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Author Topic: MBAACC Sion  (Read 27125 times)

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Offline BurstOfAnger

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MBAACC Sion
« on: November 14, 2010, 10:03:41 PM »
Any changes in CC known yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxPaSiWLUA#&t=9m50s

Did she get a damage buff? Probably a change in the proration for j[c]. 7k on VSion not starting from an aerial.
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Offline ehrik

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 11:12:01 PM »
Quote
C-Sion:
214A - Faster start up
JA - Duration increased
421AB - Faster start up
Dash - Faster + profile lowered

236 - Auto reload has more recovery

F-Sion:
3B - Air unblockable
22B - Throw hitbox improved
Dash - Faster + profile lowered

H-Sion:
5C - Buffs to hitbox, recovery and start up
JA - Duration increased
6C - Improved
BE6C - Improved
BE6B - Faster start up
JB - Weaker hitbox
421A - Faster Start up
5A6A - Prorate stronger
Dash - Faster + profile lowered
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2010, 05:23:54 PM »
Any changes in CC known yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxPaSiWLUA#&t=9m50s

Did she get a damage buff? Probably a change in the proration for j[c]. 7k on VSion not starting from an aerial.

No, the reason that combo did so much damage was because Vsion has terrible defense and BAB had terrible timing for damage reduction. 
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Offline Rayza

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 09:35:24 AM »
Any changes in CC known yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxPaSiWLUA#&t=9m50s

Did she get a damage buff? Probably a change in the proration for j[c]. 7k on VSion not starting from an aerial.

No, the reason that combo did so much damage was because Vsion has terrible defense and BAB had terrible timing for damage reduction. 

also note perfect starter (2b 5c)
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Offline BurstOfAnger

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 07:08:15 PM »
So 2a prorates THAT much?
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Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 03:47:56 PM »
Quote
C-Sion:
JA - Duration increased

It's hitbox is still probably out of the screen.. Now 1.000001 frame then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g84DeKxczz0#t=14:44
If you pause you'll see:

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Offline Tempered

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 06:19:30 PM »
Kind of hard to tell what happened there. Looks like it ran out of active frames.
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 06:21:05 PM »

The JA came out earlier than what you have shown-- what you are showing are the move's later recovery frames, which look almost exactly the same as the active frames, as shown below:


Red Circle obviously being the recovery frames, as well as Fwara 5A in the same position to show why her JA whiffed.

...Also just to clear up confusion, I'm pretty damn sure Sion's JA never had any such properties. I've checked both mbac/mbaa vsion/sion JA and they all have the same style hitbox, shown below:

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Offline ehrik

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 06:38:22 PM »
Nice play by play analysis Dr. Roku!
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Offline fiendmaw

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2011, 03:43:33 AM »
Aw yeah Roku,you got 'em good. 8-)
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Offline Inso

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2011, 09:29:39 AM »
Really good shit, framedata presentation ftw xD
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Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 01:53:23 PM »
Nice, Roku xDD

Yeah, I was not serious, but I'm really pissed at j.A's hitbox and duration frames... And they buffed, but it's still the same shit... And it seems C-VSion didnt get the j.A duration inscreased too, only C-Sion, what pissed me too...

The first image is MBAC's and the second is MBAA's right? There is a huge difference in the hitboxes. In the first image the hitbox begins in the foot. In the second image it begins when 30%+ of the space between knee and foot is gone... That makes a ridiculous difference for an A attack (allowing such image I've posted to be possible). No wonder if you guys got confused by looking at that image is because something is wrong, or else you would just know about it and don't get confused.

They should change the animation. In MBAC that j.A would obviously hit from there (or even higher). In other words the animation was much more coherent with the attack data. It's funny to see C-Sion players in air now... They have to go for j.B allday even though it's not really a good move... Also her cool combos are gone and if she wants damage she has to go Nero's way j.C j.C j.C j.C. Even her 214C got nerfed (it was a gimmick in the corner and Sion was used to end much closer). And when, according to Rowan's statistic site, the only character least popular then Sion was Mech-Hisui back in MBAC. Or Melty Blood community is all about character love and they hate Sion, or Sion wasnt that strong. They should delete this moon already if it's for such a cool character to be ridiculed this way xD.

Phew. Sorry guys, but I feel lighter now :3
And I was correct, wasnt I? Wasnt the hitbox outside the screen? :laffo:
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:58:22 PM by Cristu »
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2011, 10:27:31 AM »
They should change the animation. In MBAC that j.A would obviously hit from there (or even higher). In other words the animation was much more coherent with the attack data.

The whole point of nerfing jAs was so that you can't mindlessly jump around and hit jA while being ultra safe.  That being said, they can't really change the animation.  Why?  If they make it shorter then it's back to MBAC status where jAs recover very quickly.  The way they are right now is how they should be imo.  They're good enough to catch moves in startup but they aren't so gdlk that you can't just throw them out all the time.

It's funny to see C-Sion players in air now... They have to go for j.B allday even though it's not really a good move...

Sion jB is GREAT.

Also her cool combos are gone and if she wants damage she has to go Nero's way j.C j.C j.C j.C.

Yeah, this is lame.  I miss her MBAC combos.

And when, according to Rowan's statistic site, the only character least popular then Sion was Mech-Hisui back in MBAC. Or Melty Blood community is all about character love and they hate Sion, or Sion wasnt that strong.

Japan used her quite a bit in MBAC. 

And I was correct, wasnt I? Wasnt the hitbox outside the screen? :laffo:

No, you weren't.
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 10:54:10 AM »
Quote
C-Sion:
JA - Duration increased

It's hitbox is still probably out of the screen.. Now 1.000001 frame then?

Sion's jA duration in console is 5 frames of start-up, 4 active frames, and some recovery frames (not sure how many, but prolly about 7 like 5A). Total of about 16 frames.
So 'jA duration increase' may not mean more active frames. Most normals in the game have 4 active frames. It may mean more start-up or recovery frames...
The statement is too vague to tell what it means. All it tells us is that full jA animation is longer than it was before.

Offline Cristu

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2011, 12:06:55 PM »
Actually Sion's j.B is one of the worst moves to use as a main air footsie... Some people think that her j.C is good and if she preffers to use j.B instead of it is because it's really good, but her j.C is the worst in the game... It's not even close to V.Sion's j.C and it's only useful to use after j.A or j.B... That is the reason why Sion players use j.B. But in Melty Blood now every character have good air footsies, making even V.Sion's j.C just "normal", so Sion's j.B is really bad as it has poor range and if you whiff you'll get comboed and you can't risk using j.AB because j.A now whiffs allday. With this Sion has simply no option in the air, and she has to use j.B because it's the "least bad". Her airset was already by far the weakest one even in MBAC, but she could adapt it because of j.A godlike properties (eg. ground dash j.A or airdash j.AC/AB/ABC/ACB/AAAA guard break, etc). The j.A was her main neutral game move by far..

In general she had a bad neutral games (no priority in air, no range in land), but the compensation was her amazing pressure with plenty of options, higher damage in the game and safe strings. The oki after her airthrow was her main weapon as her options after that were so strong. And with all this in MBAC the only player who did good with her was Kubo... There was actually only 4 Sion players: Kubo, Buta, Yuu and TTK... While every other char had more players but Maids and maybe White Len...

Then they make her airthrow, the key of her pressure, techable, nerf brutally her only decent air footsie (j.A), nerf her string options, her dash, her damage, her overhead and make her look dumb with funny combos... Yuu, who is the most notable Sion player got ranked down on danisen 2 times in a row, and was playing H-Akiha and C-Satsuki, but it seems after all the time specializing in Sion he's not inspired to play other characters as it's visible he didn't do very well... I may be wrong, but even Kiriya who played H-Sion was playing F-Arcueid... If Yuu and Kiriya really dropped her, the only three Sion player in JP right now are probably Chest with F, Shishido with C and Kamoshio with H... But there arent videos of them for a while now.. I don't even know if they're still playing =/

About the animation: I didn't mean they have to change the recovery frames, only the animation. The way it is now what you see is far from what is happening: the very reason why people didnt understand the image I've posted... They should make her kick look shorter and end more quick, even if the recovery frames will be the same, so it wont confuse the players..

Quote
C-Sion:
JA - Duration increased

It's hitbox is still probably out of the screen.. Now 1.000001 frame then?

Sion's jA duration in console is 5 frames of start-up, 4 active frames, and some recovery frames (not sure how many, but prolly about 7 like 5A). Total of about 16 frames.
So 'jA duration increase' may not mean more active frames. Most normals in the game have 4 active frames. It may mean more start-up or recovery frames...
The statement is too vague to tell what it means. All it tells us is that full jA animation is longer than it was before.

That sounds a reasonable explanation. Sad though ={
Thanks for explaining that..
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 12:14:54 PM by Cristu »
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2011, 01:42:21 PM »
....... :slowpoke:


...Incoming nuke directed at Cristu; Cristu, brace yourself for impact.




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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2011, 07:43:10 PM »
Actually Sion's j.B is one of the worst moves to use as a main air footsie

It's good for hitting people below you. 

her j.C is the worst in the game... It's not even close to V.Sion's j.C and it's only useful to use after j.A or j.B...



Top is Sion.  Bottom is VSion. 

Sion's j.B is really bad as it has poor range and if you whiff you'll get comboed



Spacing defensively, people whiff these moves all day.  Used properly on offense these moves are good.  Sion jB has a similar hitbox to FTohno jB/Miyako jC.  It's a very good move.

Her airset was already by far the weakest one even in MBAC, but she could adapt it because of j.A godlike properties (eg. ground dash j.A or airdash j.AC/AB/ABC/ACB/AAAA guard break, etc). The j.A was her main neutral game move by far..

The thing is, this isn't MBAC anymore.  The reason her air game wasn't that strong was because other character's jAs were obscenely good.  Now that other characters jAs got massively nerfed her other air normals(jB, jC) are great.  Her overall air moveset in MBAA is great.  j214a catches antiairs in startup, j2C is another good air to ground normal, jB can be good air to air or air to ground, jC is great if they're above you, and j[c] can be used for movement tricks or to fish for CH after air dp ender.  Even jA can be used if you want to catch someone in startup.  She still struggles in neutral but that's the result of her weak ground game. 

In general she had a bad neutral games (no priority in air, no range in land)

2c superarmor --> 214c --> big damage.  214b has hella range to catch unsafe long range pokes/mindless falling down actions.  She didn't have the best neutral in the game but it was still respectable. 

Then they make her airthrow, the key of her pressure, techable

This is a problem a lot of characters in MBAA face.  C-Sion at least has the option to end combos in 214a/j214c to get oki.  And again, if she does air dp ender she can fish for CH effectively with jC/j[C].  If they respect falling down you can dp/airthrow to hit them anyways.

nerf her string options

The only "nerf" to her string options is that manual reload is slower.  But you can't bara bullets on block anymore now either, which makes bullet pressure waaaay more gdlk. 

her dash

Pretty sure her dash is 100% the same.

her damage

She still has really good damage off j[c] loop.  She doesn't have as much damage off oki enders, but again, that's a pretty universal nerf in MBAA. 

her overhead

Her overhead is the same minus low invulnerability.  That's a very minor nerf when you consider how easy it is for her to CH people for mashing. 

Chest with F

Is that the orange F-Sion?

About the animation: I didn't mean they have to change the recovery frames, only the animation. The way it is now what you see is far from what is happening: the very reason why people didnt understand the image I've posted... They should make her kick look shorter and end more quick, even if the recovery frames will be the same, so it wont confuse the players..

They could do that but I'm guessing they probably didn't because it'd look awkward to see the move visually end but have you in a state where you can't do anything.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 10:29:35 AM by Tonberry »
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Offline Tempered

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2011, 10:48:39 PM »
man I said what happened without the goddamned frame data. no don't listen to the man dumb enough to play this s&m queen.

about her air normals. You gotta be above or below the opponent. Sion is STRONGEST above or below her opponent. j.b and j.2c destroy alot of anti airs as well as properly timed j.214s. j.c also actually beats kouma 2b. Its why choco plays hvsion and fhisui. Couldn't take that shit. but who cares about that faggot. Nanaya and len j.c got you down? fuck that noise j.c from under them. its faster. Sion doesn't do good in the air on an equal plane. You have to deal with shit like ciel j.b, warc j.b, len j.b, nanaya j.a, wara j.b, nero j.c, kohaku j.b, faoko j.b blah blah blah. Now don't let me get you down. j.c and j.b do good their jobs air to air no matter the circumstance, but they have their sweet spots, and other moves are better.

Also on ground sion makes zoners rage. cMech or fAkiha trying to throw shit at you? 214a. Holy shit in like 9 frames you just gave yourself massive initiative. Against bulldog types you'll have some trouble sure. But she makes up for that with arguably the best dp in the game and her 421 series phasing you through shit

I am also very sad at her air throw nerf, but her post air throw game is still good in the corner. They cant tech nuetral or back or you can react with j214c. and forward techs you can 2a. neutral? 214a or dp ender for combos.

Dont take this as an angry rant. im a very sarcastic person. Sion takes grinding, but not of combos. She requires grinding of making things go ACCORDING TO HER CALCULATIONS.
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Offline fiendmaw

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2011, 11:21:41 PM »
Sion probably has the best consistent damage in the game outside of PCiel,its just really hard and exec instensive to do that,rather than just mindless 214C/421C into jbcjbc.
(Also complaining about having nero-like combos,when all she does in mbac is ground normals into launcher into standard jBCjBCadj.C combos,those are are much more exciting amirite).
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2011, 07:24:51 AM »
Also complaining about having nero-like combos,when all she does in mbac is ground normals into launcher into standard jBCjBCadj.C combos,those are are much more exciting amirite.

lollllll
She did waaay more then that.
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Offline Inso

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2011, 08:39:20 AM »
Grown men crying is such a sad thing to see...

Since I discussed this with Cristu once, I can understand some things he says.
- 2C lost armor in AA (did she got it back in CC?)
- j.C is slower than V.Sion's, meaning it can get contested much easily (tho as was said here, if it can be contested, you're using it wrong)
- her overhead lost low body invul, so now she has to deal with scrubbing just like the rest of the mortal chars.
- losing her grab oki ruined her easy game of "put in corner, blockstring some and overhead randomnly for much win"
- she lost some extensive and "hype" combos

Ppl who got familiar with her in AC have trouble seeing that it is almost a different game for her now, and you have to adapt accordingly or get bodied. Being spoiled won't get you anywhere, and she is still a good and viable character regardless of how much better you think she was before.

But bottom line, you guys shouldn't argue with Cristu, he actually thinks that her j.C is bad. There is no salvation for him.  :mystery:
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 08:59:40 AM by Inso »
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2011, 10:28:06 AM »
You have to deal with shit like nanaya j.a, kohaku j.b

These moves can only catch you in startup. 

The only part of Koha jB that will ever win against Sion jB/jC if their active frames come out at the same time is definitely not on the same plane. 



Any normal that's active will CH Kohaku jB in startup 100% if its anywhere that her jB will hit because her hitbox gets extended before the attack comes out.  This is what makes jump back jB/jC from a lot of characters very effective against Kohaku.  From far away it's very difficult to punish and generally the reward is a lot smaller for her in terms of damage. 
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Offline Tempered

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2011, 10:52:16 AM »
Yes, while jump back/IABD j.c strong vs kohaku (and everyone really), the same is the opposite. Kohaku jump back j.b is probably better. Also if you're constantly doing that, and down on life, you're gonna corner yourself. and then trying to go around kohaku or fight back out? fun time. and for nanaya j.a. The point is that itll beat you out of start up. when hes in your face its hard to beat out that move without getting above him to j.a/j.b. but look at me cherry pick.

anyways I just have trouble with  most of the moves I picked out. Probably doesn't help that most Kohaku players are better than me or my tendency to want to super jump blindly at my opponent in an attempt to get in. but meh. Kohaku j.b is a good move. and so is sions.

Also lay off cristu imo. I felt the same way he was starting in this game. And honestly he's going to feel that way about any character until he gets better. Encourage the newcomers!

Sion probably has the best consistent damage in the game outside of PCiel,its just really hard and exec instensive to do that,rather than just mindless 214C/421C into jbcjbc.
(Also complaining about having nero-like combos,when all she does in mbac is ground normals into launcher into standard jBCjBCadj.C combos,those are are much more exciting amirite).

Sions had hype as hell 421c combos. Good ole sync cutter. Fuck i want my reload combo back.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 10:57:04 AM by Tempered »
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Offline Inso

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2011, 11:25:27 AM »
Also lay off cristu imo. I felt the same way he was starting in this game. And honestly he's going to feel that way about any character until he gets better. Encourage the newcomers!
He is no newcomer, the problem is that he played a lot of MBAC, but not that much of MBAA to get a good feel of what those changes really imply. Wait... I guess that makes him sort of a newcomer...  :psyduck:
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: MBAACC Sion
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2011, 12:44:15 PM »
Yes, while jump back/IABD j.c strong vs kohaku (and everyone really), the same is the opposite. Kohaku jump back j.b is probably better.

Kohaku jump back jB can catch people jumping at her from above but as the horizontal range on it is fairly limited it's not that great for catching people from the side.  If you're fairly close and try to put out a move then she can catch your extended hitbox but you don't need to be really scared of moving forward on the ground or the air towards her.  Now if H/F put out jC like that then it's pretty scary...but she still needs to be more worried about jumping at you with jB then the other way around.

Also if you're constantly doing that, and down on life, you're gonna corner yourself. and then trying to go around kohaku or fight back out? fun time.

There is no reason to constantly do that unless they are being mindless with putting out jB.  If they are, then you'll CH them by doing it constantly.  If they're not, and they're not F, you can start jumping/IADing at them because now they're too scared to put out jB. 

and for nanaya j.a. The point is that itll beat you out of start up. when hes in your face its hard to beat out that move without getting above him to j.a/j.b. but look at me cherry pick.

The reason I picked those two moves is to point out that you can beat them in both active frames AND in startup.  On the other hand, the only time they can hit you out of moves is during startup.  Is that impossible to do?  No.  Does that require them to pick when they're going to put those moves out more carefully?  Yes.

Also lay off cristu imo. I felt the same way he was starting in this game. And honestly he's going to feel that way about any character until he gets better. Encourage the newcomers!

Imo, it'll be easier for him to improve if he listens to more experienced players rather then thinking "oh these moves are garbage, better not ever use them."  If you never use Sion jB/jC it'll take a hell of a lot longer to learn her than it should.
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