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Author Topic: Looking for a bit of help...  (Read 8219 times)

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Offline Ambix

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Looking for a bit of help...
« on: May 03, 2009, 03:42:25 PM »
I couldn't find a better forum to post this in so my apologies if this should be somewhere else.

I started playing melty blood about 4 weeks ago just as something new to do. The only fighting game i've played competitvely up untill this point is smash brothers melee which i've been playing for about 5 years.....I've got a fairly solid peach.

Long story short: I haven't a bleeding idea what i'm doing and i'd like a shove in the right direction. It looks pretty fun.....it sure beats the hell out of brawl which is about as deep as the old power rangers fighting game.

I tried giving the game mechanics sticky a read and most of it is gibberish to me....firstly because it uses numbers in place of actual commands....

Quote
Just so people know, Instant Air Dashes must be inputted with 6,9,6 (F,UF,F) instead of simply 9,6 (UF, F) like in Guilty Gear. Should save V.Akiha players a lot of trouble.

....If the (F,UF,F) wasn't there i'd have no clue what commands to input.....and even still I tried IADing and i have no idea if im even doing it right.....or what purpose it serves other then that it's probably faster?



I also can't find a list of general or character specific moves that isn't gibberish.....the gamefaqs list for instance just gives you a name and a couple of letters. Even if I could find out the commands for each move it doesn't tell you what the move actually does (i.e. range, invincibility frames, when to use it, what it can lead in to combo-wise etc.)



So yeah....can someone suggest to me some noobie friendly reading material?

.....or better yet can someone be mah friend and teach me how to play?

I learned melee by getting my ass kicked every day for about 4 months by the locals....seems like a pretty solid way to learn.

Much obliged in advance.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 03:47:57 PM by Ambix »

Offline Alfonse

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 04:51:15 PM »
Which character do you main? You could visit their sub-section of this forum and look for the tutorial/introduction thread.

http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?board=30.0
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Offline Benny1

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2009, 05:14:05 PM »
First off, number notation is the standard around here.  Look at your numpad.  If you assume 5 is neutral, then 8 would be like up, 2 is down, 4 is left, 6 is right, and so on.  This is just an alternative to something like QCF.

So it's like QCF = 236, QCB = 214, DP = 623.

Instant air dashing is a technique that some characters use.  The idea is exactly what it sounds like: Airdashing as low as possible.  With some characters (Akiha Vermillion comes to mind), you want to use lots of instant airdashes for overheads (attacks you need to block standing rather than crouching).

If you want a noob friendly guide, Psylocke's Akiha guide comes to mind in particular.  This one will go over all of her moves and everything.  Same with Wallachia.  Other than that, other than little topics here and there, many characters don't have organized guides which tell you what every move does and when it's useful, so you need to experiment a bit on your own.  No character has absolutely no written up information though.

Also, in general Shiki Tohno is considered a good, simple starting character, with easy, easy combos.  You might want to start with him.  The basic combo for him is 2ABC 5C j.BC dj.BC airthrow (airthrow is executed by 6Q, Q being whatever you bind quick action to, j by default if you use keyboard.)
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Offline Ambix

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2009, 06:17:47 PM »
I'd like to main kohaku (When i first started playing I loved how the 2C hit from a mile away) but it seems like everyone says you're gimping yourself by not using the twins together.



Instant air dashing is a technique that some characters use.  The idea is exactly what it sounds like: Airdashing as low as possible.  With some characters (Akiha Vermillion comes to mind), you want to use lots of instant airdashes for overheads (attacks you need to block standing rather than crouching).


Are overheads the only way to approach people who turtle with crouch blocking?

Can you grab crouching people for instance?

Quote
(airthrow is executed by 6Q, Q being whatever you bind quick action to, j by default if you use keyboard.)

Is there a way to bind your keys if you use a keyboard?

The menu only lets me configure for a controller.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 06:20:39 PM by Ambix »

Offline Alfonse

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2009, 06:31:05 PM »
Quote
Are overheads the only way to approach people who turtle with crouch blocking?

Can you grab crouching people for instance?


Throw them (you can throw crouched people), or stagger your blockstrings (through small windows of delay) to bait them to retaliating.
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Offline Ambix

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 06:42:38 PM »

...or stagger your blockstrings (through small windows of delay) to bait them to retaliating.

what exactly is a string and how does one stagger it?

Offline Alfonse

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 08:02:00 PM »

...or stagger your blockstrings (through small windows of delay) to bait them to retaliating.

what exactly is a string and how does one stagger it?

I asked these questions before, so here are the relevant forum threads. Sorry, I'm not good at explanations.  :psyduck:

http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=754.0
http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=865.0
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Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2009, 08:53:28 PM »
Quote
I'd like to main kohaku (When i first started playing I loved how the 2C hit from a mile away) but it seems like everyone says you're gimping yourself by not using the twins together.

Use them together with a Kohaku lead or else you have limited yourself kind of badly. She gains quite a few important things from the Hisui assist. A rather nice overhead for example. She also gets a great way to continue pressure after pushing herself a ways a way.

Quote
what exactly is a string and how does one stagger it?

Blockstrings are exactly what they sound like. Basically you string attacks together to keep your opponent on block. If you're like many players you'll probably start just running your BnB against their block. Eventually though you'll learn to improvise and create attack strings you can score a decent knockdown or good damage off of on the fly*, a very important skill. A stagger is basically an artificial frametrap. You put a small gap in your blockstring to bait the opponent into attacking. This also a way to categorize the types of blockstrings you're running. Loose blockstrings are ones where staggers are longer and tight blockstrings refer to ones with smaller gaps.

Blockstrings are also important because proficiency with them allows for throw setups.

*Assuming you get a hit.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 08:55:42 PM by Gauthic Von B. Schönen »
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Offline c-nero 5[c]

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 09:04:02 AM »
there are plenty of solo kohaku players and solo kohaku was buffed in AA, i see no reason for not going solo if you prefer it as a player.
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Offline LordPangTong

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 09:18:12 AM »
If you like solo Kohaku, play solo Kohaku. Personally, I like her over Maids Kohaku-lead. Its not like you can't win with her. Maids Kohaku just has better lockdown and two more arc drives. Solo Kohaku has a good command throw and 214a. Hell, if we were all afraid of gimping ourselves, everyone would have to play Ciel/Warc/Akiha...
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Offline Ambix

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 09:30:40 AM »
If you like solo Kohaku, play solo Kohaku. Personally, I like her over Maids Kohaku-lead. Its not like you can't win with her. Maids Kohaku just has better lockdown and two more arc drives. Solo Kohaku has a good command throw and 214a. Hell, if we were all afraid of gimping ourselves, everyone would have to play Ciel/Warc/Akiha...


Aye but I come from a game where the teir list isn't law.

I've seen people abroad and in my own smash brothers melee crew win regional tournaments with bottom teirs like roy, pichu, and mewtwo. A friend of mine named iori actually mains mewtwo.

....whereas in brawl and other traditional 2-D fighters (or so i've heard) people who main low teirs or even PICK them in tournaments are an anomaly. I've heard horror stories about the marvel games and their teir lists.

I just don't want to pick the cute maid as my main and then find out everyone can infinate combo her, there is no damage scaling against her, and if you pick her you automatically lose....forever.....and then your PS2/computer exploads.


EDIT: blarg its really hard to do ANYTHING technical with the basic keyboard control setup....is there any way to edit or bind your keys?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 09:36:50 AM by Ambix »

Offline Ultima66

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 10:56:38 AM »
If you like solo Kohaku, play solo Kohaku. Personally, I like her over Maids Kohaku-lead. Its not like you can't win with her. Maids Kohaku just has better lockdown and two more arc drives. Solo Kohaku has a good command throw and 214a. Hell, if we were all afraid of gimping ourselves, everyone would have to play Ciel/Warc/Akiha...


Aye but I come from a game where the teir list isn't law.

I've seen people abroad and in my own smash brothers melee crew win regional tournaments with bottom teirs like roy, pichu, and mewtwo. A friend of mine named iori actually mains mewtwo.

....whereas in brawl and other traditional 2-D fighters (or so i've heard) people who main low teirs or even PICK them in tournaments are an anomaly. I've heard horror stories about the marvel games and their teir lists.

I just don't want to pick the cute maid as my main and then find out everyone can infinate combo her, there is no damage scaling against her, and if you pick her you automatically lose....forever.....and then your PS2/computer exploads.


EDIT: blarg its really hard to do ANYTHING technical with the basic keyboard control setup....is there any way to edit or bind your keys?
Quick Action is the J key by default. Keyboard defaults are NM,. as ABCD and J as Q. There is a remapper for ReAct that works on MBAC too, but I don't have the link with me. A quick search should bring it up.

Also Melee is WAY more imbalanced than this game. I would argue Neco Arc vs any top tier character in this game is a far far better matchup than Pichu vs Fox. And Neco Arc is so bad it doesn't even get put on tier lists, or goes in its own tier with Necos. There were like half a dozen solo Kohaku players at SBO last year. How many Melee people can you say play a bottom tier character and with that bottom tier character make it to the best 36 players in the entire world for Melee? I doubt one even comes close, let alone 5 or 6 of them.

Offline Yotsuyoru

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 11:47:55 AM »

Offline Ambix

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 11:55:03 AM »
Quick Action is the J key by default. Keyboard defaults are NM,. as ABCD and J as Q. There is a remapper for ReAct that works on MBAC too, but I don't have the link with me. A quick search should bring it up.

Also Melee is WAY more imbalanced than this game. I would argue Neco Arc vs any top tier character in this game is a far far better matchup than Pichu vs Fox. And Neco Arc is so bad it doesn't even get put on tier lists, or goes in its own tier with Necos. There were like half a dozen solo Kohaku players at SBO last year. How many Melee people can you say play a bottom tier character and with that bottom tier character make it to the best 36 players in the entire world for Melee? I doubt one even comes close, let alone 5 or 6 of them.

You'd be quite wrong.

For starters the best of the best in melee don't really have mains....they use everyone. it just depends on the level of play you're looking at.

Melee really isn't imbalanced because the teir list doesn't decide matches.....if that pichu / fox matchup happened with two people of equal technical skill and knowledge of the game you would be suprised how even it would be. Also the multi stock aspect of the game further balances it....you can't spam something 4 timesi n a row without it becoming predictable.

Obviously fox has certain advantages but it dosen't win you the match.....there is always something gay you can do in a given matchup.....a quick example would be pikachu and pichu can reverse tail spike the space animals during an edge guard and its insta-gimp with no hope of recovery.



another great exaple is luigi. Luigi is low tier simply because his recovery is terrible.....he has some extremely bitchin combos on the fast fallers and his n-air has such insane priority that you can break yourself out of being combo'd with it.

99% of the match-ups in this game are give and take.....its much more dependant on the player.



Fox != magneto




And i can name a few "best in the country" players known for low tier antics off the top of my head.

A guy named taj is arguably the best mewtwo in the world....he once took down a crew of 5 really good smashers by himself in a crew battle.

Dude named fumi is a yoshi player.....watching him double jump cancel is like poetry in motion.

There is a really solid bowser main named reflex in alabama or georgia......not best in the country but he's hands down one of the best regional players.

Another bowser main named gimpy fish is supposedly really good....never played him personally though.

Two guys in my old crew main low tiers (pikachu and mewtwo) and they're in the top 50 USA players easily. They both made it to bracketts at an international tournament series called FC where there were 200+ people in attendence and it had 3 rounds of pools plus the bracketts.

just to name a few......



EDIT:

Use this to remap your keys:
http://www.npshare.de/files/10926ac4/mpkeycfg.rar

From that Tech Support thread.

sweet jesus thank you.


EDIT2: what exactly is quick action used for besides grabbing?

And whatever the default command for the K key is seems to grab and parry too.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 12:03:13 PM by Ambix »

Offline Ultima66

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 12:20:25 PM »
:blah:
I am well aware of Melee's balance. And I stand by my point that MBAC is much more well balanced than Melee. RYU wins with Wara, there's a number of people who main Wara in the US and are good, Pulsr in the US is one of the best players and he plays WLen, a number of people both in Japan and US main solo Kohaku and win, Zar is among one of the best 5 US players probably maining Aoko and JeffreyManson is one of the best Japanese players with Aoko too. Denpa has won SBO and he calls Satsuki the worst character in the game. The fact is if two players had equal skill and one was playing Pichu and one was playing Fox, the Pichu player probably wouldn't want to be playing Pichu. There are lots of players who would play any character and win (I've seen Azen Mewtwo vs a Samus for example), but those players, given the choice, would NOT play a weaker character. In MBAC, there are several people playing low/bottom tier characters in SBO, and every one of them has a good chance of winning and becoming the single best player in the world (single best 2 person team for MBAC) for that given year. You take a matchup like Kubo Sion vs JeffreyManson Aoko, you can see either of them winning. You don't however expect taj to win against Ken Marth over 50% of the time.

I never said it was an imbalanced game, but MBAC is much more balanced than Melee for sure.

Quote
EDIT2: what exactly is quick action used for besides grabbing?

And whatever the default command for the K key is seems to grab and parry too.
K is Quick Action 2, it shields and grabs, but no one uses it because it's not a default button on an arcade layout and doesn't ever actually reduce button presses beyond how much Q itself would. Quick Action does the following:

5Q - Heat Activate
5Q while in Heat/BH - 5C
6/4Q - Throw
2Q - Dodge
Q while another attack is going on - 5A/2A/j.A if possible, maybe 6A if you're holding 6
j.Q - Nothing or j.C, I don't really remember, maybe it only gives j.C if you're in Heat/BH
J.6/4Q - Airthrow
j.6/4Q (not in airthrow range) - Shield
Q (while in block/hit stun and in MAX, held directions irrelevant) - Circuit Spark

Offline LordPangTong

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2009, 04:20:01 PM »
....whereas in brawl and other traditional 2-D fighters (or so i've heard) people who main low teirs or even PICK them in tournaments are an anomaly. I've heard horror stories about the marvel games and their teir lists.

MBAC =/= Marvel. Not all 2D fighters are weighed the same.

Though Kohaku is considered low tier, as Ultima said, low tier doesn't mean it's impossible to win. If you decide not to use Kohaku because of her placement on the tier list, then shame on you.
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Offline Abstract Nonsense

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2009, 07:55:28 PM »
Quote
If you decide not to use Kohaku because of her placement on the tier list, then shame on you.

After some thinking, Kohaku-solo may actually be friendlier to start with as well. Just because of the significant health advantage she gets over team maids. I still remember back when Fakeshakes could beast me with Kohaku.


Quote
Satsuki the worst character in the game

But...but that's not true!

 :emo:

Quote
99% of the match-ups in this game are give and take.....its much more dependant on the player.

Err...The tier gaps in melee are awful. They're like 3S level bad.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 08:05:17 PM by Gauthic Von B. Schönen »
[01:46] <@BNAK_OF_AFRIKA> would u get a foot job from mech hisui
[01:46] <MrTopHat> Depends, can the feet do anything
[01:46] <Coren> they have motor skates
[01:46] <MrTopHat> : |  [20:39] <Pfhor> I am going to murder all of you

Offline Ultima66

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2009, 09:07:38 PM »
Quote
Satsuki the worst character in the game

But...but that's not true!

 :emo:
Yeah, she's not, but at the same time she has pretty bad matchups, and to get that far you're going to have to play an extremely large number of those bad matchups.

And yeah Melee is about on the same level as 3s. There are a number of people who play really strong low tier characters, there is never a team that wins a major event (I'm talking actually WINNING an event that's as big as the entire US or Japan or bigger) without a top tier character that carries the team. Fubarduck's team at Arcadia UFO had a Hugo that won a few matches, but let's be honest, Fubarduck Chun Li carried that team. The Hugo could beat a weaker player, but when it came down to him playing against the other team's best player, it was pretty clear he couldn't win. Of course even "weaker player" in this sense is someone who is extremely good at the game.

I think it's especially clear in the way the games work. 3s is made so that there is always a way to win, as proven in the famous Daigo match. If Daigo picked up Sean, he could probably still beat almost anyone in the US, just like if the best Melee players that use a high or better tier character just pick up any bottom tier character they can probably beat most people. They choose not to in a tournament situation because it increases the chance they won't win. In MBAC it doesn't really matter, outside of bad matchups. You get good at the games themselves, and to a lesser extent the characters. Parrying means everything in 3s, just as dodging/rolling/wavedashing/dash/grab tricks in Melee, and those work with every character.

Besides, Solo Kohaku really isn't as bad as she's placed on tier lists. I think it's just mainly the fact that Maids are better, and Maids is already a weak character. If Maids were mid tier, Kohaku would go up to Mid/Low tier, and despite people seeing Maids as weak, Maids and Kohaku both have one of the strongest lockdowns in the game. Melty isn't a game where you're good because of knowing the system. There's very few universal quirks in the game, besides Shield/Dodge/Heat/Spark, and those are used infrequently and the game definitely doesn't revolve around them. Every character is good because every character has reasons to be good, not just the player gets incredibly good and wins because the opponent can never really hit them even if their character is bad like in Melee or 3s. Kohaku/Vakiha/Vsion are all "bad" characters, and those 3 have the strongest rushdowns and pressure in the game. They all suffer from poor defense and not many options if they're the ones being rushed down. Wlen is one of the 3 worst characters and she has a very strong mixup game, with her main problem being that her air attacks tend to lose to everyone else's air attacks. Warachia is also one of the 3 worst characters and the only thing really wrong with him is that his attacks extend his hitbox to a large degree making his attacks less safe than they really should be. Aoko is also one of the worst characters and she is by far the scariest character when you're far away from her and you can't find a way in really fast, because once she gets orbs out there's almost nothing safe any character can do to try to attack her without giving her a free combo.

There isn't a single character in MBAC that's just worse at stuff than any other character. There's really no motivation to play Roy over Marth besides just for the sake of playing that character in Melee, and the same applies for Ganondorf over Falcon. This also applies to 3s, where there's really no reason you'd want to play Sean because he's worse at everything than Ken, and I joke that Twelve SA3 is the strongest Super in the game because "when you use it, you don't have to play as Twelve any more." Solo Kohaku brings significant strengths that Maids don't have, and that's the only thing that comes close to what you have with Shotos in 3s or clones in Melee.

Offline Ambix

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2009, 01:01:47 PM »
Meh....you're right of course.

I just wanted to defend my baby ;_;

Offline Tonberry

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2009, 03:29:31 PM »
I've seen people abroad and in my own smash brothers melee crew win regional tournaments with bottom teirs like roy, pichu, and mewtwo.

What tournaments?  I still play Melee competitively and follow the scene but I can't remember the last time anyone won a regional in the US with low tiers.
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Offline Ambix

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Re: Looking for a bit of help...
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2009, 09:49:24 PM »
Off the top of my head....one or two tournaments in the tipped off and G4S series. They're both over in georgia.

Both attract players from as far as mississippi, virginia, and florida.

Iori went roy against chaddd's fox in the 3rd round of finals and he won at tipped off....i want to say 2?

I'd have to look back at the old tournament threads.