Melty Bread Forums
Atlas Academy => Melty Blood: Actress Again => Shiki Ryougi => : FataCon April 14, 2010, 05:01:27 PM
When's Melty on Steam?
ahaha that's no--wait, what?
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The general consensus for using Ryougi is to get in, pressure with blockstrings, and hopefully get a combo for big damage (as if thats not the goal with every character... :psyduck: )
However, half the battle is "getting in" in the first place. This can tend to be a bit difficult with zoning characters like Nero or characters who can easily pressure you into a defensive stance like Akiha. In these cases, how would a Ryougi player successfully run the match in their favor? Without much of a fallback defensive tactic, I find it difficult to get out of corner traps/pressure. Sometimes, on whiff reaction, I'll 236C to get out of a corner, which, i know is terrible :-\ . Lack of consistent, competent human play is seriously detrimental to learning...
So, how do you all play Ryougi? I figured since, overall throughout the moons, she doesn't change drastically as compared to other characters, i would open up a new thread for it. Seems like most other moon-specific threads are mostly about combos, blockstrings and various pokes but nothing comprehensive as far as how she should generally be played, especially against difficult matchups.
*note* if there are important tidbits from other threads that could go in here, feel free to repost them here for those of us who would like to go over strategy without wading through other things.
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For the approach there's a few options:
623 series (c and h): loses out to projectiles and reach but beats shield bunker/counter (and guard if C).
jump in with j.b/c: probably the better option, loses to anti-air. Strongest in F (godly j.b), weakest in C.
dash in with 5/6c: I haven't really tried this much so I'm unsure of how effective it is.
421 series (c only): Not really the best choice since you can't cancel it if you see an attack coming at you but I use it because I like to be gimmicky. 421c is the best of them.
For getting out of the corner I prefer either jumping out or 2b/c (b for priority, c for just getting out of the corner since it moves forward so much).
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The way that I play Ryougi in half is to play air footsies until I can push them to the corner. Sometimes I'll even sacrifice a potential air combo into j.236B and then followup with IAD j.C. The combos I use also vary from midscreen to corner; I don't really throw the knife unless I'm sure I can get it back (e.g. really far away); during corner combos; or close to killing them. Most of my pokes include 2A, 5B, j.B and j.C. Outside of her normals, I somewhat rarely tend to use the 236A series, 214A, or 623A every once in a while. 22A (ground) and 22B (air) are the only specials I use primarily for offense, with the rekka series on standby if they're close to being guard crushed.
236C isn't a bad idea, since it's safe and pushes out...but it's not invincible on startup, meaning it can get beaten out by meaties. I tend to use 236C on particular combo enders for tech punishes. If you like using EX moves to get out of stuff, I'd recommend j.236C or her Arc Drive.
For defense, I try to input 5A whenever I smell a sandoori, j.236B_j.236C for wakeup (if they're approaching via air) and the occasional 421B parry for ground based rush ins. 5D shield counter for predictable jump ins and 214D shield bunker for blockstring pressure are the other things I fall back on in a pinch. I always try to hover between 80~150% meter, since one simple combo or blockstring can rebuild 100% meter easily.
One thing I try to do whenever I'm in midscreen pressure is to backstep in between strings. If I'm in the corner, I'll look for 5A or 2A whiff cancels and punish with 5BB. If they get pushed out but don't cancel with 5A or 2A, I'll jump back and then land with j.C if they charge in or jump out and dash away if possible.
I hardly use throws at all, but might incorporate them in the future after a corner air throw.
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623 series (c and h): loses out to projectiles and reach but beats shield bunker/counter (and guard if C).
623 does not lose out to particular projectiles; namely Full Aoko and Crescent / Full Nero. If you can 623 under a projectile, then you can similarly run underneath them as well. Not that it's worth doing all the time; a blocked 623 anything will put you on defense faster than white on rice.
jump in with j.b/c: probably the better option, loses to anti-air. Strongest in F (godly j.b), weakest in C.
Crescent has the best air normal options out of the moons. Don't discount them. Crescent j.B hits on boths sides a lot more effectively for sandoori games, plus it's the only moon with a repeatable j.A. What moon are you referring to at the beginning?
dash in with 5/6c: I haven't really tried this much so I'm unsure of how effective it is.
Again, what moon are you referring to? That doesn't sound like a smart idea since it's so slow...
421 series (c only): Not really the best choice since you can't cancel it if you see an attack coming at you but I use it because I like to be gimmicky. 421c is the best of them.
421C is almost godlike. Kinda like Crescent Miyako's 236C.
For getting out of the corner I prefer either jumping out or 2b/c (b for priority, c for just getting out of the corner since it moves forward so much).
Again, what moon are you referring to? 2B is useful in Full only, and 2C is kinda iffy across all the moons. 2B is slower than 5B in Half and Crescent.
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623 series (c and h): loses out to projectiles and reach but beats shield bunker/counter (and guard if C).
623 does not lose out to particular projectiles; namely Full Aoko and Crescent / Full Nero. If you can 623 under a projectile, then you can similarly run underneath them as well. Not that it's worth doing all the time; a blocked 623 anything will put you on defense faster than white on rice.
True enough, I was thinking more along the lines of Ciel's black keys. I will also add that I think Ryougi has a advantage over Aoko, particularly F.
jump in with j.b/c: probably the better option, loses to anti-air. Strongest in F (godly j.b), weakest in C.
Crescent has the best air normal options out of the moons. Don't discount them. Crescent j.B hits on boths sides a lot more effectively for sandoori games, plus it's the only moon with a repeatable j.A. What moon are you referring to at the beginning?
I'm trying to refer to all the moons here, in my opinion Full's j.b beats Crescent and Half because of pure range. I'd have to check the hitbox but I think you are right that C's is better for Sandoori.
dash in with 5/6c: I haven't really tried this much so I'm unsure of how effective it is.
Again, what moon are you referring to? That doesn't sound like a smart idea since it's so slow...
I'm just listing options, I never said it was a good one. It probably works better in C.
421 series (c only): Not really the best choice since you can't cancel it if you see an attack coming at you but I use it because I like to be gimmicky. 421c is the best of them.
421C is almost godlike. Kinda like Crescent Miyako's 236C.
I agree with this statement.
For getting out of the corner I prefer either jumping out or 2b/c (b for priority, c for just getting out of the corner since it moves forward so much).
Again, what moon are you referring to? 2B is useful in Full only, and 2C is kinda iffy across all the moons. 2B is slower than 5B in Half and Crescent.
I agree that 2c is iffy, I don't really recommend it unless you're sure you can get away if it whiffs. (if it's blocked cancel into 421c or something) but the main danger is being poked out. I don't know about the differences between 5 and 2b but I use 2b because I prefer crouching attacks. I didn't mean that it was the best priority available.
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Thanks for such quick replys, you guys. It's really helpful to see the kind of options Ryougi has.
I'll be speaking mostly for C-Ryougi since that's the version I have the most experience with.
As far as the 421/214 moves, I tend to use them at a minimum. A whiff leaves you open for centuries and I haven't found any good use for 214 outside of combos (works great to extend corner combos after a 5BB).
I feel like Ryougi doesn't have a strong air game. When spacing and fighting for air control, it seems like she loses a lot of aerial poke battles. In comparison to characters who thrive off of air counter hits like Shiki, I feel like Ryougi plays a much better game with her feet planted on the ground. Though, I have a hard time locking down someone to stay there. Any tips?
dash in with 5/6c: I haven't really tried this much so I'm unsure of how effective it is.
Speaking for crescent only, both 5C and 6C have startup that you should be aware of, and I hardly find myself using 6C unless it's in a combo after 2C (if you're in the corner, you're better off using a 2369B instead).
2C is good every now and then against those who run in since it has fairly long reach (almost half-screen zoomed in), just be careful of whiffing this. On block, you can always turn it into a block string, and if the opponent respects your pressure you can throw in an unblockable in there somewhere.
Last question for now, do you guys ever find yourself using 5A over 2A? I wish she had a 5A like Arc :(
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Last question for now, do you guys ever find yourself using 5A over 2A? I wish she had a 5A like Arc :(
I wish she had a 5A like VSion :(
And to answer your question: no, I don't use 5A as a stand alone poke on the ground. It whiffs on crouchers (in Half). Crescent should reserve those 5A for whiff cancels, imo.
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I'm seeing some bad information in this thread.
However, half the battle is "getting in" in the first place. This can tend to be a bit difficult with zoning characters like Nero or characters who can easily pressure you into a defensive stance like Akiha. In these cases, how would a Ryougi player successfully run the match in their favor?
Getting in is almost NEVER hard for Ryougi. No matter what moon it is. Her normals are so good that you pretty much ARE zoning with them. They come out fast and have good range. It's pretty easy to get in. Nero? Well, you have to block him a bit, but a dash 5BB will will clash against his spacing tools like 6C (though 5B beats a lot, but it also extends his hitbox(!!!) unlike your knives. Ryougi can stay at a distance very safely and really wait to see what people are going to do. All Ryougis play very similarly. Pressure pressure pressure.
Without much of a fallback defensive tactic, I find it difficult to get out of corner traps/pressure. Sometimes, on whiff reaction, I'll 236C to get out of a corner, which, i know is terrible :-\ . Lack of consistent, competent human play is seriously detrimental to learning...
236C isn't safe. in fact, on the first few frames they can mash 2A and hit you out of it if you're the one under pressure. I'll do it if they're jumping in at me on oki or something like that.
For the approach there's a few options:
623 series (c and h): loses out to projectiles and reach but beats shield bunker/counter (and guard if C).
No... Just no... You only get a combo off certain distance or counter hit (for the B version), but both versions are - on block. Never use them like that. Your dash is good enough.
jump in with j.b/c: probably the better option, loses to anti-air. Strongest in F (godly j.b), weakest in C.
j.b with C-Ryougi is pretty good. Good distance, comes out fairly quickly and can hit behind her allowing her some of her mixups. All Ryougis have great air normals.
dash in with 5/6c: I haven't really tried this much so I'm unsure of how effective it is.
With C? No... Don't do it, especially not 6C.
421 series (c only): Not really the best choice since you can't cancel it if you see an attack coming at you but I use it because I like to be gimmicky. 421c is the best of them.
They are gimmick attacks which are beaten by dodge. You can use it against f moon characters though. Shield works against it, but for the B and C version, you can jump cancel them on hit/block/shield.
For getting out of the corner I prefer either jumping out or 2b/c (b for priority, c for just getting out of the corner since it moves forward so much).
2B is way too slow... For getting out of the corner, I block until there is a good opening. Usually force myself out of the corner with 5B (with C-Ryougi)
Ryougi has no good reversal. She has to block, you need to block and figure out ways to get out of pressure (since no character's pressure is impossible to get out of). You just have to make smart decisions, and mashing 2A CAN work, but it should be rarely done. I'm a fan of doing shield 236C (since I'm not too good at EX Shielding yet). Though a universal shield option is ex shield 5A. (Though 5A sucks with Ryougi, so I'm thinking maybe 5B?)
The way that I play Ryougi in half is to play air footsies until I can push them to the corner. Sometimes I'll even sacrifice a potential air combo into j.236B and then followup with IAD j.C. The combos I use also vary from midscreen to corner; I don't really throw the knife unless I'm sure I can get it back (e.g. really far away); during corner combos; or close to killing them. Most of my pokes include 2A, 5B, j.B and j.C. Outside of her normals, I somewhat rarely tend to use the 236A series, 214A, or 623A every once in a while. 22A (ground) and 22B (air) are the only specials I use primarily for offense, with the rekka series on standby if they're close to being guard crushed.
That's pretty true to what you should be doing. The corner is Ryougi's best friend if you're facing it, especially H Ryougi. Though she can do loops from anywhere on screen. The last 214X of the rekka series can also be super cancelled, so a good way to end a blockstring is with that low kick into 22C. Really good for a mixup there too. Mixup as in attack/throw. Yes, ground throw is legit for Ryougi since it has some retarded properties to where you can't mash out of it unless it's a reversal. I now primarily use my knife for A. Pressure. Or B. Comboing my opponent from one corner to the other.
236C isn't a bad idea, since it's safe and pushes out...but it's not invincible on startup, meaning it can get beaten out by meaties. I tend to use 236C on particular combo enders for tech punishes. If you like using EX moves to get out of stuff, I'd recommend j.236C or her Arc Drive.
^this. j.236C is a reversal which you are invincible through. Also no landing animation. Arc drive is REALLY risky due to start up. Ryougi's best option on wakeup is to block, but for getting out of mid pressure, I'd say j.236C is legit. I should run that a lot more honestly.
For defense, I try to input 5A whenever I smell a sandoori, j.236B_j.236C for wakeup (if they're approaching via air) and the occasional 421B parry for ground based rush ins. 5D shield counter for predictable jump ins and 214D shield bunker for blockstring pressure are the other things I fall back on in a pinch. I always try to hover between 80~150% meter, since one simple combo or blockstring can rebuild 100% meter easily.
Only comment on this chunk is that a good sandoori will beat 5A. If your 5A is working, it's probably because the person you're facing doesn't have the timing of the mixup on Ryougi down. It's different for her since she gets up a LOT faster than everyone else.
One thing I try to do whenever I'm in midscreen pressure is to backstep in between strings. If I'm in the corner, I'll look for 5A or 2A whiff cancels and punish with 5BB. If they get pushed out but don't cancel with 5A or 2A, I'll jump back and then land with j.C if they charge in or jump out and dash away if possible.
yeah backdash is pretty standard on most characters. It's good for Ryougi too.
I hardly use throws at all, but might incorporate them in the future after a corner air throw.
Nah corner air throw isn't that good. It's good in pressure if you know your enemy is scared and is waiting for you to exhaust your resources.
Some general comments (this is coming from a C-Ryougi perspective)
Don't whiff moves. Ryougi's moves have some of the WORST recovery. Very easy to punish her B and C moves after they whiff.
your anti airs = 5B/5C/5D
5B is a godlike poke. It has everything you could ask for in an attack (except for + frames). It has clash and a huge hitbox. It's a great poke/anti air. 5C has a GREAT hit box as well. Comes out considerably slower than 5B, but still works with better hitboxes and keeps the clash frame (Though 5BB also has clash frames) 5D is a universal punish for obvious jump-ins. I shouldn't have to explain this.
Ground pokes = 2A/5B
Yes, these two are just about all you need for ground pokes. 2A is short ranged, but your quick low option, and 5B is a great spacing tool which can combo like 5BB 2C 5C at full range. Also 5B catches jump outs. use the followup for launcher properties for easy air combos, keeping your opponent afraid to jump out.
You can freestyle your pressure, but remember that C moves have more blockstun, 2C is good for catching backdashes. 2A2A2B2C is a decent stagger blockstring. well 2B pretty much auto staggers due to startup and 2C also staggers, but can combo from 2B so it's easy to hitconfirm into a 5BB, 5C, or 6C for launching.
6[C] is funny. Why? Well it's 6C is a low, and 6[C] is unblockable. Most people's reactions to charged moves are to start walking backwards (cause it's the normal reaction for high moves) and if you half charge you still hit them low. It's quite funny... The 214C followup is VERY good for oki mixups.
Either way.
This should be everyone's strategy. Drop C, play H.
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The general consensus for using Ryougi is to get in, pressure with blockstrings, and hopefully get a combo for big damage (as if thats not the goal with every character... :psyduck: )
However, half the battle is "getting in" in the first place. This can tend to be a bit difficult with zoning characters like Nero or characters who can easily pressure you into a defensive stance like Akiha. In these cases, how would a Ryougi player successfully run the match in their favor? Without much of a fallback defensive tactic, I find it difficult to get out of corner traps/pressure. Sometimes, on whiff reaction, I'll 236C to get out of a corner, which, i know is terrible :-\ . Lack of consistent, competent human play is seriously detrimental to learning...
So, how do you all play Ryougi? I figured since, overall throughout the moons, she doesn't change drastically as compared to other characters, i would open up a new thread for it. Seems like most other moon-specific threads are mostly about combos, blockstrings and various pokes but nothing comprehensive as far as how she should generally be played, especially against difficult matchups.
*note* if there are important tidbits from other threads that could go in here, feel free to repost them here for those of us who would like to go over strategy without wading through other things.
This is some stuff I do/I've noticed while playing Ryougi. Keep in mind that I play H-Ryougi, so a good chunk of this might not apply to C or F.
I generally use her long range to play footsies. My standard pokes are 2a and 5b. I find that Ryougi's ground to air attacks are pretty weak. As are her air to ground attacks. Best ground to air attack is probably 5a/5a6a, though its use is limited. Best air to ground attack is probably j.b or j.c (depends on positioning). It's general better to just go air to air/ground to ground against the opponent.
When I manage to get my opponent in a block string, I use 2a (whiff), 3c (unique to H-Ryougi), 421c (unique to H and F-Ryougi) and 22a to reset pressure. Ryougi doesn't have the greatest mix-up game, so I usually just mix in frame traps and anti-jump out attacks in my strings to punish people who try to jump out during the gaps.
Since H-Ryougi does a lot of guard damage, I will occasionally go for guard crushes, but if I'm playing against a C or F moon character, ex-guarding makes it very difficult (I'll guard crush unexpectedly, and land a hit confirm when I can't gatling any more).
On random hit confirms, I just go into some simple air combo. If I get a ground hit confirm midscreen, I will generally try to go for the damaging 623b loop. If I can land a corner BnB, I usually try to go for the oki setup in the corner, which leads to the fairly ambiguous roll mix up, or some sort of sandoori mix up. Depending on the the character/player/hp of the character I'm playing against, I might also go for the more damaging corner combo with weaker oki options.
Since Ryougi has no reversal, I basically have to guess/shield bunker to get out of pressure. Backdashing can be used to get out of pressure, or get a better position. Blocking is top tier. Since Ryougi has no health, try not to guess wrong. A full BnB from an opponent causes me to lose 50% of my health, if not more. Meter is reserved for shield bunker and heat so that I can regain health (to possibly live through more than 2 full combos) and for auto-burst.
Ryougi's BnBs gain you around 80-100 meter. Ryougi's character specific 2a 2c 3c combo can be used to gain even more meter. When doing her 2a 2c 3c loop combo, end the combo before 23 hits, as your opponent starts getting significant meter gain.
While in heat, her arc drive setups can be used to build hype.
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While in heat, her arc drive setups can be used to build hype.
Yeeeeah... I love arc drive setups. I'll setup for sandoori and occasionally if I'm in max I'll land and arc drive while they try to guess which way I'm attacking.
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623 series (c and h): loses out to projectiles and reach but beats shield bunker/counter (and guard if C).
No... Just no... You only get a combo off certain distance or counter hit (for the B version), but both versions are - on block. Never use them like that. Your dash is good enough.
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The b version is comboable into 2c at just about any range on hit. When I said it won vs guard I meant the unblockable.
dash in with 5/6c: I haven't really tried this much so I'm unsure of how effective it is.
With C? No... Don't do it, especially not 6C.
I'll agree that it isn't a particularly good idea. However, it isn't the worst of your options (which would be 214b).
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623 series (c and h): loses out to projectiles and reach but beats shield bunker/counter (and guard if C).
No... Just no... You only get a combo off certain distance or counter hit (for the B version), but both versions are - on block. Never use them like that. Your dash is good enough.
The b version is comboable into 2c at just about any range on hit. When I said it won vs guard I meant the unblockable.
Remember that if someone is using a C moon, they can just hold shield against that. Also 2C hits on counter IIRC. I know 5BB works on normal hit to relaunch, but the risk isn't worth it with that move.
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You don't need a counterhit for the b or c versions if you get the timing right.
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You don't need a counterhit for the b or c versions if you get the timing right.
Getting this "timing" right is extremely hard against a live and moving opponent though. The spacing involved with this is pretty strict too.
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After a bit of fiddling around with the other moons, I feel like H-Ryougi seems to be the definitive version. No joke when Rei suggest moving from C to H. I feel like she's more flexible in terms of how she can control the match with her normals and knife catching adds a bit more versatility to her mixup game.
Noting that you guys have more experience than I, are there any specific character matchups you've encountered to be difficult for Ryougi? Bad habits to unlearn?
Thanks again, it's been interesting to note different perspectives in how people play her.
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Lol, I also switched from C to H recently. H is just so much better and way more fun to play as imo. Plus everyone around my area already knows how to avoid the unblockables. :prinny:
I kinda seem to have problems fighting C/H-Sion and H-VSion. I dunno if it's just me though but those characters' rush down games are a fucking bitch to deal with, especially considering Ryougi's poor reversal options. Am I doing something wrong or is this actually a hard matchup?
Hisui is a pretty easy matchup in my experience, same with Nero. Don't have much to say about other chars.
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Fatacon: I'd have to see how you play to really comment on bad habits, honestly. I had a ton of them too at the beginning.
Kohaku, Miyako, and Aoko seem like difficult matches. For VSion you have to keep an eye out for the 6C overhead and punish any summons up close. She's open as soon as she does it, so use 5B to catch her out of it. j.2B gives VSion bad recovery, but it's not wise to attack afterward since she can just j.2B again. Other than that, just try to outspace her in the air with j.B, use 5B over 2A when she starts getting pushed out (since she's faster than you are up close) and be patient.
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I'm probably going to get some criticism for this, but I think moving from C to F is okay too. H > F > C, in my opinion.
List of things that C has over H and F:
- Tricky sandoori/4-way oki after 236c
- Usable 5a whiff cancel
- Pseudo reversal with C-style heat activation
- Usable unblockable normals
- Better vertical air-to-ground
- Retarded guard crush strings (need meter)
List of things that H or F do better:
- Midscreen meterless damage (H)
- Projectile zoning (both, but especially H)
- Air to Air (both, but especially F)
- Ground to Air (F - Seriously look at her 5b. She ducks her head down a little and it even has clash)
- Ground to Ground (both, but especially F)
- Horizontal air-to-ground (H and F j.b)
- Solid +frame pressure (H 3c/22a and F 22a/rekkas)
- Meter-building Combos (H)
- Ground overhead (H and F 4c)
- 22c pseudo reversal (H only - The knife will always come out and trade, often leaving you ahead)
Don't get me wrong. I think C is playable and has some pretty cool tools, but a character with a health bar as bad as Ryougi benefits greatly from better zoning, and that's where H and F shine. I personally think their execution is a bit easier as well.
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After a bit of fiddling around with the other moons, I feel like H-Ryougi seems to be the definitive version. No joke when Rei suggest moving from C to H. I feel like she's more flexible in terms of how she can control the match with her normals and knife catching adds a bit more versatility to her mixup game.
Noting that you guys have more experience than I, are there any specific character matchups you've encountered to be difficult for Ryougi? Bad habits to unlearn?
Thanks again, it's been interesting to note different perspectives in how people play her.
Thank you, people need to listen more often :) . Also JP BBS has said H is the best for Current Code as well.
Difficult matchups are people like H-Vsion and other REALLY good rushdown characters. They get in your face and it's hard to get them off of it.
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fighting miyako is not that difficult as F.. you cleanly outrange her...your air to air is superior and your ground game keeps miyako out of her safe ranges.. making her do shit that makes her unsafe in order to get in...
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Fatacon: I'd have to see how you play to really comment on bad habits, honestly. I had a ton of them too at the beginning.
Planning to be at the Norcal Install event in May. When they have the Livestream up, please feel free to criticize accordingly.
Thank you, people need to listen more often :) . Also JP BBS has said H is the best for Current Code as well.
Difficult matchups are people like H-Vsion and other REALLY good rushdown characters. They get in your face and it's hard to get them off of it.
You can never learn unless you are first willing to listen, right? :D
Agreed that VSion gets in your face like nobody's business. Once she's inside your defenses, her speed outmatches Ryougi's. If an opponent doesn't respect my pressure, I've found my defensive capability to be quite lacking (coupled with Ryougi's health rating :'( ). Spacing and zoning with 5B helps me a lot until I can find a good opening to start pressure again.
As far as Nero is concerned, I suppose I just need a bit more matchup experience on this one. His summons leave him relatively open and his far reaching normals (as stated) extend his own hitbox and leave him open if you let him whiff. Getting the hang of it somewhat. The Mantis Arm used to catch me on dash-ins way too much.
A WLen match feels like it's all over the place, and it's kinda hard for me to pin her down. Maybe, like Nero I just need more match time with her.
Lastly, I hate getting stuck in a corner against C-Kohaku. Plants. All. Day. My attempts to jump out are often met with a j.B to lock me back in. At the very least, it's worse for me than Hisui.
With EVO around the corner and events on the West and East coasts in preparation, I'm looking forward to see how things are evolving with new strategies and given matchups. I'm glad that people are putting thought into their responses here. I was seriously thinking that, after I started this topic, it would be full of tumbleweeds.
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Fatacon: I'd have to see how you play to really comment on bad habits, honestly. I had a ton of them too at the beginning.
Planning to be at the Norcal Install event in May. When they have the Livestream up, please feel free to criticize accordingly.
Thank you, people need to listen more often :) . Also JP BBS has said H is the best for Current Code as well.
Difficult matchups are people like H-Vsion and other REALLY good rushdown characters. They get in your face and it's hard to get them off of it.
You can never learn unless you are first willing to listen, right? :D
Agreed that VSion gets in your face like nobody's business. Once she's inside your defenses, her speed outmatches Ryougi's. If an opponent doesn't respect my pressure, I've found my defensive capability to be quite lacking (coupled with Ryougi's health rating :'( ). Spacing and zoning with 5B helps me a lot until I can find a good opening to start pressure again.
As far as Nero is concerned, I suppose I just need a bit more matchup experience on this one. His summons leave him relatively open and his far reaching normals (as stated) extend his own hitbox and leave him open if you let him whiff. Getting the hang of it somewhat. The Mantis Arm used to catch me on dash-ins way too much.
A WLen match feels like it's all over the place, and it's kinda hard for me to pin her down. Maybe, like Nero I just need more match time with her.
Lastly, I hate getting stuck in a corner against C-Kohaku. Plants. All. Day. My attempts to jump out are often met with a j.B to lock me back in. At the very least, it's worse for me than Hisui.
With EVO around the corner and events on the West and East coasts in preparation, I'm looking forward to see how things are evolving with new strategies and given matchups. I'm glad that people are putting thought into their responses here. I was seriously thinking that, after I started this topic, it would be full of tumbleweeds.
Also remember that people won't respect you until you earn it. I've seen that people like to mash dp pretty fast to not let you do things. Ryougi is pretty safe against DPs due to great mid-range zoning. Like, make them respect you before you try anything tricky (such as tick-throws, run up arc drive, etc)
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Also remember that people won't respect you until you earn it. I've seen that people like to mash dp pretty fast to not let you do things. Ryougi is pretty safe against DPs due to great mid-range zoning. Like, make them respect you before you try anything tricky (such as tick-throws, run up arc drive, etc)
This is very true. People will wakeup DP or HEAT all day if you rush in and you can learn to bait it with patience. Others will mash 2A on your blockstrings (especially after 22C) but luckily a 5B will catch it most, if not all the time.
Instead of a run-up arc drive, I've had better luck starting with the first 3 or so hits of a blocksting into whiffing an A (preferably 4A to buffer the motion) into Arc Drive. It catches most people, since the whiff comes out pretty fast and usually, if you've been pressuring with blockstrings enough, they'll be expecting a blockstring anyway. I've never had anyone jump out of this setup, and in my experience, it's never failed unless I dropped the execution or accidentally hit with the "whiff". Keep in mind, it's a gimmicky trick that i sparsely use, but in a tense match when the opponent is clinging onto their last bit of life and starts turtling up, it nets you a few good laughs when you Arc Drive Finish.
AFAIK, on oki, Ryougi doesn't have any good meaty options, right?
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Also remember that people won't respect you until you earn it. I've seen that people like to mash dp pretty fast to not let you do things. Ryougi is pretty safe against DPs due to great mid-range zoning. Like, make them respect you before you try anything tricky (such as tick-throws, run up arc drive, etc)
This is very true. People will wakeup DP or HEAT all day if you rush in and you can learn to bait it with patience. Others will mash 2A on your blockstrings (especially after 22C) but luckily a 5B will catch it most, if not all the time.
Instead of a run-up arc drive, I've had better luck starting with the first 3 or so hits of a blocksting into whiffing an A (preferably 4A to buffer the motion) into Arc Drive. It catches most people, since the whiff comes out pretty fast and usually, if you've been pressuring with blockstrings enough, they'll be expecting a blockstring anyway. I've never had anyone jump out of this setup, and in my experience, it's never failed unless I dropped the execution or accidentally hit with the "whiff". Keep in mind, it's a gimmicky trick that i sparsely use, but in a tense match when the opponent is clinging onto their last bit of life and starts turtling up, it nets you a few good laughs when you Arc Drive Finish.
AFAIK, on oki, Ryougi doesn't have any good meaty options, right?
Run up arc drive is funny, I normally run 5C delay arc drive so it's exactly like a mid-range tick throw. Making people scared and often trying to jump out of block.
For C and H Ryougi, 5B is a great meaty. Beats out 2A mashing, can be spaced to beat/clash with dp. Ryougi is fairly safe using it as a meaty.
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For C and H Ryougi, 5B is a great meaty. Beats out 2A mashing, can be spaced to beat/clash with dp. Ryougi is fairly safe using it as a meaty.
I completely disagree. 5b is a quick move that doesn't last very long, and is very laggy. It'll lose to stuff like wakeup sidestep (where it's laggy enough for you to easily get counterattacked afterward) and backdash (which you'll get counterattacked after if they backdashed in the corner).
While 5b has great range, Ryougi's hitbox extends really far forward before the hitbox of the move even comes out, which is very important to keep in mind when you're trying to throw it out at the same time as another shorter-ranged move or out-range a dp.
Saying that it beats 2a mashing isn't really relevant, because a properly timed 2a on oki will beat 2a mashing as well. Clashing dps is pretty baller though, if you can do it.
I think C/H Ryougi's best meaty option is a well-timed 2a, 2b because it'll catch backdashes.
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5B is really a risk on whiff, the move itself has substantial recovery time. Personally, I still prefer C over to H due to her better air normals. I just can't bring myself to like the jC of her H version. Ryougi wise is still weak against people who can rush down really fast or those that have fast and long range moves, Kohaku, Mech Hisui.
Ryougi doesn't have much advantage over Hisui too. I say it is the other way round instead with Hisui having more misc stuff to keep Ryougi down in check with faster air normals.
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no this matchup i feel is in ryougi's favor.. the only thing hisui has on you picnic trap setups and maybe some range tools.. her block strings aren't that hard to read just look for overhead and break throws her combos do little even to ryougi.. and her guard breaking isn't that strong (unlike ryougi's) and once you get momentum.. it's hard for hisui to do anything about it unless she does bunkers/Saturday night fever/heat ... you outrange her as far as normal..( i think i can say this for each moon, but i do know i out range her in F).. even with her projectiles, in F you can just dash 2C (possibly), or 3C underneath.. F 3C has a mad low hitbox...
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I've been meaning to post this for a while: I came up with a much more effective way to pressure with H-Ryougi.
I noticed that my pressure was really focused on getting as many ground hits as I possibly could while confirming into a combo, and this kept me at a range where it was very difficult to threaten grab or overhead or dash back in to continue pressure without using knife. So my pressure basically lost to patient ex-guarding.
The fix: short pressure strings that end with 3c
The cost: more effort for hit-confirms and slightly less damage
Basic string:
2a, 2b, 3c
After this, if you started it at point-blank, you're close enough to:
1) 5b (safe)
2) dash in and repeat
3) dash in and grab
4) overhead
My new standard pressure string (if I suspect disrespect) is:
2a, 2b, 3c ->
5b (delay)b*, 2c, 3c ->
5b, 5c, 2c, 22a ->
whatever
And at any point I could dash in to grab or reset pressure.
*The delay after 5b is for hit-confirming attempted jump-outs. You can actually delay that second hit of 5b for a pretty long time and still combo.
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I've been meaning to post this for a while: I came up with a much more effective way to pressure with H-Ryougi.
I noticed that my pressure was really focused on getting as many ground hits as I possibly could while confirming into a combo, and this kept me at a range where it was very difficult to threaten grab or overhead or dash back in to continue pressure without using knife. So my pressure basically lost to patient ex-guarding.
The fix: short pressure strings that end with 3c
The cost: more effort for hit-confirms and slightly less damage
Basic string:
2a, 2b, 3c
After this, if you started it at point-blank, you're close enough to:
1) 5b (safe)
2) dash in and repeat
3) dash in and grab
4) overhead
My new standard pressure string (if I suspect disrespect) is:
2a, 2b, 3c ->
5b (delay)b*, 2c, 3c ->
5b, 5c, 2c, 22a ->
whatever
And at any point I could dash in to grab or reset pressure.
*The delay after 5b is for hit-confirming attempted jump-outs. You can actually delay that second hit of 5b for a pretty long time and still combo.
Don't forget 4C overhead. you can do stuff like at point blank. 2A 5B 2B 4C 22A which is pretty easy to hit confirm.
also options 2 and 3 get beaten by stuff like Kohaku mash out 5C and other fast mid-ranged attacks. You should try to stick with long strings IMO, 22A is pretty gdlk with how much + you get with it and then you can throw in the short strings when your opponent is used to the long ones. Like, you can start with stuff like 2A 2B 3C and yeah, you can pretty much select what you want to do via flow chart method. I personally like to do strings which won't reverse beat just so I can keep my damage up.
tl;dr version, use short AND long strings. especially since Ryougi's attacks auto stagger.
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Don't get me wrong. I think C is playable and has some pretty cool tools, but a character with a health bar as bad as Ryougi benefits greatly from better zoning, and that's where H and F shine. I personally think their execution is a bit easier as well.
You sir, are on crack. H-Ryougi has easier than C? On what planet? Maybe if I you consider having to learn different timing and different loops on every single character in the game easier, or you're OK with getting 2500 damage.
Regarding H-Ryougi 3C (why they gave her a normal that's +initiative on block is beyond me, orz), let's break this out into an action matrix. Let's say your opponent's options after blocking the 3C are to mash, dodge, backdash, jump, or DP (basically, they're doing anything BUT block). Positive numbers represent damage Ryougi does, negative numbers represent damage Ryougi takes. These numbers assumes she has her knife to throw.
| ..... | Mash | Dodge | Backdash | Jump | DP |
| 5B | +4500 | +1500 | 0 | +2500 | +4500 |
| dash 2AAAA | -4000 | +4500 | +4500 | -2000 | -2000 |
| dash throw | -4000 | +1200 | +1200 | -4500 | -2000 |
| overhead | +2000 | +1000 | -4000 | +1500 | +2000 |
Yeah, I didn't include shields, I'm lazy. And I'm too lazy to actually SOLVE for this table right now. :p
Now, the numbers for 2A look a lot better if you're close enough that you DON'T have to dash in (so why not do 2C3C?), because now it at least beats mashing. However, if you are using the 3C frametrap to go into 2A/5B/overhead, it then loses to DPs and dodges a LOT more.
If the character is airborne during their backdash, 2A and throwing look a fair bit worse in those spots.
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Actually, you can usually get like 2.5k+ I thought off of overhead normally. Stuff like 4C 22A 5B into air combo. I don't think overhead beats DP seeing is it's range isn't nearly as good as 5B's nor does it have the clash frames that 5B has to offer to beat some DPs.
And yeah, C-Ryougi is definitely easier with the combos. Custom combo loops aren't really that hard nor are things like the really good oki setup ending in 236C. Her BnB is pretty easy as well.
She just doesn't have the +frame tools that H Ryougi has, as well as several loops. But C-Ryougi has some REALLY scary staggers.
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You sir, are on crack. H-Ryougi has easier than C? On what planet? Maybe if I you consider having to learn different timing and different loops on every single character in the game easier, or you're OK with getting 2500 damage.
The sweep loop is pretty much the hardest thing H-Ryougi can do, and the 63214c 4c whiff ender into air combo is pretty much the hardest thing C-Ryougi can do, imo. Even considering the timing varies on many characters, I find the sweep loop easier, personally. That's pretty much all I meant. Also it seems like H-Ryougi has a little bit more time to link her normals together than C. Not a big deal, though.
(some crazy math shit)
Now, the numbers for 2A look a lot better if you're close enough that you DON'T have to dash in (so why not do 2C3C?), because now it at least beats mashing. However, if you are using the 3C frametrap to go into 2A/5B/overhead, it then loses to DPs and dodges a LOT more.
So, you're pretty much just saying that dash-in 2a after 3c isn't safe, and that 5b loses to sidestep and DPs? Isn't it obvious that dash-in anything can get mashed out, 5b loses to sidestep, and that DPs beat anything except blocking and the occasional 5b clash?
Am I missing something? Maybe I haven't taken enough math classes.
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Actually, you can usually get like 2.5k+ I thought off of overhead normally. Stuff like 4C 22A 5B into air combo.
I actually got curious about what's the max H-Ryougi can do off an overhead, and decided to test it.
Seems like the max I can do is 3399 (2.4k fully reduced) while landing on the knife without using meter. Can she do more than this? Obviously this was done in the corner...
4c 22a 5bb 214a 5bb jbc jbc j236b
Sometimes, if you use 5c instead of the second 5bb and wait a bit after landing the first 5bb you'll be behind the opponent. Apologizes if this has already been discussed somewhere or if this was common knowledge.
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It is character dependent. You can go into a sweep loop or partial sweep loop on some characters. Otherwise, the follow up I generally use is 4c 22a [2c 3c 623b]x3 236a 236a 236a 22a (pick up). You can also go for an air combo if preferred, just omit the last 623b, and instead go into 5c 5bb j.bc dj.b6bc j.236b.
Actually, you can usually get like 2.5k+ I thought off of overhead normally. Stuff like 4C 22A 5B into air combo.
I actually got curious about what's the max H-Ryougi can do off an overhead, and decided to test it.
Seems like the max I can do is 3399 (2.4k fully reduced) while landing on the knife without using meter. Can she do more than this? Obviously this was done in the corner...
4c 22a 5bb 214a 5bb jbc jbc j236b
Sometimes, if you use 5c instead of the second 5bb and wait a bit after landing the first 5bb you'll be behind the opponent. Apologizes if this has already been discussed somewhere or if this was common knowledge.
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Lol, I also switched from C to H recently. H is just so much better and way more fun to play as imo. Plus everyone around my area already knows how to avoid the unblockables. :prinny:
I kinda seem to have problems fighting C/H-Sion and H-VSion. I dunno if it's just me though but those characters' rush down games are a fucking bitch to deal with, especially considering Ryougi's poor reversal options. Am I doing something wrong or is this actually a hard matchup?
Hisui is a pretty easy matchup in my experience, same with Nero. Don't have much to say about other chars.
I've recently had more matches with sp00ky's H-VSion and several other characters who are good at rushdown. All I can say is that you have to put them on the defensive. That's your only option, because giving them the momentum will make you gasping for air and space. Way too many frame traps and Ryougi's mid-range/long-range normals have too much startup. You almost have to try to get shields and crap like that in. But yeah, just remember about their meter (bunkers, EX reversals, etc) and you will do alright. I got destroyed by sp00ky because he usually has enough to bunker and I suck at baiting it :/. That and his offense + pressure is goddamn scary.
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Thought it would be best to ask here.
How do you... not... throw the knife with her 214A? It annoys me when I throw it during combos.
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Ryougi never throws her knife in her 214 moves. Are you sure you're not accidentally inputting 63214 instead? Her 63214 moves gets her to jump, turn upside-down, then throw her knife, a somewhat similar animation with her 214 moves.
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Ryougi never throws her knife in her 214 moves. Are you sure you're not accidentally inputting 63214 instead? Her 63214 moves gets her to jump, turn upside-down, then throw her knife, a somewhat similar animation with her 214 moves.
Ahh. Didn't know 63214 is a part of her move list. Sucks cuz it overlaps her 214. That prolly explains why I keep throwing the knife accidently.
Thanks alot .
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Ryougi never throws her knife in her 214 moves. Are you sure you're not accidentally inputting 63214 instead? Her 63214 moves gets her to jump, turn upside-down, then throw her knife, a somewhat similar animation with her 214 moves.
Ahh. Didn't know 63214 is a part of her move list. Sucks cuz it overlaps her 214. That prolly explains why I keep throwing the knife accidently.
Thanks alot .
Yeah I was having issues doing that last night as well, which is stupid to me why they would give her a knife throwing move with almost the same command.