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Author Topic: MBAACC Sion  (Read 22488 times)

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Offline Benny1

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2011, 06:16:22 PM »
I will talk even though those watching Greats' stream know I"m terrible at this game right now...

j.B is amazing.  Like, I don't think you understand how amazing j.B is right now.  j.B shuts down ANYTHING below Sion.  It takes bullshit good moves (F-Kohaku 2B) to shut down Sion j.B. I know when I played recently I couldn't even hit 214B j.[C] and I was still doing well.  j.B is an amazing air normal, assuming you can sort of anticipate air footsies (ie, is she lower than you or not? If she's above, hit j.C, if not, j.B, if she's on same level, consider j.A), so I feel more or less this is a misunderstanding of the character.

Tonberry, you should be aware she did lose her lower body invulnerability on 6B, but that's about it.  F-Sion, at least, is a well done character, and it's hard to assume she's bad these days.
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Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2011, 08:50:14 PM »
I gave up on C-Sion already. I'm just pissed because Sion was my "main alt?" in MBAC and her gameplay was really cool and I really liked it.. Well.. I'm playing F-Sion now as alt in CC, but I mained C-Kohaku already, which was my 2ยบ alt in MBAC..

I know about how to use her airset, but it's just useless since you need to be in the right spots and your opponent wont let you get to those spots. She needs too much spacing to press a button safely in air now. This gives too much space for the opponent to win neutral spacing... They'd just go in easely =/ Maybe it's not bad, but it's not Sion I know..

They could do that but I'm guessing they probably didn't because it'd look awkward to see the move visually end but have you in a state where you can't do anything.
You're right about that. I havent thought about this. But to me it's still awkward the way it is now =/
I remember reading somewhere Sion's and V.Sion's dashes were nerfed, but now I can't find it...

Is that the orange F-Sion?
Yes, and good news, he's still playing. Kirisugu just uploaded matches of him. He's using very well her range in the ground =o...

Also on ground sion makes zoners rage. cMech or fAkiha trying to throw shit at you? 214a. Holy shit in like 9 frames you just gave yourself massive initiative. Against bulldog types you'll have some trouble sure. But she makes up for that with arguably the best dp in the game and her 421 series phasing you through shit
Zoners never gave me much problems. The problems are against the skillful guys who will space normally with their air footsies, and I'm a bulldog (used to hunt them down with j.A =/), but their moves are going to counter mine allday now or they'll just go in taking the space I give away trying to position myself, so they win neutral game and begin the pressure. About DP.. I really don't like DP in MB (or in other games) there are so many DP proof measures to add in the okizemes/mixups that make them just bad, only useful as surprise factor imo... Also, is C-Sion 623A still a DP? F-Sion isn't =/. Because of that Chest uses 623B when he wants to actually DP. I'd preffer to block instead since blocking is OP, or try a forward jump. Her 421 in neutral are way too risky imo x.x.

I am also very sad at her air throw nerf, but her post air throw game is still good in the corner. They cant tech nuetral or back or you can react with j214c. and forward techs you can 2a. neutral? 214a or dp ender for combos.
Yeah, that's what I was doing in the time I played her, but wasnt feeling very good =/..

Dont take this as an angry rant. im a very sarcastic person.
Don't worry xD

Also complaining about having nero-like combos,when all she does in mbac is ground normals into launcher into standard jBCjBCadj.C combos,those are are much more exciting amirite).
She had so much freedom to custom combo before: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4902483
I used to do her bounce combo allday with 5(c) 6(b) 421/623b (you had to adapt according to the height as it would change the side). There was also her loop too for massive damage: 5(c) 6(b) 421/623b 421c 214b (actually I think I was the only one who used to use this): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFBD6jG9Uw4 If at least there was the bounce/reload combo.. I wouldnt mind any damage nerf, really..

j.B is amazing.  Like, I don't think you understand how amazing j.B is right now.  j.B shuts down ANYTHING below Sion.  It takes bullshit good moves (F-Kohaku 2B) to shut down Sion j.B. I know when I played recently I couldn't even hit 214B j.[C] and I was still doing well.  j.B is an amazing air normal, assuming you can sort of anticipate air footsies (ie, is she lower than you or not? If she's above, hit j.C, if not, j.B, if she's on same level, consider j.A), so I feel more or less this is a misunderstanding of the character.
I had the impression F-Sion has a way better j.B then C-Sion even though the animation is the same, am I wrong? Maybe I just really had pretty bad luck with using C-Sion's j.B, because F-Sion j.B is godlike, I agree with that.

Imo, it'll be easier for him to improve if he listens to more experienced players rather then thinking "oh these moves are garbage, better not ever use them."  If you never use Sion jB/jC it'll take a hell of a lot longer to learn her than it should.
It's cool man. It's not like I'm bad or I can't improve. It's just that they totally messed up my second character and I wont play her the way she is now because of it. The things I identified as the useful ones in MBAC and added to my gameplay are gone and I'm so pissed about it when they say j.A (the base of my gameplay) duration increased and that j.A epic whiff happens =/. Anyway I really appreciate that you intended to help me. o/
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 09:36:53 PM by Cristu »
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Offline Madscientist

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2011, 06:30:34 AM »
It takes bullshit good moves (F-Kohaku 2B) to shut down Sion j.B.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijhXVRRnSGo#t=843s
Clearly he 2B'ed too early, but I just thought this was funny.

Offline FireBearHero

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2011, 12:02:58 PM »
Well if you can't make C-Sion's air normals work for you, then you're probably screwed because there aren't any better ones.

There's always blocking and being pushed down into the most hardcore bullshit DP, too.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 12:04:35 PM by Thana »

Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 02:02:02 AM »
So, it's probably not new, but still.

C-Sion Yuu's cool OTG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf59MBYnGRA#t=7m45s
It's only for style sadly :{

C-Sion j[C] combo into good okizeme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuZCr4CuPjQ#t=11m20s

Let's go Justin!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuZCr4CuPjQ#t=7m11s
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 02:43:31 AM by Cristu »
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Offline Benny1

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2011, 09:17:57 PM »
Never underestimate how good building meter can be for C-Sion, 214C is such an incredible move...
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Offline Bolverk-GTM

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2011, 08:31:58 AM »
I switched to F-Sion from C-Sion a couple of months ago when I got back into MBAA and I love it so much.  Although I'm faced with a big problem here.

I'm lacking a lot of match experience.  I'm too passive on defense.  If I lose offensive momentum and get rushed down, I'm stuck on "What do I do?  I know I need to shut this down and get my momentum back ASAP, but how?  I feel like if I try anything, I'll get hit.  What the heck do I do?"  This always ends up in me blocking everything forever and eventually backing myself into a corner when I get overwhelmed by a lot of aggression.

I was told by a friend that Sp00ky had the same problem when he started out in MB.  Unlike Sp00ky, I can't solve my problem by having Zar beat the shit out of me for thousands of matches until I become more aggressive (because I have no clue where Zar lives).  Instead, I decided to ask the board.  What are F-Sion's most viable defensive options (besides blocking) and how can she follow them up?

Last I checked, her shield bunker isn't that great and I doubt that has changed (Hey, prove me wrong though).  Full moon obviously can't EX-Shield, but you can shield counter.  What are some combos you can do off of F-Sion's shield counter?

To sum this big post up:  I block too damn much.  How do I be more disrespectful with F-Sion when I get rushed down?

I bolded my biggest questions for people who don't feel like reading the whole post.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 08:38:02 AM by Bolverk-GTM »
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2011, 08:45:06 AM »
623A j214C is stupidly hard to deal with on wakeup unless the character you're facing has really good meaty and can stick out a very active normal. Otherwise feel free to spam this since it's recovery on whiff is godlike, it's + on block, yatta yatta. Even if they have meaty that can just beat 623A, you can just use a real dp. :/

2A is a very good normal to mash when you think they're going to dash back in during a closer blockstring. If they're too far, contemplate either just jumping out after respecting to a space where they push themselves out and using your good airmovement or mash out with 5B/2B? Not too sure how viable 5B/2B are; you can ask Tonberry later about that.

Basically just wait til they push themselves out and then work with the space you've been granted by jumping or defending you declaring your space. If they start to get far too aggressive and do unsafe resets too often, just mash 2A. DPing inbetween stings is kinda risky but since your pokes aren't the best feel free to exploit more obvious strings with it

Hope this helped out a bit.
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Offline Bolverk-GTM

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2011, 08:59:12 AM »
I often forget that 623A can be canceled into an EX.  That will help quite a bit actually.  Now I just wait for responses from others.
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Offline LordPangTong

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2011, 11:12:26 AM »
As far as combos off of shield counter go, F-Sion is sort of limited. After messing around in training mode there were three combos I came up with:

236D 5B j.ABC j.ABC Air Throw: 2.2k on Arc. Works anywhere and easy as shit
236D 22A (whiff) 2A 5B j.BC Air Throw: 1.7k on Arc. Use when back is to corner. Low air throw gives you forward tech punish with falling j.C
236D 2C 214A- 1k on Arc. Sacrifices damage to get left/right mixup if you do j.8 or j.7 air dash afterwards.

Seeing as she can't combo into 214B off shield counter, she can't go into her BEj.C combos, and doing them off 3B isn't worth it.

Edit: this discussion should probably be moved to PS2 MBAA forum
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Offline Bolverk-GTM

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2011, 12:40:26 PM »
Probably, but a lot of it still applies to Current Code.  Besides, there really isn't any activity on the MBAA board now, so I figured it would be easier to post this here where more people could bump into it.

Actually, that's just a half-assed OS I was going to use to try and make myself look/feel less stupid.  I honestly didn't realize that the MBAA and MBAC archives got their own boards.  I thought they just...disappeared with the Melty Bread makeover since the Current Code boards stick out like a sore thumb and the old stuff used to be put in archive sub-forums for each character.

 :nyoro:
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2011, 02:03:26 PM »
A couple universal defense tips
- You need to be able to block most characters overheads on reaction at least most of the time.  With most overheads that is completely viable. 
- If they're an H-Moon or C-Moon character you can generally wait until your opponent pushes themselves out a good amount before trying to jump out/mash 5b.  5b catches both IAD and dash back in.
- If they are playing a character where they can stay in for a long time relatively safely you need to be able to EX guard fairly well.
- Learn how your opponent likes to pressure.  If they keep going for pressure resets in a certain way, mash those points.

F-Sion specifically
- If they OS shield counters, do 5[d]/2[d] 623a/623b. 
- Mash 623b in blockstrings if you're confident they are going to keep pressuring. 
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Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2011, 03:08:00 PM »
Don't listen to them! Mashing 2a is scrubby and ugly, and even if it work sometimes you wont have any merit. People will begin to meaty/stagger you allday. Same will happen if you use 623A 214C or 623A j.214C. Both are just punishable gimmicks and you have to avoid them as a serious player. Also 623A doesnt have invincibility. Mashing 623B is also scrubby. You gotta know all of your opponent options, so you can choose the less bad choices. Choose the ones that will lead to less damage if punished / more change of going back to neutral (jump forward is universally godlike for Sions, but go deeper and learn your opponents options).
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »
Why is it scrubby to mash dp when you KNOW they are going to stagger?  Why is it scrubby to mash on 2a when you KNOW your opponent is going to do something unsafe?  Oh wait, it isn't.  It's not like that's all I said to do on defense. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 04:10:11 PM by Tonberry »
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Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2011, 06:25:49 PM »
Why is it scrubby to mash dp when you KNOW they are going to stagger?  Why is it scrubby to mash on 2a when you KNOW your opponent is going to do something unsafe?  Oh wait, it isn't.  It's not like that's all I said to do on defense.

You're right about it, but you should never know that. You can trust your yomi, but that's all. In high level matches you'll want to play safe, because the opponent will know what you want to do, and his yomi is as good as your, but he has the momentum advantage, what makes the things much more risky to you. The truth is there is never a right moment to try something to get out of the pressure. Every gap you see can (should) pretty much be a trap. If it's not, blame the player. It's so risky to use DP when your opponent created his gameplay/style also based in being safe against DP and MB gives so many options to that. It may work a lot, but that's playing against the stereotype of an opponent that doesnt have a safe gameplay. Playing against that stereotype will bring you bad habits. In theory you have to play against the game and only make exceptions when you see the things you can punish if you play against the opponent. That's what I think..
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2011, 07:30:23 PM »
In high level matches you'll want to play safe, because the opponent will know what you want to do, and his yomi is as good as your, but he has the momentum advantage, what makes the things much more risky to you. The truth is there is never a right moment to try something to get out of the pressure.

I agree that most of the time you should just block.  The thing is though, some characters either have such overwhelming mixup that if you just try and sit there and block for a long time you are guaranteed to lose.  F-Ries and F-Akiha are good examples of characters that have essentially infinitely unmashable blockstrings that keep them close to you without lowering damage from rebeats.  Sometimes you CAN'T just sit there and block. 

Every gap you see can (should) pretty much be a trap. If it's not, blame the player. It's so risky to use DP when your opponent created his gameplay/style also based in being safe against DP and MB gives so many options to that. It may work a lot, but that's playing against the stereotype of an opponent that doesnt have a safe gameplay. Playing against that stereotype will bring you bad habits. In theory you have to play against the game and only make exceptions when you see the things you can punish if you play against the opponent. That's what I think..

While most of the time, gaps ARE traps, they're usually frametraps.  Your opponent is staggering so that you can't jump/mash.  This means that you CAN DP.  Should you treat that as a get out of jail free option?  No.  However, there IS an opportunity to get out in your opponents blockstrings.  Again, you should generally just take the safe route and block but sometimes that isn't possible. 
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Offline Bolverk-GTM

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2011, 08:40:01 PM »
You're right about it, but you should never know that. You can trust your yomi, but that's all.

Aren't you just rephrasing the same....okay whatever.  I took all of the inputs into consideration and I'll mess with it later on when I get some matches in again.  Time to start being disrespectful because I'm happy when my opponent can't do jack squat.  :toot:
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Offline Axis

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2011, 08:44:15 PM »
Why is it scrubby to mash dp when you KNOW they are going to stagger?  Why is it scrubby to mash on 2a when you KNOW your opponent is going to do something unsafe?  Oh wait, it isn't.  It's not like that's all I said to do on defense.

You're right about it, but you should never know that. You can trust your yomi, but that's all. In high level matches you'll want to play safe, because the opponent will know what you want to do, and his yomi is as good as your, but he has the momentum advantage, what makes the things much more risky to you. The truth is there is never a right moment to try something to get out of the pressure. Every gap you see can (should) pretty much be a trap. If it's not, blame the player. It's so risky to use DP when your opponent created his gameplay/style also based in being safe against DP and MB gives so many options to that. It may work a lot, but that's playing against the stereotype of an opponent that doesnt have a safe gameplay. Playing against that stereotype will bring you bad habits. In theory you have to play against the game and only make exceptions when you see the things you can punish if you play against the opponent. That's what I think..

You are not thinking correctly, I want you to stop and reread what you said, and then edit your post and make sense.
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Offline Team_Purple

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2011, 11:14:45 PM »
The truth is there is never a right moment to try something to get out of the pressure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2011, 11:26:45 PM »
You are not thinking correctly, I want you to stop and reread what you said, and then edit your post and make sense.
What exactly is not making sense? I'll fix it.

While most of the time, gaps ARE traps, they're usually frametraps.  Your opponent is staggering so that you can't jump/mash.  This means that you CAN DP.  Should you treat that as a get out of jail free option?  No.  However, there IS an opportunity to get out in your opponents blockstrings.  Again, you should generally just take the safe route and block but sometimes that isn't possible.
I agree with that. The way things were being putted before was like "mash 2A and DP and be happy". Mashings takes to nowhere. I don't like when people makes such a complex game look so simple. People got to observe, got to think, got to know the frame stuff, got to calculate risks to get out of the pressure. My problem is with the word "mash".

I agree that DP can be a viable when the player can use it wisely, but sadly it might be like 3% of the cases... To the rest using DP in their gameplay might do more harm then good. Other bad thing about DP is that if you miss it you'll receive full punish combo. And if you suceed doing it you'll do some damage and usually get back to neutral. While if you try to jump (having the yomi to choose when to jump), there is a not bad chance of escaping and getting back to neutral, and even if you get punished you'll get like 2.8k average, and also there is the chance of your opponent not confirmating it into a combo. You can choose a move to get hit that will be hard for the opponent to confirm it into a combo or sucessfuly jump out. The reward is the same, but the risk to me seems much lower when you jump out.

The truth is there is never a right moment to try something to get out of the pressure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value
If you don't understand your opponent options he will manipulate your sense of expectation. After you know his options, yes, you can DP sometimes, but it's still a very high risk / low reward bet imo.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 12:00:20 AM by Cristu »
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Offline Inso

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2011, 12:18:55 AM »
I agree that most of the time you should just block.  The thing is though, some characters either have such overwhelming mixup that if you just try and sit there and block for a long time you are guaranteed to lose.  F-Ries and F-Akiha are good examples of characters that have essentially infinitely unmashable blockstrings that keep them close to you without lowering damage from rebeats.  Sometimes you CAN'T just sit there and block. 

While most of the time, gaps ARE traps, they're usually frametraps.  Your opponent is staggering so that you can't jump/mash.  This means that you CAN DP.  Should you treat that as a get out of jail free option?  No.  However, there IS an opportunity to get out in your opponents blockstrings.  Again, you should generally just take the safe route and block but sometimes that isn't possible.

Why is it scrubby to mash dp when you KNOW they are going to stagger?  Why is it scrubby to mash on 2a when you KNOW your opponent is going to do something unsafe?  Oh wait, it isn't.  It's not like that's all I said to do on defense.

^ Quoted for much truth.

Also, is her bunker so bad it's not even an option?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 12:24:17 AM by Inso »
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2011, 07:27:01 AM »
Also, is her bunker so bad it's not even an option?

Bunkers outside of H moon must be done during hitstop of moves as opposed to H, where they only need to be in blockstun.

This it's infinitely harder to time and far easier to punish. It costs 50 less meter though and can be done on some setups [Read: Ryougi 22C]
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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2011, 10:01:27 AM »
You are not thinking correctly, I want you to stop and reread what you said, and then edit your post and make sense.
What exactly is not making sense? I'll fix it.

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Isn't it sad...Sacchin.

Offline Bolverk-GTM

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2011, 10:15:02 AM »
I don't like when people makes such a complex game look so simple.
1.) :V

Quote
People got to observe, got to think, got to know the frame stuff, got to calculate risks to get out of the pressure.
2.) You almost make the second statement sound like observing, thinking, knowing frame data, and properly taking risks are exclusive to this game and have no business anywhere else.  I recall it being extremely helpful to know all of that stuff in pretty much every fighting game.

Quote
My problem is with the word "mash".
3.) Your problem with the word "mash" is that you're taking it too literally.  You're taking a lot of things that were posted here too literally and responding like everyone else is a bunch of idiots.  I don't know about you, but when I tell someone they have to mash a poke to shut something down, I don't expect them to go out and mash that poke on defense at every given opportunity like they have the button set on turbo.  That's just stupid. 

When someone says "mash," typically they mean throw out a fast light poke 1-3 times because that's an amount that is sensible, usually safe, and will guarantee that you catch them if you guessed right.  You're obviously not paying enough attention to the JP match videos if you're making such a big deal about this term.  They do it, too!  In fact, Chest often throws out a 2A to shut down pressure begging to be punished because it works and if he guesses wrong, he's usually safe.  Perfect example right here when he's fighting an Akiha.  He throws out the 2A because he expects an unsafe run-in, but they super jumped instead, so he's safe for guessing wrong anyways.  Later on in the same match, he does it again and it works.

The only problem here is that you're taking the term "mash" too literally.  Personally, I love mashed potatoes, especially when they have a lot of salt in them.  I hate M.A.S.H. though, screw that show.


I'd continue this to talk about DP'ing, but it's much of the same discussion and I'm not up to putting too much effort on this.  More likely than not, you'll take me for an idiot and completely ignore my points here.  ANYWAYS thanks again everyone for your inputs.  They helped me get an idea of what to do on defense a little more and I'll be sure to experiment during casual matches to improve my ability to apply these options.

One last thing though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

This is a great article and I suggest you read it again because you obviously don't understand.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 10:25:12 AM by Bolverk-GTM »
[21:05] <MashThat5A> Do I have to pay for this game?
[21:05] <Chaoschao> Pay for poverty games? : psyduck :

Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2011, 10:39:02 AM »
You're taking a lot of things that were posted here too literally and responding like everyone else is a bunch of idiots.  I don't know about you, but when I tell someone they have to mash a poke to shut something down, I don't expect them to go out and mash that poke on defense at every given opportunity like they have the button set on turbo.  That's just stupid. 

More likely than not, you'll take me for an idiot and completely ignore my points here.

Not really. Sorry if I sounded arrogant, that wasnt my intention. I'm too literal because I only know theory english, since I never had real practice. I didnt mean to sound like a dick, if I did. Some people I know will literally mash 2a and say people on MeltyBread says it's legit (there were already two people who came with this). I don't think any of you guys are idiots or stupid, and I didn't want to sound like it. I'm just trying to help with the best intentions.

And I understand that article.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 11:29:52 AM by Cristu »
A little bit of console ain't too bad.