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Author Topic: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread  (Read 5504 times)

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Offline COD3player

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[MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« on: February 05, 2012, 04:45:17 PM »
Alright Half Ciel users, this thread is for you. Discuss 1.07 H-Ciel here.

Is she still just a lesser C-Ciel? Or is she good enough on her own?
<--- "the irony of being one of the least anime people in the anime FGC" - bell

Offline Synthesis

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2012, 06:10:04 PM »
She's a lesser C. ::themoreyouknow::
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Offline Numakie

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 07:47:15 AM »
http://hurrycurryoftokyo.com/

Any vids of her floating around?
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Offline COD3player

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 03:17:14 PM »
You can find them in the video thread.
<--- "the irony of being one of the least anime people in the anime FGC" - bell

Offline Cristu

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 12:54:14 PM »
Jobairo and Utamaru are the same player?
A little bit of console ain't too bad.

Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread *ATTN: Pat*
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 11:30:01 AM »
Hey Pat. Here is the perfect thread for you to fix and make your own.

I've identified the relevant misconceptions below:

She's a lesser C. ::themoreyouknow::

I've had players express interest in her multiple times, only to drop her for lack of info or the above comment.

Do it Pat. Just do it.

Offline Sashi

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 01:58:33 PM »
I don't know why, but people get hit by 236[A] a lot. I think her 5A is FMoon status, too.
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Offline COD3player

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 08:04:31 PM »
Lots of people get hit by 236[A] a lot? Not sure why that would be the case. It's just C's 236B > 214X, but only requires one input. 5A doesn't quite have the same properties as F-Moon but it still hits crouchers which was needed.

I've actually played this character a fair bit myself, and honestly I don't think anyone should be deterred from playing her, especially based on what one person says. I'll give my thoughts on the character below, which will inevitably be a H vs C comparison followed by a conclusion. C and H share a fair number of moves but they also have a number of differences. Once again, these are just my observations of the character and the decision is ultimately up to the player.

H-Ciel Benefits

+ 6AA string is probably the lifeblood of H-Ciel's pressure. 6AA moves her forward, has a large cancel window, and allows for all sorts of different blockstrings depending on how you vary the rhythm. This makes her very potent up-close and gives her a slight edge in this regard. This makes hit confirming rather easy as well.

+ j.214A is like F-Ciel's. It completely stops her air momentum and retains her double jump if it hasn't been used yet. This allows for added pressure options after 2BB which Ciel had back in MBAC. C does not have this.

+ j.A has more range than C's j.A. Since she sticks out her entire arm instead of just using her elbow, as such it has twice the range of C's.

+ H's 63214X series has more utility than C's 236A moveset. It's pretty clear that C's 236A series has practically no use in actual matches and it's one of those moves that C has that you should just never do. H's 63214X moves on the other hand all move her forward in some way which further solidifies her specialty as a more close-ranged fighter. 63214A is a ranged overhead that hits low to the ground which allows you to combo after it, though the link timing is rather strict. 63214C covers more vertical space and while it isn't overhead, allows you to keep cornered opponents in check.

+ Good shield bunker. (H-Moon specific mechanic)

C-Ciel Benefits

+ Backdash Knives. This move is exclusive to C. While many may not think they're all that useful, being able to attack while backdashing is pretty significant and due to the angles at which they are thrown, they can cover a significant amount of screen space. This makes them rather effective especially against F-Moon characters who do not have the ability to air dodge.

+ 5CC. This move is also exclusive to C. With the addition of 214[A], C has the ability to combo at very awkward ranges and always score a combo that leads into a full air string or left-right mixup off a hard knockdown. Comboing against crouching opponents is easier because of how 5CC works against crouchers. Against cornered opponents, 5CC also works as an effective frame trap because the 2nd hit can be delayed and it's also cancelable into other specials even on whiff.

+ Improved Blade Sinkers. C has the ability to do Blade Sinkers in the air which allow her to perform corner carry rather well. The EX version is also where C's high damage combos come from. A single TK EX Blade Sinker can easily add an extra 1000 damage to a corner combo and if you have the meter to spare, a 2nd one will add close to another 1000 damage. As such, C's combo damage in the corner is quite high when there's meter to spend. With the improved EX Blade Sinker, this also allows C to score good damage off a simple projectile from near full screen. Without meter though, Cs and H's combos do roughly the same damage.

+ j.B is a crossup unlike H's which hits in front of her most of the time. Not much else can really be said about this move as she has had this move in every game, and a true crossup is always nice to have.

+ Retains 200% meter after leaving MAX mode. (C-Moon specific mechanic) There's a lot of implications involved here. C and H both have EX Halo (236C) which is one of the best punishers in the entire game. This is the move that shuts down characters who are so heavily dependent on zoning and/or keepaway. As such, those characters have to be much more cautious in how they use their moves and quite possibly forces them to play on your terms. As long as you have that 100% meter, they run the risk of getting punished, and C has plenty of ways to make sure there's always at least 100% meter to spare.

Conclusion
The question I asked in the OP was simply a joke that came to mind when the game was first released on PC, and the first response is more than likely one as well.

Is it actually true that H-Ciel is a lesser version of C-Ciel? And is she good enough to hold her own?
My personal response to both of those questions would be yes (only to an extent) and yes respectively.

And here's why:

I say that H-Ciel is a lesser version of C-Ciel in the sense that although they share a lot of the same moves, H is ultimately hindered by the mechanics behind its moon. What makes C-Ciel such a threat to a fair portion of the cast, is the fact that EX Halo can be used as long as she has as little as 100% meter. C-Moon has the ability to stock up to 300% meter (on paper) which then allows them to enter MAX mode where supers are free as long as there's meter in the bar. If that meter isn't used for a Circuit Spark, C-Moon will go back to 200%, and 100% if an arc drive is used. Looking at those numbers, this means that C-Ciel will have 1-2 EX Halos to use should the situation arise where an EX Halo would be most appropriate upon leaving MAX mode. H-Ciel on the other hand does not have the ability to sit on meter as long as she would like, or at least not as easily. In H-Moon, after leaving MAX mode, the character will ALWAYS revert back to having 0% meter. One of the worst case scenarios, H-Ciel starts a round with 200% meter and is forced to lose it early next round regardless of what happens. What makes C-Ciel so effective in certain matchups, doesn't always apply to H-Ciel due to the possibility that H may not have that EX Halo saved up due to how meter works in H-Moon.

Here is why I believe that in spite of the above, H-Ciel is good enough to hold her own:
H-Ciel still has EX Halo, so while she may not necessarily be able to use it as liberally as C-Ciel, the fact that she still has it will either keep the opponent on tilt, or hit them when they least expect it. Because of moves like 6AA and her 63214X movelist, she actually has a specialization unlike C's jack-of-all-trades design. The lack of EX Halo isn't too big of a loss against characters who are more close-range oriented and don't rely on zoning and keepaway. Characters who are close-range oriented do not have as many obvious openings to use an EX Halo as a zoning character would. Therefore, H-Ciel doesn't suffer from having an EX Halo that can't be used as liberally. H-Ciel has the tools to play the neutral game and keep the opponent pinned under the right circumstances which make her a more competitive character than before.

tl;dr, what it boils down to, is that both characters have to be played differently and a lot of that is largely due in part to their moon's meter management. I personally prefer C since it is much more versatile and seemingly more beneficial to be able to stock meter for the long run as opposed to H which could unintentionally reach MAX mode when life regeneration or bursting isn't needed. Ultimately it is up to the player to decide which moon is more effective for them and what they would prefer to have based on what they're given.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:57:11 PM by thee3rd »
<--- "the irony of being one of the least anime people in the anime FGC" - bell

Offline Sashi

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2013, 10:28:15 PM »
I think it's just 'cause no one knows that Ciel has such a move. "Hey, she's doing that weird jump thing. She's charging? Can I mash her ou-Oh, I got hit."

For the 5A thing, I just meant that it was both faster and more positive on block (by a whole frame!) than C's 5A.
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 02:50:27 AM »
I don't think anyone should be deterred from playing her, especially based on what one person says.

Only one person may have said it in this thread, but I did not say what I did because of one person. This is a common belief.

+ 6AA string is probably the lifeblood of H-Ciel's pressure. 6AA moves her forward, has a large cancel window, and allows for all sorts of different blockstrings depending on how you vary the rhythm. This makes her very potent up-close and gives her a slight edge in this regard.

I think this gives her more than a slight edge. I think it makes her pressure much better. At least it makes it different for how C's works, which was the point of my post. C relies more on the threat of specials to make her pressure effective, while H has abuses 5A resets.

I think that H's air game is way better, and different than C's. She has a move that covers any angle that one could ask for. Her j.B (H's) is still gdlk, but in a different way. Its disjointed in front by a lot, and beats out a ton of stuff. Sure, it may not hit behind her, but this just means that H-Ciel has to actually be good at spacing.

I personally think that her combo game is way more interesting than C's. While not usable in every situation, she has combos that will build her a fuck ton of meter.

In short, she has the tools to win neutral, and take an opponent to the corner. She has the tools to stay in your face once she has you there. She still has damage, though I will agree that C's damage is consistently higher in most situations.

Also, Pat...
You missed your chance... :-\

Offline Tonberry

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 10:17:40 AM »
I still feel like C is overall a better H. :laffo:
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Offline TheMaster_Rahl

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2013, 01:10:14 PM »
Pfhortunately, these are not the opinions we require, my dear.

Offline COD3player

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Re: [MBAACC] H-urry Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2013, 08:53:03 PM »
I forgot to add, that C (like F) has the improved 623C which would fall under the Blade Sinker category which I updated. This allows C to score very good damage from near full screen after winning a projectile war with a full set of thrown knives. H unfortunately got stuck with the near useless 623C from MBAC.

I would say that H's air game being significantly better than C's is still debatable. H's j.A definitely is better than C's due to the extended range, but I believe C's j.B is the move that allows C to cover almost every angle. H's j.B hits directly in front of her and does have some disjoint properties. C's j.B hits in front of her as well, and while it doesn't have as much range as H's, it has enough to be competitive. On top of that, it hits directly below her AND behind her. This means that while C-Ciel is in the air, she can effectively attack the blind spots that j.A and j.C will not cover. It also means that C's air normals aren't limited to attacking whatever is in front of her. For many years, C-Ciel's j.B has usually been her opponents' most despised air normal and rightfully so. Nothing is more aggravating than getting clipped by j.B when you're clearly behind her or when you're falling/approaching at an awkward angle.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 08:54:57 PM by thee3rd »
<--- "the irony of being one of the least anime people in the anime FGC" - bell