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Author Topic: [MBAACC] F-Ciel Thread (Get that "furry" garbage outta here!)  (Read 44860 times)

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Offline AARP|ZTB

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2010, 06:39:55 PM »
On another note:

Some people seem to believe that F-ciel is "the ciel without 7th heaven". This notion would imply that F-ciel is to be played in the same manner as her crescent form, minus the option to use 7th, when this is far from the case. F-ciel mechanics and design completely contrast that of the Crescent and Half forms. If anything, the C & H forms have more similarities in concepts like spacing, pressure, strings, strategy and objectives than F has to either of the two. If we examine some of the core aspects of the C & F forms we can see just how different the two styles are as well as strengths and weaknesses posed in matchups:

General Spacing @ mid to long range
C (214B>4A)
IMO crescent does appear to have the upperhand in the distanced/zoning game. This knife set is fast and covers a very awkward angle. It keeps opponents pinned down and can be staggered into the final set (which leads to ex followups). Proper use makes this versatile zoning tool hard to get around.
F (214B>214C)
This knife set is probably strongest at 3/4 stage range and will cover a lot of area above ciel. Completing the set will keep a ground approach in check. IMO it's a bit easier to misplace and misuse this set. However, due to the decreased recovery on 214C in CC, I feel players may get more leeway and opportunities to play a bit more reckless with zoning.
F (214A)
A decent ground projectile in Ver.A/console, perhaps gdlk even in CC due to increased speed. I like F's 214A over C's any day: forced down, launches, easily confirmable into EX sycher for added dmg at long ranges. In strings though C's 214[A], although a bit gimmicky, may be a bit stronger.

C (dash 2a, double jumps, IADs)
From the looks of it, C doesn't seem to have much of a mid-ranged gameplan. It seems to be nothing but dashing within 2a range to start pressure or use of double jumps and IADs to close in. IMO C's seems to only be able to transition from fullscreen zoning to zero-range pressure (and vice versa) without any in-between. Because of this if feel that C is lacking in a bit more in neutral and has to take more risks when attempting to approach.
F (dash 2B, neutral 2B, 236B)
I've yet to see any F user throw 2B fishing into their neutral game (even the all-mighty TSA!). 2B has good speed for it's attack range, hits low, can be canceled from and has very little recovery to punish on reaction to whiff or with IADs. From my experience, 2B seems effective in thwarting off aggressive ground approach, i.e. mindless dashing, and will force players to seek an alternative offense which usu. ends up being IADs, jumping (both which get shut down by F's strong anti-airs) or falling back to zoning if the option is available. F-ciel can also take initiative instead, and dash into the attack range to tag any sudden movements while being able to score a down by coupling low flicker (or high vs tall crouching characters). The other mid-ranged tool would be the High Flicker. This attack is a mere 9f in start up and covers a range that rivals Nero's 4C. It's also air unblockable, +1 on guard, ex cancelable for added shenanigans and jump cancelable on hit making combo follow ups relatively easy when fishing for a hit on grounded opponents. With these tools, F is able to cover a range unknown to C style.


General Spacing w/ Air-to-air and anti-air
C (JB, JC, 2B, 4C, 4B)
I'll just get this out the way now: 4C is ass for an anti-air, regardless of moon style but is semi-effective when anticipating jumps. JB and JC (usu. j7 for both) appear to be extremely effective in air battles (I've consistently seen good results w/ this in matches). 2B IMO is a bit similar to 4C in that it's used to catch jump attempts (usu. "set up" with dash>2b or something). It also seems effective for nailing players descending from air techs. As for 4B...no one, Jp or US, is using this for AA even though it has fast start up with clash lol.
F (JB, JC, 5C, 4B, 4C)
I don't know why but...JB for air-to-air gets results. It's fast and the hitbox is goofy (I guess). Spacing is to be heavily considered and you have to be a bit more precise with where you strike with the attack. In other situations, JC seems to cover angles that JB can't and it stays out FOREVER. IMO both C and F moon seem about even in their air-to-air abilities. As for anti-airs, F-ciel dagawd. You pretty much have to think twice about how to approach if your character lacks a multi-hit jump in. Otherwise you just get blown up with whatever followup may come after that backhand to the face. I honestly don't think many characters, let alone C-ciel, can even fuck with the practicality of this move. In addition to being an anti-air, 5C can blowup activations, multi-hit attacks, dps and do your laundry all in one.


General spacing Inside Game (Rebeats vs +Frames)
C
This segment is actually hard for me to comment on being as I don't truly understand the theory behind crescent's rebeat strings and inside pressure. For the most part, [ 2B, 3B, 5C, 5C>5C, rebeat 5a/2a hit/whiff ] seem to be the primary tools for holding forward momentum and feinting openings in C-ciel's attack strings. At the cost of max damage, C-ciel seems to be able hold players on defense a bit longer than F-ciel may be capable of.
F
This form is no slouch in that department, however. F-ciel is is capable of incorporating "fake" rebeat strings by use of whiffed A attacks and whoring plus frames on a few other normals. F is also has extremely late cancel points on her normals, allowing her to stagger at various degrees and letting her pace an attack string in accordance to the defender's level of "respect". Switching from slow, ascending strings to exploiting +f normals to advance forward or continue a new string (or both!) is enough to keep the opponent second guessing. I'll admit though that it takes a bit longer to figure out a player by these methods than mashing out rebeat strings until landing a hit. However, the upside to landing a random hits as F-ciel more often than not brings about a bigger payout with full dmg in return.
C (4B, BE4B)
...fucking useless. Anyone with experience in the match will be able to guard this every single time on reaction.
F (4B, BE4B)
...bullshit. Extremely strong meta-game going on 4B in attack strings. Semi-charged to flicker low for players who guard high on reaction to leg lift and BE4B to 214A for those who are just too damn slow to react. F-ciel really brings out this move's full potential and is definitely one of her stronger options.


General spacing 7th Heaven vs NO 7th Heaven
C
What can I say...7th is like the most versatile EX move in the damn game. Who can fuck with a FULL SCREEN, FULLY INVINCIBLE (after flash), FORCED DOWN attack at only the cost of 100% circuit. Sure this move is can easily be baited as a wakeup but that doesn't stop people from using this as a reversal in strings - strings which MOST characters have to respect or use other mediocre reversal options - or against full screen or ranged attacks or activations on reaction. Honestly, not many characters in MB have shit on 7th even with the many nerfs added to it.
F
That being said - stayfree, F-ciel? No, not really. The F form isn't exactly confined to a wheelchair with terminal cancer. F-ciel can still be and is (IMO) a very playable, competent and rewarding character to use in even the highest levels of competition. It's just that some of the players picking up or using F-ciel need to keep in mind that F-ciel =/= C-ciel in far too many areas. Instead of trying to use the character as "that Ciel without the Hiero", players need to go in understanding that these styles are not two different sides to the same coin but instead two completely different coins altogether.


On a personal note:
If ranking were to be considered, I'd say that C-ciel is only slightly better than F-ciel due to 7th Heaven and the 214B>214A knife set and THAT'S IT. I don't believe C is better by a large margin and in fact, I believe F to have some better matchups than C due to variety in neutral game and overall spacing. Because of this, I strayed from C-ciel as I don't like throwing myself at an opponent and I guess terribly when it comes to extensive zoning. F-ciel complements my playstyle as a whole and allows me to transition through many play styles in a match when necessary.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 07:01:37 PM by ZARtacus! »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2010, 08:39:29 AM »
Posted your goodness on the front page sir~
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2010, 11:14:17 AM »
Appreciate it sir~

Have some other stuff in the works but I'm currently looking into "better" editing software to soup up future presentations...I may get lazy though, who knows lol.
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2010, 09:48:52 PM »
...The beginning of the end of our suffering

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRpOu3Nmjo
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

Offline Zaelar

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2010, 01:15:54 AM »
You could have just said that C and F are different characters like almost every character is when switching between those moons.  You could have said it the way I would have said it and said well since H-tohno, vsion, kohaku don't have seventh heaven then they must be worse too, and when they* say "but they have stupid block strings and comboable grabs", you sigh and look at them funny for a moment, and when they say what, you yell "I'MA CHARGIN MAH 5C!".

*several idiots would just quote the Japanese tier list that can't possibly be wrong and say it applies to the ps2 version, but for the sake of my argument lets assume you're not talking to someone that dumb.

Also I'm not sure if it's me not playing in a while or youtube quality, but the A flickers looked like they had less recovery in that video.

"As for 4B...no one, Jp or US, is using this for AA even though it has fast start up with clash lol."

I'm messing around with it but it feels inconsistent.  It loses to most good jump-ins like anything with any shiki knife, kohaku's broom, and most other things that people tend to jump in with.  Basically I spam it on people that don't use good jumpins for lols but then don't use it against good players because it hurts.  I've been meaning to do more training mode with this but I'm lazy and I like 8b and 22b as AA.

Offline DivineArc

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2010, 02:27:20 PM »
Zar is godlike, End of story
woof: like all the stuff i hear from them im like 'thats everything i had t o deal with back when i played'

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2010, 02:52:13 PM »
Yo that vid was gdlk.
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2010, 06:35:46 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9R5heDRxHM

Leaving this here.  Knock yourselves out.
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2010, 04:00:09 AM »
That F-akiha looked like a good player that never played her before.

Offline Relunx

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2010, 02:45:55 AM »
Nice combo, but instead of j214c he could also use j236b or land 5b --> continue combo to save meter.

Other question:
Does Ciel has any bad matchup? She is a jack of all trades so I wonder if there's any bad matchups for her.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2010, 09:52:23 PM »
Dunno if this has been discussed before, but is there any particular reason why C-Ciel's 5CC totally ignores Nero's 214b (automatic activation snakes)?  ??? They just pass through her, although she appears to be on the ground. :mystery:
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2010, 10:15:26 PM »
Wrong thread, buddy. May want to refer to the frame viewer to find your answer though. Check to see if the hitbox by her legs are present or not (sorta like how her 4B has no hitbox at the feet).
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2011, 11:33:00 AM »
Found out a nerf about Ciel:
her j214b,4b,4b keys on block is now only +2% magic circuit gain (unlike in mbaa where +20-23% was)

Relunx
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 11:35:41 AM by Relunx »

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2011, 12:27:03 PM »
(sigh)
not a "ciel nerf". New CC system mechanic: In addition to reducing guard stun (already present in prior renditions of AA), Ex Guarding now "rewards" defender by inhibiting attacker's meter gain. Also, you fail at math.
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2011, 07:25:38 PM »
(sigh)
not a "ciel nerf". New CC system mechanic: In addition to reducing guard stun (already present in prior renditions of AA), Ex Guarding now "rewards" defender by inhibiting attacker's meter gain. Also, you fail at math.

I knew about this change but wow, ONE ex guard makes future hits from the attacker gain less meter.  I always thought it was just less meter for the individual hit that was ex guarded from the way it was worded.
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2011, 01:35:12 AM »
Probably going to pick this character up to be my main for CC.
95% sure
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2011, 02:20:47 AM »
Probably going to pick this character up to be my main for CC.
95% sure

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2011, 11:34:25 PM »
It's been a while but - wow - a pretty solid jp F-ciel 友蔵(シエル)
Anyone w/ player name romanization, a post would be appreciated.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14244170

00:10
Shows off the 2b>be5c loop (2 reps) as posted on the jp ciel wiki (wiki says 3reps are possible, doesnt look easy though).

9:28
2B>236B>IAFUCKINGD. Thank you, Japan.

This guy was pretty decent overall: solid spacing, occasional 2b fishing, confirms, good use of stand-alone flickers, and some so-so strings.Reactions to jumpins were good but...he kept trying to air-to-air w/ jA's and jC's instead of just laming it out w/ dash under/5c/22b/j7b (this was my only real gripe about this particular player). Still, happy to see a jp f-ciel not get exposed so freely this time around.  :prinny:


just for good measure
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14243811
first match is THE BEST MATCH IN MBAA HISTORY, EVERRRR (...not really lol)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 11:37:06 PM by UMEZARO-3D »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2011, 11:57:51 PM »
It's been a while but - wow - a pretty solid jp F-ciel 友蔵(シエル)
Anyone w/ player name romanization, a post would be appreciated.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14244170

Tomozou, romanization courtesy of
http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E5%8F%8B%E8%94%B5&eng=&dict=edict
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2011, 11:53:01 AM »
How I see it, Ciel was my main in Act Cadenza, so I have a lot invested in the Crescent iteration of that character.

I screwed around with Full moon a bit, and saw her potential, but it was just too different than what I was used to. I play a bunch of other characters in AA, and those characters I picked a moon-style objectively, just picking what I thought was the best version for me, independent of what I might have played with them in AC. But because I was so familiar with Ciel in AC, I just couldn't make the switch to a character so radically different. If someone else didn't play Ciel in AC, but wanted to switch to Ciel in AA, they might choose F-Ciel, because they have no time invested in C-Ciel. I think that's where most of the F-Ciel players come from.

I really should consider picking up F-Ciel, though, because in arcade if you win you're allowed to swap out your moon style as a winner's counter-pick. Since C and F are so different, there's probably some good counter-pick setups there.
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2011, 03:11:24 PM »
lol "topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days."

sigh.

anyway, i'm just about done filtering through (crappy) jp vids for f-ciel matches which will likely never come. BUT if anyone happens to stumble onto some (quality) f-ciel footage from CC 1.07, would appreciate a heads up in the thread. I'm sure the other THREE F-CIEL USERS IN THE WORLD would appreciate it as well.

+Heat for anyone cool enough to not fag it up w/ troll vids.

*waits for troll vids*  ::)
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2011, 05:36:49 PM »
At least it's not worse than our thread. Har, har.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2011, 06:32:55 PM »
You know Japan's not knowledgeable enough to play this character but on actual topic, I'll let you know if I see anything now that you've asked.
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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2011, 08:47:29 AM »
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16074643

@04:00

# of low/instant air dashes at neutral: 9

# of 2B's at neutral                             : 0

Jp really needs to form some sort of committee for F-ciel. Shit's embarrassing to watch.

Edit:
And now that dmg output is significantly lower, an even stronger neutral game is a must. Oh well.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 08:52:01 AM by Sakura Sena »
zar are you even aware that your attitude is what drove people off in the first place. i think zar's attitude is worse than all of that. cause neither of you guys mean anything. but zar can poison shit around him. zar's the one that gets personal online and does realtalk that's out of line.

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Re: [MBAACC] Full Moon Ciel Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2011, 10:34:05 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJMtipVE57k&feature=feedu <--- F-Ciel @ 11:29

1st worthy note: One of the better F-Ciel users who knows what buttons to push when he's in close range. Also one of the few F-Ciel Ciel players I've seen who'll opt back to walking backwards to bait a poke and try and punish.

2nd worthy note: 623B OTG relaunches. I'm going to assume that this is her OTG relaunch across all 3 styles. I actually like that since it means she doesn't have to use meter to get optimal OTG damage now.

3rd worthy note: Like Zar said earlier, her damage took a HUGE hit. Optimal (for now) double flicker and she barely breaks 4K? I know Arc's defense is far from terribly bad, but really?  :emo:

Personal notes: Easily one of the better F-Ciel players I've seen since in a *long* while. I also liked the use of falling J.214C post airthrow, which it looks like you'll have to resort to more than ever against characters with faster wakeup speeds if you decide to keep the opponent in the corner.

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