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Author Topic: Mixups  (Read 4379 times)

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Offline Funky-kun

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Mixups
« on: September 23, 2011, 11:34:51 AM »
As far as I know, the following kinds of mixups exist in MBAA:



1) HIGH-LOW

Overheads (VAkiha 6C, C-Ciel BE4B, Akiha instant j2C)

Charge Overheads Cancellable to Lows (C-Arc BE5B/2A, F-Ciel BE4B/236A)

Jump Ins - faking the high, airbackdash jC at the last moment (a la C-Satsuki), blocked jC into IAD jC (VAkiha)

Fuzzy Guard (Len, C-Mech, F-Akiha under pit, F-Arc & C-Ciel with meter)



2) POKE-THROW

Poke-Normal Throw (Miyako; Len and VSion in corner)
While poke-normal throw is not a real mixup for the majority of the cast, some characters can combo after normal throw, making it a "real" mixup. 1A+D OS should be effective against this.

Poke-Command Throw (H-Koha, F-Kouma, C-Wlen)



3) CROSSUP

Crossup Mixup (C/H-Len & H-Sion dodge mixup, WLen teleport shenanigans, C-Hisui & H-Akiha j2C)
If not under the cover of something like WLen's BE236A, shield should be effective against this.

Sandoori (F-Satsuki, F-Kouma, I've seen F-Ryougi do it)



Of course all these mixups are more effective if they are in the cover of something like a summon or delay attack, in order to discourage backdashing, DPing, shielding, thus severely limiting your opponent's options and forcing them to react to the mixup. In the case of C-Koha, a Cactus setup or a Johnny mixup even gives more than one shot at 50/50.

The other way to make mixups more ambiguous is to hide them under something that obscures the vision. E.g. F-Aoko's Blue Fire mixup, Koha's mixup from molotovs and Wara under a Nero summon.



With all this in mind, what is the most effective type of mixup in this game?

Common sense leads me to believe it should be sandoori, as it not only gives many options (left, right, high, command throw), but also renders DPs unreliable, as inputting them the wrong way can lead to disaster.



P.S. Please correct me if I'm overlooking something.
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Offline Greg

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 11:58:46 AM »
The kind that your opponent isn't expecting.
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Offline Synyster Spirit

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 11:59:39 AM »
The one that results with you hitting them.

Offline Funky-kun

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 12:28:29 PM »
This is what I'm trying to get at. Even if an opponent expects a good mixup, he should not be able to react visually, and therefore choose his course of blocking beforehand, turning the situation into a 50/50. (or better if there's more options)


I would imagine if two H-Len players of high skill play each other and one of them does the dodge mixup, the other one would easily read which option (crossup or no crossup) the opponent is trying to set up. So this mixup would rely on the opponent not knowing/expecting it.

However, if he does the fuzzy instead, there's no way of visually confirming if he's gonna go for the low or high, except nonhuman reflexes. It's all yomi then.

I might be hitting the friends I play with VAkiha 6C and IAD mixups most of the time, but even then with enough training they've become proficient at reacting to it visually. I believe high-skilled players would already have these reflexes, so these kinds of mixups lose effectiveness. I want your opinion on what kind of mixups do not suffer from this, as I have a rather limited player base to test with.
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 12:51:06 PM »
Mixups that aren't based around knowledge of XXXXX mixup in particular don't suffer from that.

Sandooris are good because even if a good player is playing, the super jump animation/sound can't be trusted--- the player can still simply just airdash back, or go through with a sandoori. If the sandoori is done extremely well, it's almost impossible to reliably react to. Most sandooris are done fairly slow though by what i've seen, making them 'reactable' since good players know to look for a second jump.

Any form of mixup that isn't reliant on some 'walking forward/backward' a little before hand will not work on knowledgable players-- so rely more on just mixups that rely on quick reactions. Extremely late airdash late to the ground or just land 2A is reliable for this very reason. While I can react, if you make me feel pressured/nervous by throwing in throws or overheads after a quick 2A after I strained my focus, I'm very vulnerable to being hit. Straight up unfair mixups in the game don't really follow what I consider to be this pattern though, like some corpse hop whichways that exist for some characters. These mixups and fuzzies are all about 100% guessing.

The key to using a mixup that is technically 'reactable' is to take advantage of the key human element. Mix up what you do and make it random, adding in throws, random overheads after the mixup, high/low mixup, etc. If you make them feel pressured, it will make even good players who can handle the mixup alone hestitate--- and that's really all you need.

This is in my opinion how Yuu[C-Sion] actually manages to land his overhead on really good players in jp, by conditioning them to his pressure first and many options, THEN throwing in the overhead. Sion's overhead is rather average in my opinion, and the negative factor makes it kinda ass if you're not good at instilling fear in your opponent first--- and even then it might not work in jp as shown by Yuu.

TL;DR: Even if a mixup is reactable, humans are on the other side of the controller. Take advantage of the many options your mixup gives you and rotate through each randomly and play well--- after a while if the mixup/character you're playing is good, the opponent will be scared and hesitate even if he has the reaction time.
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2011, 01:25:40 PM »
I want your opinion on what kind of mixups do not suffer from this, as I have a rather limited player base to test with.

None of the three you listed can qualify alone as the most effective.  F-Wara has instant overhead with ja and fast low with 2a.  However, not all high/low mixups are impossible to react to.  Any mixup where 2 or more options cannot be blocked on reaction(has to be 2 because with one you could hold the direction that you can't see on reaction then block the other direction on reaction.) is the most effective kind of mixup
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Offline Funky-kun

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2011, 01:32:50 PM »
Thank you for the replies.

Quote
The key to using a mixup that is technically 'reactable' is to take advantage of the key human element.

Indeed, playing against your opponent, rather than his character, is the way to victory.

Quote
Straight up unfair mixups in the game don't really follow what I consider to be this pattern though, like some corpse hop whichways that exist for some characters. These mixups and fuzzies are all about 100% guessing.

Care to list some examples?

Quote
Any mixup where 2 or more options cannot be blocked on reaction(has to be 2 because with one you could hold the direction that you can't see on reaction then block the other direction on reaction.) is the most effective kind of mixup

I had to rethink this to realize what you're saying, and it certainly makes sense. I have limited experience on the receiving side of mixups and this helps me better understand how to use them.
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Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 01:41:57 PM »
Also note that for a mix-up to remain effective you can't pick the same option every time. Unless of course you're training them to block a certain way so you can intentionally change it later.

Offline Rokunaya

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 02:06:25 PM »
Quote
Straight up unfair mixups in the game don't really follow what I consider to be this pattern though, like some corpse hop whichways that exist for some characters. These mixups and fuzzies are all about 100% guessing.

Care to list some examples?

Any fuzzy in the game, really really hard to see whichways[seen often in 1.05]. Or any sort of mixup that obstructs vision [F-Aoko 214C series, Wara hiding behind Nero, etc]

Also this doesn't really count as a mixup, but hkoha oki in the corner when she's dashing at you. You have to decide if she's going to cmdgrab or meaty you, and there's no way to know which beforehand, so it uses the same concept.

Most other mixups are 'reactable' in my opinion if the other opponent is focusing really hard, making them 'reactable' in the sense that it's really really hard just technically possible. [Which still makes for really good mixup]
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Offline Psylocke

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2011, 04:33:09 PM »
Corpse hop mixups are definitely reactable...  I wouldn't really call them guessing games.

In general, Melty okizeme is pretty slow so the only unreactable mixups are fuzzies.  Luckily fuzzies for the most part are very situational, but there are some characters like Len that get to do it for free.
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Offline Cristu

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2011, 05:21:01 PM »
Sandoori is good when your character can do it because it involves more options, but few characters can do it properly... So generally I would high-low are the most effective/safe mixups imo, because it's safer to do and harder to block, but not necessarily faking the jump in.. You can use 2 or 3 jump ins depending on the character so you can easely trick your opponent with this.. plus there is the overhead option.. So, let's say Arcueid..  She can do like j.CAB or ACB 2A or j.C 2A j.CB or AC 2A, if they suceed blocking after 2A you can 5B half charged 2B or 5B overhead 5B and still be on advantage... But I think that might be a question of style...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 05:23:55 PM by Cristu »
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2011, 05:21:29 PM »
well i say corpse hop because i dunno what to really call them, but it's like the new Nanaya 214A oki where he jumps really high while you're getting up and you can't tell what side he's on because of melty shenanigans. It's not corpse hopping, but the 'corpse' does make it extremely hard to tell if done right. Alot of annoying mixups are like that in 1.05 now, and i think almost all of them are dumb :/
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Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2011, 05:55:39 PM »
I believe what you guys are calling "corpse hops" can also be called an ambiguous crossup.

Offline Exciel

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2011, 07:51:28 PM »
Cross unders aren't big in this game but this is pretty damn unreactable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32aUwJBYM08#t=22m35s

Offline Tempered

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2011, 10:44:17 PM »
Cross unders aren't big in this game but this is pretty damn unreactable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32aUwJBYM08#t=22m35s

Technically that was a tech punish. He just happened to be walking forward, probably to position himself to 5b a forward or back tech, but just happened to walk under the neutral tech.
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Offline Exciel

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Re: Mixups
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2011, 11:56:15 PM »
Cross unders aren't big in this game but this is pretty damn unreactable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32aUwJBYM08#t=22m35s

Technically that was a tech punish. He just happened to be walking forward, probably to position himself to 5b a forward or back tech, but just happened to walk under the neutral tech.
Doh I forgot neutral tech isn't safe either. :toot: