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Poll

Should the 2008 Melty Cup allow the use of the Duplicate Characters in teams?

Yes - Allow duplicate characters
15 (29.4%)
No - 1 character per team.
29 (56.9%)
I've lost interest in Melty Cup.
7 (13.7%)

Total Members Voted: 51

Author Topic: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll  (Read 4842 times)

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Offline Numakie

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2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« on: May 27, 2008, 08:22:32 PM »
I write this subject as a supplement to the "2008 Melty Cup - US Championships" with regards to the "Same Characters" Rule. 

There is a debate within the main thread whether or not to allow the use of the same characters in a 3 man team for the tournament at Evo 2008. The 2008 Melty Cup - US Championships" thread started ever since August 29, 2007, 9 months ago, and was edited last since  March 17, 2008, 2 months ago, prior to the update of the rules posted by Arlieth on May 27, 2008 at 02:56:37 PM PST.  Before, the only restriction within the rules for the "2008 Melty Cup" was "Locked Characters", meaning that players must stick with a single character throughout the entire tournament

Because there was no other set restrictions, this meant that a team of players can enter the 2008 Melty Cup with 2 to 3 duplicate characters in a 3 man team. 

However, As of May 27, 2008 at 02:55:13 PM PST,  a little over one month prior to the "2008 Melty Cup" The rules have been updated to include "No duplicate characters" in a 3 man team. While it is a good call to make this official, it is inconvenient to impose a rule that was not previously stated for such a long period of time.

To add to this, the update to the rules were made after a certain team announced that they were going to enter the tournament with same characters.  This was followed with assumptions that  same character teams weren't allowed. However this was countered with the fact that there was nothing that stated these same character restrictions.

Facts aside, there were also signs of interest of people wanting to entering the tournament with same characters as well as people disagreeing with the 'Same Characters" rule.

That is where this poll comes in. Should the 2008 Melty Cup allow the use of the Duplicate Characters in teams?  If you can, please state your reasons and/or opinions as well.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 08:26:46 PM by Numakie »
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Offline Choco

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2008, 08:39:33 PM »
I vote same characters. This will allow for more team combinations and not require people to choose teammates based on the character they play. The regional restriction has been removed, so remove the character restriction. If you want the restriction in place, make a damn good argument for it, as I cannot think of any while playing devil's advocate.

Offline Tempered

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2008, 09:53:42 PM »
Honestly I dont care but I dont see a reason not to allow same character teams. It works as a disadvantage imo. Once you beat one character youve technically got an upperhand with haveing that characters moves, tricks, and counters fresh in your mind.
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Offline Zaido

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 01:19:31 AM »
unless the first person uberly sucks
and the 2nd person is uberly crazy

then ur basically stuck with suck strats  :prinny: :prinny: :prinny:

then its like

ok we gona have 3 vsion on one time

3x the rush down

3x the power

3x the the wish to die faster  :blah:
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Offline kimjjo

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2008, 08:20:23 AM »
From an audience's point of view, same char teams are boring to watch.
It's not like we have amazingly skilled players that have distinct styles of their own that stand out,
the same chars are going to have relatively same tactics/combos.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 08:22:40 AM by kimjjo »

Offline Lord Knight

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2008, 08:50:58 AM »
No same character teams plz. Not only does it promote tier whoring (Team Ciel, Team Warc, etc) but it promotes dumb gimmicky teams in what's supposed to be a serious tournament.
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Offline Kryojenix

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2008, 11:05:18 AM »
No same character teams plz. Not only does it promote tier whoring (Team Ciel, Team Warc, etc) but it promotes dumb gimmicky teams in what's supposed to be a serious tournament.

Sorry Knight, I don't think you're looking far enough ahead (I used to think the same thing until I thought this out more thoroughly).  Unique Character Teams do not prevent tier whoring because all the tier whores are still going to play, just in different teams.  Now with a Ciel on every single team, we're much more likely to see every single Ciel play...the exact same way...with plenty of Ciel vs Ciel matches (BORING!).  Now consider if Duplicate Character Teams were allowed.  Now, all the tier whores would be teamed together.  Now we're much LESS likely to see Ciel mirrors as well as not having to see some play at all.

Now, I can no longer confidently claim that this tournament is going to turn out as serious as it was hyped up to be, but I would very much like it to be so.  I want to see a tournament in which everyone puts in their damned best effort to show some pride and take first place while they're at it.  Part of putting in your damned best effort includes organizing a team designed to optimize your chances of winning by recruiting the best players available (in the current stage of U.S. Melty's evolution, that implies seeing a lot of the same characters).  In the case of "gimmicky" teams, bare in mind that no one's going to pay $50 just to screw around.  If people believe that their under appreciated character deserves more attention and wants to show just how much damage he/she's capable of, let them.  You know that they're going to try their best.

On a final note, the hype of this tournament has been bleeding out and many are losing interest in entering at all.  There are plenty of players who don't expect to win but still want to enter to have fun (believe it or not, I'm already aware of some top CA players that consider themselves in this category) but are now deciding to avoid Melty Cup altogether in lieu of inimical rules.  Allowing a greater variety in possible team combinations by allowing Same Character Teams will coax some of these players back in.  While I'd prefer that everyone puts their best foot forward, I'm not going to oppose entries in which the team does not expect to win.  It just means more money for the winners.

That's my two cents.  This is based upon my opinion so I'm aware of the possibility that my reasoning may be flawed.  HOWEVER, I urge any arguments to the contrary to have more substance than just a few unsupported reasons as all support for Unique Character Teams thus far have been very weak.  I mean no disrespect.  My intention is strictly to convince, not offend, and I believe my arguments can be shared by both sides of this issue.

P.S.  LET'S BRING THE FUCKING HYPE BACK!!!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 11:10:23 AM by Kryojenix »
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Offline Zaido

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2008, 01:24:34 PM »
i am probably going to sound like an asshole...

it looks to me you want to keep this same character rule so you can just team with Kijea instead of having to fight him like anyone else.

i am only saying it seems.. so dont take what i just said seriously...
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Offline kimjjo

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2008, 03:04:20 PM »
Unique Character Teams do not prevent tier whoring because all the tier whores are still going to play, just in different teams.  Now with a Ciel on every single team, we're much more likely to see every single Ciel play...the exact same way...with plenty of Ciel vs Ciel matches (BORING!).  Now consider if Duplicate Character Teams were allowed.  Now, all the tier whores would be teamed together.  Now we're much LESS likely to see Ciel mirrors as well as not having to see some play at all.

If there's a ciel/random/random team vs ciel/random/random team vs a ciel/random/random team, we might see a Ciel vs Ciel matches that might be boring, but we see only few of it. If it's ciel/ciel/ciel team vs random/random/random team, we see ciel at least three times in one tournament round. To me at least, few mirror match is much better than sitting through watching a round where the entire team is just ciel again and again regardless of whether they win or lose. Percentage wise, ciels (I'm just using ciel for no reason) spread out in teams would create small chance of mirror matches as it's 3 on 3, while 3 ciels on a team would mean 100% matches of that team being consecutively ciel. I have no problem seeing any one character play. As with any fighting games, it's just boring if one has to see it repeatedly.

If this rule somehow discourages people who would have entered to not enter, then I'm all for not using this rule. However, I do not see how such a common rule inconveniences people to such an extent that they will not play at all. If you were gunning for the title with every possible tool that can be used that might have an effect, but if you were entering to have fun playing competitive matches while trying for the title, teaming up with someone else would not be such a problem.

In fact, there are tournaments called random tournaments. They're where people just show up and get randomly assigned a teammate to play with. It probably can't be used in the Melty Cup because of it's seriousness (cost & reputation), but it's a fun type of a tournament where the focus really just becomes having fun playing competitive matches.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 03:17:17 PM by kimjjo »

Offline Choco

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2008, 03:44:29 PM »
I don't care about the spectators. They can BAAAWWW about how boring it'll be if they want, but the tournament is for the player battles and the results.

Offline Kryojenix

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2008, 04:05:42 PM »
i am probably going to sound like an asshole...

it looks to me you want to keep this same character rule so you can just team with Kijea instead of having to fight him like anyone else.

i am only saying it seems.. so dont take what i just said seriously...

oh don't worry about me.  kijea and i are teaming regardless.  i'll just be using an alt if the current rules stick around.  but i have no problem fighting him.  frankly, mech vs mech fights are quite enjoyable for me.  but i'd still like very much to use mech instead of an alt for a tournament of this magnitude.  we're teaming up because we're friends, not because i'm afraid to play him.  keep in mind, i'm one of only two people to have beaten him in a tournament.

still, i'll be the first to admit, my reason for supporting Same Character Teams is selfish.  even as friends, I have no intention of being outshadowed.  we both want to win and we both want to showcase our mech.  we decided the best way to do that was to team together.  but if the rules want to force one of use to dumb down our game, then so be it...  but my request and support of said request are not unreasonable.

If there's a ciel/random/random team vs ciel/random/random team vs a ciel/random/random team, we might see a Ciel vs Ciel matches that might be boring, but we see only few of it. If it's ciel/ciel/ciel team vs random/random/random team, we see ciel at least three times in one tournament round. To me at least, few mirror match is much better than sitting through watching a round where the entire team is just ciel again and again regardless of whether they win or lose. Percentage wise, ciels (I'm just using ciel for no reason) spread out in teams would create small chance of mirror matches as it's 3 on 3, while 3 ciels on a team would mean 100% matches of that team being consecutively ciel. I have no problem seeing any one character play. As with any fighting games, it's just boring if one has to see it repeatedly.

If this rule somehow discourages people who would have entered to not enter, then I'm all for not using this rule. However, I do not see how such a common rule inconveniences people to such an extent that they will not play at all. If you were gunning for the title with every possible tool that can be used that might have an effect, but if you were entering to have fun playing competitive matches while trying for the title, teaming up with someone else would not be such a problem.

In fact, there are tournaments called random tournaments. They're where people just show up and get randomly assigned a teammate to play with. It probably can't be used in the Melty Cup because of it's seriousness (cost & reputation), but it's a fun type of a tournament where the focus really just becomes having fun playing competitive matches.

You're thinking too hard.  Don't bother with percentages since there are no hard numbers to work with.  Just think of this logically.  Take an x number of Ciel players (poor Ciel).  Now spread them across an x number of teams.  Now almost every set has the potential to have Ciel mirrors.

Now, condense the x amount of Ciel players into anywhere between x/3 and x number of teams.  That means there are more teams that won't even have one Ciel so more chance that a set will occur where we don't have to see even one Ciel play much less a mirror.  Not that this is really of any concern.  This is a serious (at least I hope it is) tournament, not exhibition matches.  No one cares what the audience has to watch.  But for the sake of the audience, the Top Eight matches are supposed to comprise of top players.  Forcing players to spread out based on characters only increases the chance of fodder hitching a ride to the top and top players stuck with weaker teammates being eliminated.  THAT will be boring.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 04:42:36 PM by Kryojenix »
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2008, 05:19:15 PM »
Assuming 3 ciels in the tournament...

Possible ciel mirrors if all ciels are on the same team: 0
Possible ciel mirriors in one round if they are spread out: 1
Possible games with ciel in one round if they are all on the same team: 5
Possible games with ciel in one round if they are spread out: 9
Minimum games with ciel in one round if they are all on the same team: 3
Minimum games with ciel in one round if they are spread out: 0

This thread existing makes me want to vomit.

And no same character teams promote tier whoring because you can't have 3x johnny dropping kohakus.  There are actual logical reasons as to why it promotes tier whoring but since the only stated reason is 3x ciel I'll just leave it at that.(PS if you're complaining about tier whoring you're a scrub)

Offline Choco

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 06:16:23 PM »
I can beat Ciel with my bottom-tier Satsuki. Maybe this won't always happen, but I'm very confident about my character with the game's worst matchups against the character who has the game's best matchups. Tier whoring in Melty is not a factor.

Offline Zaelar

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2008, 06:57:27 PM »
Picking anyone other than W.Len or nekos is tier whoring in melty.  It becomes a factor if you think of it like that...well...at least as much of a factor that it could be anyway.

Offline c-nero 5[c]

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2008, 11:31:08 PM »
Holy fuck, who cares? Let people team with who they want and play whatever character they want, this is melty not fucking king of fighters stop bitching about tiers.
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Offline MagnusXL

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2008, 01:54:04 AM »
My first impulse is to vote "only one of each character per team", but I couldn't think of a good enough reason to support this. Sure, three Kohakus on a single team could be pretty ghey. But let's say, for example, they get paired off against a good Miyako player. That Miyako player has probably foughten Kohaku numerous times, and there's a good chance that they'll know all of Kohaku's tricks. What if none of those Kohaku players haven gotten the chance to fight Miyako that many times? They would be at a major disadvantage as Miyako warmed up for each and every one of them.

Sure, teams would be more interesting if they each had multiple different characters. However, if you're going to pay $50 to enter the tournament, you should be able to enter with whoever the hell you want playing whoever the hell you want.

If the spectators don't like it, they can go suck a cock.

In the case of "gimmicky" teams, bare in mind that no one's going to pay $50 just to screw around.
I would, sheerly because I'd lose if I were to enter anyways. When I enter tournaments it's to have fun, not because I'm going to win (though winning is fine, too). =D
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Offline Kryojenix

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2008, 03:32:32 PM »
I don't care which way this issue goes anymore.  If the rules stick, that just means that the idea of US's only two MECHs teaming together scares everyone and I'll take that as a compliment.  Don't bother w/ a feeble rebuttle about character variety.  This is a big tournament for big money.  Winning is the issue, not character variety.  But if people want to up their chances w/ rules, I'll just have to enter with...say...a top tier character that everyone else uses?  ::)  Either way, good luck to everyone and all your monies are belong to us.   :prinny:
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Offline Numakie

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 04:25:03 PM »
Might as well share how i feel on the subject.

I was the first to bring up the idea of the 3x Hisui team. At first it started as a joke, but now it has become something a bit more serious to a point where if i dont get my 3x team, I might not want to enter this anymore.  Sure I might run into a team of Sions, Ciels or Mech-Hisui's in the process if same characters are allowed, but you know what? I don't really give a damn.  I am willing to give it my all to beat the crap out of them characters cuz I am that confident with my ability to play my main.  There is a bit of character pride going into this, enough that I am willing to put my money in (and team together) with other players who use Hisui as well.

This brings up another question. Will you enter the Melty Cup if the "Same characters allowed" rule is set?   In my case, it is a difference of me entering or not entering.

On another note: I will continue saying that this character rule should have been set in stone at the very beginning. Now this whole character issue is as is right now, a crazy mess.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 06:55:17 PM by Numakie »
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2008, 07:47:55 PM »
I'd rather have to go against a team of Ciels, a team of Sions, and a team of Mech-Hisuis instead of 3 teams with one of each.

Offline S-Blade

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 07:48:38 AM »
I'd rather have to go against a team of Ciels, a team of Sions, and a team of Mech-Hisuis instead of 3 teams with one of each.

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Offline Arlieth Tralare

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2008, 02:48:40 AM »
Hmm. Vote poll does not seem to support Same Characters. Any thoughts...?
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Offline Sp00ky

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2008, 03:09:42 AM »
I'm indifferent. This decision won't effect who I team with or how I approach my matches in any way.

I do think that a 3 on 3 = large enough teams that there could be potential conflict on characters if same character is not allowed. Since we are the U.S. and not Japan after all.

I agree with 'we do not have to follow everyone else's tournament rules to a T' but I also acknowledge that more people do NOT want same character and want this to be a more traditional tournament rather than a gimmick one especially since it will be the premier Team tourney for the year (and possibly forever with mb:aa around the corner.)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 03:15:43 AM by Sp00ky »

Offline Tempered

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2008, 03:19:44 AM »
Hmm. Vote poll does not seem to support Same Characters. Any thoughts...?

1) people makeing alt accounts to turn the poll in their favor.

2) People hate Numakie and dont want to grant him team Hisui.
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Offline Kryojenix

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2008, 08:33:45 AM »
Analysis: poll shows that Unique Character Teams are more popular.  The thread itself shows stronger argument for Duplicate Character Teams.

Personal Thought: the rule won't change who I team with, only the character I'll use during Melty Cup.  It would be nice if I could play with my best character but I've invested so much time into my side-mains that it doesn't make too much of a difference at this point.
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Offline Numakie

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Re: 2008 Melty Cup - "Same Character" Poll
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2008, 10:03:06 AM »
The date for Evo is drawing near.  I don't care either way at this point.  Just make a final decision with the characters and stick with it so I or anyone else am not left guessing.  :-\
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