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Author Topic: Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling  (Read 19459 times)

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Offline Numakie

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Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling
« on: August 29, 2007, 11:58:24 PM »
Update:
2007-08-20:11.11p : Changed the title to "Reverse Beat: Whiff Canceling" and changed the words in this post accordingly
2007-08-30: Changed the thread from "Jab Canceling" to "Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling"

Introduction

The Combo system of Melty Blood works in such a way that, provided that you are hitting the opponent, any normal hit can cancel into any normal hit.  (ex: A cancels to B, C cancels to A) On the same token, once you do a move, you can't repeat that move in a single string once you used it.  This applies to hitting the opponent whether he is blocking or not. 

There is a slight different to hitting an opponent that is not blocking and one that is blocking.  This will lead to 2 different kinds of options depending on the situation

If you manage to hit an opponent that is not blocking, you have the additional ability to "Jump Cancel", which means that you are able to cancel a normal move with a jump.  It is well known when doing air combos from any sweep to another normal hit, you can immediately jump up in the air for pursuit.  This is a basic concept of "Jump Canceling."  It also means that you can hit a standing opponent with a B and jump right after word.  Looking at this further, this brings along other options of "Counter Punishing', catching people in the air, or as other means of mix ups. 

Most of the time though, before you will be able to land that hit, the opponent will be blocking, and that will limit your options with the strings that you will be able to use against your opponent.  That means you will be strictly limited to canceling moves with a special move or waiting for something like a whiffed sweep to recover, which leave you screaming to the opponent "Hit me".  Looking back to the concept that any normal move can cancel to any normal move, if you are met with this situation of hitting a blocking opponent, you will want to whiff something that gives the least amount of recovery.  This leaves one possible option, the Jab A.

Whiff Canceling

Whiff Canceling refers to the use of whiffing a standing A in mid pressure against a blocking opponent.  The reason why standing A is a good option is because a majority of moves from ground encounters are done using crouching moves. In most cases, standing moves will not be used unless in the middle of a combo. This leaves the standing A an available option to recover quickly since it isn't used much otherwise. In a combo string against a blocking opponent, a standing A that is whiffed will bring you back to a neutral state quickly.  That means you can rush in and do every single one of your normal moves, then whiff an A, the do all your moves again.

This also give the player different options that are not available otherwise.  Any move that otherwise has an extreme recovery can have an A whiffed right after for a quick recovery. Sweeps can be spammed against a grounded opponent.   C's can be Whiff Canceled, only to follow up with another C. One can even throw an opponent after a Whiff Cancel, provided they are close enough to do so.  Also, Depending on the situation, other moves can be canceled into provide that they haven't been used yet in a single string

Drawbacks

While this concept may sound like a godsend at first, there are some drawbacks with Whiff Canceling.  First of all, a move can only be canceled if it actually connects against an opponent.  This means that a normal move like a laggy C attack that doesn't connect will be just that... a laggy C attack.  Whiff Canceling only assures that you can continue any pressure string used against an opponent.  It will not prevent an opponent from blocking, countering, or shielding you.  This concept is only considered as an additional means to use against an opponent.  Also, depending on the character, some normal moves cannot be Whiff Canceled, or have other specific follow ups, thus not allowing the option to Whiff Cancel.  Each character has its own use of this method, therefore using this tactic may take some experimenting or getting used to.

Conclusion

Aside from the drawbacks though, Whiff Canceling offers a solid option for recovering quickly in mid combo through the use of normal moves.  It lessens the chance of moves that scream "Hit me" from staying out longer then it should.  It is also universal from character to character, so each character has a means of using it in their own manner.  While the use of this tactic may not win all your matches, it does present as a tool against players of a higher caliber.  After all, the best way to attack or defend is to make sure that you are ready for it in the first place.

In closing, I'd like to say good luck on your matches. I hope this helps your gameplay.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 10:12:27 PM by Numakie »
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2007, 02:04:40 AM »
Random Tidbit: Satsuki's 214a(I think) is jump cancelable on block.  An exception to the rule.

While this does work for every character, some characters have other options for ending block strings at times.  It should be noted that any normal or special can be used, it just happens that 5a's are universally good.  2a's work great too but are usually used to start the string and thus are unavailable, as you sort of said.  Also, there are some normals that can't chain into any normal, for example Ciel's 5c will only chain into the 5c follow-up to the first 5c; You can't do 5c into 5a.  Also note that your 5a/2a is cancelable into shield on whiff in case your opponent baras something.  I haven't used this to good effect yet, its just theory at this point.

Information about reverse beat is also useful here as if you chain from a B or C attack to an A attack it will get the penalty.

After doing a whiffed A at the end of a block string, you can do a high priority poke, a dash grab, or a dash attack for a little mixup.  Some people like to jump away after the whiffed A so keep some anti jump away tactics in mind, which are mostly character specific.

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2007, 06:52:39 AM »
'Jab canceling'?

Don't you just mean reverse beat, guy?
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 08:53:31 AM »
'Jab canceling'?

Don't you just mean reverse beat, guy?

"Reverse Beat" is a form of Jargon to the MB community and is not something easily understood to the average person or someone who is new to the game, at least not at first.  The reason I call it "Jab Canceling" is because that's how I remembered it when I first observed it, and it is a lingo that most people can understand.   I, personally, didn't understand what Reverse Beating was until recently when Kyro explained the basics of it to me at Evo.  :P

This section will refined over time. In the mean time feel free to give any input, whether it be character specifics, exceptions to the rule, etc.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 08:55:44 AM by Numakie »
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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 09:37:02 AM »
I think you should drop 'jab canceling' and stick with reverse beat, because you may just confuse people further with your own jargon instead one that's officially part of the game. Just mention it as being a facet of reverse beat, because the way you describe it's made out to be something completley separate to RB's all together (which it's not). Go into further detail with reverse beat while you're at it.
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 10:09:41 AM »
I see your point about it being a variation of Reverse Beat. However from what i understand, Reverse Beats are only counted as Reverse Beats if they connect.  This type of canceling i am trying to point out doesn't end up connecting, and yet players do use it in gameplay.  Therefore, does whiffing A's in this manner really count as "Reverse Beat"?

If it doesnt, then what should it be called?

Just something to think about.  :P

Also, ill definitely make mention of Reverse beats the second round of this thing.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 10:13:06 AM by Numakie »
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Offline Chun (中)

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 10:22:16 AM »
I see your point about it being a variation of Reverse Beat. However from what i understand, Reverse Beats are only counted as Reverse Beats if they connect.

That isn't correct. If you even input a backwards heavy move (C to A in air without jc, for example), you suffer the damage scale rate.

Repeat offenses will extend the percentage lasting and overall damage scalling, but it will eventually revert to normal.

You can see it demonstrated in training by the damage.

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Offline WickedElement

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2007, 10:29:23 AM »
I see your point about it being a variation of Reverse Beat. However from what i understand, Reverse Beats are only counted as Reverse Beats if they connect.

That isn't correct. If you even input a backwards heavy move (C to A in air without jc, for example), you suffer the damage scale rate.

Repeat offenses will extend the percentage lasting and overall damage scalling, but it will eventually revert to normal.

You can see it demonstrated in training by the damage.

~Chun

He had the right idea, but I was discussing this with him and I answered(off the top of my head) incorrectly about RB's and so he put that instead, simply because he can't double check at the moment(at work).
So that was my mistake. After I actually checked, I realized I was wrong. So oops on my behalf.  :slowpoke:
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2007, 10:33:52 AM »
Does it really now.  :o  Guess ill need to further test it.

Oh well. im only human =P
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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2007, 10:35:23 AM »
I see your point about it being a variation of Reverse Beat. However from what i understand, Reverse Beats are only counted as Reverse Beats if they connect.  This type of canceling i am trying to point out doesn't end up connecting, and yet players do use it in gameplay.  Therefore, does whiffing A's in this manner really count as "Reverse Beat"?

If it doesnt, then what should it be called?

Just something to think about.  :P

Also, ill definitely make mention of Reverse beats the second round of this thing.

No, you're seriously just talking about reverse beats Numakie.

Doing 2ABC into 5A on block = Reverse beat.

Doing 2C into 5A on block = Reverse beat.

Doing ANY NORMAL (except 5A) (if I'm not mistaken) on block into 5A = reverse beat.

With Hisui for example, a simple sample is to run up and to do 2B on a blocking opponent, then immediately do 5A. It recovers quickly, and tends to be followed with dash throw. That's using reverse beat.

What you're refering to is the fact that you can cancel into any normal after a jab again, block or whiff (though in this case you're specifying it in block strings). That's why some Hisui players will do 6C in a block string, then jump and j.A and then j.C to quickly cover the space to continue her rushdown.

:P
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2007, 10:38:55 AM »
I see your point about it being a variation of Reverse Beat. However from what i understand, Reverse Beats are only counted as Reverse Beats if they connect.  This type of canceling i am trying to point out doesn't end up connecting, and yet players do use it in gameplay.  Therefore, does whiffing A's in this manner really count as "Reverse Beat"?

If it doesnt, then what should it be called?

Just something to think about.  :P

Also, ill definitely make mention of Reverse beats the second round of this thing.

No, you're seriously just talking about reverse beats Numakie.

Doing 2ABC into 5A on block = Reverse beat.

Doing 2C into 5A on block = Reverse beat.

Doing ANY NORMAL (except 5A) (if I'm not mistaken) on block into 5A = reverse beat.

With Hisui for example, a simple sample is to run up and to do 2B on a blocking opponent, then immediately do 5A. It recovers quickly, and tends to be followed with dash throw. That's using reverse beat.

What you're refering to is the fact that you can cancel into any normal after a jab again, block or whiff (though in this case you're specifying it in block strings). That's why some Hisui players will do 6C in a block string, then jump and j.A and then j.C to quickly cover the space to continue her rushdown.

:P

Self Pwnd :slowpoke:
Thanks for the correction.   :D
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Jab Canceling
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2007, 10:40:53 AM »
Uhm... Actually, the term I was accustomed to was, "Whiff Cancel", back when I used Shiki. The point of it, is to "whiff" your standing A, so the string you were using is now "cancelled"(Heh, see, get where the terminology comes from) so you can now use moves you already used in your block string again.

The reverse beat happens if the 5A actually connects, and then its no longer a whiff cancel anymore because you didn't whiff.

Which brings me to another point. If the person(whether due to standing while blocking, or dumb luck) happens to block the "jab cancel"(whiff cancel, whatever), you now no longer can use the 5A to cancel, and also your blockstring isn't canceled, therefore you have to stop there. May have been said millions of times in the 2 minutes it took me to post this, but I don't care.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 10:42:24 AM by AlmightyNam »

Offline Numakie

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2007, 11:06:22 AM »
Alrighty, Changed the title just now. ill need to do more revisions with this thread when i have time. (at work atm  :toot: )
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Offline linalys

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2007, 11:35:13 AM »
Reverse Beat:  Chaining from ANY normal into a "lighter/weaker/etc" normal.  5c to 5b to 5a.  6b 2a is reverse beat.  2c5b is a reverse beat.  Reverse beat is not limited to just A attacks!  As a result of doing a reverse beat, there's a reverse beat penalty of 22.5% proration the first time and another 22.5% the 2nd to max of 55% by the third time.  So that's 22.5 -> 45.1 -> 55%. There are probably some exceptions that I can't think off the top of my head at the moment.  Like WRen's 623a when chained into any normal is a Reverse Beat.  For whatever reason WRen's 4b seems immune to reverse beat penalty. 

Whiff Cancel: As Nam basically said.  Doing a chain and then ending with an A is a whiff cancel.  Can be done by any attack really but A's are universally the best. 

No one has used this term yet but I'll include it too. 

Whiff Chain:  This can only be done with A attacks as they're the only ones with the Free Cancel property in their recovery.   Basically you do a whiff cancel string but instead of letting the A finish you cancel the recovery into another move and continue the chain.  An example would be like Akiha 2aa5ca (whiff) 2c5bb air combo.  As this is a chain after the 5a you cannot use 5c again as it has already been used. 
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Offline Sp00ky

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2007, 04:49:54 PM »
Gotta go with Lina on this. What is being described by the OP is just whiff cancelling.

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2007, 04:53:18 PM »
But whiff canceling is still reverse beat, yes?

Shouldn't we continue to keep it as rb?

:P
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Offline Rei

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 06:49:48 PM »
whiff canceling is a more universal term in fighting games, it would be better to use than reverse beat. Reverse Beat is during a combo when you change to a weaker attack as linalys said. A reverse beat would be like V Akiha's 2a2a 2c 5bb getting the reverse beat on the 5bb. If you say it like that, people could get confused with that you're talking about, and as I said, Whiff canceling a weak attack is pretty universal throughout fighting games.
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2007, 06:55:25 PM »
But whiff canceling is still reverse beat, yes?

Shouldn't we continue to keep it as rb?

:P
No, its still whiff canceling. Just because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is.

Offline Choco

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 07:04:34 PM »
Reverse beat applies to many different situations, not just whiff canceling. This is whiff canceling.

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2007, 07:58:53 PM »
all in all using A is whiff canceling with reverse beat property, but we shall keep it as whiff canceling since its easier to imagine and easier to understand.. end of story.. though we are not denying the reverse beat fact  :V
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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2007, 08:28:51 PM »
Actually if you want to be technical, canceling a whiff (ie an empty 5A into 5B / 5C or shield) would be better off with that term. Ie you're canceling whiffs.

Simply using reverse beat in a block into 5A doesn't really constitute as a whiff cancel, but then I'm not Zaelar so I won't really anal about it any further.

Anything's better then JAB CANCELING.

 :emo:
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2007, 08:38:48 PM »
Actually if you want to be technical, canceling a whiff (ie an empty 5A into 5B / 5C or shield) would be better off with that term. Ie you're canceling whiffs.

Simply using reverse beat in a block into 5A doesn't really constitute as a whiff cancel, but then I'm not Zaelar so I won't really anal about it any further.

Anything's better then JAB CANCELING.

 :emo:
Agreed.

But still, its a whiff cancel. I think you misunderstand the usage. Whiff cancels were primarily used to cancel the move you are using with a whiffed 5A. The cancel is for A.) Giving you a better frame advantage because generally a whiffed 5A probably recovers faster than whatever move you just canceled. And B.) Break your blockstring, allowing you to use moves that were already blocked again.

I hope this helps.

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2007, 08:50:29 PM »
You're not whiffing a 5A. You're using reverse beat to reduce the recovery of your other normals in the block string before the 5A.

:P
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2007, 10:08:12 PM »
Alot of good arguments coming from here. However, Zaido does say this in the simpliest manner.

all in all using A is whiff canceling with reverse beat property, but we shall keep it as whiff canceling since its easier to imagine and easier to understand.. end of story.. though we are not denying the reverse beat fact  :V

And as for calling it either "Reverse Beat" or "Whiff canceling" Rei explains it best.

whiff canceling is a more universal term in fighting games, it would be better to use than reverse beat... If you say... (Reverse Beat)...  like that, people could get confused with that you're talking about...

Mind that when I was making this thread, I kept in mind some random person who is interested in the game but doesn't quite know the game specifics.  Ticking, for example, is something that any random person wouldn't know unless someone really explained that ticking is a means of trapping the opponent into a throw by means of poke stuns, getting them on wake up, or other means.  Otherwise, it would be just throwing the guy. And besides, in this instance, between Reverse Beat and Whiff canceling, a larger percentage of people would know what whiff canceling is. Only we (meaning us who play the game seriously) would understand Reverse Beating.

Therefore, I'll refer to this tactic as "Whiff Canceling", since it is more easily understood to the masses.

Also, i changed the title of the thread and edited the first post accordingly. Thanks for your input.

More updates to this thread when i have the time.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 10:14:05 PM by Numakie »
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Offline linalys

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Re: Reverse Beat: Jab Canceling
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2007, 12:22:09 AM »
Actually if you want to be technical, canceling a whiff (ie an empty 5A into 5B / 5C or shield) would be better off with that term. Ie you're canceling whiffs.

This statement is why I included my definition of Whiff Chain.  I knew someone would somehow bring it into this discussion.  A whiffed 5a into anything is a whiff chain.  Whiff Cancel is pretty much just used to describe canceling the recovery of some slow attack into the faster A attack recovery. 
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