with getting 2500 damage.

Regarding H-Ryougi 3C (why they gave her a normal that's +initiative on block is beyond me, orz), let's break this out into an action matrix. Let's say your opponent's options after blocking the 3C are to mash, dodge, backdash, jump, or DP (basically, they're doing anything BUT block). Positive numbers represent damage Ryougi does, negative numbers represent damage Ryougi takes. These numbers assumes she has her knife to throw.

.....MashDodgeBackdashJumpDP
5B+4500+15000+2500+4500
dash 2AAAA-4000+4500+4500-2000-2000
dash throw-4000+1200+1200-4500-2000
overhead+2000+1000-4000+1500+2000

Yeah, I didn't include shields, I'm lazy. And I'm too lazy to actually SOLVE for this table right now. :p

Now, the numbers for 2A look a lot better if you're close enough that you DON'T have to dash in (so why not do 2C3C?), because now it at least beats mashing. However, if you are using the 3C frametrap to go into 2A/5B/overhead, it then loses to DPs and dodges a LOT more.

If the character is airborne during their backdash, 2A and throwing look a fair bit worse in those spots.
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Offline Rei

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2010, 02:17:19 AM »
Actually, you can usually get like 2.5k+ I thought off of overhead normally. Stuff like 4C 22A 5B into air combo. I don't think overhead beats DP seeing is it's range isn't nearly as good as 5B's nor does it have the clash frames that 5B has to offer to beat some DPs.

And yeah, C-Ryougi is definitely easier with the combos. Custom combo loops aren't really that hard nor are things like the really good oki setup ending in 236C. Her BnB is pretty easy as well.

She just doesn't have the +frame tools that H Ryougi has, as well as several loops. But C-Ryougi has some REALLY scary staggers.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 02:22:26 AM by Rei »
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<@SilentShinobi> the double down is the black man's lethal kryptonite

Offline Shlowpoke

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2010, 06:18:09 AM »
You sir, are on crack. H-Ryougi has easier than C? On what planet? Maybe if I you consider having to learn different timing and different loops on every single character in the game easier, or you're OK with getting 2500 damage.
The sweep loop is pretty much the hardest thing H-Ryougi can do, and the 63214c 4c whiff ender into air combo is pretty much the hardest thing C-Ryougi can do, imo. Even considering the timing varies on many characters, I find the sweep loop easier, personally. That's pretty much all I meant. Also it seems like H-Ryougi has a little bit more time to link her normals together than C. Not a big deal, though.

(some crazy math shit)

Now, the numbers for 2A look a lot better if you're close enough that you DON'T have to dash in (so why not do 2C3C?), because now it at least beats mashing. However, if you are using the 3C frametrap to go into 2A/5B/overhead, it then loses to DPs and dodges a LOT more.

So, you're pretty much just saying that dash-in 2a after 3c isn't safe, and that 5b loses to sidestep and DPs? Isn't it obvious that dash-in anything can get mashed out, 5b loses to sidestep, and that DPs beat anything except blocking and the occasional 5b clash?

Am I missing something? Maybe I haven't taken enough math classes.

Offline Sima Matty

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2010, 06:58:45 PM »
Actually, you can usually get like 2.5k+ I thought off of overhead normally. Stuff like 4C 22A 5B into air combo.
I actually got curious about what's the max H-Ryougi can do off an overhead, and decided to test it.

Seems like the max I can do is 3399 (2.4k fully reduced) while landing on the knife without using meter.  Can she do more than this?  Obviously this was done in the corner...

4c 22a 5bb 214a 5bb jbc jbc j236b

Sometimes, if you use 5c instead of the second 5bb and wait a bit after landing the first 5bb you'll be behind the opponent.  Apologizes if this has already been discussed somewhere or if this was common knowledge.

Offline Nandeyanen

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2010, 07:41:05 PM »
It is character dependent. You can go into a sweep loop or partial sweep loop on some characters. Otherwise, the follow up I generally use is 4c 22a [2c 3c 623b]x3 236a 236a 236a 22a (pick up). You can also go for an air combo if preferred, just omit the last 623b, and instead go into 5c 5bb j.bc dj.b6bc j.236b.

Actually, you can usually get like 2.5k+ I thought off of overhead normally. Stuff like 4C 22A 5B into air combo.
I actually got curious about what's the max H-Ryougi can do off an overhead, and decided to test it.

Seems like the max I can do is 3399 (2.4k fully reduced) while landing on the knife without using meter.  Can she do more than this?  Obviously this was done in the corner...

4c 22a 5bb 214a 5bb jbc jbc j236b

Sometimes, if you use 5c instead of the second 5bb and wait a bit after landing the first 5bb you'll be behind the opponent.  Apologizes if this has already been discussed somewhere or if this was common knowledge.

Offline Rei

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2010, 09:42:57 PM »
Lol, I also switched from C to H recently.  H is just so much better and way more fun to play as imo.  Plus everyone around my area already knows how to avoid the unblockables.  :prinny:

I kinda seem to have problems fighting C/H-Sion and H-VSion.  I dunno if it's just me though but those characters' rush down games are a fucking bitch to deal with, especially considering Ryougi's poor reversal options.  Am I doing something wrong or is this actually a hard matchup?

Hisui is a pretty easy matchup in my experience, same with Nero.  Don't have much to say about other chars.

I've recently had more matches with sp00ky's H-VSion and several other characters who are good at rushdown. All I can say is that you have to put them on the defensive. That's your only option, because giving them the momentum will make you gasping for air and space. Way too many frame traps and Ryougi's mid-range/long-range normals have too much startup. You almost have to try to get shields and crap like that in. But yeah, just remember about their meter (bunkers, EX reversals, etc) and you will do alright. I got destroyed by sp00ky because he usually has enough to bunker and I suck at baiting it :/. That and his offense + pressure is goddamn scary.
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Offline Numakie

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2011, 12:39:15 AM »
Thought it would be best to ask here.

How do you... not... throw the knife with her 214A?  It annoys me when I throw it during combos.
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Offline BurstOfAnger

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2011, 04:29:05 AM »
Ryougi never throws her knife in her 214 moves. Are you sure you're not accidentally inputting 63214 instead? Her 63214 moves gets her to jump, turn upside-down, then throw her knife, a somewhat similar animation with her 214 moves.
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Offline Numakie

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2011, 11:27:23 AM »
Ryougi never throws her knife in her 214 moves. Are you sure you're not accidentally inputting 63214 instead? Her 63214 moves gets her to jump, turn upside-down, then throw her knife, a somewhat similar animation with her 214 moves.
Ahh. Didn't know 63214 is a part of her move list. Sucks cuz it overlaps her 214.  That prolly explains why I keep throwing the knife accidently. 
 Thanks alot .
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Offline dumba989

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Re: General Strategies (for all moons)
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2011, 01:33:35 PM »
Ryougi never throws her knife in her 214 moves. Are you sure you're not accidentally inputting 63214 instead? Her 63214 moves gets her to jump, turn upside-down, then throw her knife, a somewhat similar animation with her 214 moves.
Ahh. Didn't know 63214 is a part of her move list. Sucks cuz it overlaps her 214.  That prolly explains why I keep throwing the knife accidently. 
 Thanks alot .

Yeah I was having issues doing that last night as well, which is stupid to me why they would give her a knife throwing move with almost the same command.
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