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Offline LoliSauce

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Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« on: August 08, 2009, 02:10:53 PM »
Hey, I wanted to get some sort comprehensive reference for inexperienced people trying to host tourneys and such.  That recent newb tourney thread made me realize that this sort of a reference guide could help a lot of people.  Think you more experienced guys out there could help chime in with some input?

The base things I would like to cover:
-Equipment - What stuff to bring, how many setups to have based on attendance, good recording materials, tourney making software for brackets and such
-Location - What's acceptable or not acceptable for the loc, important things to have accessible (nearby food or places to sleep for visitors)
-Rules - What are some common tourney formats and rules for each
-Rewards - What are the best ways to set up monetary rewards, what are common ways to divvy out ranbat points
-Etc - Any other things to think about for future tourney hosts

I'll be updating this first post with the info that you guys put in and eventually making this a sticky once it's satisfactory. 
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Offline mizuki

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2009, 05:29:51 PM »
A lot of things depend on how many people, how many games you're running at a tourney, how many people are helping you run the tourney, and how much time you have.

On equipment numbers, for tourneys with 30+ people, I would have 1 setup per 10 entries. Anything smaller than 30 can be ran on 2 setups. This also depends on the game, games such as ST can have 2 setups for a 50 man tourney, the game is so fast it doesn't matter, while games such as SF4 may need twice as many, as games take forever to end.

Location also depends on how long this tourney will be? Is it a major? is it just a local tourney? Either way, the one HUGE thing for a tourney location is: Is there cheap food within walking distance (usually meaning 2 blocks away at the farthest.) Also space depending on how many expected people, that also means if you only expect 50 people, don't rent out a giant ballroom, it's not cost efficient, and I hope you like screaming for people. Although smaller locations for a big number is totally doable (i.e. NEC) as long as you have people to hunt them down and stuff. If you're planning a major, you need cheap lodging for people, or if its not so cheap, people will stuff 10 people in a 1 bed room anyways.

Ruling for games goes like this, when in doubt, use EVO rule set if possible. Most of the time they're fair, and have explanations for them out anyways. If there is no way for an Evo rule set, always ask the community first. So many tourneys make mistakes and just say "these are the rules, deal with it, the end." You'll have people come, but won't enjoy the tourney, people will spread word and will be like "Oh hey, Dipstick's tourneys suck! It's only single elim! (GET AM ME SON)" and next time there will most likely be a less amount of entries, until there's non at all.

Rewards most of the time are 70/20/10 or the pot. There's other various ways such as prizes, but if you do, make sure they're appropriate. If you're holding a SF4 tourney out in Philly, don't give away Naruto figures or whatever. I have no idea for ranbat point distribution, I've never had to run one, I'm sure someone from Team Sp00ky can tell you what it is or scottind/Arlieth can.

Other things to keep in mind is communication. You need to make sure you tell people what's going on, let it be your staff, or your attendees. If you don't tell anyone anything, no one knows what the heck is going on, people will wander off, staff will have to waste time asking questions that should have been dealt with before, and other things. I've been to too many local tourneys, where none of the staff talk to each other to know what's happening, and have to find the guy running it, and that wastes 15 minutes sometimes, it's dumb. Also when your attendees have to go during their tourney, make sure they tell you before they leave. Tell them this, and give them incentives, such as "Tell me, I'll let you guys have 20 minutes from when you're supposed to play, but if you guys don't you'll only have 3 minutes, and I won't even think about giving you a second chance."

There's other things that I swear I should put in, but other people will probably post it up before I forget.
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2009, 02:12:22 AM »
I was going to make something like this, but I'm a lazy bum.  Parts of this are from memory, so please don't hang me if I missed something.

Equipment - If you're running a tournament you should already have an idea of what kind of equipment you need.  Obviously you need a setup for whatever game(s) you're running, more if it's a big enough tournament and you want to finish on time.  A way to record matches if you want to is, again, obvious.  Every tournament bracket program that I've looked at has had flaws.  Tio is horrible and should be burned to the ground.  Tournament Maker is ok for 16-man brackets, but iirc there's a problem with the 32-man double-elim bracket.  I don't recall others I've looked at off hand, but every one I looked at (which isn't all of them) had a problem somewhere.

Location - Can be anywhere that you can get people and equipment.  Everything else is personal preference.

Rules - Rules are really simple.  Just make the least amount of rules possible while covering every detail.  Always have a reason for your rules, and make sure your reason isn't dumb.  Don't ban anything in the game(/play) that isn't broken*.  For some random tournaments it's ok to have otherwise dumb rules like banning some random characters/attacks, but not for serious ones.  Don't just copy/paste some other tournament's rules, as from what I've seen most of them are crap.  This also has the problem of you not knowing why the rules are there.  *What's broken and what isn't is subjective.  Usually, if game play revolves around solely one thing/character/technique, it's usually broken.  Bugs and glitches will always be a touchy subject, but the usual consensus is if it isn't broken and doesn't cause any major problems(like freezing the game), they're allowed.

Rewards - Can be anything.  Most tournaments do 70/20/10 pot split, a bunch do 60/30/10, some do winner take all(usually for smaller ones).  Make sure it's something your participants will enjoy, like money.  As far as ranbat points, again, it can be anything.  The easiest is to just give every place a set amount of points(first gets 10, second gets 7, etc.).  One thing you should do is either have it so points diminish over time or have a complete reset where everyone starts back at square one at various time intervals.  This is so people who join late, or even just miss one event, will still have a chance to either catch up or can join in and compete on equal footing after the next reset.

Other things - As miz said, keep everyone informed about what's going on as much as possible.  Be clear and concise, don't let there be any confusion, whether it's in the rules or in directing the tournament.  For example, don't just tell four people that they play, tell people who they're playing, where they're playing, and what game they're playing if necessary.  Comfort is an issue that is generally ignored.  Having space to move around is fantastic.  Having chairs for everyone to sit in when watching is great.  While these things aren't exactly part of the tournament, they are a part of the event and can enhance or degrade the experience.  Most players are used to playing in bad conditions, but if it can be helped try to make them not so bad.

Tournament Format - In USA, double elim is the standard for most fighting games.  There are two other formats that I'll touch briefly on first.

Round Robin: Everyone plays everyone once, you count up wins, whoever has the most wins the tournament.  Note that once can mean a set of games, and whoever wins the set gets the point.  This is the longest format as well as the most accurate.  One drawback of this is it can potentially lead to ties, even for first place.  Often times the round robin format is modified, either involving a simple tie-breaker rule(either whoever won between the two wins or they play again), having different points won depending on by how much you win a match, having everyone just play a few times instead of just one, and many other ways.

Single Elimination: A very simple and crude format.  It's the shortest way to get a winner and unlike round robin it guarantees there will be no tie for first, however it is also the least accurate.  While first place is always correct(barring upsets, which elimination style formats handle worse than round robin style formats), the ranks after that are not nearly as accurate as they could be.  While getting second in a single elim tournament doesn't mean nothing, it doesn't mean nearly as much as getting second in almost any other format.  The idea is simple, if you lose you're out of the tournament, and if you win you play someone else until there's no-one left to play.  A bracket is used almost exclusively as a means of showing who plays/played who.

Another issue with single elimination is seeding, which is basically just your place on the bracket.  Your seed determines who you play, and thus the difference of playing someone good and someone bad.  For most tournaments seeding needs to be random, due to having no prior information.  You can't simply say "this person is better so they get a better seed", or you may as well not have the tournament and just post a results thread without even playing.  You can't just go by so and so ranking(like another random tournament), that isn't fair for people who didn't make that tournament.  If you really don't like random what you can do is have a ranbat, which is basically just a series of events where you either get some form of points or ranking and seed based off of that.  You can either seed by rank a certain amount of people(like top 4/8/whatever), or everyone.  This needs to be announced in advance of the first tournament in the series so everyone knows what to expect.  This basically turns each tournament into a smaller part of a larger event, whereas the whole series is essentially one big tournament with each individual tournament being the metaphorical matches of the big tournament.

Single Elimination also has a concept not present in round robin, which is byes.  Single elimination is only a 'complete bracket' if you have a power of 2 number of people(2, 4, 8, 16, etc.).  If you have 15, one person gets a bye in the first round, which essentially means they win without having to play.  All byes will be eliminated in the first round; no one ever gets two byes.  If you have 9 people, 7 get a bye in the first round, leaving two people to play for a spot in a virtual 8-man tournament.  This isn't a big advantage for placement, especially when you consider they could have just played a horrible player instead for an easy win since it's always only the first round.  In a very small tournament it can be an advantage(or a disadvantage) for external reasons(like not getting a chance to warm up before an important match), but this doesn't change that the best, barring any upsets, will always win.  (Statistically getting the bye is an advantage just because it's one less chance for you to get upset, but again if the tournament is of any reasonable size it isn't likely to change the results past the last couple of places which aren't accurate to begin with)

Double Elimination is exactly the same as single elimination, except instead of being out of the tournament when you lose once, you have to lose twice.  This means that there is two brackets, one for people who haven't lost, and one for people who have lost once.  The winner's bracket works exactly the same as in single elim, but the loser's is tricky and I've seen many people, and brackets, mess up on it.  The basic idea is that people will be moved into the losers bracket so that they enter on a level that keeps an even number of people in winners and losers and so that they are less likely to run into the same person twice(more on this later).  When there is one person left in winner's, and one in loser's, they play each other but the one in loser's has to win twice due to it being the person in winner's first loss and you need to lose twice to be out.  This tournament takes only twice as long(approx., slightly longer) as single elimination, but gets much better accuracy beyond first place.  In double elim, first and second are always correct, and the next few places have a high probability of being correct too.  As you get further from first the accuracy declines, however it is much more accurate than single elim.  Getting half way through a double elim tournament probably means you're about better than half the people there, whereas getting half way through a single elim tournament doesn't mean much.  If you have a consistent group of players and have ranbats and seed by rank the accuracy of the middle places goes up a fair amount.  As usual, this also depends on no upsets and due to the somewhat random nature of the lower end the accuracy bump isn't likely to be noticeable in real-world situations, although it can help to nullify one or two extremes.

One of the things I've seen many people, and bracket programs, make a mistake on is part of the loser's bracket.  It's possible for two people to play each other twice, which is commonly called double jeopardy.  This is normal.  A proper bracket will spread people out to avoid this as much as possible.  It also avoids similar situations, such as if A beat B, A beat C, B and C playing each other in losers.  I've seen people both not separate people in losers properly which creates many of these situations, which in turn lowers the accuracy of third- places, as well as move people around in the brackets to places they shouldn't go, which while avoids direct double jeopardy(only temporarily), it creates similar situations to A>B, A>C, B vs C, which is just as bad as far as final placement goes.  Even if you always move people who played each other away from each other, it doesn't even improve third place's accuracy(it shifts the accuracy around for some places though, some become more accurate some less).  Just don't do it.

One final note, and this is in regards to the fighting game community specifically as it doesn't apply to all communities, is that many tournaments choose to seed by location, meaning you get separated from your friends/people you play a lot so you play other people in tournament.  Firstly, this isn't something that should be done in serious play, however there is a grey area here.  It does suck to travel to a tournament only to play your friends, but the tournament doesn't care about that.  I don't want to get into the intricate details of it here, but seeding by location may have an effect on the results, however due to how the community currently is, many, myself included, feel the potential accuracy loss is a fair price to pay for not playing your friends early on in a tournament.  One of the things that you can't do is seed by both location and ranbat.  As an example, lets say my neighbor and I go to a ranbat.  My neighbor has 4000 points, the most out of anyone there.  I have 3 for getting fifth place when there were five entries on a rainy day.  I now suddenly get to be on the opposite side
of the bracket from the best person there just because we're neighbors.  My suggestion is to use ranbat poitns if you have a regular group, and location if you don't.  I also want to reiterate what I said before about either having points decay or reset so someone doesn't get to accumulate so much that they can never be passed.

As an example of a tournament system, I'm going to use a rough outline of the NFL.  First you start with a heavily modded round robin portion.  All of the teams are separated into 6 round robin groups.  While they play people not in their group, they are basically only competing against people in their group.  They play a bunch of games, and whoever has the highest win%(/wins for playing the same amount of games) in their group gets to go to a single elimination bracket.  There are also wildcards, which are basically runner-ups that get in.  The single elim part is seeded based on how well you do in the round robin part, basically ranbat points.  The higher ranked teams get byes while the wildcards need to play an extra game.  At the end of it all you have a winner, and then next tournament(/year) it resets.  The team that wins the super bowl doesn't get an advantage next season, it's a fresh start and new teams can enter on the same level as everyone else.

Finally, I want to say don't play favorites.  The (insert good nfl team here) doesn't get a bye in their path to the super bowl because you like them, they get the bye because they won more games during the season than everyone else.  No one gets an advantage at the start, winning/losing during the event determines if you get/don't get an advantage.  If you use a ranbat system, you get a good seed because you're doing good in the ranbat, likewise if you're doing bad you get a bad seed, it doesn't(shouldn't) matter if you're liked or not, how good you actually are(if you are then start winning instead of begging for a seed), it doesn't matter how good you did before the points were reset, it matters how good you do now.

And lets add a link to some good brackets.  Speaking of which having images with brackets would make things a lot easier to understand.

Offline LoliSauce

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2009, 11:52:38 PM »
Images for bracket explanations would be very helpful, especially to help explain the double elim losers bracket seeding.  I personally found that to be the most difficult to understand, having no prior experience.

I really appreciate the detailed feedback, and encourage others to chip in anything they might have a comment on.  I'll begin working on organizing and editing this info into the first post throughout the next week.  I'll sticky it once it's presentable.
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Offline mizuki

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 01:32:00 AM »
Images for bracket explanations would be very helpful, especially to help explain the double elim losers bracket seeding.  I personally found that to be the most difficult to understand, having no prior experience.

I really appreciate the detailed feedback, and encourage others to chip in anything they might have a comment on.  I'll begin working on organizing and editing this info into the first post throughout the next week.  I'll sticky it once it's presentable.

I wish you could have asked for this when I was at Evo haha, I could have explained it pretty easy in person. I'll attempt to make some kind of tutorial tomorrow.
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Offline Id_asz

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2009, 04:44:06 PM »
Sometimes if you're running a really large tournament (like over 64 people) you might want to run a Swiss Bracket (which is what EVO does).

Swiss Bracket:
This combines Round Robin and Double Elimination. Everyone is put into pools; each pool is its own Round Robin. When considering seeding, put the best seeds in different pools so that they won't have to play each other. The top two winners of the pools go into a Double Elim bracket. Depending on how many people you have, you may want the bracket to be 16 or 32 people large. If you want 16 people, you'll need 8 pools, and for 32 people you'll need 16 pools. When setting up your Double Elim bracket after the pools are set, for the very first round in the bracket, set the top two people from each pool next to each other. Then the 1st place winner of that pool goes on to the winner's side of the bracket while the 2nd place winner of the pool goes into the loser's side of the bracket. This way, the Round Robin pools ARE the first round of the Double Elim bracket. Everything else goes on as per normal for the Double Elim bracket.

Swiss Brackets can get a little hectic, so I recommend having someone who knows how to run a round robin in each pool record the data for their own pool. If a pool doesn't have someone familiar with Round Robins, teach somebody.


Another often confusing tournament condition are Teams. Teams can be 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 21v21 or any other variation that you feel like running.

General Teams Rules:
For most official Teams tournaments these basic rules apply. Each team can only have one of the same character. So you can't have two Ciel's in the same team. Because of this you also cannot switch characters mid-tournament, the character you choose is deadlocked. There is no consensus on whether or not you have to keep the same order throughout the tournament, but if you want that rule, be sure to state so before the tournament starts.

There are two main formats for Team tournaments:
Waseda Format (can be known by other names):
This is what they use for SBO 2v2s and are typically only done for 2v2s. However, it can be applicable towards more players. Waseda Format has a designated player fight another player. The winner is recorded and the other members of both teams then fight each other. If one team won both matches, then that team is declared the winner. If both teams one once and lost once, then the two winners fight each other. The winning team of that match is then the winner.
Diagram:
EX. 1:
Team A1 vs Team B1 = A1 wins
Team A2 vs Team B2 = A2 wins
Team A wins

EX. 2:
Team A1 vs Team B1 = B1 wins
Team A2 vs Team B2 = A2 wins
Team A2 vs Team B1 = B1 wins
Team B wins

The other format of team matches is the Pokemon Format.
Pokemon Format:
Each team has players ready to play, the first members of each team fight each other. The winner stays on the machine while the losing team brings in their next player. This format is more popular for 3v3s or more.

EX:
Team A1 vs Team B1 = B1 Wins
Team A2 vs Team B1 = B1 wins
Team A3 vs Team B1 = A3 wins
Team A3 vs Team B2 = B2 wins
Team B wins


One more thing I'd like to add to this section:

Terminology:
Often players and even event organizers get lost in the tournament terminology. Please feel free to add more if you wish, I'm just going to list a few and this list isn't complete.

Round: The smallest increment of a win. Usually arcade machines are set to 2 rounds per win, but they can go as high as 5/9 rounds.
Match: One match is one actual win on the machine. This is what you would need to win in casuals for your opponent to leave and the next person to come up. Most tournaments have 2/3 matches, and 3/5 matches for the finals.
Set: A set is determined by winning the required number of matches. Usually 1 Set Point means that the person won their part of the tournament until the next opponent. But in Double Elimination Brackets, there are times in Grand Finals where someone must win 2/3 Sets.
Game: This is the highest practical increment of winning in tournaments. When someone wins the required amount of Sets, they win the Game. The only real point higher would be a Trophy point, which would mean winning the whole tournament.

If you're familiar to Tennis rules, these should come naturally to you.

EX:
2/3 Rounds per Match
2/3 Matches per Set
1 Set per Game

or

2/3 Rounds per Match
3/5 Matches per Set
2/3 Sets per Game
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 12:37:22 AM »
1 round is what most games call a round.
1 game is when you win what you need to make the other player lose, usually 2 rounds, but 3 isn't uncommon.
1 set is when you win a certain amount of games, determined by the format.  Usually 2.
1 match is when you beat an opponent and advance in the bracket or get a win in a round robin.  Usually 1 set.  Grand Finals in double elim is 2 sets, with the player in winners starting ahead by 1.

The format that you describe is nothing like a swiss tournament, which is basically a glorified single elim.

Forcing teams to use different characters isn't something that most tournaments use.  Until recently it was unheard of, at least on the EC scene.  Also see what I said about not just copy/pasting rules and understanding why you have them.

Offline Id_asz

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 10:14:23 AM »
I've never seen a teams tournament where you could play the same character in the team. Certainly they exist, but SBO has been forcing different characters in teams for as long as I know of.

I disagree with you with the order of round, match, set, game, but it's not a matter of opinion, so me disagreeing isn't proof enough. I'll look into Tennis rules when I get the chance, I don't have time atm.

The format that I labeled "Swiss Bracket" is a viable format I've seen used in tournaments. Somebody told me it was called a "Swiss Bracket" and I didn't question the name. Sorry for the mix-up in semantics.

Maybe there is a big difference between how tournaments are run on the WC vs the EC? I've had everybody typically agreeing with me on the formats I've been using for tournaments, so I haven't had a problem with it. I was taught by someone else who ran tournaments, and just by playing in tournaments within the community.

I swear, no copy/pasting rules. It took me over half an hour to write that post =P.
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 11:43:57 PM »
That format is fine.  It's actually one I would include if I made a more detailed guide.

The naming for round/game etc. isn't a tennis reference.  Round and game are taken directly from what the games use and match is taken from the tournament format.  Set is the only non-official name in this regard, but what else are you going to call a set of games?

SBO had the no same character rule for I'm guessing publicity, and people copied it for some reason.  From a competitive standpoint the rule makes no sense.

Offline Id_asz

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2009, 10:07:43 AM »
SBO had the no same character rule for I'm guessing publicity, and people copied it for some reason.  From a competitive standpoint the rule makes no sense.

The reason I think people do the whole no same character rule is to prevent everybody from using the top teir character. Or to allow for more balanced match-ups. 3v3 of Nero/Nero/Nero vs Ciel/Ciel/Ciel would be interesting. But when you have a more balanced team you can strategically choose who you want next. When I run them the first player is chosen double blindly and the other players get to choose who goes up next time.

But for games with multiple characters per player (like MvC2 or KoF), I've never seen the no same character rule implemented for teams.
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Offline LoliSauce

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 11:47:46 AM »
The format that you describe is nothing like a swiss tournament, which is basically a glorified single elim.
If a swiss tournament is something different, is it relevant enough to get a full description?  If so, it'd be nice to hear about it.

Also what should I call the "Swiss Bracket" that Id_asz mentioned?

(I'll try to update the first post today)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 12:00:43 PM by LoliSauce »
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Tourney Reference Guide (help needed)
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 10:33:48 PM »
A swiss tournament only fits games where you can run every match at the same time(IE unlimited setups) and you don't have enough time to even do single elimination.  It's for games with cheap setups that take a long time to play, like chess.  As far as fighting games are concerned it's not even worth a footnote.

I have no idea if there is a name for that style of tournament.  It's basically a round robin/double elim hybrid, not exactly a completely new format.

The reason I think people do the whole no same character rule is to prevent everybody from using the top teir character. Or to allow for more balanced match-ups. 3v3 of Nero/Nero/Nero vs Ciel/Ciel/Ciel would be interesting. But when you have a more balanced team you can strategically choose who you want next.

Wanting or not wanting to see double/tripple/whatever character teams is personal taste which has no place in rules.  For tiers, instead of bestchar/bestchar/bestchar you get bestchar/secondchar/thirdchar, which is still all top tier.  If the top char is really a problem then the whole match comes down to the two players playing said character, and if this is actually the case then this character would be banned regardless.  It would be like forcing players to swich chars when they lose a game in singles.  Assuming 3/5 matches and teams of 3, one player using Nero and one using Ciel gives the same match as an all Nero team against an all Ciel team character usage wise.  Before someone says it, it also doesn't encourage character variety.  There will be 5 of char X in imaginary tournament, all it might change is what teams they are on.  It's also not broken; as you said teams with the same characters are inferior to teams with different characters which rules out this reason.

A little off topic, but you can still send in specific players to counter even if you have a team of three Neros.  For example one Nero might have more experience against Tohno so you send that one in when the other team's Tohno player is up while you save the other Nero player to go against Akiha.  Not as good as having a player with the appropriate counter-characters but it's still there on a smaller scale.

Lastly, a couple things to add.  Forcing players to stick with one character through a whole tournament is a rule that is sometimes used and sometimes not.  People seem to assume that you need to have the rule in teams but that is far from the case.  In that vein, never go with something just because it's the popular choice.  This is another way to look at "Don't use stupid rules." and "Know why you have all of your rules.".